The War Within's Player Numbers Are In, And They're Odd.

[@BellularGaming]

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[@jchinckley]

I think one reason that people are not showing up is obvious: PoE2 just beat the living crap out of Blizzard and their D4 rep didn't take it well. Not only that, but the delve mechanic? That's something they took from PoE as it was a season mechanic a couple years ago while I was still playing PoE. Could they not have at least named it something else?

[@Boomken76]

problem with use achievements to track is alts DO NOT TRIGGER achievements anymore, ex my self Ive pissed off on delves & most TWW content, just been alt farming the anniversary quests & every quest that 100% rewards boxes of gear for every class as dps, no time for TWW stuff other then the disk daily and if there is a "do this 5man" for a box quest

[@MonsieurDeVeteran]

Soo, you gonna correct the math in the beginning for the Bruto/Gilded mounts or something...? Or, since that's wrong, the rest of the video is also wrong?

[@TOX1Cparadise]

"More methodology details in the pinned comment" Pinned comment is just another ad. Wow this channel is going downhill so fucking fast. Absolute scummy behavior.

[@icarusgeo]

"Logged in during 20th anniversary" achievement, would be the one I'd take to measure active accounts atm.

[@Rogzjel]

I think this achievement pop up even for trial accounts. Also I didn't bought TWW and just used my gold for game time to check event and I got this, so using this for tracking active players is not reliable.

[@darksky7507]

Nah I stopped after

[@plummet3860]

No because that would include bots

[@nerdrooted]

It pops for alts, so might not be the most accurate or quantifiable measure.

[@bierdeckelHeinz]

Duplicates can pop as a UI feature without actually "registering" as a valid occurrence. Since achievements are account wide I doubt if those duplicates counted?

[@kubi0461]

Short answer is that in modern WoW I often find it difficult to see where the carrot is, how to get to it, and have some idea of how long it will take. I log in, do things, and don't really have a feeling of how much I've accomplished, progressed, or even how much rewards I earned. I hate the crests system as well as the current way upgrades work. I do though like being able to change items into tier, that's been a great addition.. though I still have no clue where I'm getting those tokens from and when. Delves are great but, as currently designed, get very old very quickly. There's no depth to them and nothing changes from tier to tier except health pools and damage numbers. Wow's missing an endgame zone with no scaling, one that is deadly to even walk into at initial level cap ilvl. Then even various casual types could get a feeling of accomplishment from gear progression for a while due to being able to discover, explorer, and complete stuff in that zone as they improve their gear. In short, I want to play WoW but ultimately find it feels empty and soulless in actual experience in game.. closer to mindless button mashing in a mobile game than an mmorpg world. It's lost too many core RPG aspects when WoW was already RPG-lite in 2004. It's left WoW with all of the grinds and tedious aspects of an mmorpg but without the depth and flavor that makes them rewarding.

[@Aceiolix]

wow under activision never learned to threat players as people that evolve in life and the game - Its a reason not to buy any blizzard game and get the more service you get from "private servers, "The profit force in blizzard (shareholders )are huge one this one"

[@robind.2290]

Totally agree with the above comments. While I have been playing WoW since the beginning, I just can't seem to develope a continuing interest in playing. While I did purchase the War Within, and played til 80, got most of the beginning achievements, etc on my main, I have only been basically logging on to work on raiding with my guild. Most of my guildies are mythic plus, but since I am not, I have been playing other games in between.

[@JoceBeggar]

Exactly

[@Erk350]

@@robind.2290 Part of the problem is people want to rip through all the content as fast as humanly possible and moving onto the next game.

[@MikeyJ28]

So you want Blizzard to create a zone that nobody will care about? Retail is about group content and casual solo content now. If it’s going to be solo content, it can’t be too difficult.

[@SKQS88]

There are players such as myself who got into WoW for the world. I have little to no interest in raiding.

[@ganond0rf-fd9hn]

Sweaty people like him don't get that. man I just do world quests, random bgs and pet battles and it's the most fun I've ever had.

[@eddorian985]

I love flying in azeroth randomly. Visiting old places. Maybe find a secret or missing mog. Listen to ambience. Relaxing.

[@Bollalillo]

There are SOOO many better games for that

[@trixdream]

then classic vanilla is the way to go for you.

[@jewishjojo]

@@ganond0rf-fd9hnhe specifically talks about renown metrics for world content gamers. Also his earliest point of reference is delves and delve progression clears at each tier

[@sct77]

I don't know, it just seems like the ones that Blizzard is "retaining" were loyal players that weren't going to quit no matter what.

[@SlimeySludge]

that's the ting isnt it. there'll always be a core player base who made wow their literal identity outside of their work. what wow fails to do is capture anyone new or convince distanced veterans. I heard that wow is losing veteran players faster than gaining new players, but that doesn't matter. Whales will fund the game, just as the 90 dollar mount says.

[@Shredow2]

@@SlimeySludgethose veterans might hate retail but they come back for classic.

[@SlimeySludge]

@@Shredow2 thing is about classic is that it spikes every vanilla or expansion realease then it dies down a lot, and exponentially with every expansion afterwards, especially after WOTLK. classic life runtime is like a dps cooldown, its good revenuie at a spike burst phase lmao

[@Shredow2]

@@SlimeySludge Yeah, and all they have to do is keep doing fresh every few years and they'll get that boost of veterans coming back. Not really sure how what you're saying changes what I'm saying.

[@hysteresis4222]

​@@SlimeySludgeTBC veteran who hasn't been captivated since WOD ended here. I'm back and think this is one of the best expansions to date. The only thing I think is missing is a bigger player base for PVP, finding arenas much slower to queue for.

[@ShintarsVideos]

The fact that having Khaz Algar Diplomat apparently makes me more of a "1%-er" than someone who has a high M+ rating or is clearing heroic raids is hilarious to me.

[@borga6566]

It's always been like this too, which is hilarious. People really underestimate how rare some of the "easy" things to do in the game actually are. Hitting renown 25 with all of them may not be hard, but it requires some commitment and dedication.

[@izicadet9819]

People have been spamming dungeons and raid and battlegrounds since the beginning and they never paid attention to quests. Humans are the problem

[@DreadedX]

I can't believe that 2.6% number. It's crazy to me!

