The Wangrod Defense | Running the Game

[@polrua]

"It's not my fault. I'm just playing my character." "This is a character You Created."

[@CapnJigglypuff]

"Make a new character."

[@Kebutor]

Liam O'Brien's defense for Vaxil'Dan

[@mkvk74]

​@Beep Boop There's a difference between a character with an evil alignment and the "toxic character" that this video is about. But semantics aside, in my personal experience it's slightly more complicated then you're suggesting. You're assuming that the toxicity/evilness is very clearly communicated in session zero and it is being accepted or embraced. I don't think that's what we're talking about here. If it is and everybody is on board it can work. It's probably true that rejecting toxicity shows a need to play in a safe space. Fine, I think it is very reasonable to have the players be in a safe space, especially when the characters aren't. It's certainly has got nothing to do with a desire to not have a realistic campaign (I'm not sure if realism is the right word, but i think I get your intention); characters get away with being toxic because the players are playing a cooperative game together. Realistically the other characters would just not stick with the toxic one, or worse. I've been in a few games a long time ago where the reaction to character turning his "evilness" on the other pc's was "realistic" and that devolved into an exercise in PVP really quickly. That's all well and good if that's how you all (including the DM) want to spend your evening but basic reality is that you're all there to have fun together and if something is messing that up there needs to be a conversation on what kind of game and characters everyone can enjoy, if any.

[@davos6129]

@@Kebutor No. Just no. Vax would pull pranks on his friends, especially his sister and Grog, but he did so knowing that Laura and Travis thought it was funny as well and knowing that Vex and Grog would eventually get their revenge on Vax. If Liam would've had even the slightest feeling that his actions made anyone at the table uncomfortable, he would've stopped that behavior immediately and talked to his friends.

[@shaodyn]

@@CapnJigglypuff "A meteor comes out of nowhere and lands on top of you, leaving a sizable crater and no trace of you whatsoever."

[@jordanvanness]

My natural response to "I'm going to steal from the party because it's what my character would do" is just "well, if you do that we're going to kick your character out of the party because that's what our characters would do". Of course having *planned* party conflict is no problem, but lone wolf party conflict should be responded to like a party would respond to a lone wolf. Don't play a character that wouldn't actually work as part of a group unless you've talked about it with your group (or even just your DM in some situations) and they're on board.

[@Oddmanoutre]

If someone says that they don't care if the party kicks them out, because "I'm a lone wolf", feel free to remind them that lone wolves in the wild have a very low survival rate. You can elaborate that this is because wolves are trained *from birth* to work as a pack, or simply point out that when wolves expel one of their own, they inflict enough damage on them to keep them from ever bothering the pack again.

[@nickwilliams8302]

​@@Oddmanoutre​ It's more basic than that: the game follows the adventures of the party. PCs are, by definition, party members. Your character gets kicked out of the party, _they aren't a PC anymore._ Bet the "lone wolf" cares now.

[@torin725]

Exactly! Your just not in the story anymore. And if your not in the story, your not in the game.... make a new character and try again.

[@concibar4267]

Exactly. Stealing from the medieval equivalent of a SWAT-team in a place without law always struck me as rather short-sighted.

[@Kajiyaification]

@@torin725 make a new character? more like find a new group

[@Ric1b]

Was I the only one who was expecting a video about the heroic defense of the city of Wangrod?

[@sirquestgiver8550]

Pronounced Wan-grod of course

[@trashpanda5869]

Sir Quest Giver honesty assumed that for a second.

[@barbarianater]

I thought it was a chess maneveur he was gonna incorporate into DnD

[@trioofone8911]

Lol

[@Soitisisit]

no. c:

[@TheCanadianLemur]

I like to call it "The Character Nuremberg Defense". "It's not my fault, your honor. I'm just doing what -I was told- my character would do"

[@TrueMaskGames]

That's...absolutely amazing. Definitely going to steal that!

[@Kilakro]

I'm glad that it wasn't just me that thought that. I think I've explained the Nuremberg Defense to almost all of my friends, funny because I'm not the history buff.

[@stuffinaboxguy]

I'm told commenting improves KZbin metrics. So here it goes: Good job Matt. Keep videoing.

[@paulcrosslin6011]

Keep On Keepin On!

[@paulcrosslin6011]

See Ya When I'm Looking Atcha!

[@paulcrosslin6011]

Strawberry Poppies Forevah ...

[@paulcrosslin6011]

I hope that helped =)

[@RagingOwlbear]

It’s all about the “social contract” (I.e. - don’t be a d!ck). ragingowlbear.blogspot.com/2018/08/gm-101-problems-players-and-social-contract.html

[@cosmic-fortytwo]

Toxic player steals the cleric’s holy symbol. Next combat... toxic player says, “quick! heal me! I’m down to 1 hit point!” Cleric: Sorry, too busy fighting monsters.

[@audreyseddon9749]

Sorceror sets fire to a bridge to prevent party from being overtaken, before all party members have crossed it. After everyone is pulled out of the river the Cleric says "I'm not healing stupid people any more!"

