Mythic+ Is Unfixable, And Its Tearing WoW Apart

[@BellularGaming]

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[@fencingfireferret1188]

YOU'RE TEARING US APART LISA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@Equossanos]

For some reason I can't comment in my own post on your videos is that your doing or KZbin?

[@CarlosSpicyweiner-iv8mq]

You talk about meta like its a narrow difference and doesnt matter in low keys but its much much worse than that. Elemental Shamans are better healers than resto Druids, even in low keys, yes its just that bad. There is that much of a difference. YOu dont seem to understand that a 4 is just as difficult as an 8 because of gear and skill levels of people who play at lower levels. not to mention factors like internets speeds and computers. Not everyone can afford a high level gaming computer. You said right here "the goal of wow is to get more gear" @ 9:50 you couldnt be more out of touch with the player base. The issue is that delvs should allow us to progress as much as any other content. It stops at heroic at the most 619. if we want better gear we have to do different content. so make delvs more rewarding. not less.

[@MadMattMaximus]

Tanks and healers do twice the work as dps.... Healing and tanking is boring and they get blamed for everything but twice as much work... laughable.

[@Annyoning]

@@MadMattMaximus I bet if they add damage downs wont be so funny then.

[@arryngaming4126]

I have tanked (Prot Paladin) from day one of this Season. My only take is this: punishments are excessive. The only punishment that should exist is that if you don't time your key, it doesn't advance to the next tier. That's it. Remove punishments and 99% of the toxicity will evaporate and ppl can focus on just having fun.

[@donna589]

Exactly

[@acers09]

Timer should be an affix instead of the 15 second deaths

[@shamba4406]

@@acers09that is the foundation of mythic+, making it an affix is stupid

[@MrBIGFAILz]

Yeah maybe if the key didn’t deplete and they let u reroll it regardless people would be like hey let’s go again and try it. Maybe

[@Vash.Baldeus]

And put penalties on repeat-leavers.

[@snakesson]

The worst part of it is doing 3-4 dungeons, approx 30 minutes per dungeon and getting that sweet sweet 56 gold at the end. 30 minutes. 56 gold. My repairs are in hundreds without even dying. Blizzard, pls.

[@amalayum]

But that is the point, these are all aggressive gold sinks to try and curb inflation because of their stupid WoW token and million dollar mounts now...

[@elementalism5799]

😅

[@protodani]

Yes thats basically a slap in the face. And i aint getting slapped by a blizzard virgin employee living in his moms basement

[@xXxGUZxXx]

I got ksm 2k as tank this season and didn’t get a single upgrade from the end chests. Feels really bad.

[@1231ababc]

i did zero craft items this expansion and entered it with 550k gold. now im sitting on 195k gold with 637 ilv more than 50% of it gone to repairs

[@Dave-xe3yi]

Mythic + incentivises toxic behavior, Don't take people you don't know or you rip your key, don't stay in a dungeon if people fuck up because it wastes your time, not able to get your io score up right from day one? Don't expect a chance to prove your self later. The whole thing is just garbage, nothing about the experience rewards cooperation, understanding, or giving people a chance.

[@lostheboss7938]

Lmfao how does the system itself incentivise toxic behavior? What you are talking about is the community being toxic, which it was always be. The same thing for raiding. You cant keep up you get kicked. Dont be bad. Idk why its hard difficult for people to understand, not all the content and gear is meant for you to waltz through

[@Faude18]

I came back to the game during the Shadowlands covid boom and the only time i really enjoyed M+ was during the single digit keys or playing with some very forgiving guild mates.

[@k1ndr3dspirits]

@@lostheboss7938 You could have just said “git gud” 🙄

[@slavsthetics2447]

Blizzard made it toxic and they are punishing (suspending) people leaving, wasting your time and everything you named. It's their own fault their system fucking sucks.

[@Guy2520-s1x]

The problem is WoW players are way too sensitive. I left your group so what move on.

[@ternel]

The fact blizz nerfed tanks to make the role even harder and with less agency was a criminally horrible decision. Now the few tanks out there only play with their pre-made groups or are done early with the system.

[@nrf82]

Dude come on. I am a new player in a 20 year old game and literally AFKing 8's and 9s with prot warr no problem at all. Press defensive and watch a couple videos for routes and positioning. Can it be improved? Yes, absolutely. But what is exactly your point here?

[@UltimateGamerCC]

@@nrf82 try another Tank, Prot Warr is Beginner Mode, was even that way BEFORE Tanks got nerfed...

[@nrf82]

@@UltimateGamerCC I heard prot paladin is even more powerful. I'm not saying the system is perfect, but M+ is meant to be challenging, and I don't feel tanking is more punishing than dps by any means. I think a lot of tanks just don't like the role, or the game, and get this "Im doin the hard work" mentality. Me personally I feel carried by healers baby sitting me and DPS figuring out how to deal damage while staying alive. I honestly think videos like this mostly appeal to a hardcore burnout player base.

[@shifts-in-light]

​@@nrf82you're a new player ? Then you're lacking the perspective & experience of older seasons lol. Ofc you think that

[@ssv-y2q]

@@nrf82 What are you talking about prck? It was better before which is his point what??

[@jackfoster409]

I think most of the comments here can be accurately summarised with "Make it less miserable."

[@nrf82]

People that profesionally no-life this game since they are kids blaming Blizzard for the meta is just naive. The Meta is a tool to keep a rotation of viable classes so you're constantly pushed out of your comfort zone and the play loop continues. There will always be a meta. Stop trying to fight it like you're newcomers to the genre.

[@ssv-y2q]

No make it so people who wanna casually play and pug can't play at all. M+ like raiding has to be for the top 0.1% with their set groups that play wow all day

[@ssv-y2q]

Casuals not allowed

[@Krulfar]

​@@nrf82nobody is saying having metas is a problem, that's something that happens naturally in any game. Being severily punished if you don't make a meta group is part of the problem.

[@nrf82]

@@Krulfar but isn't it the natural outcome of a meta when pushing for the hardest content tho? How can you truly solve this? It's ok to not like it, but I think Blizzard makes it intentionally, and it's good for them in the long run.

[@Cj-mj4xg]

Make them like Delves. Once you beat a level. You can queue for it with a party. No keys. Just whichever level of any of them you want.

[@nullifye7816]

yeah i can barely work the key system and i sort of figured it out last expansion, i cant even imagine what its like for newer people

[@Zaroth66]

I mean they're not even following their own philosphy of what healing was supposed to be... What we were told: Our healing power is the same, the enemies are the same, but we all just have a ton more stamina. What we got: Instead it's healers are the same, tanks are weaker, we all have more stamina and the mobs hit harder than the stamina raise!

[@DanielG-z8r]

That's not true - healing is slower and less spikey than it usually is over the games history

[@Vidler13]

What I hate as a healer is, they keep increasing the DPS and the stam, but not the healing! This is the bs they started in DF and it's honestly so crap seeing your holy flashes or chain heals do sweet F A when there's a big burst of damage. Healers fault for not healing, but the damage has increased by 7 figures and so too has your party's health pools.

[@DJ_Treu]

As a 16 year tank - if youre fighting to keep people alive in an M+ .... its usually not your fault as the healer, its our fault as the tank for not paying enough attention to the floor / positioning / patrols to avoid too much damage. OR its on the dps for not staggering and causing 7 spells to hit the tank at once, no you cant heal that obviously but the average player needs to be told to do things that people who live and breathe M+ dont even think about while doing it.

[@theJoPanda]

​@@DJ_Treuman I hear you 100%. I still feel as healers we USED to be incredible and save the day with crazy reflexes and foreseeing... now it's a impossible task unless you Link Totem, which is the very only option available I feel

[@CarlosSpicyweiner-iv8mq]

not to mention the classes are so extremely unbalanced my Druid healer is worthless. everyone wants a Shaman, elemental Shamans are better healers than resto Druids. what the actual hell.