[@ziggs123]

Because it doesn't give character power

[@Difcar]

@@borga6566 The reps in war within are just a boring slog that reward no player power. Unless you are a collector there is no reason to max them.

[@fyrestorme]

I think your math might be off. 1,158,952 * 0.05 = 57947.6 57947.6 * 90$ = $5,215,284.00 Not $104,350,680. At least that is how you set up the math in your description of things. Perhaps you were leaving something out?

[@vaccy1]

I immediately thought that math was odd and worked out the same, 5215284 dollars.

[@teapea8184]

Yeah I was like wait wut, how did roughly 60k people paying $90 turn into 100M.

[@derisgaming9773]

Yeah it would've only been $104mil if it was $90 spent by ALL the accounts logged. I.e. 1,158,952 x $90 = $104,350,680

[@RedRiverCAE]

should certainly be worth a correction imo

[@Nightstalker314]

I sit in his discord, he follows me on twitter. I constantly give him information on nuance to these number topics and he once again fumbles with this video. I don't know who writes these scripts and collects the data for him but there are just too many mistakes over time.

[@nickthetoycollector3360]

I barely do delves. I never do Mythic runs. I only run LFG Raids. I mostly just do World Quests, and older Raids to try to acquire transmog items or mounts. That is it for me.

[@ninjaAsassasin1212]

Damn that's boring.

[@41Nizmo]

@@ninjaAsassasin1212 is it really any more boring than just key pounding over and over and over again the exact same content with some difficulty changes to try upgrade gear that will be useless in a couple months?

[@awsomeandy911]

Play classic, it will give you a MMO feel

[@vralmanuel]

@@41Nizmo Yes, it is more boring than doing content where you have a chance to fail and you're constantly trying to push the coordination of your group to the limit.

[@41Nizmo]

@@vralmanuel i play sports and do real world shit for that, i dont give a shit about challenging the limits of my fictional troll warrior in a casual video game lol.

[@MrJeremydb91]

Shocker…people prefer simple to sweaty…m+ sucks now, I went from doing multiple keys every week in DF to basically 0 in TWW. Also, the gear gap is too big now.

[@Ghust19]

The gearing between tracks is abysmal, something that kept me off progressing m+ as I don’t do mythic raiding as of now, so at some point I’ll be at too much of disadvantage compared to people that just have better gear. Not even mentioning how much vault matters now for m+ compared to df

[@MrJeremydb91]

@ yeah. It’s real fun doing keys with my mythic raider friends and getting dwarfed in dps by people I usually smoke

[@decwow]

​@@MrJeremydb91 C'mon, man.... You know what's coming after that comment... 😁 *_Get good._*

[@MrJeremydb91]

@@decwow hard to overcome 15+ ilevels

[@Robin...222]

​@@MrJeremydb91lies.

[@Myth-u1o]

There’s also us players who’ve gotten older and don’t even bother with mythic plus anymore. We just do casual content hero we’d like some gear from that too. We’ve been playing for 15+ years.

[@RictuSlayer]

lol I just think M+ is kinda lame. still never done a +10 ever since legion, running the same dungeons over and over just isn't for me

[@vvohvaelez9277]

isnt that basically what delves was made for? Can easily get a 616 vault from not too much effort

[@matimusmaximus]

Too bad the open world isn't part of the game any more

[@fizzylu]

It's funny, because I consider myself an "older player" and the main reason I don't have an interest in playing WoW anymore is because I'm tired of the endgame just being about gear.

[@biostar3697]

@@matimusmaximus The open world is still part of the game, but the real problem is, its not challenging and dangerous anymore. Its just a map, a fkn playground where you can fly with speed of light on your mount. Thats what I love about classic. The classic world is challenging, dangerous, mysterious...

[@bootnscoot5265]

I believe we're overthinking it a bit, the simplest solution is almost always the best. "I'm tired boss" It's a wave of fatigue, that fatigue may take many shapes, but it is fatigue all the same.

[@Henagata]

I have been playing a lot of random unranked BGs and haven't done the main campaign, any delves, world quests, raids or dungeons. I am unaccountable.

[@TheNamesNobody]

Thats the majority of people i know playing. I have no idea why he thinks its another way or is surprised people dont have quest achievements. Thats always been the minority.

[@Valvad0ss]

There are 1000 of you if that lol

[@ziggs123]

Haven't done the main campaign is just stupid tho, you don't have access to world quests including pvp world quests

[@Failedwizard1]

@@ziggs123 Those are a complete waste of time to do.

[@JeanBaptisteIrvin]

Delves made me not have to do the other content to get the gear and ilvl that I wanted, so I didn’t and that is okay with me.😊

[@chantalwiebe534]

Yeah, like, not having to "time" a delve has removed so much stress for me. I can go as slow as I want, solo or with a group, and we don't have to worry about anything other than not dying.

[@deenman23]

@@chantalwiebe534 this is mostly just a low skill player issue,i never felt stress or had the feeling we were going to fast in any m+.the pace of your averege weekly 10 keys feels fine

[@MsWillowbayOrelse]

I love that I can do a delve with friends or by myself, if no one is on. I don't have to deal with other people's playing styles and if a mistake is made no one is going to chew me out for it. I had thought about doing the mythics til I heard my friends complain about how much it sucks pugging them now. Thankfully the delves are there. Tho knowing Blizzard they will decide not to upgrade the gear in higher delves, in future seasons. To MAKE it so you need to do heroic raids or Mythics... They seem to see what people don't really want to do and push you to need to do it for gear. Or other things you play the game for.

[@truecrimecafe90]

This. I'm at ilvl 605 and climbing on my main (spent a lot of time leveling alts thanks to the XP buffs from the anniversary event) and have not run a single key other than an M0. Honestly the M0 was so difficult that I'm not interested in doing any more. If that means I don't get a much higher ilvl that's fine with me since I'm not doing keys anyway and am not a fan of raiding.

[@Mr-qt4xr]

​@@truecrimecafe90 My Hunter is 613 ilvl just from delves. If I played a lot more I could get get 620 with crest upgrades which is not far off from someone who raids heroic every week. Only mythic raiders can get better gear. Delves are amazing for people like us who don't want to raid.

[@VDHmain]

The M+ numbers are expected to be lower because many people who were only doing keys up to 10 got pushed out of the M+ ladder. Many, if not most of them, stopped engaging with M+ completely.