[@glich6035]

Audrey Seddon but then they die next combat with the rest of the party😁

[@Baiswith]

@@Fruitbat-tb3lg Even better would be... Thief: I steal the cleric's symbol GM: Fine, roll Thief: Success! GM: Lightning strikes you out of nowhere - cleric, roll (number of thefts)d6 damage - (god/dess) does not approve, you should probably return the symbol to its owner

[@SuperHatsworth]

Cleric: "I would but I seem to be missing my holy symbol."

[@russelldixon4423]

@@Fruitbat-tb3lg the god could just curse the theif the moment they steal the cleric's holy symbol.

[@marcusclaudius266]

"I'm playing my character, too!" (Casts Sleep on the rogue)(Coup-de-graces the rogue)

[@texteel]

finally someone

[@SidneyGutteridge]

Looool

[@oz_jones]

_LG Paladin cuts off dominant hand_

[@TheYashakage]

"That's the video folks" _only 70% of the video is completed_

[@maqusan22]

Wadsworth constant, inverted.

[@westofley]

I love him for this. He tells you when the information you were here for is done, and then spends the rest of the video talking about stuff that people who aren't subscribed wouldn't care about

[@shawngillogly6873]

Only one who is a River to his people can truly change the wangrod. True story, one game, back in those halycon days of 1st edition AD&D, a DM who had enough of his party's wangrod conflict had me (Mr I always play a LG Ranger or Paladin), bring an assassin to the table...guess who my contract was on?

[@dave1411]

....I want to hear the rest of this story

[@actually_a_catt]

@@dave1411 same ahahaha

[@Arisorio]

"Well i'm just playing my character!" "Well then play a different character."

[@perryholley6005]

This. A thousand times this.

[@Arisorio]

@Beep Boop Usually if the situation comes up, where the wangrod defense is used, there was likely insufficient communication before. If a session 0 was had and everybody knows what to expect of the other characters, you can either prevent a group from not matching by adjusting characters, or if you are into that, at least everyone agreed. That is why it is so important to have a Session 0, after all.

[@nessesaryschoolthing]

I think "I'm just playing my character" is fair only if you were ASSIGNED your character. If you CHOSE to make your character this way, then by extension you chose everything that you character would do, and if it's disruptive then you're disruptive.

[@ColinPaddock]

There’s also if It’s clear to the other PLAYERS from the beginning what your characters going to be. Some of the truth probable responses are momentous enough that that should be clear from the outset as well. The characters may be completely in the dark till the thief betrays the party, the paladin leaves him short handed and the cleric suggests he find a priest to pay to grow that hand back next time they’re in town.

[@elgatochurro]

"Here is your character, they cant help but steal from its most trusted friends while they sleep..." could happen tbh, ngl, thats what getting assigned a character is like.

[@nessesaryschoolthing]

@@elgatochurro It's like getting assigned to be the traitor in a hidden-role game at that point.

[@elgatochurro]

@Beep Boop it's a cooperative game, and anyone being a toxic player can range from insulting other characters to trying to kill them or other horribly sadistic shit

[@c.cooper2877]

This is what I always say. Your character did not spring out of the ether; they are the result of decisions that you made. Therefore, you are responsible for anything the character does. If the character's a wangrod, it's because the player made them that way, and the player's probably a wangrod too. This does not, of course, apply to situations like dopplegangers or mirrors of opposition or possession when a player is being a wangrod under the gamemaster's orders, but those situations are rare (and, in my campaigns, basically nonexistent, as the number of players who hate that is far greater than the number who enjoy it).

[@delacreaux]

5:25 "I guarantee you there is a character you could play in this game that you would really enjoy and that would not cause the rest of us to be unhappy." Excellent point, a fantastic response to someone "playing their character". You *chose* to play that character and be a wangrod, try something else.

[@Dorian_sapiens]

I would add "...or, there's a different way you could play your character...."

[@delacreaux]

@Beep Boop The importance of a Session Zero is another issue that is often overlooked. That said, if someone is complaining about the behavior it is unlikely that the behavior was cleared with the party ahead of time, whether it was unclear or perhaps there was no Session Zero. It's also valid to have that discussion if the party no longer feels the same about such behavior. Just because it sounded fun or intriguing at the start doesn't mean they have to allow it to continue if it is now unpleasant.

[@Beastintheomlet]

I’ve responded to this defense with “in a world with magic, dragons and secrets temples, with wizards and warriors, the thing you wanted to be most was a run of the mill jackass?” I should note I said this in a game I wasn’t DM, as when one is DM you need to have more tact. It was also to someone I knew well enough to be extremely blunt with.

[@Keyce0013]

How to solve the thief stealing the Cleric's holy symbol: Step 1: Refuse to pay for the return of the holy symbol (bonus points if you tell the thief it would serve them better and they should keep it!) Step 2: Continue on with adventure as normal Step 3: Next available combat, fight as well as you can without your holy symbol Step 4: Once the thief enters melee or gets into a vulnerable position, tell the other members of your party to leg it and leave him exposed Step 5: Return to combat and retrieve holy symbol from his body. Revival post-battle optional

[@mrlugh]

Or the GM can not allow it to happen.

[@taserrr]

That seems like a whole session worth of trouble that isn't fun and could've been avoided with a simple (but slightly confrontational) 2 minute conversation with the problem player. I swear I see similar comments like this so often, TALK TO YOUR PLAYERS. I get DnD tends to attract the more anti-social nerdy types but just talk to each other as humans, know most people will understand.

