The Von Lenk Guncotton Cartridge for the M1854 Lorenz

The first smokeless powder rifle might have been the Austrian M1854 Lorenz rifle musket, instead of the famous French1886 Lebel. Unfortunately for the Austrians, the chemical process for making smokeless guncotton cartridges were not quite up to the challenge in the early 1860s. It’s still a fascinating story! Baron von Lenk and the 15-year Austrian experimental development of smokeless guncotton ammunition is an incredible tale of what (almost) might have been.

[@iskandartaib]

It might be worth mentioning how modern nitrocellulose smokeless powder is made. The guncotton is essentially dissolved in a solvent and either extruded through a die into strands and left as strands in the case of the British Cordite, or cut into pellets in the case of DuPont style IMR powders (or really large, perforated pellets in the case of cannon propellant), formed into spheres of uniform size in the case of Winchester's Ball Powder, or into flakes in the case of fast-burning pistol powders or European-style rifle propellants. Burning rate is adjusted by controlling the size and surface area of the grains. During this process all the acids are neutralized or washed out of the nitrocellulose, making the powder a great deal more stable. I guess, in the end, leaving the guncotton as "cotton" was an early, evolutionary stage.

[@chuckaddison5134]

I would add that a burning deterrent, which, iirc was graphite is added to the nitrocelluose to prevent detonation. This also hold true for double and later triple base powders.

[@loquat44-40]

​@@chuckaddison5134 and iskandartaib have stated exactly what the problem was. Lenk was a long way from a useable powder. Single cotton fibers are extremely likely to go off once they dry. I have heard of field mice getting into a building used in the manufacture of smokeless powder and building nests out of raw nitrocellulose fibers. The early french products still were not safe. Things like static electricity are issues even to this very day with any flammable substances. With time improvements were made and below is the composition of later cordite products and one can see it was a double base powder and was stable enough it seems for tropical climates. Cordite (Mk I) and Cordite MD The composition of cordite was changed to 65% guncotton, 30% nitroglycerin (keeping 5% petroleum jelly), and 0.8% acetone shortly after the end of the Second Boer War.

[@TenaciousTrilobite]

Wow, I had no idea! Massive respect to von Lenk for sticking to his guncotton experiments and coming up with something relatively practical decades ahead of the curve. I wonder if he would've had more success if he had focused more on the early cartridge revolvers being made in Europe around that time before applying it to infantry rifles

[@EthanKraemer-qp7vy]

Yoooo, you gotta do a g43 review

[@TenaciousTrilobite]

@@EthanKraemer-qp7vy I’d love to, but I’m not sure I can afford one

[@EthanKraemer-qp7vy]

Money is temporary, g43 is forever

[@felixthecat265]

The problem with nitrating cotton turned out to be the hollow nature of the cotton fibre. Regardless of how long you washed it, acid could hide within cavities in the fibre and create spontaneous ignition. Dewar and Abel at the Woolwich Arsenal finally worked out how to make safe guncotton by using paper making machinery to pulp the cotton fibre and drive out the acid. UK used guncotton as a detonating explosive for sea mines and torpedoes very early on as it was not affected by damp. Schultz used granulated wood chips as the basis of an early smokeless shotgun powder. Poudre B was not without it's problems as would also spontaneously ignite under certain circumstances. The biggest underlying issue with nitro based explosives and propellants is that when the nitro compounds break down, the breakdown products act like a catalyst leading to further breakdown and eventually a runaway reaction. This is true for both single and double base propellants, both of which need to have stabilisers such as carbamite to neutralise the breakdown products. The Able Heat test is used to determine how much stabiliser remains in a propellent and estimate its remaining shelf life. As a rough test, one of the breakdown products smells like vinegar, so if you ever open a can of propellent and it smells like that, either burn it or put it on the roses..

[@allangibson8494]

And then the Australians in 1909 took the cotton out and just used straight wood pulp based paper to make nitrocellulose (they had lots of wood but no locally available cotton)

[@myparceltape1169]

I had been wondering if it would be necessary to go through the process to convert cotton to primary acetate first. Mechanical means seems enough, then.