[@FAMIB]

This.

[@htowndood]

I have never done a mythic dungeon in retail. I only tried them during Remix because I wasn't gonna get bullied out of the group.

[@VDHmain]

@@htowndood Panda remix was a complete joke though. Barely the same game. M+ is fine, don't listen to doomers. I've literally never seen any bullying in 450 keys this season. Most of the people screaming toxicity are the toxic people themselves.

[@jdp2571]

I'm one of em. Not re subbing. Doubt I'll be back.

[@borga6566]

@@VDHmain Agreed. In my experiences in plenty of other seasons as well, toxicity in M+ exists but I don't think its nearly as common as people make it out to be. I think what happens more is that, as you become more experienced, you may become a little frustrated with other people's inexperience. But hey, that's why its really important to be very patient with pugs and if you don't have the patience with rando's then just play with friends.

[@mspally9542]

I’d suggest that another reason m+ is down because anyone needing to gear up fast for raids chose delves instead. Also, a lot of the runs would be for upgrade tokens so people are choosing the shorter ones because m+ isn’t necessarily their goal anyway

[@toffe5273]

There's one thing to note about m+ - right now it literally is harder because you removed lvl 1-10 from the pool and moved it down to base mythic. I would also assume this means theres more people who stay out of keys because they dont have the capacity for keys. this both means that completion rate would go down cause the easier keys arent part of the pool+ the overall number of keys run would also go down.

[@ninjatvlv6101]

The difficulty isn't the issue. People opted out once getting crests or myth trac gear was gated by a massive skill increase and picky as hell player that it got the point banning leavers became a thing. That right there says a lot. Soon as u put the gotta kill urself to do this content people just don't care anymore. On top of high end raiders and key runners are telling blizz this season is hot garbage

[@FillipikPlaysCZ]

ppl complain its ez and nothing to do

[@melissakampers]

I noticed for the last two weeks that fewer guildies log in to do content. Most people have done the raids, got the gear and did the 20th anniversary stuff and only a few log in to do the puzzles for the Fel Cycle.

[@rolandparnaso4612]

You also need to take into account players that ❤ leveling alts. It’s the most fun I have had ever.

[@litebkt]

I enjoy leveling alts more than just about anything else. 😊

[@Ghust19]

Classic, whenever I level a class of some race I find a one I want to play more in that particular time and I level new one. Hard to count how many mages I’ve leveled just to level new one next patch 😂

[@carlstahl3000]

M+ sucks for the time/effort you invest to the reward given. I get 50 gold but have over 1k in repairs so now I have to do world quests, farm rocks or buy tokens. Laaaaame.

[@mitracia12]

I mean, if that's your m+ experience you are doing everything wrong.

[@carlstahl3000]

​@@mitracia12pugging 10's. Try it. It's amazing.

[@vessar1571]

@@mitracia12 bro I've ran Grim Batol over 80 times on my hunter for Skardyn's Grace and I still don't have it. The system is flawed, and I personally enjoy m+ but that's wild to me.

[@courtesan8784]

@@vessar1571 Ofc its a hunter player. lmfao.

[@vessar1571]

@@courtesan8784 i main fdk but yea, my alt has 0 luck with that trinket lmao

[@Zardeon]

"People do often like hard, punishing games, those are played all the time." Yeah, but those games are actually fair and rewarding, while m+ actively punishes you for failing and wastes your time. If you try a really hard Hades challenge and fail you just die and go again, in m+ you're punished for dying and probably won't get the reward you were there for.

[@nlmuaddib]

I don't think playing Elden Ring as 20 people coop would have the same charm.

[@FillipikPlaysCZ]

or just play the game for fun and sto mindlessly chasing the nect reward like zoomer doomer monkey?

[@Laerrus999]

Delves have been a bright point for me this expansion. I am getting to play in instanced content that is roughly equivalent to the challenge of TBC heroic dungeons, just without all the toxicity of the modern M+ scene.

[@seanlitel7779]

The only "planning" I'm doing for mythic siege of boralus is that I'm planning on sitting out.

[@zpokie123]

Shy? Its one of the easiest dungeons

[@evilplatypus665]

It is a pog dungeon. It wasn’t even easy in bfa.

[@Robin...222]

What is wrong about that dungeon? One of the easiest ones to complete.

[@AndrewH9999]

All the idiots in your comments like "why it's the easiest dungeon" yeah thats nice, it's not fun to play though. In fact it's quite ass.

[@GodOfWar05100]

@@AndrewH9999 I did on +12 a month ago as a 615 healer, you have no excuse dude

[@jct-jx5st]

one point missed when talking about Sarkareth and Fyrakk is both of those bosses dropped legendaries

[@deenman23]

the ring is a mini legendery:D

[@daami7100]

@@deenman23 a ring? there were same rings whole DF expansion too. a weapon is way more attractive + its a skin.

[@havardgjerseth2202]

I get the feeling the most vocal critics complain about lack of content...am I the only one who feel there is too much content? I have been doing dungeons, lots of delves, way too many world quests and I suddenly feel like I have hit a wall. The game suddenly feel like a chore and I can't make myself log on. The anniversary content landing while I was already busy with weekly quests and delves, might be part of my problem. Maybe it is because I feel things like getting the weekly chests feels "mandatory" and therefore starts to feel like a chore I have to do.

[@rogervanbaren]

you’re not alone! i get ptsd when i open my world map or log on on wednesdays and see the ocean of Q pop ups. 😂

[@Valvad0ss]

The renown shit is grindy

[@Ghust19]

I mean that’s a good problem, just gotta stop caring about doing everythjng and doing it slowly with what you want at the moment. WQs for example are not mandatory at all and I just do them when i want to do some open world, the reputations level itself when doing weeklies anyway

[@фанатКуплинова-ь1е]

Too much FOMO, not content.

[@DeDoubleDizzle]

Spot on, its not fun after the 50th or 100th tier 8 delve or timewalking dungeon. Trying the other content is alright, but i already know what i like the most and ive wore that out, like Korthia in shadowlands, like zerith mortis, Is that the other zone that had the cool saber mogs? Time for a break i guess

[@JulianaBlewett]

And you know they could have offered it for $30 or $25 and still made a ton of money but they had to be effing greedy about it.