[@TheRockinDonkey]

​@@taserrr frankly, a good GM will not allow it, and gently remind the player that the characters will find out eventually and it will be up to them as to whether their character remains in the party. as a GM I would kick the player from the group if they persisted in such behavior after the friendly reminder

[@Smashface_McBourbondick]

​@@TheRockinDonkey Another option is to point out that the thief has basically no chance of getting away with it if the cleric turns to the authorities. Everyone has most likely seen the cleric with his holy symbol, so they would know that the thief shouldn't have it, and in most settings magic can be used to prove without a doubt that the thief is guilty. It's like, blackmailing the cleric sounds like easy money until you realize that they don't need a holy symbol to cast Zone of Truth lol.

[@zanderthegreen2385]

This reminds me of this one time in my earlier years. Like 8 or 9 years old. I was playing with older kids. 1 player a rogue stole all my stuff. They thought it was hilarious that I a lawful good fighter had to go through the next several encounters in the buck. I barely survived I dont remember how much hp I had. Later in the campaign when they were asleep a ran them through. They got upset cuase they'd been playing that character for over a year and i a new player to their table just killed him outright.

[@shanekennard537]

"I steal the clerics divine symbol" ok "I then wake him up and tell him I found it on the ground and I knew he should have it. Hoping to get myself on his good side"

[@audreyseddon9749]

Some years ago I was in a campaign where the DM himself used what you call the Wangrod Defense. The players were becoming increasingly fed up with their characters being treated badly and it was clear that the DM was power-tripping and being intentionally manipulative. When confronted about it the DM simply said that the NPCs were doing what they would have done regardless. (In the end one PC was killed after being railroaded into an inescapable situation and in protest all the players quit.)

[@wiccamantadhg1965]

This is why my Cleric's holy symbol is a tattoo on his arm. I suppose a thief could still steal it, but I would definitely notice.

[@seanleclerc9666]

be warry kids, always practice safe drama with player's consent!

[@paulcrosslin6011]

Soo many obstacles to great D&D are overcome by group character creation and introduction of the campaign at Session 0. It's not a railroad, it's group focus. How do you want to play your D&D within the scope of the fantasy realm provided?

[@isupeene]

8:26 - "I'm not going to become one of those people who says 'if you liked this video, blah blah blah'" 9:01 - "If you liked this video..." 😂

[@OriginalWarwood]

Usually that action, the thief stealing from the party, ends the first time the lawful good player hacks off the hand of the thief for stealing. Works best with a Paladin, but a noble, or cleric of lawful deity. "That is the law; my character would not stand for such actions." Yes, discussion after that strongly helps to actually resolve it.

[@johnnybigbones4955]

Hm. Lawful Good and hacking hands off does not seem to go together well. Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil maybe.

[@stopperzapper]

@@johnnybigbones4955 so I guess Lawful Good Paladins of the past never killed a single thing just cause good and hacking things don't go together? If the law states you cut the hand off a thief caught in the act, I don't see why a Lawful Good Paladin would not resort to do that without being considered evil, as he exacted justice by the law and as expected by society on one caught in a criminal act which was both thievery and treachery. Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil might as well just kill the thief.

[@OriginalWarwood]

@@johnnybigbones4955 If the law says to remove the hand of a thief, then what is unlawful about carrying out the law? And, how is punishing evil not good? I suppose it would be in part a matter of the law of your world, but playing with history as inspiration and basis, prisons are a very modern invention. Throughout much of history, public shaming, mutilation, torture, and execution were normal punishments. Granted, I would argue torture and painful executions would not fall into a "Good" society, but flogging or removing an ear, finger, eye, or hand would not be outside the realm of possible punishments for thieves. Alternately, fines or forced labor may be the law of the land.

[@KaminaCicada]

The price of theft is your hand.

[@berndborte8214]

Honestly, "Hacking off a players hand." is an even more of a wangrod-move than "Stealing holy symbol." Both actions ruin the fun of a player, because they limit his options drastically. One of them does it permanently. Stealing from the party isn't a big issue and can even cause a lot of fun situations. As long as the party finds a way to work together, inter-party conflict can enrich roleplay.

[@lilcwa]

I love not only that you identify this problem so thoroughly but also that you present such a practical solution. All of your content is really good. But this is REALLY good. Game on.

[@HellfireJags]

"I'm just playing my character!" Yeah, and our characters don't want to adventure with an asshole who keeps stealing our stuff. Have fun on your own.

[@nickwilliams8302]

Pretty much. Yeah. Of course, this amounts to telling the player that they can't play D&D anymore, which is how the wangrods keep getting let off the hook. The best thing is preventative measures taken before the campaign begins. Simply point out that players are expected to create PCs who want to adventure with the party and whom the party would want as a member. Use the example of stealing from the party to explain this concept. Since I started doing this, I have not had someone try to pull the "wangrod defence" on me.

[@nickwilliams8302]

@@CrashSable You misunderstand me. These players are "let off the hook" when DMs _don't_ pull them up on their behaviour and tell them to stop ruining the game for everyone else or they can find a new game. It's a pretty confrontational thing to do to a friend; tantamount to telling them they can't hang out with you anymore. Which is why you'll see so many people advocating trying to police wangrodism with in-game consequences instead in the hope of "teaching them a lesson". Far better to set clear boundaries and expectations in Session Zero. One of which is the concept that D&D is a _group activity,_ a team sport if you will. Players are constrained in the kind of character they can play by the need to keep the party together so the campaign can continue. If they don't observe this rule, the other players can't RP _their_ PCs.