[@thejohhny2943]

A cartridge like that would've been very well suited to work with something like the Kammerlader to prevent the issue of double loading.

[@Guntank214]

I was thinking the same thing, though my first thought was the Lindner system rather than Kammerlader, though the basic idea is the same.

[@erikschultz7166]

I immediately thought of the Dreyse Needle Gun

[@egonkattnig6551]

Thank you for your profound and extremely interesting, well researched story. Being an Austian and very interested in zhe history of my country I am most thankful ! Please carry on!

[@astridvallati4762]

At the 1860s Fort Lytton, at Brisbane, Guncotton charges were stored Under Water, for safety; the Guns were RMLs,Disappearing guns, using Lead Based bourollets to give gas seal, and Rifling engagement.

[@papercartridges6705]

The War Department chemist (Abel) developed a better guncotton in the late 1860s and he said to store it underwater, where it was perfectly safe. That’s easier to do at a fortress where the guns are permanently fixed, but not that east for small arms ammo!

[@felixthecat265]

@@papercartridges6705 Ah No! Wet guncotton was used as a detonating explosive and was primarily used for sea mines, In the case of Fort Lytton, I think these were command mines fired from a shore station. Wet guncotton is absolutely not "perfectly safe" it is in the same explosive class as dynamite and TNT. UK was still using stocks of wet guncotton slabs for demolition work up to the early 70s. One of the jobs in ammunition depots was to check and top up the cans holding the slabs with water. We also used dry guncotton slabs as detonator boosters whilst we continued using nitro-glycerine based plastic explosives. They were finally phased out when we shifted to RDX based plastic explosives in the 1980s.

[@titanscerw]

Yes please do a video 17:35 on Lenk system guncotton artillery experiments.

[@gonatas1]

Would love to hear more, whether directly small arms related or not. 19th century military technology is a wonderfully obscure subject that could use illumination past the usual cliches.

[@shanerogers24]

I've seen reference to the Royal Navy having developed a gun cotton with steel shot charge for the 68pdr smoothbore developed specifically as a 'special' for punching through heavy armor (usually the Warrior Target 4.5" wrought iron on 18" of teak). There was never any specific need for it, and being too expensive/risky for general use, the charge was never issued or saw service beyond the Woolwich ranges. The existence of this charge, its exact status, practicality and effect is a staple of the better Monitor Vs Warrior internet debates :)

[@aggie070690]

Watching this video while my bf is watching it in the living room, he’s a gun history enthusiast 😊 but just gotta comment because I didn’t seem anyone else comment it, when I first saw the gun cotton, I immediately thought “They made a tampon for a gun” 😅 great video, very interesting!

[@papercartridges6705]

Yea they are the forbidden spicy musket tampons. No smoking.

[@panzerdeal8727]

Yes, please. Bring up the Artillery video.

[@erikschultz7166]

But the Austrians had a smokeless rifle well before. They adopted an effective air rifle in 1780 with a 22 ball reservoir and a 30 round air chamber. The range was similar to the range of smooth bore musket. Extremely expensive.

[@commonwealthminuteman5630]

that is a weapon of mass destruction, there is no reason they needed to hold all 30 rounds.

[@downandout992]

The American explorers Lewis and Clark brought Girardoni air rifles with them on their Journey across North America in 1804.

[@robertb6768]

Would have been massively outranged by the rifles of later eras.

[@guaporeturns9472]

Not a smokeless powder.. a powderless propellant.. air.

[@jic1]

@@guaporeturns9472 Also, not the first air rifle.

[@MicahRibbentrop]

Another historic firearms channel for me to binge, joyous day

[@allanburt5250]

Much appreciated bringing this to us, brilliant

[@Comrade_Bread]

If a gun with guncotten explodes as if it were a grenade, then a cannon with guncotten probably was their version of bombs lmao

[@scottfoster9452]

Wow this presentation is so fascinating! Bravo and thank you. 👏

[@rebelscumspeedshop]

Its good to see your membership growing.