[@diamondsanchez224]

The community is the biggest hurdle for the tanks and healers I feel. One mistake from a tank or healer usually leads to getting flamed, which incentivizes them to just do solo content and not do Mythic+ at all. If Mythic+ players want more tanks and healers, they really just need to be nicer to them, especially since no one in M+ plays perfectly and had to start their key-filled journey somewhere.

[@ucipitalmapilary]

I agree. Just be nice to others and forgive small mistakes (any mistake is insignificant, cause it's a videogame) is the solution to the whole problem. Not crazy takes like "remove timer, remove key depletion, make mobs not dps, make loot free and everywhere (it already kinda is)"

[@jclbc]

Great video. One thing that kinda irks me is that all the talk around "bad players" tends to focus on people that don't know what they are doing or are bad at the game. I'd say that as a healer climbing the ranks, a big problem is also the players with a 3k IO main coming in on an alt, expecting everyone to know all the MDI routes and pulls, and pulling an entire hallway expecting everyone else to keep up. Keys like +5-8 aren't hard if people know what they are doing, but when you have hotshots pushing everyone beyond their limits (and quite often the limits of the hotshot's own gear) it's equally as toxic as a player that is terrible at the game.

[@bradyfereday6483]

They are running them like heroics like they did in the past. Yes I’m a good healer but the mass pulls and then into a boss is instant failure!

[@theJoPanda]

That s the same player that rushes to tank 150' afar from the drinking healer and doesn't pull back.

[@dsyy90210]

yeah that's fair

[@IvyTinwe]

That kind of behaviour is also common in normal dungeons (like Timewalking). People just pull everything and expect you to know that they're doing or when you're tanking, that you do it too no matter if you feel comfortable doing it. Timewalking and Heroics have no time limit? Why nag about five minutes more?

[@dsyy90210]

@@IvyTinwe on the other side of this... i can't lie, the feeling of speedrunning a dungeon of trivial difficulty is pretty satisfying. i won't do it if there's actual risk of wiping the group however.

[@SapTheseCasters]

The fact that the key gets depleted and downgraded is the problem. If I want to farm guilded crests the easiest way is to do a +8, simply because it's less difficult than a +9, so why would I do a +9 or +10 if I just want the crests? The problem is a depleted timer, or a leaver, on a +8 leaves you with a +7 key, which is almost useless in this case. Or maybe it's time to remove mythic+ in its entirety and get something new. We've been doing this since Legion. That was 8 years ago.

[@beejcarson]

Once delves dropped I walked way from Mythic+. So much less headaches and player bs.

[@steel5897]

Wait until you realize you can avoid all headaches from player bs by playing single player RPGs instead. Blew my mind!

[@Stu98765]

@@steel5897 Maybe people enjoy the lore and universe? God forbid.

[@Lynxwire]

Get gud

[@nrf82]

Too bad there tedious AF and useless for actually gearing.

[@Equossanos]

No skill you need to learn m+ you can't just go in and ask the rest of the group to carry you untill you get gud. You need to put in some effort before you go in. Imo selves should be removed from the game completely!

[@Individual467]

M+ just isn’t fun right now, and delves made me ignore it altogether this season. Then throw in that toxic ass community? Nah I’m good

[@ScottKent]

Just want to play some after work...with delves I can jump in, play, eat dinner, play some more and stop when I want. M+...sitting in a Queue, running over to the microwave, checking on the queue...5 minutes before I'm ready to call it a night the queue pops. Biggest problem I have with M+ is not being able to schedule it...best I can do is block out some time and hope it happens. Too much waste.

[@isenhart2920]

I gave up on mythic and focused on delves. Now, the only person who's at fault for any failure is mine alone. So what if it's not BiS, because the only reason for BiS is to do more mythics. I delve and raid, it's all I need

[@yunthi]

havent really played in a month or so. can you get mythic upgrade tokens from delves now? because without them normal or heroic gear is exactly the same. sure you can upgrade heroic gear higher but that doesnt matter unless you do mythic 8+ or mythic raids.

[@The0nlyy]

@@yunthiNothing has changed, not to mention delves are extremely easy and the rewards cap at +8 which can easily be done with 590 gear

[@MrJeremydb91]

Same boat - I wish they had harder delves to get even better gear from them

[@Sindragozer]

They need to make some kind of follower dungeon thing where you can practice M+ mechanics on top of getting rid of depletion. There are a lot of people who basically have to learn by doing. Even if you want to learn m+, it's rough as a player returning into a key squish, even if you do start at the bottom like you're supposed to. The mechanics go from basically irrelevant and unnoticeable to big problem very quickly. You're learning basically nothing in the lower keys. Even if you study the resources, you're not going to remember everything, and there's gonna be failure. It's often hard to tell exactly what went wrong, so that you can learn from it. It may indeed be rude to suck, but it's even more rude to flip out over a game

[@lukask4498]

Yea, players will not run followers dungeons for no reward just to learn. Not a bad idea but that's just not how ppl behave. Just look at LFR. That has rewards and players just walk in, ignores everything and expects completion.

[@avstzn]

playing tank or healer is just absolutely miserable right now

[@n3phelem549]

tank is hvaing the time of all time. Healers are the one swho are struggling to juggle everything. Healing, mechanics, dmg prepping, movement and movement based mechanics. All by themselves are just part of it, but this time? Most of the time, everything is dumping all on the healer at once. He has to do everything at the same time. Its brutal and you can feel that Blizz hates healers with everything they got

[@Krulfar]

​@@n3phelem549you never played tank if you really think that. Tanking was super fun last expansion, right now is a terrible experience. As expected by anyone that has a functional brain, nerfing tanks to help healers didn't help healers in any capacity, it just made tanking miserable too.

[@MadMattMaximus]

@@n3phelem549 On my server everyone is running around with an orange 2000 or higher M+ rating (TipTok will tell ya) wtf are all you people talking about. In fact, the reason I am not even doing M+ is because everyone already has that lame mount, its ugly and less special as more and more appear on it every day. I find it funny because most of you M+ runners cant even kill Mage Tower or Zekvir??. Im thinking the problem is you all. Not everyone is a Tempered Hero :( waaaaaaaa

[@1988antenne]

@@Krulfar i paly tank and he is right. right now i really enjoy it.

[@breakingbrad2129]

@@1988antenne Of course you do, because Pally tanks are the only tanks that FEEL like Dragonflight tanks and have insane output, survivability and utility. You're playing on easy mode for tanks. Swap to BrM or Guardian and let me know how it feels. Because from experience I can tell you, it sucks.

[@jsingle5]

I returned to retail at the start of Dragonflight after a two expansion hiatus, and went into mythic+ with the contrast between Legion's take (wherein it was more or less just a bonus activity for a weekly chest) and its modern rendition fresh in my mind. My decision to stubbornly play an off-meta spec at high level also shaped my experiences with the system a fair bit. What stuck out to me most was how much it punished failure, very often for reasons that felt entirely beyond my control. As above, I didn't play meta, so the only way I got the chance to play was to run my own key. Having it nuked down a level, especially when I hit the point where my only win condition was gaining rating, was a demoralizingly huge setback. Not only would I have to waste time grinding for another chance, I'd also spend it hoping I rolled the dungeon I needed and that I didn't get players that'd bomb it even further down in the process. I feel like that is also where a lot of the emergent toxicity/animosity between players come from: an innocent mistake can literally cost someone else hours of their day. Along with the above, I'm also of the opinion they've structured its difficulty poorly. Pugging doesn't quite give an accurate impression of what mythic+ is supposed to be, because a coordinated group addresses most of the issues inherent to playing solo. Class not good? Just roll another character. Bad or failed key? You've got four others to pull from. Is there a mechanic that'll wipe the group if you don't manage it properly? You've probably got comms going. The same kindof applies to wondering whether the people you're playing with know what they're doing-but even if they don't, learning doesn't really cost you anything. ...That said, limiting keys to five man groups puts a heavy restriction on potential comps, which will always favor classes that can do more or bring more. Worse, making survivability the benchmark for higher level keys only widens that gulf further. Some classes just don't have the tools to survive on their own past a certain point, whereas others like Paladin have answers to just about every mechanic in the game. Affixes lack nuance, and players pretty much just skip weeks with bad ones anyways. I'm also just not a fan of content where everything does something that can potentially wipe the group if it isn't managed, in part because it only adds to the aforementioned gulf between classes that can do everything and classes that can't. So, what you end up with is content where other people determine whether you're getting anything done that day, where playing your favorite class might be akin to hitching a ball and chain to your ankle, and where the barrier to high level play is either having a team or being able to survive a dot that ticks 80% of your healthbar. Content where the top end is just pages of the same damn classes/comps. It just feels so stale at this point. I'd love a refresh. Just the thought of pushing like I did across Dragonflight gives me such visceral burnout.