[@OftenOrangutan]

Love waking up to a new Matt Colville video

[@OftenOrangutan]

@Alien Alien Wangrod mad

[@OftenOrangutan]

@Alien Alien Sorry I can't hear you over the noises of the soy milk I'm slurping down in my designated soy cup. A) What grounds do you have to think Matt alters his voice? B) If he does then would it be for any other reason than audio clarity? C) Hair dying isn't uncommon today, why is it any different in his case? D) Wangrod still mad. Listen to Matt and be a better player.

[@OftenOrangutan]

@Alien Alien Haven't read anything of that nature saying he changes his voice (doesn't sound any different when he's playing D&D). Your response to his hair dying is utterly moronic; just because you've decided what men ought to do, it does not follow that they ought do (or refrain from) said thing. Would I dye my hair? Probably not because it's not in my interest. Is it in Matt's interest if he's doing it? Probably, because he is doing it. Do you or I know why it's in Matt's interest? Most likely not. A refusal to answer any part of my question just goes to show.... That wangrod mad.

[@ColinPaddock]

Alien Alien It’s certainly possible he doesn’t give two shits what the Alpha Male😂🤣😂🤣 with a pussycat avatar thinks of his personal choices. Maybe he likes the way he looks, maybe his wife likes the way he looks(which any Real Man®️, who likes not being a virgin holds as far more important than the fashion advice of “Mr. Kitten Avatar, Lord of Outer 4Chan”). Whatever. It’s really none of your business, but you do seem obsessed with other men’s looks in a way that makes everybody around here think that maybe you should find one of those Alpha Males you keep talking about and get yourself laid.

[@barneyatkinson-saul9881]

"I roll to attack the thief after paying for the holy symbol." "Wha-" "IT'S WHAT MY CHARACTER WOULD DO."

[@Luna-Eclypse]

In my first ever campaign, I was playing my Ranger, and somehow ended up as the only character that could heal. As such, I carried the potions, and had what few healing spells the Ranger table allowed. And he was murdered by a Tiefling rogue duo of "veteran" players, one a thief, the other an assassin. I fell from the battlements of a castle we were scaling, and instead of helping me up, or even leaving me to fate, they jumped down, stole my inventory, and stabbed me in the neck quoting "Something wrong with your leg, boy?" It was our third session, and I almost gave up on D&D in general after that. I was miserable. I loved my character, and everyone told me I should be prepared for them to die. But I wasn't prepared for the death to be at the deliberate hands of the rest of the table.

[@MartinTraXAA]

Tiefling rogues that gank the new guy who was the only one with healing? Sounds like they were being MASSIVE cockwombles.

[@swellactually]

that SUCKS, oh man this story made me sad :( i'm glad you didn't let them drive you out of the game!

[@MrMichealHouse]

If that wasn't just a reference to a song of ice and fire, you were playing with assholes.

[@andrewszigeti2174]

"I'm just playing my character. Thieves steal, that's what we do!" "Okay, I'm just playing my character too. Fighters beat down people who steal from them; that's what WE do." It's amazing how fast they change their minds when it's THEIR character getting victimized by other PCs.

[@leatcanned]

I've heard the "Gee goiz I'm just roleplaying a thief" excuse before, usually, the veteran fighter would reply " I TOO AM PLAYING MY CLASS" before he lops off the theifs head. metagaming all around and not a drop to drink.

[@Duranous1]

I hate the wangrod defense and it's addendum "my character is chaotic neutral"

[@nickwilliams8302]

Oh God yes. Alignment is a _description_ of the character's morality, not the _motivation_ for their actions. The villain doesn't want to murder the King because he's Neutral Evil; he's Neutral Evil because he ants to murder the King.

[@leatcanned]

"My character is chaotic stupid." I fixed your typo.

[@Duranous1]

@@leatcanned I had to do a double read because I failed to notice the difference at first. 🤣

[@andrewszigeti2174]

Even Chaotic Neutrals can still have friends. Heck, even Chaotic EVILS can still have friends. How one views the world does not mean you have to treat your friends the same way.

[@JohnAmerisun]

Thank you so much for keeping the MCDM and live D&D stuff on another channel, I love these smaller digestible nuggets of goodness about D&D and the science and art of DM'ing a game or playing a game, and really don't have a desire to see the live D&D stuff, but I wish you the best on both channels!!

[@seankeaney823]

In 1st & 2nd ed you did not want to make enemies with the cleric, about the only person who can heal your wounds. I have always thought a good response to “I am only doing what my character would do.” Is “So am I roll for initiative.”

[@charlesedwards4772]

"It's what my character would do!" "Then your character is a jerk and not trustworthy and therefore was never welcomed into the group. Would you like to try to NOT ret-con your character out of existence?" Seriously, though: tales and experience with this has led me to setting that expectation of not screwing each other over unless they intended their character to become an NPC villian.