[@bpm990d]

Very interesting, I learned a few new things. Your channel continues to deliver high quality content.

[@josephgonzales4802]

Facinating! That is one of the many things I like about this hobby. Always learning something new. 👍😁

[@browngreen933]

I like how you prop the gun up so we can see it, instead of laying it flat like other channels do. Subscribed.

[@TheAlchimist007]

Thank you for this video and your work including Austrian military history. I very appreciate it

[@Adirondneck]

Awesome content, had a very good flow to it.

[@wrxs1781]

Good video, never knew to much about the subject until today.

[@BadWaterMotors]

Such an interesting story, thanks! Learned a lot

[@kevkev5935]

This was some amazing information. Great work on this content.

[@maxasaurus3008]

Wow, it’s been a while since we used to march all over Southern California in Company E, Harts Engineers. You look great buddy hope everything goes well! ❤

[@falc6125]

Damn. This video make my day far better.

[@torchofkckch.2928]

Love to see the gun cotton artillery video. Thanks for sharing

[@secondhandlyon2603]

I'm glad Charlie Brown's teacher found a new job.

[@papercartridges6705]

Who knew they knew so much about Austrian muskets this whole time.

[@maxpower6765]

Fascinating subject. Thanks

[@barry7608]

A very enjoyable, informative and detailed discussion, very well presented, thanks. I'll subscribe.

[@blackpowderfirearmenthusia3194]

Great video sir, thank you.

[@chrisbowman2030]

Great View on history!

[@robertsantamaria6857]

A like for the Lorenz, the almost super-weapon. The widespread adoption of the von Lenk cartridge wouldn't just prevent a united Germany under Prussia, it would also likely prevent the formation of a unified Italy. Such a fun alternate history path.

[@myparceltape1169]

If the Prussians knew of a long range rifle they would probably have chosen different ground to fight on to negate that range advantage.

[@imgvillasrc1608]

The advantage of the Dreyse over the Lorenz was not the reason why the Prussians won, but the bold and genius use of industrial technology and Prussian leadership. The Franco-Prussian War should be an example of how a technological edge does not equate to an automatic win.

[@andyedwards9222]

That was a fascinating video about something I was previously unaware.

[@arthurbenavidez3090]

Love your Videos Captain! I loved that intro sequence very funny 😂 Keep having fun and never stop what you love 😁🇺🇸 -Benny

[@daniellively1128]

Really like the videos you make I wish you great success. Even with all the over saturation now adays on KZbin, keeps me hooked with all the information you provide

[@papercartridges6705]

Glad you like them and thanks for the encouragement!

[@greglaroche1753]

Very interesting. Thanks.

[@carlinglin7289]

Very interesting story. The what-ifs are fascinating.

[@paulharding1621]

I’m new to your channel, absolutely fascinating, definitely need to go through your content.

[@Teljar25]

"That better not be Austrian marching music." That is funny.

[@corystreat7605]

Very informative

[@thatsthewayitgoes9]

Thank you

[@eco-beehive]

Very good. Thank you

[@normanbowstead3616]

That was a brilliant broadcast. Really got the old grey matter working.👍😜

[@sinisterthoughts2896]

A man ahead of his time.

[@TMFShooting]

Great Stuff 💯 Thank you for Sharing 💥💥💥💥💥💥

[@warwolf416]

What a fantastic topic to listen too! The experimentation of firearms technology in this period is always fascinating to hear about. I do like the what if’s and makes me wonder what could have been made from it! As a side note I’ve been interested in the US model 1841 recently and was curious if you knew anything on the cartridges used for that. I’m under the impression that they still used a patched ball for it originally and was wondering how that worked.

[@RichardGoth]

Fascinaing!

[@davefellhoelter1343]

Now "I WANT ONE!" I Did Not Know! THANK You!

[@thisaccountisntreal107]

always interesting to hear about the other technologies that never caught on

[@r.fusterman1660]

Frightfully informative presentation. And the "patented Othais grunt" really does deserve a more prominent place in gun-nerd culture. Good on ya for promoting it.