[@Akumashogun259]

Running mythic+ is like getting back together with your crazy, abusive ex-girlfriend.

[@CloudWalkBeta]

This feels like a joke i wouldn’t have understood a few years ago but today i TOTALLY get! XD

[@ssv-y2q]

"Nah bro just join liquid bro and you'll be fine"

[@therealmaxiduDe]

Doing a Zaelia

[@ssv-y2q]

@@therealmaxiduDe He should have called the police

[@LizzieLeish]

or boyfriend and so much yes lol

[@TaliesinMyrddin]

I'm glad Bell's come around on letting delve players earn myth track gear

[@flyingraijin5867]

why would delve players need myth track?

[@TaliesinMyrddin]

@@flyingraijin5867 Because Zekvir and outdoor content are easier with myth track gear obtained from game modes other than delves and outdoor content and raiders/M+ers would cry bloody murder if the best gear for their content was obtained through other content And, as Bell points out, letting delve players finish the entire progression within delves means M+ers and raiders don't have to deal with inexperienced delvers jumping into higher-end content with good ilevels but no experience It just makes sense. There's no downside to it, and the current system incentivises inexperienced players to try sliding sideways into content they're not prepared for because their progression caps at 80% for no real reason.

[@LaccerHS]

Also delves have no point above T8, I can solo it on a 580 destro lock, get my 603 champ gear (which is not even close to bis slot gear) and I'm done in 10 minutes. T11 is really just about cheesing even at 619, especially if you want the no death achievement. Other than that maybe the vault is the only reason I still do it, to get some hero gear. I mean what is the penality of failing a delve? Wasting my own 10 minutes and that's it. In M+ I spend 30-60 minutes just on trying to get called in for a goddamm 7-8 while having 1750 rating and 619 ilvl, because I just get denied by people being high up in their 2100+ asses. And even if I get called in it's a 30 minute gamble on whether or not people will be braindead or not, or just ragequit after one wipe. So thanks but I'll just try to go for the 2k mount and never touch it again in this season.

[@BellularNews]

Yep, though only in a world where the rest of Delves are changed to account for that

[@jsw78]

Thank God I don't do mythic plus. A little casual random battleground here or there. A little devle action there. Boom I'm chilling. If I ever want to experience the new raid content, I'll burn an hour or two messing around in LFR on my day off and that's it. I like my WoW stress free

[@fencingfireferret1188]

Same here. Delves are more than enough to sate my needs

[@Scuuurbs]

I just came back to the game in DF. I didn’t do M+ and I did just fine. Now in TWW we have delves. With all the negativity surrounding it, I don’t think I’ll ever do M+.

[@Guy2520-s1x]

Exactly who wants to do dungeons now that your whole account can be banned for 7 days. NOBODY

[@dantebzs]

@@Scuuurbs Absolutely. You don't need M+ for anything other than M+, it's the worst loot grind in the game. However, it's the most popular form of content, M+ players are forced to do other types of content because otherwise you get behind in the M+ ladder. M+ players are hostages in other types of content, while other types of content's players have barely any reason to do M+. Just separate M+ from the rest of the game and I'll be a happier player... But they can't do that or RAID numbers will plummet.

[@alp_altinok3828]

@@dantebzs mole people

[@slaayerr1]

Yep my 2k plus rating and 618 gs hunter literally cant even get invited into mythic +8 and above and barely gets +7 invites. Literally need to host my own or lock onto a friends healer to actually get consistent joins

[@Cheeky_Bandit]

It's not that blizzard makes meta specs, it's that the imbalance is so insane you think they literally rolled the dice on it. BM hunter doing 29% less damage than Enhancement shamans in 12+ and up is absolutely disgusting.

[@mosley3485]

If only you could just hop on another spec and be top 10.

[@MrkraZzz]

You don't need to play meta unless you are the top 0.1%. Plenty of Bm hunters have timed 16+ keys. You are just bad.

[@Cheeky_Bandit]

@@MrkraZzz Only one BM hunter has timed a 16 you clown. And this isn't about if people can complete keys this is about the game being 29% easier just because someone is playing the "right spec". That is a complete failure of balancing, the worst I have ever seen in M+ so far.

[@Cheeky_Bandit]

@@mosley3485 If only blizzard could take that 150 million dollars from the store mount and actually balance their game.

[@Cheeky_Bandit]

@@MrkraZzz I don't even play BM hunter, and only two have timed a 16. This is an issue about blizzard being so terrible at balancing this season that playing the right class makes the game 29% easier in pure damage alone. In a one to one comparison, if the mob is at 30% for a BM the enhancement sham already killed theirs. The two people are not playing the same game at that point.

[@ishepard2]

I've played WoW since 2014 as a casual player and loved it. I raided with my guilds up through heroic and loved the content and had a great time. As life happened, I skipped half of BFA and SL but came back in the last half of DF. Now that my wife is into it, I'm back in the game and we're building our highest level alts on multiple classes and starting to dip our toes into M+ dungeons. Even with our 619 mains we can't get into most M2-4 dungeons because most of the ppl in there are 580-ish spec, they struggle with all of the mechanics, then when there's a wipe or two, people just leave and the key is burned and gone. This makes it very hard for people like us, who are looking for some more challenging content, to get into the work. Instead we're just focusing on power leveling alts for specific classes (like a prot pally or boomkin) from the ground up to get that same kind of fun. If this is what M+ dungeons are like, we'll just skip it, thanks.

[@ucipitalmapilary]

play the class you enjoy, push your own key) give the players right to choose their teammates - they'll be picking only the best out of the best (in their opinion) of course. that's not m+ problem

[@Katassu86]

As a tank, one of the things that frustrates me with m+ is that I need to interrupt all the things but unlike a decurse, my interupt is wasted if I hit it a millisecond after someone else. That and a lack of in game overlay for me to map out mobs and have direction in play while learning new dungeons and routes. Seriously, that tanks have to do all the heavy lifting of memorising each route perfectly is keeping a lot of new or returning tanks out of m+

[@Taintedwings4444]

I feel you. I was thinking maybe they can add a way where the game locks everyone's interrupts for a couple of seconds immediately after a successful interrupt. That way, nothing is wasted.

[@TheUmbrex]

its called mythic dungeon tools

[@oscargallman4178]

@@TheUmbrexthe same over and over again.. Blizzard needs their playerbase to fix their game with addons.. 😂

[@drid2507]

I'm new to wow. Playing prot pally. Fully geared through delves. Do you think the over elaborate dungeons and mechanics are a bit much in the modern game? When I did the time walking ones it was obvious where I had to go, what I had to pull and where to group them. Doing the follower dungeons was like Where do I go? What do I pull now? Oh, we all have fly over there? We have to deliver drinks at a bar? We have to find candles in the dark? My God. How ridiculous.