[@cRAVEtrance]

Theif: "I'M the jerk that isn't trustworthy?! What about that church that you stole all the tithes from?" Fighter: "Well what was I supposed to do? The priestess wasn't putting out ..." Thief: "ಠ_ಠ You aren't making a strong case for yourself, you know that?" Fighter: "See? You're being a jerk right now."

[@nickwilliams8302]

@Charles Edwards Yup. Setting expectations ahead of time is the best way to prevent _so_ many problems. D&D is a team sport. Players are expected to create PCs who want to adventure with the party and whom the party would want as a member. Since making some variation of this part of my standard Session Zero spiel, I just haven't run into the vast majority of wangrod behaviours.

[@evanwelsh7225]

I started watching through running the game again. It's really wonderful. It reminds me of how much I love playing d&d and how wonderful the story can be. Thank you for being an inspiration and a mentor to me Matt.

[@OctoberGeek]

We were once playing an evil campaign, and as often happens in an evil campaign, one of the players was playing Chaotic-Evil as Chaotic-Stupid. If he didn't like what the group was doing, the plans we made to tackle a given encounter, he (a Psionicist) would say "I mind-blast the room". It got to the point where if we were going to keep playing with him, we as _players_ would need to make sure _he_ was happy with our plans, our our characters would fall victim to his pretty OP power. Suffice to say the campaign didn't last, and we never played with him again. And, no, I don't think he would have acted differently if we'd not been playing an evil campaign.

[@tannerbarnes7392]

The story from the beginning actually happened to my group a few sessions ago. We had a new player, who was playing a Paladin, and the group Rogue decided to pick the pocket of the paladin. The Paladin's player, my little sister, was nervous, but the Rogue's player has been a family friend for years, so there's trust. What happened with the characters? My other friend plays a loud, outspoken monk who was looking for the rest of the party. He happened upon the two and loudly chastised the Rogue for stealing from a fine, upstanding Paladin. Laughs all around the table.

[@v4rr0lot3k6]

It's the two phrases I always tell people in TRPGs: "You are playing your character. Your character isn't playing you." Simple and to the point.

[@phatman9762]

I've done something similar to this though it was in a game where everyone agreed to SOME degree of PVP in the game so it was no big deal. That being said PVP is only fun when everyone is in on it.

[@Miracle1729-x9j]

Thank you for bolstering my confidence in running D&D. It is always something I look forward to and the friends I have made are in part due to the work you've put into this channel. You are a hero of mine

[@comicstrider4851]

I really like the collaboration idea, that way it can be an in-character conflict without making people uncomfortable out of character. Even better, it can make the other character/s part of your character's development, increasing party's bonds and player's solidarity

[@MrTheGadfly]

"Your enjoyment is coming at the expense of someone else's misery" That's what Monopoly is for, not D&D 😄

[@dacrook87]

Matt! I love your content! Thank you! My players and I have just started using Strongholds and Followers - they decided to build a keep and everyone is very excited! Thank you for writing such an awesome book, making such awesome videos, and running such an awesome game that we can all follow and watch! Keep up the great work!

[@nobody342]

Sooo...... I assume in strongholds and followers, you design you stronghold to protect yourself against the wangrod?????

[@liamcullen3035]

This has definitely been relevant to my experiences playing D&D. We didn’t know how to deal with it at the time, and it caused a lot of issues and tensions outside of the game. But you’re right that people mature! Thankyou for the insightful video, I’m very much looking forward to next week’s video on The B Plot!

[@danfelder8062]

As a DM I say "You're just playing your character? Okay, and what if I make an all-powerful god character that hates you specifically and kills you right now? I'd just be playing my character. People shouldn't make characters that ruin the fun of someone else in the group."

[@neuropunk8267]

Great Video Matt. As a community, we have issues with handling his sort of thing at the table and this is probably more valuable than you know as a tool for helping your fellow Dungeon Masters sort out their table.

[@AAnotherCarter]

Thank you Matt, great video, similar case has just happened in my game, now I have something to suggest to my players and, hopefully, solve the situation

[@biker9476]

I had an experience once where another player in a campaign was “role-playing” a character who would aggressively flirt with other characters in the game, including player characters. My character ended up being one of the ones most constantly “flirted” at, and it made me extremely uncomfortable almost every game. I tried bringing it up with our dm, who did talk to her about it a few times, but neither of us wanted to make things uncomfortable (ironically) and wanted to be nice to her. But she didn’t stop, and eventually it led to me leaving the game. I ended up starting a new game recently with a few friends from that group, but I always felt bad about the experience when it wasn’t even my fault. I regret not directly addressing her about it during the first game or getting out of the group sooner, because it was several months of harassment and I felt so gross through the whole thing. I don’t know if this is common at tables with problem players, but if anyone else out there is having this issue, please please PLEASE address it the moment it comes up. If it’s not consensual (which it wasn’t with us) it’s harassment whether they’re “role-playing” this type of character or not.

[@RaindropsGames]

my dungeon master would always look to the victim and ask "do you consent to this happening to your character?" which i found to be smart because if they said no, it wouldn't happen, but if they said yes, the wangrod immediately understands that they only got to do something because the victim LET it happen. It immediately takes the mischievous wind out of their sails, and makes them play more fun for everyone, while still allowing interparty conflict.

[@broceollomon]

This has been a problem at tables I've sat at in the past and no one ever knew how to deal with it. Thanks Matt.