[@TiglathPileser3]

I would love more on Gun Cotton artillery. I would love some information on Samuel Joannes Pauly's 1812 cartridge invention, and the connection to Casimir Lefaucheux and Johann Nikolaus von Dreyse. Napoleon Bonepart could have fielded centerfire cartridge rifles...maybe.

[@bmobert]

Excellent info excellently presented. Subsciption earned! As a separate note, ive been working on an alternate timeline since 2014. My work.has stalled recently but this data gives many interesting consequences to what i already have! Ill be doing more research and greatly appreciate the nudge. Much appreciated.

[@VinsPol247]

YES ARTILLERY AND GUN COTTON VIDEO...PLEASE.

[@milsurpmarine8628]

Another great video… thanks Brett. I’m curious to know if Paul Vielle, the Frenchman who invented “Poudre B, the first practical smokeless powder, used any of Lenk’s data. Did Vielle continue what Lenk started or did he create Poudre B completely independently?

[@papercartridges6705]

Not really. Lenk was the first significant effort towards getting widespread adoption of nitrocellulose but his system of using raw guncotton woven in strands was pretty primitive. In the late 1860s the British made experiments (led by Abel, who would later “invent” cordite”) in dissolving guncotton in various alcohols and then molding it into shapes to regulate burn speed. By the 1870s it was understood that dissolved nitrocellulose was where the answer would be found, not in Lenk’s process.

[@stephensands3485]

Awesome video! Never knew that gun cotton was used in a rifle

[@nothim7321]

You absolutely should do the gun cotton artillery video

[@Maximus-jp8zy]

gun cotton artillery would be a fascinating subject for a video!

[@silentseawolf]

very cool

[@amitaimedan]

I didnt know that, very interesting. Please makr more videos.

[@ConcealedCourier]

"This guy wasn't a mad scientist." Dude, you just described every mad scientist in anime.😆

[@forcea1454]

A video on Austrian guncotton Artillery sounds interesting.

[@duncanandrews1940]

Thanks so much for this video Brett, very enlightening. I have been to Solfarino and to the Museum there - very interesting indeed.

[@MADmosche]

I would love to see a video about the guncotton artillery!

[@aker1993]

I really love the another types of this video about compress black powder in used during the late 19th century how they manage to increase the burn rate of the black powder after the invention of the smokeless powder in 1884.

[@Jagdtyger2A]

A video about the Austrian gun cotton artillery would be very welcome to watch

[@glueguzzler9548]

The artillery video would be really interesting!

[@rex8255]

Re. how gun cotton was discovered... all of the education and science that goes into chemistry, and EVERY discovery I read about has an element of "oops" to it. Post It Note? The guy that discovered the adhesive that made them possible was actually looking for a super strong adhesive.

[@vicroc4]

The story about the spill and apron is almost certainly apocryphal. What is generally thought to have happened was that Schönbein was attempting to dissolve strips of cotton in a nitric/sulfuric acid mixture, perhaps following up on the experiments of Braconet and hoping to get a material that was more easily formed. When the cotton refused to dissolve, he did something he would've known was a mistake if he hadn't been so frustrated and left the cotton to dry near an open flame. This had the expected flammable result and alerted him to the fact that he'd discovered a reliable process for producing nitrated cellulose.

[@lucasmatiasdelaguilamacdon7798]

A very interesting thing to consider is how inportant nitrate in general is, and most inportantly, how to get it. The largest mineral nitrate, saltpeter, producer in the world to this day is India, and Indian saltpeter is obviously in 1862 controlled by the British Raj. The race to develop guncotton was in a way an attempt to bypass the British quasi Monopoly on saltpeter. Other sources of saltpeter existed, like eventually the Atacama desert, but instead of developing new mining operations, which was expensive, risky, and still not enough to match British production, what most military powers did was switch to guncotton.