[@ray_donovan_v4]

Possibly.. they may have sold more mounts at a lower price point.. 90 bucks is a bit outrageous.. audacious.. ludicrous.. preposterous! Says the mage that didn't hit level cap. What the hell did blizzard do to the crafting system? It's enough to make a tailor rage.

[@elstupido4575]

Haven't watched the vid yet but i just wanna throw this out there. Fire anyone who contributed to the m+ dungeon pool this season. You couldve asked 100,000 people if they wanted siege of boralus or necrotic wake back and atleast 99% of them would've said hell nah

[@aidanc9396]

I remember hating Siege of Boralus when it was current, and was dreading it this time around. But I've really come around to it, and out of all of the keys this season, apart from Mists, its probably the key I'm most confident doing.

[@genocyber4842]

It sucks, and they'd probably agree with you, but that's a whole dungeon (along with npc's, bosses, and their mechanics) they sunk time and energy into. It'll be kinda crazy of them to completely throw away a dungeon after its respective expansion ends.

[@Bunstonious]

The fact is, as a casual player all of my friends have given up M+ because it sucks (and we got to KSM all DF). They absolutely ruined the fun of mythic+ for us and we're struggling to find a reason to play.

[@jdp2571]

Yep

[@Robin...222]

You have friends? How you dont have fun in m+ then? It aint that hard with a friend group

[@Bunstonious]

@@Robin...222 Contrary to your condescending tone, sadly while there is quite a lot of them due to the fact that we're all adults with competing priorities we may only have between 2 - 4 online at a time. Not everyone who plays games on the internet can be available when you want them to be.

[@mitracia12]

Nothing was ruined at all, I suggest you find another group.

[@deathknight161]

delves past 8 are pointless and that's a huge flaw if they want people to do them

[@Mr-qt4xr]

But they already let you get Hero gear and you can solo a T11 in hero gear no problem. There would be no point in doing mythic raid or high level M+ if they gave better gear than that. I think the rewards should be better though, mounts, transmog and stuff like that but not gear.

[@deathknight161]

@@Mr-qt4xr how about a low chance of like idk a 619 hero that way you don't have to upgrade it

[@Babblesays]

I'm only interested in world content. I'm not a fan of the story lines of DF and TWW, as I prefer the old alliance vs horde concept/story. Just me, though.

[@theplansbydan]

Not just you.

[@TeeteringPeaks]

Why make a game when you can make a $90 mount

[@TeeteringPeaks]

@MadMattMaximus your not supporting the game, your supporting blizzard to cash shop more and more of the game. I'm just waiting for the $200 summoning stone mount.

[@SiriusBlack135]

@@MadMattMaximus Imagine defending greedy corpo tactics that destroy the integrity of a game

[@davidrobertson9174]

​@MadMattMaximus it might support "the game" but it's the opposite of supporting the gameplay. Gives blizzard no incentive to make more content if they can make more money reskinning mounts.

[@paro2210]

​​@@MadMattMaximusThe wow token permanently destroyed the games economy, and turned the game pay to win. It would have been way better if they increased their subscription, but instead they are dubble dipping. Having to pay a subscription for a pay to win game is insane in today's gameing landscape.

[@davidrobertson9174]

@MadMattMaximus when half the achievements are based on rng or grinding it's hardly "content". Just mindless farming at this stage. There's plenty of lore they could be cracking on with, pvp needs some fresh scenery, delves are getting stale already- so don't start on 40k achievement points lol

[@shardlake]

Some crazy stats! Surprised the 25 renown rate is low, I play, or thought I played semi-casual I have all at 25 - not touched M+ or Raids since my Guild basically did not return in sufficient numbers for TWW. Benn smashing the Delves and all the Secret finding stuff, still enjoying it so far.

[@Craznar]

I could never work out how to get Council reputation, I've struggled to get it to 20 and the others got to 25 without any effort weeks before.

[@TSLlol]

Thats exactly because of what you wrote. Nearly all content that is not M+ or raiding gives rep, if you're a player like me who's only interested in the challenging stuff, then your renown levels are still very realistically around 15

[@Robin...222]

Casuals go for renown. I cant bother with it cus it dont give rewards. So its a waste of time

[@bakedpt502]

Any PvP stats?

[@johnnyboyxxxo]

Yes, lots play for pvp only

[@frostgodx]

Would make too much sense to include here lol

[@LC-lw4vy]

This is interesting. The comments too. I’ve always thought that I played different from the norm. I don’t do dungeons or raids. I might do more delves but I only have so much time and one thing I am focusing on is raising my alts I care about - yeah some I have just because so I don’t do much with them. I putter around in the open world. Funny thing is that even though I thought I was “alone” in my play, there is always quite a few people doing the same thing. Oh well, currently, I am getting what I want from the game - entertainment - and that is what matters to me. And there is so so so much to do!

[@Eckythump]

I'm still subscribed to Wow, but I've checked out of Retail in favour of the new, fresh classic realms. BUT, when I was playing Retail, I avoided M+ like the plague. I did my delves to +8. I did some low level keys and did the raid, until I left my guild. Upon leaving that guild, I just found it hard to join another. Most guilds were already further ahead and I wasn't geared. I didn't want to do higher M+ as a pug to gear up for a Heroic guild so I just dropped back to casual play. Did my delves and logged off for the week.

[@ElsK81]

u got afraid and gave up, at this point it's not about damage if you can log 30-40 and just not troll mechanics repeatedly then u good for heroic

[@ElsK81]

and you can just pug heroic too

[@FillipikPlaysCZ]

put in the work or dont complain lol

[@mohammedghanem9228]

Mythic is what made me stop playing to be honest, I love the game and I did almost all the content I wanted to do and I was planning on continuing playing doing random stuff pvp etc and just crafting, but m+ was so shit that I just paused my sub.

[@panthrax555]

People like slightly easier fun games over slog challenge. What a fucking surprise.

[@Incenpilz]

Oh and about the raids: I haven't played a single raid this season (apart from a few LFRs). Simply because I somehow don't feel like that's where the fun lies. I actually find all the little things u can do a lot more fun in TWW.

[@ThornySnailPictures]

Damn if 544k active TWW accounts worldwide is true then that's really bad

[@usernamedove]

That’s what I was thinking! Is this what he’s saying?