[@amberlyveil8856]

My response: "Ok we're gonna turn you in for the bounty on ya" "What? You can't do that?" "Why not? It's what our characters would do."

[@ZakkuTakku]

"I'm the lawful good paladin, it's just what my character would do" *smirks*

[@ebrann]

"Our Universe" Book on the top shelf in the back. I got that book too!

[@Victor.Alteria]

Another one knocked out of the park. this one goes on my list of videos to show new players.

[@petersmith1190]

My friend just had their first dnd session tonight and she said she felt excited rather than daunted by it because of your intro to dnd video. Also just finished Priest and Thief, great books and have sparked some nice ideas for the campaign i'm trying to make now. Thanks Matt!

[@Unanimoustoo]

One of my first games was in 2e ad&d. I was afraid of this happening to my brother when he came to me saying he wanted to play a cleric. He turned it around by saying that the holy symbol on his neck was just a superficial distraction, that the real one was branded on his chest. When the thief tried to ransom the fake holy symbol back, my brother said his cleric tore his shirt at the neck revealing the one on his chest, and said "Go to hell." to cast banishment. At the time I thought it was so brilliant that I allowed it, saying that the gods smiled upon him and sent the thief to hell for a few minutes. The thief player was stunned, he didn't even know that was possible. After that session the thief player admitted that it was pretty awesome and promised not to steal from the casters again if it meant they could do stuff like that to the bad guys.

[@swellactually]

that's an INCREDIBLE story, i admire the clever setup and the triumphant energy of that payoff so much, your brother's my hero

[@hishammor8490]

The jury finds the defendant, Matthew Colville, not guilty of charges of being a horrible player, designer, and a human being. All Rise.

[@kereminde]

@Alien Alien For this we sentence him to run another 10 episodes about the Chain of Acheron and their never-ending quest to find an honest journalist for their broadsheet ad campaign.

[@Zapnl]

@Alien Alien haters gonna hate

[@thatoneguythatsalwaysonlin2770]

Player: I roll for intimidation Roll: Nat 20 DM: "The goblins screech as they use their short bows to shoot themselves", attack roll Roll: Nat 20. Damage : 6 + 2 DM: "The Goblins are dead, what did you do to intimidate them"? Player: I eat the sandwich with crusts.

[@johnjustjohn5866]

Funny moment in the game I'm in came out of intimidation, party is being ambushed by goblins, I kill a goblin, roll well on intimidation so the other goblin tries to escape by jumping off a roof and then died from fall damage

[@thatoneguythatsalwaysonlin2770]

@Alien Alien That's nice, but do you have any funny DND stories to tell other than how real men are better than SJWs.

[@johnjustjohn5866]

@Alien Alien like what did that have to do with a d&d comment?

[@mikegould6590]

Thanks Matt. This is an ongoing problem at my table. One particular player is a problem regardless of the number of times and manners of communication. Yet, no one is willing to kick him... That’s our fault, I guess.

[@toshomni9478]

Just decide to stop helping his character in combat and he will quickly die or get the message.

[@ariaflame-au]

Alien Alien hey if you don’t want the DM to fudge the roll occasionally to keep you alive that’s up to you

[@gnarthdarkanen7464]

@Alien Alien, nope, it's NOT at our Table... ;o)

[@lavenderscare4995]

Ah, im just now catching up to your recent videos. As a new dm I found you basic rules videos so informative on better ways to run the game, and now I'm getting more niche or interesting tips and opinions, which is even cooler!

[@anathema1828]

This video: Truly a priceless work of art.

[@imsorrydave9000]

Jeez, I love the way you describe things. Best DM advice & insight in the world.

[@lukedavis307]

For me, what was annoying and or hypocritical about the "I'm just playing my character" defense is that I have had my aggrieved character say "guys, we cannot have someone we cannot trust in this party. Our lives are way too dangerous to have to watch our backs from our own party. Let's just find someone else". The player of the thief / chaotic character loses their mind and responds with outrage. Turns out that "I'm just playing my character" defense only goes one way.

[@KingFate20]

If you steal the Cleric's holy symbol. You are the entire party's enemy. If I was one of the other players I would straight up kill the thief because my character "Cannot let live a scoundrel who would threaten the integrity of our duty for their greed." If you want to "play your character" so will I. He would die. No take backzies.

[@scabbynack]

This video is so important! Especially for folks who have been playing for a long time and can end up not even seeing this sort of behavior.

[@scabbynack]

(When I tried to sign up for a notification for your next Kickstarter, I got a 403 Forbidden error)

[@watuhboy]

I paused the video when the concept for the topic was introduced (I'm just playing my character!) I was really pleased that he hit pretty much every point I came up with myself, and came to similar conclusions!

[@spikejohnson00]

HEY MATT~~ I just bought my first copy of Strongholds and Followers + the PDF. Thanks again for being awesome!!!