[@ssv-y2q]

No you gotta force people to join liquid if they wanna m+! Every one needs to be on comms!!!!

[@ToodleOoo]

What I don’t understand is how I could run CMs in Mop and Wod thousands of times with only cosmetic rewards and titles and have the time of my life. M+ has just never given me warm and fuzzies.

[@ToodleOoo]

Granted I do have to add I was pushing endgame raids at the time but I loved CMs because it was actually MORE lucrative to go back in time for your BiS due to scaling, not push content.

[@drowsyfantasy]

I love tanking. My wife brought me into WOW to be her pocket tank. My number one problem is people not TALKING to each other. If there's something we're not getting in a dungeon, and I'm trying to ask people to do something in instance chat or regular chat, most of the time there's just dead silence in return. That, and people running ahead to pull mobs before I'm done. I'm watching the healer's mana and there's a reason I haven't moved yet. Hold those horses.

[@CloudWalkBeta]

Or they cast spells WHILE you are pulling, so they steal aggro, and they’ll blame you for it XD And you can try to place a pack somewhere you think is safe. But somebodies attack ricochets to narnia and bonus pulls mobs anyway. I would enjoy tanking more if it didnt feel like tanks carried unequal responsibilities while the dps do so little. Healers have an equal amount of pressure too, if you messup, the dps are quick to start flaming tanks and healers.

[@Lucifaar]

@@CloudWalkBeta I am also a tank. I solve the people stealing aggro problem by just not running by the mob on my mount. I pull a mob, attack for a few gcds, generate some threat, and THEN move on.

[@nightsage217]

Recommend wow vanilla/classic. The tempo is way slower, mana regeneration is appalling in leveling dungeons, not accounting raid gears. Therefore, meta also dictates if healer spent all its mana, all mana-based damage dealers will spend all their mana too, so they can drink together. and talk shit in between. There is no rdf, so you have to lfg/lfm. The travel to dungeon is manually done, so every group made is less likely to have deserters. Plus, most of the dungeons have quests, and some of them will influence the routes. That important information requires communication before the dungeon starts, and that's social interaction I crave too. From my tanking experience in both leveling and raiding, almost no dps dares to pull mobs ahead of me, unless we have created understanding. Partially because warriors are the dominant tank, but they have really bad aoe aggro. If you are warlock, hellfire on pull timer 0sec is begging to be mucked instantly. Experienced raiders understand that, having that discipline and foresight makes tanking infinitely better experience, despite having the worst aggro modifier in all expansion. Try out wailing cavern and/or deadmine. If you like those experience, I think u can appreciate other more complicated end game dungeons like Maraudon, Black rock dungeon and scholomance. Not entirely recommend raiding scenes, beyond BWL it's just too sweaty and too unsustainable, the consumable list and money spent is insane. (but we did kill Kelthuzad anyway XD) cheers.

[@Rewrewb]

What we re saying in here is generally true. Although i have to point out one extra thing. Maybe i am a bit biased while writing this but i feel like the problem with M+ is people's own dishonesty to themselves and ego that is ruining the experience for others. I m not talking about scenarios where a dps stands in fire and blames the healer purely because of his ego. Im talking about scenarios which many people doing 14s / 15s / 16s even, encounter. Many of "those players" have been the ultimate reason, multiple times may i say, for depleting keys at a higher level but i dont know why or when are they gonna accept the fact that nobody is forcing them to do those keys for extra io and they re just not good enough for this extra level of spiciness in a key. I am not saying you shouldnt test out your limits in this game but if you have done 10-15 keys higher than +13 / +14 and you re still giving out your best to deplete the key (sarcasm) maybe its time to step down champ and embrace the blessing of living inside a 4th dimension called Time. Those fails not only include doing barely minimum capable numbers for your class but also not knowing how a Mythic 0 mechanic works when you re in a +15 level key for example or trying to copy routes and strategies that only would apply to people that either are talented or playing the game as a job. This is usually something many people have encountered overtime i believe and i have to say, miserable is a kind word to describe it. To top that off, "those players" are also the same that require the maximum dps output classes while also letting players know that they need to be the highest possible io for their "simple" key. Thats what troubles me. How can you be that delusional? How can you be lying to yourself from daytime to nightime back and forth? How can you have ZERO self respect + respect towards others and not lower your standards since you re not at your highest perfomance? Overall, as i said maybe im a bit biased and using "BIG" words to describe this situation but i enjoyed playing in an era of gaming where people used to look themselves at the mirror daily (inner mirror as well) and having more important things in life than pixels. I guess embracing snowballing must be a good feeling. Keep your head up champs.

[@TheBlargMarg]

As someone who played Holy Paladin, it's infuriating when the healer has to carry very slow DPS, and then whoever is raid lead just overlooks the DPS charts and goes straight to the healer and starts blaming them for not being able to keep everyone alive during an enraged state.

[@museluvr]

That tends to piss me off. DPS and tanks need to take responsibility for their actions. I use to stay quiet, but will back those falsely accused, which usually means being kicked. Like that solves anything.

[@Spudwow]

At that point.. leave the raid? And/or guild.. the leader of that raid has zero clue if it’s truly that bad. If they’re seeing little jimmy and billy, with their friend bobbins do 2K dps each and then seeing the fight go into enrage at which point is near one shotting (probably) everyone including your tanks and blaming the healers. The leader is a muppet at that point. No amount of healing is going to prevent a one shot

[@dashvash5440]

Hmmm they should know what enraged means. That does suck.

[@thianinfio5998]

Remove timer and make finishing the goal.. it would take out stress and toxicity. Tanks could pull less and so one.. u can take friends which are probably not the best spec/player

[@bootnscoot5265]

The problem with M+ is that it constantly tries to tell you how important it is. Let it exist, don't tie almost literally all your systems into it. Point being, if M+ was removed over night, the game would crumble, since the game spends no time trying to prop up other avenues of gameplay. With the sequential breakdown being, if you aren't doing mythics, then you aren't really playing the game and that without mythics, there's barely any game to play anyways.

[@QPoily]

That's not a problem with M+. That's a problem with the rest of the game. M+ has objectively been an addition to the game since Legion. It's been an EXTRA avenue to chase for people who want to PvE but don't want to dedicate their time raiding. Before we had M+, we literally only had raiding and PvP. Now we have raiding, PvP, AND M+. AND Delves as well.

[@bootnscoot5265]

@@QPoily M+ dominates all gear progression via crest. You have to do them if you want better gear, really non debatable. So it isn't that the rest of the game doesn't reward you, it's that they have decided M+ is the gate to all progression. It occupying that dominating slot makes it a very large part of the problem, by making all other content eventually non viable. Also that goes to proves the point, prior to M+, the "world" of warcraft had become bland, boring and forgettable. Now that so much of the burden of the game lies on M+, that issue has only been further exacerbated. Because they aren't spending any time or energy on it or making any real concerted efforts to improve it. The band-aid fix thus far has been to shovel as many players into M+ as possible and pretend the other problems don't exist.

[@MrQwertyman111]

@@bootnscoot5265 100% right. After bad experience with M+ going back to Legion, me and my wife refuse to touch it and haven't done a single one since BfA. So guess what? We've reached a gear cap that doesn't allow us to be invited into pugs, and we don't have enough time to be part of regular raiding efforts in a guild. So yeah, if it wasn't for Delves? We'd be gone from TWW by now. M+ needs rethinking, because right now it's not appealing to the majority of the playerbase and is effectively locking progress for people who don't do them.

[@PowerInfusion]

Mythic+ group finder would be great, a great reward for healers and tanks would be something like being able to gear up your alts very quickly, having a healer or tank should be like the equivalent of gearing two characters at once. If they made the rewards for healers and tanks good enough there would be no shortage and that's a fact.