[@AndrewH9999]

Gotta be one of the lowest player metrics wow had ever had.

[@kurrwa]

Well let's assume avarage player age is around 30-40 I bet so still good number.

[@FillipikPlaysCZ]

@@kurrwadont listen to these doomers full of hatred

[@ablecdn1565]

Used to be 10 mil plus for wotlk and Cata right.

[@TOX1Cparadise]

The chapters are dishonest. The ad ends and the chapter actually begins at 2:34

[@aorelain]

As he is over all, rage bait, click bait etc

[@DarbitheKnight]

I feel like I’d be more into the game if professions weren’t so complex. The fact I can only craft one good item that I had to use all my knowledge points on feels more like a punishment

[@EnhancedNightmare]

I can tell what I do. I'm returning player and I just unlocked TWW to do the anniversary quests. Right now I'm working through dragonflight, legion, cata etc. Mostly I'm unlocking cool stuff like druid forms, heritage armour, new races. I'm going slow, since I enjoy this stuff so far. I had a lot of trouble with scaling, some technical issues with GPU, I had to work a week to have my interface organised lol.

[@EnhancedNightmare]

I might do M+ after I find solution to my GPU breaking on bosses....

[@brandonk3385]

What issues/GPU do you have? It's pretty hard to be GPU limited in wow with any semi recent cards. CPU is far more likely to affect your performance.

[@lurk_e]

i think the game would benefit more if it were easier for people to get closer to 639 ivl. i feel like alot of people get lost in the 590-610 range and kind of give up and will cancel their sub and just wait for catch up in the new season

[@EpicCrust]

So everyone just gets gear and there’s no need to do any content or push anything higher because it’s all on baby mode!

[@Sly_404]

You can get to full heroic gear only doing ST content (delves). What else you want to get for relatively low difficulty content?

[@Dadbot]

That wouldnt separate the good players from the bad players at all. And you wind up with a 5 man group geared for hard content but can’t complete it because they lack the skill. Instead, players are forced to push to be better. Rewarding them with better gear when they are. Aka, get good kid.

[@spunkin49]

this is something ive been thinking about for a few years now.... the max ilvl should be attainable by everyone, but the TIER BONUS shouldnt be the same. my idea is that the content you do should give you a bonus specific to that content, kind of how pvp gear increases your ilvl when you are in a pvp scenario, making it (generally) the best gear to have for pvp. imo, since ilvl is the main source of progression post leveling, it definitely should be possible for anyone to cap it, but again, the actual bonuses should be content specific. no it does not make sense for a world quester to be as strong as a mythic raider, or even a +20 m+'r, but why should the ilvl itself be the thing that sets them apart? why not something more significant like a tier bonus? what do you guys think?

[@jamesgeorge4687]

​@@Dadbotwhich is what you have now and why keys are so toxic. These people thing gear means skill and the fuck everyone's keys. Delves have made m plus that much more toxic

[@h347h]

Hot take this expansion isn't fun. People were just leveling characters so they could do the 20th anniversary event. (Me)

[@WhiteWolfx22]

@@MadMattMaximus the free 20%xp that helps for alt leveling

[@h347h]

@MadMattMaximus Because you need to unlock all the activities that were initially announced rewarding bronze tokens by finishing the campaign. So pretty standard.

[@h347h]

@MadMattMaximus I didn't say any they were leveling multiple characters. I said that people were leveling their characters. I.E. their one main.

[@generaltim494]

Delves need more love and remove gear cap for it's vault

[@hundy8978]

They need to be a fully implemented and improved system. They are good and would hate to see them die this expansion.

[@ultralance7470]

@@hundy8978agreed delves are the future of solo content and they really should not let them go behind they’re fun and give decent rewards like rep too

[@generaltim494]

@@ultralance7470 they give rep alrdy but only once a week for each faction

[@saphrix4587]

I’d rather do Torghast over delves. At least in Torghast the abilities you got were more plentiful and better.

[@Actionandy98]

Retail has nothing to do with an mmorpg anymore. i switched to classic and instantly reconized what i was missing.

[@NotClosedMinded]

If they could make classic with the retail graphics and all the rewards i collected over the years, then sure, i might play classic over retail.

[@Brewbear313]

For real man. Classic is great cause it’s one world, no scaling, and there’s a lot of mmorpg elements. It’s simpler but in a good way. If they just keep cycling vanilla to wotlk, I’ll just live here forever. I do love MoP though and can’t wait for that.

[@merkkenem]

same thing happened to me. Holiday hit i had some free time and rolled on a classic hardcore. i have no desire to log into TWW anymore.

[@unrealeck]

@@NotClosedMinded If you kept all the rewards it would diminish what was part of pre-expansion WoW or even WoW around pre-Cataclysm where you had to join a good guild to get stuff that was eye-catching and unique looking. Gear and mounts used to be recognisable and some were rare to see. There's no sense of recognition, uniqueness or value in the game now. Porting all the stuff that's piss easy to get back into classic would ruin part of what classic is.

[@noestusallowed5203]

I stopped playing again WoW because queueing for m+ (which is the only content I like to do) is just miserable. I've done it as a DPS, Healer AND as a Tank and the pug experience is just awful. Getting to a group in itself is already a pain, no matter the role (as a healer tends to be easier as they cannot be as picky), but the higher the key the worst it gets. I get it, you're looking for a specific combination or at least some minimum IO, however I still get declined even tho my IO is higher than the PL's over and over. Not only that, even if we get to a party, the higher the key the more likely it will get bricked. Some people with 2k+ IO just can't do the most basic mechanics and its absoluterly scary how many DPS and tanks don't know what their abilities actually do. The IO system is in itself failing us and, tbh, I can't think of a better way... I tried tirelessly to find a guild or even a closed group to run keys with but most of the time I need to pug things so most of my time is spent looking for groups and then bricking keys because someone just can't do their part. Yea, pugging is hell.

[@jdp2571]

Not to mention what they did to tanks. I only play tank anymore. Bdk has been horrible.

[@megyskermike]

IO was a terrible mistake, and I've thought that from the start. There's entirely too much bias for those more active. Unless it's dramatically changed to account for personal skill/proper ability usage, it's entirely pointless and results in a frequently negative gaming experience. Left after BFA, saw how bad the experience could be for solo players and never want to go back. Not saying I have an alternative, but it's too risky to waste your time and life doing things you hate.