[@lennydotdotdot5580]

I once got into a pissing match with a dude because he decided that my character was an asshole based on weird, arbitrary reasons that basically boiled down to...he does not like me. So suddenly, weird innocuous things became "my character will never forgive yours for being mean to cleric." Meanwhile, me and cleric are like...friends. They're friendly. They're...just...talking to each other??? Anyway he decided that what his character would do was call mine evil and then proceed to make a deal with a devil that's been fucking with her. I was really thrown off by this because nothing about the interaction hinted to me that he was for sure gonna go through with it; he was being told by other PCs, the NPCs, and us OOC that no one was happy about this. Then he made a deal. Which was to leave the party for a month to commit mass murder. Then he left notes. So anyway, my character told her mom, whose house they were staying in, because in my headspace mom would help us stop him from hurting someone. Unfortunately Mom was like, "Well I don't know this fucking guy and I think I'm calling the paladin squad now." We basically all went to holy jail because of this and 3/5 party members were removed from play, one permanently. Player blamed the DM, and me. I don't really know what the fuck is up with this situation because literally every NPC and PC interaction was, "Be really careful what you do here, people are not accepting, they're gonna freak out if they learn about what you've been doing." And I was having a good time RPing up until this moment. So anyway, while we're RPing the prison interrogation, the player leaves a comment in the group chat that says "I knew this was a bad idea but I couldn't imagine my character not doing this." So, "It's what my character would do." There was other, above table stuff that makes me really glad I don't interact with this person anymore but his reaction was to be passive aggressive about the fact that my character had asked mom for help, and I, not having experienced this particular brand of 4D bullshit, responded with, "My character has never only cared about the party and wouldn't be OK with any of us committing mass murder." So basically "it's what my character would do." On one hand I can't make this a democratic process in this situation because at least two players were convinced my job was to bite my tongue and make my character cool with it. Not even to act angry if he got back. And that felt wrong and controlling. On the other hand, maybe yeah, I should have. (I mean, for reasons not related to the game I'm glad I didn't, the guy was just generally a creep.)

[@unclefestersworld3180]

Another quality video Matt. Thanks a heap for this information. Keep it up.

[@brandonharrison970]

Thanks for all your work and dedication!

[@PrimordialNightmare]

Rogue steals clerics holy symbol Rogue wants to ransom it back Cleric goes maze to the face Which side would the rest of the party choose?

[@KaminaCicada]

Go to a blacksmith to collaborate with your church to make a weapon that is your holy symbol. My cleric's shield was one.

[@PrimordialNightmare]

@@KaminaCicada that's alwys cool.

[@jamesfisher9594]

Holy symbol tattoo.

[@0Fyrebrand0]

@@KaminaCicada My cleric's holy symbol is emblazoned on his warhammer. Although I guess he'd be doubly as screwed if *that* got stolen...

[@andrewszigeti2174]

By and large, a character who steals from a party member at best gets beat down, tied up, and returned to the local authorities. Or they get killed and looted. Or beat down, stripped, tied up, and used to distract the next carnivore...

[@bufar]

I'm so glad you made this video. I wish I could have watched it a year ago when I was struggling with this at my table.

[@bekkayya]

Great stuff as always! You being able to articulate what I've felt as a GM is really helping me work on how my game works.

[@TheLyricalCleric]

I’m glad that Matt is stressing the “talk to your PLAYERS” bit rather than solving things in-game. Player problems can’t be solved by in-game mechanics because the problem players don’t believe the mechanics have any consequences. Killing a fake npc or stealing a fake holy symbol is just make believe to them, so why get angry? It’s important to pull out of the story, talk to the player, and connect the in-game mechanical actions with real-world feelings and attitudes. Yeah, all sand castles are just sand to you, but smashing someone else’s sandcastle may be more hurtful to them than it would be to you. Gotta teach empathy, folks.

[@leonardoazolin8780]

Finally, the RTG videos are back! Keep them coming, absolutely love this stuff!

[@ClericalError87]

It's always good to see this advice. Good video Matt.

[@romantheflash]

Communication is always the key. Thanks for constantly remind us of this.

[@BBTManiac]

rogue: steals holy focus cleric: ok. later in combat rogue: i NeEd HeAlInG cleric:

[@LuckyMari878]

Having a rough time right now (outside of ttgames thing) and this video is really helping me right now. Thank you

[@LuckyMari878]

@Alien Alien ? what are you talking about? Im afraid I dont get the reference.

[@MrDullestCrapster]

@@LuckyMari878 He's a troll who's been running around the comments of this video. Just ignore him.

[@GriswoldCain]

Thanks for all your videos dude, much appreciated.

[@hurleyman77]

Great discussion. Two other things to put into the mix are 1) It's not the ONLY thing your character would do: You're not being forced into choosing the toxic path. There are many things your character might do, and you're responsible for having chosen the toxic one. 2) The system is not holy, consequently following the system is not a justification for ALL behaviors. All systems are vulnerable to abuse, and the agents within that system are responsible for the abuse of it. Yes, we're all here for some degree of verisimilitude in our collaborative roleplay, but such verisimilitude is not sacred enough to justify abusive or toxic behavior.

[@Dorian_sapiens]

"Opt-in" for the win!

[@MindSlain]

Other than Alarm, there really aren’t a lot of creative or interesting mechanical counter measures to theft either that is accessible to players. And even if a target victim player were creative enough to prepare for this, it’s likely a thief player would meta-game around not knowing. Solution for my group would be high perception guard pets. Especially venomous ones.

[@cRAVEtrance]

This was a great video. This put into words why I love running a game with a PC-Kender, but am always hyper paranoid/less enjoyment had in games where I am playing alongside a PC-Kender.