[@verdedenim662]

Fascinating subject! I thought you did an excellent job of covering this. If there are any working examples of gun cotton rounds that work it would be great to see a couple of them fired.

[@papercartridges6705]

I made another video where I shoot the guncotton cartridges, just search for it on my channel and you’ll find it!

[@johndougan6129]

"...turns the rifle into a grenade..." made me laugh😂

[@CameronMcCreary]

Wait one second, or minute, where's the Schützenfest? I came to see how these cartridges worked in the rifle. Yes, I did enjoy the history on guncotton but wanted to see some sample shooting also.

[@robertmills8640]

I like your alternate history take on Konigsgrat

[@pauldockins9635]

Most interesting

[@Jagdtyger2A]

I definitely would love a video on the gun cotton artillery, as my eyes make reading up on it painful

[@Derna1804]

Austria also fielded a breech-loading, tube-fed repeating air rifle in 1780. The Girardoni Rifle. It required manufacturing air-tight reservoirs with a check valve and a threading, to attach the air reservoir buttstock to the upper assembly. For the early industrial period, without a complex machine tool industry, it was slow and expensive to manufacture, to put it lightly. The rifle overcame the problem of ramming a wadded round down the muzzle by breech loading, but the air reservoirs could not be safely used at pressures to match the velocity of black powder rifles. The minie ball effectively made the concept obsolete, but the rifle had long since been abandoned, leaving service at the end of the Napoleonic Wars. One thing to keep in mind about the Austrian army is that much of its history was spent in constant border wars with the Ottoman Empire and unofficial raids and counter-raids between subjects of both empires. Austria therefore fielded a large number of light troops like grenzers and hajduks, and had a special interest in weapons for skirmish fighting.

[@vicroc4]

IIRC the Lewis and Clark expedition had a pair of Girandoni air rifles that they would demonstrate to the Native American tribes they came across.

[@kwaffen9070]

Very entertaining.

[@BrochachoEnchilada]

Came for the info, stayed for the intro humor

[@davidstuck2866]

I would love to hear about those exploding artillery shells! i know that that is "old tech" compared to today. but it would still be nice to learn about.

[@Jagdtyger2A]

I read years ago somewhere that gun cotton that had been highly compressed had a slower burning rate than the loseer or medium compressed charges, rendering it safe to be used in firearms

[@vicroc4]

Hm. I'm not entirely sure. At least with modern powders, compressed charges can show dangerous pressure spikes. Which indicates the burn rate is also spiking. On the other hand, a half-full cartridge can also have dangerous pressure spikes. Mostly down to the position of the powder in relation to the primer, and how much powder gets ignited at once.

[@edgeyt1]

17:13 definitely would like you to do a video about this.

[@tedarcher9120]

Pair that with semi-automatic priming system and you have a crazy fast firing muzzleloader

[@fortusvictus8297]

I remember a chemistry class once where we made guncotton and then tested volatility. The test I remember the most was simply striking a piece with a hammer and seeing the smoke and hearing the pop. I was like "Why would ANYONE carry this around?!"

[@gussie88bunny]

"....borrow Othias' patented grunt ...." hah, dude, such a nice little in-joke, so good. Fun informative video too, well done and thank you. Gus.

[@ZombieWilfred]

"The Forbidden Lolly Pop" 😂

[@caesar4880]

I would actually like to see some fireable examples but that would be really dangerious. I do not know if the specs that modern muzzleloaders are up to it or not. Would be a cool experiment if you or someone else can do it safely and remotely perhaps.

[@papercartridges6705]

I’m working on some guncotton cartridges, and have an old Italian repro musket barrel which we can sandbag down on the shooting bench and fire with a firecracker fuze. If that is successful, I might try shooting a couple from the shoulder… but for safety they will be much weaker strength cartridges than the Lenk 1862 ones. Not taking any chances!

[@iamAwesomo1994]

The Austrians with smokeless gun cotton artillery would have been quite formidable. They would have had much longer range with better penetration. Velocity makes a huge difference.