[@mitracia12]

Well, find a community.

[@noestusallowed5203]

@@mitracia12 Tried, most of the time feels bad too imo

[@teej143]

I petition to replace Ion. I’m sure he’s a good guy, but he’s been at the helm of the game for too long and so many things that made WoW “bad” happened during his watch, if not directly signed off by him.

[@86Corvus]

And holy,cause she has no idea about appealing to 30+ male gamers and turns women into fruit.or at least oversees that change and doesnt reverse it.

[@FillipikPlaysCZ]

yeah and add someone that has never even played the game, sure you ppl dont fckin know what u want, u will complain regardless

[@Digzitify]

Just gotta say... reputation-farm has got to be the most tedious thing to do, since it's not at all rewarding. Why would anyone get out of their way to farm it? I never have, I never will. ONLY did back in TBC when I needed the shoulder enchant from Aldor.

[@no-budhee6657]

Scrap M+ and just have mythic dungeons. Can use standard dungeons scaled up or create one that a specifically for mythic level. Give them hard mechanics comparable to raiding but more punishing due to the lack of needing to coordinate 10+ people. Give a chance to drop hero gear from every boss (personal loot) and half of the highest level crests needed to upgrade at the end of the dungeon. Weekly lockout per dungeon. No timers. No keys. Mythic raiding, which is the true hardest content in the game becomes the source of the highest level gear (outside of upgrading the hero). Have the achievement to clear the mythic raid give a unique appearance of the tier sets.

[@fleromor]

I think the delvers dirigible numbers come from it being behind a few quests that people might skip over if they don't know that it gives the mount

[@MidWitPride]

Yeah, quite a few people drop everything once they hit max level and start doing their favorite activity.

[@Craznar]

I just have no interest in it at all, it is ugly and didn't bother getting it.

[@duhg599]

I was in a hardcore raiding guild during Vanilla, TBC, Wrath, and Cata. Now I’m perfectly happy being a casual player doing Delves. I have no interest in Mythic+, and I wouldn’t go back to the raiding lifestyle even if Delves didn’t exist.

[@BeefLoverMan]

Love the concept of Delves, but I don't see why gear is capped at t8 - which is also way too easy for the gear you get. I sometimes play a t11 just for fun to fill my vault, but it feels shit to get nothing from it. And t8 is absolute faceroll at ilevel 614. To be frank it's been faceroll since 590... I really don't understand why they won't give us ACTUALLY hard single player content.

[@frozby5973]

Gear up a shadow priest and try doing a t8 delve in 580 gear. Its not about the content being easy its you playing a retri paladin or a tank who facerolls solo/world content with ease... I had to be over 610 to be somewhat comfortable in t8 delves as shadow... 580 was nearly impossible to survive early on

[@roberthaines8951]

It's more of a class issue than a gear issue, some classes have an easier time with solo content than others.

[@kurrwa]

warlock for solo dvelse is easy walk but boring doing alone

[@adimio]

You have to consider last boss kill numbers on all of the selling that blizzard actually legalized as long as it’s gold. I see some players and guilds that are actually logging the raids with hundreds of silken court and queen kills per week on heroic difficulty.

[@denniswolf8685]

The success rate numbers are highly flawed tho. 1-10 keys are one of the most runner keys and the easiest so ofc DF s3 will have a higher success % as it literally has a lower skill floor becouse there are easier dungeons that a lot of people do.

[@nonyabiziness]

I think a big reason M+ dropped drastically is the reward is not worth it. If you were to make a new character starting today and you are someone who can do all vaults at 10 you still wouldnt catch up in gear for almost a month and a half if not more and with the amount of fluctuations of nerf/buff that blizzard has done it feels really bad.

[@TheLostBear78]

Got the 25 rep on all factions, and have beaten a tier 10 Delv. Beaten ? Zekvir. But not ?? Zekvir, and since my guild died early during Dragonflight, I haven't run a single M+ in over a couple of years. Wish I could, but the thought of pugging M+ is not appealing. My hunter is hard stuck at 619 IL now I guess. Will take forever to get any more upgrade tokens.

[@dr3armer]

M+ being hard and punishing would be great if the success of the run depended 100% on me. Its frustrating when you have people who clearly arent ready for the key level theyre queuing for try to get carried for free.

[@86Corvus]

Make your own groups.this is an mmo .deal with it

[@zenenzarcon]

Feels like you're ignoring the tons of players who don't really play much with others, or do a whole lot of group content. I know it's counter intuitive, but there are many who play MMO's for the sheer amount of content, not for the multiplayer aspect.

[@WhiteWolfx22]

As a newish player that doesn't do hardcore/stressful content, i level Alts, collect old things for fun. I dont do m+ or heroics. i just chill in old content for the story/collectibles and to level alts. IF gearing wasn't necessary and i only played one class, i would only play at season starts or not much at all. but im on everyday so yeah...

[@Fyuture]

I don't care about raiding, but the World feels so empty and irrelevant, although it is so beautiful. Rushing with your dragon from A to B, spamming AoE spells, running around without really knowing what you should do next, can't feel my progress, no social interactions with people like back in WoW. Sad enough, that only WoW Classic Hardcore can give me all this at the moment. Somehow it doesn't feel right, though. :( - Hopefully Blizzard will bring back the mmo-RPG- back very soon

[@kurrwa]

times are changing you are getting old and you are living in the past. Let's be honest, how many new players start to playing WoW ? I don't think much, younger generations prefer other type games and they are fuel for game exististance. WoW player base gonna keep shrinking until only hard core players will stay

[@weetigo]

Great analysis. One of the issues right now is that there's no transition for Delve 8 players to Mythic+. Mythic dungeons don't scale like old, so they are much more punishing early on, and the rewards are no draw if you are geared to 8 delves.

[@bartmano1]

I didn’t play dragon flight , haven’t done anything but level to max since wotlk original, friend convinced me to come back to retail and I have loved every second of it, makes me think people were just being overly critical of passed expansions, cause tww is great IMO

[@FillipikPlaysCZ]

exactly these ppl played for 10k hours which is insane and still conplain lol, the game is nice and has so much to do, these ppl are just depressed doomers

[@Fillos]

I guess the higher difficulty of M+, affects the raid completion rate, since the higher Weekly Vault gear from M+, helps progression tremendously.