[@PsicCarlosFernandoBravo]

Damn, someone mail this to Blizzard please. I'll pay for the stamp.

[@Orgrimmar21]

You remove depletion and ppl would be 100% incentivized on queuing their own keys which would also aliviate the dps bloat signing up. Depletion at this point makes absolutely 0 sense. And you could make an npc to let you change the lvl of your key to one you already completed in case you want to do a lower key.

[@anarchistmousepad2183]

0:57 so Sylvannas was right after all?

[@Gibsonex]

Gross

[@Xariann]

Darktide has just released their own "Mythic +". The amount of backlash for some of the choices that have been made for that mode, which happen every day in WOW is unbelievable. It really shone a light on everything that made M+ toxic for me, and why I quit it.

[@HectorDiez]

All great suggestions as always, but the idea of giving DPS damage down, is Genius... and it should be something Blizzard implement

[@QPoily]

It's not a genius suggestion. It's a suggestion only shit players stuck below +9s make. The idea behind damage downs is to punish DPS players instead of healers, except it's still going to punish healers. If a DPS (or multiple) takes a damage down and therefore the boss dies slower and has time to do another massive AoE damage instance/a tank buster, the healer is going to have to heal more than they would've had the DPS not taken avoidable damage. Having to temporarily spend more mana or use a healing CD is more recoverable than having one or multiple DPS take a damage down. Overall it's a WAY more punishing mechanic than what we currently have. The biggest issue with it however is that it takes away overall player agency in how they can push their group. There are many scenarios, at least as casters, where you need to finish a cast or risk losing a lot of DPS. Making the informed decision to finish the cast at the cost of the healer's mana, or finish the cast and use a defensive CD/potion right after it to countereffect the damage taken is something that makes WoW PvE fun and something many actual experienced players often do. And you'll have plenty of higher ranked healers also tell you that they do not at all mind to trade in some mana usage if it means DPS players can play more aggro at times. So no, damage downs as a mechanic only serves to make the life of actual good players more miserable by reducing the ability to creatively use your own abilities to negate avoidable damage as well as reduces the overall agency players have to make informed decisions. All because some healers get huffy and puffy about people in their +8 keys playing like players who are stuck in +8 keys.

[@LordsUther]

its 20 iq. the baddies wont care. Pulls will take longer and healers will run out of mana faster.

[@classictholo548]

Obviously the inverse is preferred, dodge the mechanic got a dps buff. Dps don't feel bad for moving and do bigger number, healers not crying from.carrying the group

[@Alarios711]

@@classictholo548 lmao this exactly the same thing. The baseline will be the buffed damage instead of the "normal" one.

[@n806131]

It is actually the worst idea possible. It actively punishes tanks and healers by making things live longer, stressing mana and defensive cooldowns.

[@billbadson7598]

The problem is that M+, in its current iteration, is the ONLY endgame dungeon content, but it plays in a very specific way, like a minigame within the game. M+ up to +10 should not have a timer. It incentivizes leavers, because failing a timer drops your key, reduces your loot, and feels terrible. It incentivizes huge pulls, which can be fun, but shouldn't be mandatory to completing the dungeon. It incentivizes super tight, specific routes, which also CAN be fun, but can also lead to major frustration, extra-dangerous pulls where you have to thread the needle, and higher stress situations. It also drastically reduces tank availability, because tanks, as the leaders of the group, NEED to know optimal routes because of the timer. How many more tanks would there be if you could just pull safely, pull packs one at a time, and do things in a more laid-back manner? A lot more. I think Blizz could retain a timed M+ mode past +10, call it something else, call it Time Trial mode or Challenge mode or whatever. But make it clear this mode is different from normal M+, and make it bonus content for the tryhards who love pushing, completely unnecessary for gearing or achievements other than title.

[@Keyourasa]

" How many more tanks would there be if you could just pull safely, pull packs one at a time, and do things in a more laid-back manner? A lot more." tbh ik this would ease people into tank but honestly i think we dont want tanks pulling like this. i dont really know anyone who wants to take a 30 minute dungeon and make it take 50 minutes cause the tank is slow. its just an agonizing experience i think the timer is good for making people learn how to play the game proper. tho i do think there should be some kind of easier dungeon content akin to lfr but not just heroic dungeons

[@billbadson7598]

@@Keyourasa You don't have to join groups with tanks pulling like this. You can find tanks who pull fast and run with them. It is an option that will always be available to you. As it is now, there are just no options to do otherwise.

[@Keyourasa]

@billbadson7598 but until ur in the dungeon there is no way to tell really unless we have another metric to go off of like replays which is obviously outside the realm of possibility

[@Shiirow]

the gimmick is finally wearing thin, and a comparable alternative has arisen so people are not wasting their time with it because its no longer the only option for small group content.

[@nerdrooted]

If Delves scaled all the way up to the same rewards as m+ 10 keys, you'd see a LOT of players exiting the m+ scene, leaving the players that truly love it. Especially if they rewarded items from the current season dungeon pool. Let raiding rewards stay exclusive to raid, but the delves item pool is too restrictive otherwise.

[@BJ-on5dx]

I think M+ is a little bit of a black hole that everything else in the game seems to gravitate around. We know it was an attempt by Kotick to get some of the esports engagement, but I personally think it's taken more from the whole of WoW than it's given. Having normal, heroic, and mythic dungeons-each scaled the way the raid are now, would be a good way to balance things out. People could pop into normal and heroic dungeons after/alongside delves as well as raids, and the mythic version of the dungeon (as like the raid) would be there for those who want the challenge. You could even add in extra cosmetic rewards to the mythics just like the raids.

[@TheMcJK]

I dont really understand what the difference would be, just that People that wnat to push their limit cant anymore?

[@cracklingice]

Not entirely sure how I feel about them actually doing it - but if people needed to complete the previous key level of that dungeon to get into the next, it would mean people at least had to run the previous difficulty once to both gain experience for that dungeon and to build their io. It would also likely increase the groups being formed.

[@Veracious88]

Delves are a great piece of content, I will never step into mythic plus again unless friends want me in there. The game is much better knowing there is solo content that actually has decent rewards I'm glad I don't have to que for a mythic plus where the leader expects you to be 10 item levels higher than the key you que'd for. If they destroy delves than that's farewell to their game for me.

[@robertwermis2971]

Yes same, I gave up raiding long time ago and didn't play for a long time, heard about the new solo content with good gear rewards and I came back. Love Delves, can do it on any level I want, progress at my own rate and no one freaks out if I make a mistake and die.

[@Uncle19]

Add a pause button which is initiated via ready check vote. Freezes everything with the option to add or drop players who join the freeze state. This way if a toxic player leaves, goes afk, needs kicking, we can kick and have the opportunity to continue. Similarly if a fella needs to use the bathroom he doesn’t need a bed pan to finish the key. You can zone out of the freeze state but your character is set to the freeze state upon rejoining. Just this would resolve so much tension.

[@amitzyraizy7774]

As someone who does Not playing a meta char it's is very hard to get in m+ lol.

[@jethrodark2372]

That isn't because of M+ tho, Blizz could remove M+ tomorrow and there will still be a meta.

[@brunohommerding3416]

@@jethrodark2372 but the problem is made worse in M+ because its a smaller group so everyone MUST be decent. And some players are completely brain roted with the Meta. I play a non meta class myself and most times i outperform meta sweatlords. The problem is that theres a tendency for people to pick the meta classes because its a lazy way to "guarantee"(it doesnt) good performance. But half of this idea is an illusion, you can get any meta classes you want for your group and it wont matter if the guy is just a bad player trying to compenasate and doesnt even have interrupts or defensives on his bar. The meta should HELP "guide" players when forming a group, but it should not be set in stone. There are no unplayable classes/specs anymore, this isnt 2006

[@jethrodark2372]

@@brunohommerding3416 True, but M+ ain't going anywhere. So this will always be a problem. It's either people that like it deal with the negatives or don't do M+.