[@gernotbeaumont5816]

Actually the first use of smokeless powder happened in autumn 1848 in Vienna when the revolutionaries lacked gunpowder. They pressganged chemists in the besieged Vienna into manufacturing guncotton cartridges. Some revolutionary shootists blew themselves up and at least one chemist was gravely injured. The guncotton was rather unstable, nevertheless the gouvernment troups entering Vienna noticed "smokeless" guns on the opposite side. And this stimulated von Lenk in this research. Ramming down guncotton could get you a ramrod in the face, sometimes rifles turned in to grenades. It was not the last time when smokeless powder was used, revolutionaries in Dresden 1849 and in Paris tried it too.

[@therainbowgulag.]

Please make video on Austrian artillery using gun cotton. Tnx.

[@scinanisern9845]

Heh... Gun Cotton. Yah, it was good. Real good. Problem was it was sometimes TOO good. I guess you could rate it as a class two explosive. Usually went off as a class one, like Black Powder. Sometimes though, it went off as a class three like Nitro Glycerin. This tends to be very bad for the cannon involved, and its crew. The crew nearby. The crew far away even. Very distracting. At one point billiard balls were made from it as it created such a nice, smooth, round ball perfect for pool when mixed with camphor and alcohol. This led to random explosions of pool tables as well when a player would punch a ball with an energetic hit. You see, its made out of cotton. Cotton is hollow. The mixture of Nitric Acid used to make it, also included Sulfuric Acid as a catalyst. Because cotton is hollow, the center of the cotton was unable to be washed free from the last of the sulfuric acid residue. This tended to create an environment in which the Gun Cotton would be irritated by the acid and at some point could go off spontaneously as a class three nitro explosion. It wasn't until modern technology was able to chop the cotton strands into extremely tiny donuts that we were able to wash it well enough to be acid free and stabilize the gun cotton enough to use on modern weapons.

[@frankeasterling3402]

I wonder what Von Lenk could have done with some Sharps breach loaders?

[@thebotrchap]

Excellent video sir 🫡 What is the paper strip under the base of the bullet for?

[@papercartridges6705]

I really don’t know. They did it in the originals, probably to paste the guncotton outer woven cover physically to the lead bullet and keep it from sliding off the stick, but I don’t know that for certain.

[@Jagdtyger2A]

How about a semi "steam punk" alternative history video with needle fire gun cotton rounds based on the Lorenz cartridge used by the Confederacy. A needle fire Enfield/Springfield conversion along the 1869 Carcano

[@joearledge1]

Great video, I'd definitely love to hear more on gun cotton. I'm not sure how much you follow Othias and May these days, but based on stuff they said on their podcast and show, they're probably going to be doing some arms that are more in your wheelhouse soon. If you're interested in helping or some kind of collaboration, I'm sure they'd love to hear from you and at least talk about buying some of your products for future episodes. If not thats ok too. Just thought I'd mention it just in case. Anyway, keep up the good work Sir.

[@robertrobert7924]

Very interesting story. I wonder why some modern smokeless powders are so dirty? A good example is Unique brand that I use to load .38 LC, 44-40 WCF, and .45 LC.

[@vicroc4]

Modern powders have a lot of additives over and above the nitrocellulose. For example, most modern powders are double-based, using nitroglycerine as well as nitrocellulose. They also use chemical burn rate moderators that can leave residue.

[@robertrobert7924]

@@vicroc4 Thank you for this information.

[@VERDIENSTORDEN]

Could you list some sources I’m very intrigued about 19th century German/Austrian history

[@Ebolson1019]

was in gettysburg last weekend, must have walked right past you

[@papercartridges6705]

If you walked down Baltimore Street you did.

[@Ebolson1019]

@@papercartridges6705 multiple times, got a hardee hat at Dirty Billy’s and stopped by Maryland Sutler.

[@andypanda4927]

IIRC, the Royal Navy were trying to use gun cotton and had encountered the same issues of this instability. Worse than using mercury culminate for primers as a guess.

[@myparceltape1169]

A microscopic drop of Sulphuric Acid burns through many pages of a notebook.