[@mishiara5499]

Ppl like hard games, but not in a game that is depending on you progressing/achieving things to reach higher levels of the content - especially when its not the fault if you but someone else.

[@FishboyAbzu]

Yeah even casual gamers can enjoy harder content when they can do it at their own pace and not feel forced to do it.

[@VainEldritch]

And this is why M+ as it is is a terrible idea.

[@Turbotef]

This is me and why I only stick to Delves, but seeing that Horrific Visions are coming back excites me greatly!

[@janzizka9963]

I think the anniversary could majorly influence the numbers here. Many people use it to easily level-up tons of alts and hoard tons of Timewalk Badges and Marks of Honor, not having that much time to acually do what the expansion has to offer.

[@shadowrider7072]

I don't like timed mythics... never have, never will. I prefer old school dungeons like in vanilla, cata, and wrath. The other problem is one Blizzard can't fix, and it's the changing demigraphics and behaviors of different generations of people. I'm an old millenial, borderline GenX, and the game was just more social back then. Now everyone's brain is rotten from tick tock and overstimulation, and nobody talks unless it's to insult each other. I'll go back to my single player games and non-video gaming hobbies.

[@ForOne814]

The game was more social back then, because back then, people without friends played MMOs and games in general. But now, people play games with their friends - they don't need to socialize with randoms.

[@86Corvus]

If they removed timer youd just get difficulty scaling dungeons, which would be superior

[@marcvsaurelius7570]

Its a weird cycle of, delves giving good enough gear that people don't need to even do anything below a 4 for runed, but keys are also harder, so people get frustrated and don't learn the dungeons on easier difficulties, which means they get stuck between wasting time getting rewards they don't need to learn, or they waste time failing keys because they can't handle the higher levels yet, so they just don't play. So I think its just kind of a perfect storm of frustration. I think the difficulty is good and people will settle into it and get better at the game, I think the best thing to do is just stop depleting keys.

[@deminionzz]

i only do lfr/lfd and single player content, also not part of any guild on my 20+ lvl 80s and youll never find meeee...

[@radikmcphilimy9453]

gotta take in account that bis lists now are mostly raid equip, while df was a lot of dungeon items

[@fran117]

Its funny how the player base sentiment a decade ago is the opposite of what we have now. We have "WoW became too ez" for the longest time, and now omg wow is too hard

[@FullMetal_Badger]

I got 2.5k score in M+ and did the heroic raid, collected all the new anniversary sets. I got kinda bored so I’ve been playing the new fresh servers on classic.

[@borisfrlic]

It's baffling to me how - after all this cash - they won't remake the most basic things for the playerbase like redoing the classic racial and class mounts.

[@jackalclone1]

People who are feeling burnt out on the standard gameplay loop should hop into the secret finding Discord and start in on the current efforts to solve the Felcycle secret. Awesome sense of community, and presents a truly unique way to experience the whole world that makes you re-appreciate the WORLD of Warcraft, in a better way that celebrates the game's 20th anniversary better than the actual event!

[@Daniel----]

for this money they should improve this game and not ruin it

[@фанатКуплинова-ь1е]

They are improving the game by making it moresafe and inclusive

[@trixdream]

Covid time was wild. You had no problems finding people to play with. I enjoyed it quite alot actually.

[@JaysonBucy]

This is totally just my opinion but it feels like WoW keeps loosing the community. Not like LFG/LFR but actually knowing the people you're playing with. Up through Cata I remember having to be in an active guild to do the fun stuff, having to work with people weekly to move forward. After that everyone started moving to more and more solo content. Playing with yourself is only fun for so long (pun intended).

[@Saimeren]

Blizz taking away the progression tiers of M+ didn't help their cause. You need the 2-10 levels. If they wanted to get rid of some in order to shrink the amount of key levels, they should have taken out every other level. 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20. It still leaves you with the same number of key levels, but it keeps those progression levels. Because expecting someone new to M+, or new to gearing to jump into what is essentially a +10 right from the jump is insane. The jump from M0 to M2 (Which is basically M2 to M10 in the old system) is a crazy jump. There's no progression there.

[@alcidestavares9565]

i have a friend that have 2000 M+, and 1700+ pvp, but he till today dont even do the campain on the khaz algar map

[@hectornieves6353]

I'm in this club as well, but I'll get to it eventually!

[@Raz.94]

Im in the same boat. Cleared normal Nerubar a few times, 2300+ in M+ almost 1700 in pvp. Almost fully heroic geared. Havent finished campaign lol.

[@cashe7536]

there's a campaign?

[@drost47]

Ok, for starters, I'm gonna say it loud for the people in the back. Most people are poor. Most people didn't hunker down during the pandemic. Most people were "essential". Most people didn't get sudden freetime to play wow. Stop acting like it wasn't actually a small percentage of people who got to hunker down. But ya, alot of people I know are actually coming back to do basically lore master with a group of friends through old content, only doing the campaign to get the the gear in the secound half. I know a bunch are redoing legion right now because the wow 30th, alot of those look cool with the upgraded legion weapons

[@captenclown]

alot of ppl would be there... ...if the game was good but it isnt anymore.

[@sabretoothau]

Fortified and tyrannical on 10+ is too much. The goal of me and my friends each season is to get the mount and get the portals. I have no idea how we're going to get the portals this season - the difficulty plus so many people having quit is causing us to struggle. I could take up tanking but then there's a whole new perspective I'd have to learn the game from, and I just don't have the time nor inclination. Devs forgot to keep M+ fun.

[@NighDarke]

It would be nice if blizz stopped trying to shove mythic+ down our throats. No, we don't want to do mythic+. Stop it already.

[@Zaroth66]

Well, a factor that's hard to quantify with a raid progression is that each season it gets easier even if the raid is the same difficulty because everyone has way higher secondary stats overall instead of just main stat.