[@nansalem2142]

Personally how I would have handled that exchange as the DM was, I'd allow the Rogue to roll and on a success, they take ehhh ~5 or so radiant damage as the symbol burns their hand. The Rogue did their shit, got the consequence for it, perfectly reasonable to say they incurred the wrath of god as it was a Cleric, the Cleric doesn't get the butt of the joke and probably felt as though their god has got their back and I never said no to anything the Rogue said they wanted to do. Everyone's happy.

[@Eladelia]

Fantastic, as your videos always are!

[@sunshinejameth]

Waking up at 3-4 am sick as a dog. Happy to have a new matt video to keep me somewhat sane.

[@mairsil]

At 4:06 I felt really dumb because I was initially like "Huh, what's the wan-grod defense?"

[@thepinms]

The classic defense to the thief stealing your holy symbol is refuse to heal them. That is until they give you twice the gold they took earlier. Then the cycle of griefing continues.

[@falfires]

For a brief moment before clicking on this video, I thought to myself "What epic battle tale will you regale us with today?" ...that was a better moment than the one immediately after.

[@anikarimo]

Last session a player (Rogue obvs) literally said "Dude stop complaining, I'm just playing my character" as he proceeded to annoy the heck out of the rest of the party. This video gave me some ideas on how to deal with those kind of players. Btw: miss you doing longer videos!

[@billp6602]

I would eat this up as a cleric. "Through you, my god is testing my faith. I must go without my divine powers to pass this test" then when the party forces them to give my holy symbol back because I havent been able to heal, that rogue is no longer worthy of my divine touch. Just playing my character.

[@keishii2648]

I used the "I'm just playing my character" defense a few times, but the only examples that come to mind are from my first D&D character a LG stick-in-the-mud Triton Soldier. Some of the party was trying to be shady and my character was being a goodie-two-shoes, I felt that she was the party mom at times. Then she went insane gaining a long term madness and instead of being an equle member of the party she believed she was a soldier again that followed orders from her "Commander". At that point it was less "This is what my character would do" and more "This is what my character is doing".

[@BigFrakkinOgre]

What you call "toxic players" are what I call "every player I ever have at the table when I DM". It actually works great, since they're all "wangrods" it keeps things balanced. They're all stealing from each other, playing pranks with alchemist's fire and transmutation spells, and generally screwing each other over. It gives me lots of time to get DM prep work done.

[@bdk336]

I play with a group that is pretty hardcore when it comes to roleplaying. Many of our characters take on lives of their own and some of those characters are not nice people but we almost never have conflict between the players. We regularly have meta discussions about what we want or don't want, especially in the roleplay aspect which I don't think other groups tend to discuss a lot. This means that when we make characters they might be jerks but they're jerks with enough in-character reasons to play nice that they won't do things like directly interfere with another player character without good reason. And similarly warning each other when a particular character is going to do something or react in a way the players might not like allows us to either slightly shift to avoid the situation or make sure everyone is okay with it going forward. The combination of a little consideration for other players ahead of time and regular communication is really all you need most of the time.

[@benzub423]

Gosh Matt, I watch this video and thought you were sitting next to me in one of the recent games I was playing and just describe the situation you saw in our game. Like step by step.

[@harjutapa]

I will forever call the description box the dooblydoo, Matt. Thank you for that.

[@cypherdee5295]

What I'd do to counter that specific problem is quite simple. Stealing a holy symbol is stealing the focus of a god's power. The god generally chooses the cleric, so having that focus stolen by a thief would result in the god intervening. Whenever the cleric tries to reach out to the god, have the thief roll 1d6 damage against themselves. Then tell the cleric and the thief that the cleric can no longer heal that thief, until the thief atones to the cleric AND the god. Yeah you need to be a DM to do it, but it shows the players that cruel actions aren't harmless, to the players or to the characters.

[@GGSigmar]

New video - best sight just after coming home from work

[@RWAKitty]

I think there's a strong distinction between "playing your character" and "playing the game". Remember, everyone at the table is there to play the game before they're there to play their character. I never liked the idea of people simply disallowing inter-party conflict, because it IS in character. However, you should never allow it to get out of hand to the point that it's greater than the GAME. I think the idea of talking out inter-party conflict, of setting it up works really well. I also think it takes a rather mature play group to make that happen. I've seen some groups who do this regularly, and they have some incredible stories to tell! For new players, I find it best to lay out some of the unspoken rules of table top roleplaying, namely that there's an unspoken pact between all players in a party, that you are, in general, working together for the goals of the game. This goes for players and the DM too! Players should work to cooperate with their DM's game, and not attempt to just derail the whole thing. As always, communication is king in roleplaying games. If you haven't already definitely try it!

[@Iknowvfx]

Some of the most fun I've had in D&D was when every player was a toxic backstabber. We all knew this going into the game though. When everyone is in on it, it's good banter and fun.

[@frabjuosity]

In any situation, there are a number of different ways any given person can choose to act. Just like you have free will, your character isn't on a "rail" with only one possible thing they can do in every situation. There are always other things your character would ALSO do, which won't ruin the fun of the other people at the table.

[@baobhan9094]

The rogue class or the thief should ALWAYS have been called the 'Expert' Change my mind.