[@rollcaskett1812]

@@jethrodark2372 I don't do M+ and just raid every week, currently on Mythic Broodtwister, but I'm punished with worse ilvl because I don't want to engage more than I have already with M+ toxicity. I'm 624 right now when I could be much higher if I did M+, not even getting into the M+ trinkets I've never seen drop.

[@jethrodark2372]

@@rollcaskett1812 That's not a M+ issue tho, that's a Blizz being to lazy to fix Raid gearing to keep up with M+. Raid loot has needed a overhaul for sometime now. I also raid and I haven't got my BiS neck from raid or the two BiS rings and this is 3months in, that's insane. They need to keep the dinar token system from last season of SL in every raid season tbh.

[@TheValkyron]

06:20 how do you make details look like a part of objectives panel?

[@GloomSkullCandy]

Its not "delvers going into m+" those people were still going into M+ during DF when delves didnt exist, its just now they have a better alternative to M+ in delves, but they got capped at t8 with rewards so they HAVE to go back to M+ for the rest of the progression.

[@TheMcJK]

But if you only want to do Delves, why would you even need better Items? Wouldnt that make Delves Trivial?

[@MrQwertyman111]

@@TheMcJK It's a negativity feedback loop. You don't enjoy M+ but want to progress stuff, including gear. You move to Delves and keep doing them, but at a certain point the rewards are pretty much nothing as they cap at 8. And eventually, you'll hit a wall in Delves where you need better gear. Yes, you do get crests there but just count how many of those you need. So the only reasonable thing to do is... move back to M+ to continue your gear progression. As strange as it may sound, for many people WoW is pushing them into M+. Want to pug raid? Show us your ilvl. And where will you get that? Dungeons / LFR / Delves / Hero raids and... yup, you guessed it, M+. Yes, you can do it without M+ but it's then a much longer and thus painfull process, espcially when you don't have a lot of time for gaming. And that is what M+ was supposed to be as well - a way for players to jump in, make 1-2 runs and be happy istead of a raid that is typically much longer. M+ is no longer that.

[@Moiraley]

@@TheMcJK you want to progress your character. you want to play that character. And you are done with progression way to fast if you don't play high m+. i am at the point that i am on my third mage now because i want to play mage but are finished (616) too fast

[@antolimpenha5976]

60g after complete the dungeon. Repair and consumables = can reach almost 2k per run Also, if you wipe = done. 15 secs per death = stupid. If you're trying to push = crazy. Even playing with meta the thing still hards.

[@nihouma11]

I stopped running dungeons when they made M+ the default dungeon activity at end game. I've been enjoying classic instead with old school dungeons where the group taking a 5 minute bio break is normal, where people chit chat through the dungeon, where pulling a pat is scary, and where CC gets used to make pulls doable. WoW used to have the dungeon gameplay loop down, but eventually they took the danger out of them. Rather than making dungeons actually dangerous if you bite off more than you can chew at all levels, they made everything that isn't M+ kiddy mode easy, and made M+ far too punishing. Also, I hate the timers

[@LordsUther]

"where cc gets used to make pulls doable" another classic andy that hasnt played retail in 5+ years. amazing

[@TheSirtempest]

You don't use cc in m+?

[@jonathan13co]

​@@LordsUtherIt really is amazing how clueless they are. Mumbling paragraphs of complete nonsense. Dude doesnt even understands why he likes or hates something.

[@kaellach9898]

There is not "default dungeon activity at end game " in classic. You get your BIs and you never step foot into the dungeon ecosystem again. Hardly a comparison to make here. Get your t3 BIs and go back to any dungeon in classic, there is zero danger, no matter what you ' Bite off to chew'.

[@javajovm]

As a delver all I really care about is all the tier tints being available to me, which they are currently but the game does not make it immediately obvious. I do 8 Tier 8's a week on my main to fill out the vault and am at 4/9 Mythic appearances and am on track to have all but bracers by the end of January. If you look at the reward list for T8's it's not immediately obvious this is accessible. But between delver's bounties, tokens of merit from the vault, and upgrading carved crests from world activities it's quite easily done with 3-4 hours of play time per week. So if we wanted Delver's to not feel forced to do M+ just for upgrading their hero track gear, making crests availability a bit more obvious would go a long ways towards that. And maybe slightly increasing availability. SoulSoBreezy mentioned maybe being able to buy packs of crests at the end of the delver's journey and I'd like to see something like that. Maybe even just being able to buy delver's bounties with delver currency at the end of the delve track would help making these upgrades feel more accessible.

[@OhNoTheFace]

Don't ruin delves by trying to bandaid the broken M+ nonsense

[@Goodkhat]

The "damage down" mechanic would be so good for M+. If (idk) half of the mechanics would punish the dps meter instead of the health bars, then maybe Blizzard could deliver on the healing tuning and that would make roles like tank and healers more enjoyable. I want to try healer or tank again in M+ but not in this current state

[@Zeph914]

I agree, they need to add more knock backs and group spell interrupts if you don’t properly kick. Then dps will be forced to use their kicks too or wipe.

[@DeusVultGamer]

Simplest solution is this: Improve end of dungeon rewards. Guaranteed loot for tanks and healers (for those loot tables) at the end of dungeon. Get rid of key depletion and give full crest rewards regardless of timer. The “punishment” for failing a key then becomes not pushing the key. Finally, add solo queue M+

[@Akeelian]

- Nerf tanks ✅ - 50 tank busters in every dungeon(Grim Batol) ✅ - Tank player base drops ✅

[@VintasticGaming]

Problem are players m+ players make a key 2+ and expeect a 10+key runners to join

[@Special_Tactics_Force_Unit]

Really, ALL of them?

[@VintasticGaming]

@Special_Tactics_Force_Unit almost all yea

[@AnvilMAn603]

ive seen healers with 587 ilvl decline my request to join a +7 assuming due to NOT being in 630 fully enchanted gear the funny part is i saw him in newcomer caht explaining mythic+ and complaining about "nobody wants to do it anymore"

[@lvwerneck]

I am one of these people who you deemed "don't want to learn", so allow me to add a bit of nuance and perspective to your take. It's not that I don't WANT to learn. I just don't want to learn OUTSIDE of the game. Teach me what I need to know in game and I'll happily learn it.

[@thedarkfox9851]

What I did in War Within: - Follow the story by Questing and Leveling up - Mine some Ore and craft some things - get into Delves and gear my Character with those - Have fun and quit after I was done I don't need the game to hold me hostage for a potential Itemlevel upgrade in the single digits anymore.

[@hyshade5132]

As someone that plays a dps meta character it's almost impossible to get into M+ pug runs.

[@TheUmbrex]

u need score and gear too

[@shifts-in-light]

​@@TheUmbrex and you need to get into groups to raise your score and get gear/crests. 🤔🤔🤔🤔 ...

[@ssv-y2q]

"Just be a a mythic raider bro"

[@TheMcJK]

​@@shifts-in-light you can make your own group?

[@SigridKroon]

One of the big issues I feel is that mythic+, because people are so often pugging it, is done without voice comms. People do not use the in-built voice comms and often won’t join discord. I know they’ve added easier marking in game but I think it needs to go further than that. There needs to be some form of group strategy element in game where the group can have a shared plan together (like the old addons) and also it would be good to see that in game some how. On top of this I would make this available while people are waiting in queues so they can learn routes etc while waiting

[@asdafrak]

14:15 that sounds like a legit, simple, and effective solution, and we know blizzard only likes to take new ideas that someone else has done sooo....