[@Mezer_PoE]

As a returning player, I'm not a fan of old dungeons being shoe horned into M+. I want to do the NEW dungeons I haven't played in M+, not old dungeons I've done a thousand times already. Considering WoW isn't getting a lot of new players, it feels odd to me. I'm already burnt out from Cata dungeons from playing so much in 2011 why do I have to do them again but in a way that's not balanced for 2024? Idk maybe it's just me but I'm sick of it that I don't touch M+ anymore. Hoping Delves get more love cause I very much enjoy it

[@Junebug89]

Because if they only have new dungeons in the m+ roster, then you do mostly the same dungeons for the entire 3-4 seasons of an expansion, and THAT gets tiresome. I think this is a good approach. Half of the dungeons are new, and then other half of the new dungeons will be in the next season. Besides, revisiting old dungeons can be fun, and I wouldn't think you are still burned out on them from doing them 13 years ago. (Also grim batol is actually balanced for 2024, old dungeons that are retrofitted for m+ do get significant changes).

[@xEternelz]

Another thing to consider is the gatekeeping there is with PuG for heroic&mythic raids on Nerubar, makes it very hard to do a run which will take down the queen when you haven't yet

[@niixten2349]

2:51 hey, that’s me 😅

[@dirusj4006]

For raid I think you forgot about the buff. A slowly stacking buff to damage and healing is effectively a nerf to the entire raid.

[@leonardceres9061]

Listen, it’s my hopes that with the cash boost from the bruteOsaur mount that maybe they could roll some of that into the actual game with regards to development. I understand a game/business has to maintain a certain profit margin, but if they can show that the game can earn this kind of money then maybe it will greenlight some other projects

[@jdp2571]

Loooooooool

[@leonardceres9061]

@@jdp2571 that's why it's a hope. Not a wish.

[@knightofchrist1683]

Yeah, when they changed M+ it became too hard to get into a group, took much longer to complete, and became just much harder in general. I understand they wanted to give heroics and M0 their proper place but something is wrong when I’m waiting about as long to get into a +3 group as it takes to actually run it. Mythics were fun in DF3 because it was something those of us with less time could do and still progress at a decent rate - run a couple with your buddies after work before the wife gets home as opposed to having to dedicate and schedule time for raiding. It was intrinsically more casual but still felt like a core part of endgame WoW. It’s really upsetting because now it’s funneled me into delves as a single player experience (they are fine, but for me personally they feel like a supplement rather than the main course) and at this point I’d rather just play something else entirely. Tldr take mythic scaling back to how it was or maybe only scale it by about 50% more of how it was in DF3 compared to now.

[@paso7943]

Dungeon run is one of the core DNA of World of warcraft. and making thing difficult just to make it difficult is not fun. it killes the fun. WOW is a MMO. not an E-sport. and by doing dungeon run not fun is killing the wow.

[@1988antenne]

numbers dont say much cause of delves. new m+ is way harder then ever before and alot of people just dont wanna go through that, so they go delves. tww is a really nice addon and i dont think we have to worry about player numbers anytime soon.

[@KoiaKiss]

I hate m+, doing a 10 key and get no loot for all that effort 10x in a row. To top it off the vault rewards are never what you need, just the same stuff over and over. M+ is a sensory overload clusterfuck of crap getting shot your way, my brain is tired after doing just one +10 key and the chance of getting the loot you need is way too small. Doing a delve is more rewarding in comparison and a lot easier too.

[@mitracia12]

You are gravely exaggerating. I suggest you actually play the game before commenting nonsense.

[@SlowDancer]

My best recent "dungeons with bros" experiences are all from coop games. Helldivers, Deep Rock, Monster Hunter, Vermintide...

[@JONATHANP1619]

Too much grindy content with a weekly cap. It's not a game anymore, it's a job.

[@aoprism2834]

I'm lazy, when I couldn't find a M+ group that would take me after a few occasions trying, I quit. There's other competitive games I can play with matchmaking that WoW can't give, even if they're a different genre. Maybe they should try matchmaking with an MMR system, but I'm guessing queues would be too long.

[@JeffreyBodenstein]

$90 was way too much.. I can not believe that many people would pay that.. Insanely eye raising

[@skecchi3201]

Some of us bought it with gold. There's no way I would drop $90 on a mount, however it was less than 2m gold (which wasn't that difficult to farm up over the years.)

[@yindyarxvb8280]

It was dropped to clear out bnet balances. Very few actually bought with 90 usd

[@leonardceres9061]

There have been several instances in the past that I had wished I had one of those auction mounts. To save a bit of time going back to the AH. I will admit that since the anniversary event, I rarely have to go to the auction house except to sell a few items here and there, but it is still useful. $90 is a good amount of money but I don’t really buy that much stuff from the game so to me it was just like spoiling myself a little bit.

[@Grouwdi]

I don't use my real money to pay for my sub/expansions. I REFUSE to give these employees and company my money.

[@jeroen5736]

i don't do mythics but if it was possible to queu for , like with heroics...

[@ElloaWendy]

Please no. Match Making system is a disaster. The LFG tool works really well, it's pretty fast and it allow players to finely tune their research. I mostly have bad experiences through the Match Making system. This would not go well with Mythics as it requeire the group to communicate and organise.

[@zerbios]

​​@@ElloaWendy i mean why not try it so that you can que or do LFG i think many people that wait for an invite 30mins or so because they dont play meta would be happy and the others could do it normaly. They try many new things in the last couple of months so its worth a try

[@dogdog2098]

M+ is obnoxious as fuck. Once you get past +7 it’s starts to become incredibly unfun and high stakes. Most people do it for gear for raiding and then never look back

[@chubbymochinyc]

im just gonna say the honest truth here : More keys are failing now because the quality of players is significantly different than it was many, many years ago.More keys are failing now because the quality of players is significantly different than it was many, many years ago. There are no more quality players. 80% of the people who sign up for my keys are from Ragnaros, Quelthalas, Azralon... or they're the secret Rag that migrated to Stormrage / Illidan/ Area 52. You can always tell because they have an accent letter in their name. It's almost as bad as S4 from dragonflight, where every key was a struggle bus.

[@zenenzarcon]

I'd wager that it's also really unwelcoming so many just get turned off to it instead of investing to improve.

[@Robin...222]

You are not a quality player either if you keep queueing up with them. Just get good and you will play with the quality players

[@babylettuce]

Do you know xenophoby is a hate crime? You do realize that there are bad players on all realms, and no, they are not "latinos undercover". These are just the servers you decided to remember and hold a grudge on because you have to blame someone. Maybe the problem is you.