[@jakedesarno4313]

Been playing this game since BC, WoW isn't the problem... we are. Back when wow was at its peak BC/WotLK, not everyone expected to be in full BiS gear by the end of a season. When you did run into one of your servers' top players, it was like meeting a legend (full tier, mounts from raid etc) and it gave you something to strive for. Now gear is either handed out or so rng based(the super rares, etc) that the whole game just feels like an arpg trying to make them casuals AND mythic raiders happy, and it's not working for anyone.

[@DJ_Treu]

I laugh at past me for being financially irresponsible but: in BFA/SL I race changed over 30 times to push keys / push into a top 500 score for my class+Spec. There are very big issues with the foundation of the game but its monetizable so i dont see it changing any time soon - not because they think its fine, but because we all know who has final say.

[@claytonreeves150]

I've never engaged with the Mythic+ system, so the sheer absurd hyperbole of it tearing WoW apart is particularly hilarious to me. I'm having a blast doing none of this nonsense.

[@TheBogle255]

Someone, at some point in the M+ development, said "but what if people purposely don't hit the timer to farm gear? or sell runs that purposely don't hit the timer??" and so, depleted keys were born. And given the way corporations tend to work, no one was specifically assigned to fix the "depleted key" problem in M+, and so it has remained. In fact, it wouldn't necessarily surprise me if the answer to the "M+" problem wasn't assumed to be solved by leadership via the class balance and dungeon design team independently . If classes are perfectly balanced, and dungeons are done well, then M+ should naturally be a known quantity, a non-issue. If players are having problems, surely its their fault.

[@maciejbrodecki9667]

The biggest issue is that even though M+ sucks all changes are made for M+. Like latest Elemental Shaman rework... Nobody asked for it

[@jonathan13co]

"Nobody"? Actually clueless. Ele/enha shaman has been a missed potential for a long time

[@SoapSoapCrayon]

I was a mythic raider, mained healing, I was in the top 10 guilds in my region, regularly parsed in the top 10 in my class for both dps and healing worldwide in every tier. I do not like having to M+ for gear. While it's fun to do occasionally, especially if you have a set group, organizing groups, dealing with specific keys, grinding gear from specific keys, trying to get those keys at high enough level without the clout of being one of the top guilds is an absolute nightmare. It was probably the largest contributor to why I quit when the guild fell apart. Especially due to how fucking miserable M+ was this tier, basically no healer has any agency over how a key goes this tier once you get past a certain level. It is all about stopping the incoming damage with CC and tank mitigation. The only thing a healer can do to prevent a tank death is using an external, which most have a 1 minute cooldown. I actually removed my HoTs from my group frames in M+ and added tank defensives because those are infinitely more important to track. It is unsurprising to see that there are more healerless runs completed above 15 than there are runs with all non-disc priest healers combined, with Mistweaver being basically the only exception. Add to that people who've never timed a +10 throwing and leaving keys, while blaming you for wiping one time in a +10 (when they are doing 2/3rds of your dps and have used no stops or kicks the entire dungeon) when you're literally wearing a HoF title is extremely annoying to deal with.

[@wm-wl8ws]

Least clickbait Bellular title

[@BellularGaming]

lmao fair

[@ashtravelerr.3895]

you know he is meant to say what he meant in the video is the title don't you?

[@Scottistic]

If we are doing queues. Since keys are just fixed affixes for a random dungeon. Why not have the game just load you into a random dungeon of the level you choose to queue into. You can still form a group to do m+ like with regular dungeons or even part of a group. This removes key depletion. It removes your personal loss of time from the key. Let the game handle it. Game already checks your ilvl to access content. Also have it require you check if you have timed a key of the previous level. It already tracks your best key anyway

[@glenhopkins2881]

Absolutely love the idea to make mythic + with a dungeon queue system. To find groups based on the key level you're ready for and based on your previous key level history would save so much time waiting due to all the group leaders only picking your typical retri, enhancement damage dealers.. Then if you get people leave have the key pause until the group is filled again or allow for a restart option with the fresh group!

[@Haluhe]

You are 100% right about the matchmaking thing, just a small addition: I don't think that the current approach with the scores is a good metric to base skill level on, as it has become commonplace to fake that by getting boosted etc. Sure, you could just be safe and just invite people who have cleared obscene amounts of timed keys in your current segment, but that just makes it worse for new players that want to get into m+. There have been numerous times this season where I invited meta class players with high Gearscore into my Keys just to have them hardly contribute any interrupts or utility at all, there have also been many times where people with lower gear and rio score really carried their weight. Most people just want to only pick the safe option which leads back to people not getting into keys and not being able to proof themselfes and raise their score.

[@JoeAdams]

I do love the solo queue idea of having thresholds in order to be able to queue for the next level. And then cap it at whatever the Achievement mount is and make +11 and up not queue-able and you have to form your own group (through the current system is fine) but you have to have earned a particular score and cleared all dungeons at +10 to move on to that. And no key depletions.

[@Yes-wm7hv]

The problem is that other people get to decide if you get to play the computer game or not. Solo que is the only way. It's been the industry standard in every other competitive game in existence, it's time to change.

[@ryanebrecht5651]

There should be NO pure DPS classes. Every class should have at least one spec that can tank and/or heal.

[@hdckighfkvhvgmk]

did I hear hunter pet tank?

[@TheSirtempest]

If delves are the problem, make delves drop gilded crests

[@adrianbrave6044]

IMO Mythic+ betrays the fundamental dungeon fantasy. Challenge mode dungeons were a fun novelty to dive into when you were bored in the endgame, and that's where that should have stayed. It's a gross feature to hinge endgame character progress on.. well, the endgame is the only game, so technically it's just all character progression. Remember when going to a dungeon was like embarking on an adventure?

[@TarrikX]

I agree depletion should go, but a queue into M+ would be very hard to program properly. how would it form comps? melee vs ranged for a multitude of things including kick cds? class utility that can be damn near mandatory for certain affixes? what about lust? there's a lot of things that the average key host has to account and optimize for to increase success rates. Second point, trying to make delves their own pillar truly stand alone by increasing their difficulty and scaling to reflect a true endgame pillar is going to be next to impossible. There's just too many differences between classes to have a good experience all around while still having proper difficulty. pet classes can trivialize most things in delves and they did when they were initially too hard at the start of TWW. while some classes have next to no healing and it was near impossible. just look at mage tower from legion (solo instanced content) and see how much variance there was between classes of the same challenge; some classes just facerolled it while others could barely do it.

[@dayn1322]

This is the easiest fix of my life: Make delves capable of dropping mythic gear and guilded crests, but make it take longer. I stopped at tier 8 when gear stopped...maybe make it g up to 12? get 2-6 crests for a run, 6-10 for a key run, and have myth 1/6 gear drop from the vault for doing key runs.

[@celticsone_]

competitive gaming of any kind comes with toxicity

[@Scottistic]

Blizzard advertised Delves as a new pillar of gameplay. Equal to raiding, pvp and M+ yet it doesn’t award equivalent gear

[@kingnoobslayer5818]

The real issue is one that can't be solved: The drive for better and better gear will either reward players for their skill (via harder content), or for their time (gated behind a grind). Deciding where to place those walls will either make the accomplishment not FEEL like an accomplishment (too many people get it far too quickly or easily), or feel unachievable to too many players. Unskilled players don't like being reminded that they're unskilled. Elite players demand to be noticeably above the normies. Normies pay the bills in their pursuit of becoming an elite. So, where and how do you place that wall?

[@Hoigwai]

I hated the Mythic+ system from day one. I am glad to see it die.

[@UltimateGamerCC]

lol somebody didnt watch the video.

[@MrSamooska]

What's the details skin at 19:30 ? That be real nice

[@TheDeadGunslinger]

The honest problem is, they are trying to make everything for everyone. Casual players should NOT be in competitive ques.

[@ACmil21]

This. Damage damps are just going to make grey parsers do even less damage.

[@Neo-Bladewing]

All players in ques are casuals. If you're actually competitive and hardcore, you're forming dedicated premade groups of players you know perform well, not depending on randoms. It's very easy to exclude lower skill or less dedicated individuals when you don't willingly throw yourself into the pool made for lower skill and less dedicated individuals :P

[@ACmil21]

@ you’re just shifting the argument semantically. If all non premades are casuals then you have tiers of casuals. And then you exclude by rating system.

[@Bigmbrennan]

The chart @9:46 is wrong.... isnt crafting for gilded 90 crests and not 60?

[@Dracounguis]

I never liked mythic+ dungeons. It's one of the reasons I left the game. And my main was a tank. 😆

[@falricthesleeping9717]

14:16, the thing is WOW actually did this years ago, it was a single encounter in firelands, the fight with majordomo on heroic, functionally it only mattered when you were dealing with orbs in that fight (if the dps wanted to keep their DPS buffs) but they did this

[@jerrytruckn]

My god what a title lmao.

[@BellularGaming]

Sometimes you've just got to take the shot haha

[@MonsieurDeVeteran]

@@BellularGaming of messing up the maths like you did in your previous video when talking about number of accounts owning the AH mount and saying Blizz made 105 MILLION USD from it? ...? How can we take any of the videos with numbers in them and theoricrafting seriously when you make mistakes like that in almost (or all) videos?

[@Xfacta12482]

its true.

[@jacobburch6052]

Damage downs could work to some degree but I get worried that it may result in people only kicking things that are targeting them. Lets say you kick a cast going on someone else because you're actually trying to help and now your kick is on CD, if you get targeted while your kick is on CD and your party doesn't want to kick for you then that means you get the damage down and now you do less DPS. Depending on who saw what happened (or didn't see) the group perception may now be that you are a bad player because your DPS is low. It can also prevent pulling multiple mobs unless damage downs can't come from casts and instead only come from standing in something you are supposed to move out of like a ground effect or a frontal. Often enough frontals hit hard enough anyway that if you do get hit by one you die and have to run back anyway so you already lose DPS that way. They could try a system like the tank kick on Mistcaller in Mists of Tirna Scithe where only the tank (or in this case, the targeted player) can kick the cast. I'm open for them trying it but without hearing how blizzard plans to implement damage downs I'd be concerned.

[@c0ded56]

Babe, time for your weekly Bellular apocalyptic game ending WoW killer video

[@jsc5326]

Yes, yes, yes! I've been screaming these things for a while now! I would take your final point even further about learning. The game shouldn't require people to go watch videos or read guides outside the game. If people want to do that to make it easier on themselves, that's fine. But the game itself should be very clear on what is needed, self-explanatory. I totally agree with the Damage Down add, but to take that one step further, make it a visual clue so that in earlier keys, where the damage doesn't kill you and healers heal through it, players are still LEARNING what they need to kick or avoid. The way it is today, DPS learn to ignore everything from key levels 0-10 because the healers just heal through it. Then when you get to the point healers can't just heal through it, the bad habits have set in. But everything else you said...yes...chef's kiss!

[@jmunkki]

I haven't played in almost two years now and even then, very little M+. Loved Vanilla when we had a 4 player group of new players (and our healer was legally blind to make things more interesting). You had to think about CC and pull carefully. You only used AOE for specific packs that required it. Deadlines are stressful, so timers are stressful too. My stance is that if I don't find an aspect of a game fun, I try not to do it. But I think the question of "where do you learn the ropes" is a very valid question. You can't learn the dungeons on normal or heroic difficulty, because the difficulty is "lol" and you might even get a tank who solo pulls the entire instance and still manages to get through with zero assistance from the other players. Ideally, you'll have a small group of friends who have similar gear and skills and who can learn together. So...maybe give a tiny bonus of some kind to guild groups. Or, you could learn the mechanics and map in some kind of "trainer mode" with 3-4 AI NPCs in the group and 1-2 human players and you have to complete the dungeon at a certain difficulty to use the M+ group finder. The game is too focused on gear rewards etc and not enough on just having a good time playing. Last time I was playing, I stayed out of guilds on purpose so that I wouldn't have social ties to keep playing. Quitting again wasn't too hard and proved I can play a bit of WoW without throwing away my entire life. Dragonflight was pretty good fun for a while from a solo point of view, but I think Classic (COVID-era) was better, because I was in a good guild. I didn't care about the gear in Classic and wasn't too fussed in Dragonflight either.

[@githvaldi]

Excellent video! I'd love to see Blizz implement an in-game tracking system that monitors each DPS players use of cooldowns to avoid damage and timely interrupts. Give each DPS player a bar that shows how badly or how well they are doing in terms of their role expectations. Example, a dps player who never gets out of poisons or interrupts, would have a lower end player score. This results in less points, potentially no loot and less crests. This way the newer players learned that they were not fulfilling their "job" in that Mythic. This would then incentivize players to become a better player. The goal being to reward proper behavior. Avoid stuff, don't pull threat, interrupt, use CD's on boss pulls and you get MORE rewards. The literal carrot and stick.

[@bierdeckelHeinz]

I currently play every tank and healer (Except holy paladin because I just hate everything about it) and I have to say: by far the worst part of playing the important roles is that you put in a lot more work than everyone else but get the same rewards. A que system would help like currently with everything queable you wait for Call To Arms to be up and get 5k of runes every run. If they put a little bag in the chest at the end of the run for the healer and the tank that contained runes/gold/crests a few configurations of amounts, that'd be great and a good reason to keep doing it. Just something that says "you didnt get an item but that's okay, here's a little progress for carrying the grognards." It would really help ease the pain. But the way it is currently? Idk its hard to get excited about.

[@firststreet66]

One of the interesting points you hit on is that a lot of the population of MMO's actually really enjoy the game and the gameplay SOLO. They do not want to be in a group and there is a decent amount of content designed to be done that way, why not design MORE content specifically for those people? Delves have been so fun for me because I don't have to learn a dungeon or a route or find people or figure out the perfect way to play my class. If I fail a delve, it only affects me and my time. I like group content and M+ but I do not have the time anymore and would LOVE to be able to just do some Delve progression instead and still feel like I reached the "end" of my seasons track like M+ players and raiders have.

[@matheusbrito1787]

Here’s what would actually fix the whole situation and Bellular said it: - let ppl get high ilvl gear equal to the max m+ level without getting them to m+ just to try and get a loot or the 10+ chest at the end of the week. Give ppl gear so that they can play whatever else they want and leave M+ pushers alone.

[@Vash.Baldeus]

Mythic+ can be fixed, several things I have noticed that have to change: - Remove key breaking, it's stupid especially if someone who is not the key owner leaves due to b/s. - Punish repeat leavers, same as any other Ranked game does it where they get 30 minutes, couple hours, a whole day and the more they do it the more timeout they get punishment style. It will clear the pool of the people who do keys out. - If you don't time key? don't lvl it up, keep it same level. Keybreaking is one of the biggest issues with M+

[@dawnstar5294]

"Tanks and Healers are responsible for everything while DPS are only responsible for their damage" What an absolutley braindead take.

[@klae420]

I love pally because even as dps off heals and self heals are possible. Mythic + pug is either a lovely or absolutely awful experience. And if you’re trying to progress, there is not a shred of room of error… because people rage quit and the punishment is terrible.

[@Staticlake]

Remember back in the day where you actually had to CC enemies? Maybe bring back some dungeons where you can AOE packs and some where you have to CC certain enemies. Maybe even have you do both in the same dungeon. Get rid of the timer for loot and maybe add score kicks, stuns, so on and so forth.

[@84grudge]

You have absolutely nailed my season one. I really enjoy delves, I do eight a week. But now I am as high gear level as I can go without doing my mythic eight. And I have no experience in these dungeons.