The World's First Super Thin Dual Axial Flux PCB Coil Motor Using John Bedini Circuits

/ perpetualmotor
/ perpetualmotor
IG: @PerpetualMotor
After researching and building motors over the past few years, I wanted to see what would happen if I combined a bunch of technologies together.
1. Dual axial flux motors have a very efficient magnetic flux path.
2. PCB coils would allow a very small gap between magnets in a dual axial flux motor.
3. John Bedini's SSG (Simple Schoolgirl Circuit) uses a simple triggering system and collects BEMF (Back ElectroMotive Force)
4. John Bedini's Recovery Circuit collects and reuses it's own BEMF, and can use the BEMF of another motor as a power source.
Watch the video to see how it was done.
To understand the motor drive circuit, watch this video:
• Bedini Back EMF Recove...
- Mo
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PCB Manufacture:
JLCPCB
jlcpcb.com
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Laser Cutting:
Automatic Arts
www.automatic-arts.com
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Collar machining:
A & K Machine Shop in Richmond, CA

[@davidkatuin4527]

When you have a prediction and you build it and it works , working through trial and error to gain bounds of information for the next build. This is brilliant! Thanks for the presentation .

[@PerpetualMotor]

@davidkatuin4527 thanks!

[@slappy8714]

Nice work! I thought you pre-PCB motor was cool, but this is next level.

[@Kiddyyep]

This is brilliant! Awesome design.

[@Wol333]

Really good design for a large PCB motor, hope to see your designs go far!

[@PerpetualMotor]

You and me both!

[@colbyjohnson2344]

Just found your channel will watch more. I have been making an axial motor as well. Would love to try with pcb at some point. Very cool. Keep up the great work

[@PerpetualMotor]

Thank you and welcome aboard!

[@GlennLewis]

Great job! Thank you for sharing!

[@michaelcocheci3696]

Well done sir !

[@gregstafford2155]

Great job. Trigger coil in a bi filer wind like the tesla pankcake coil. This will switch the transistor on much more easily

[@shazizz]

BRILLIANT ! :) WE NEED YOU ON THE DREAM TEAM ! :)

[@PerpetualMotor]

LOL! Thank you.

[@sparkfishes]

Very neat ( tidy English-speaking ), well thought out and executed

[@EnergySeeker]

nice work

[@roxasparks]

Broother!!! Yes... this is the idea!

[@marcosvaleriociencia1021]

Exelente meu amigo!! Gostei, grande abraço ! Congratulations of Brasil!!🙏👏👏👏👏😊😊Very fast , my friend!

[@TheTrumanZoo]

Beautiful man, maybe add pcb coil plates?

[@ftwproject658]

Well done! Shows a lot of possibilities. If you decide to stack more pcbs using a bifilar coil spiral arrangement for the coils, you may even get the Than Heins Effect of Delayed Lenz, assisting the motive force! Albeit, may require quite a few bifilar coils in-series and stacked to see the effect. Still PCB coils are the most space efficient and a few thousand turns to get the required high impedance is doable ;)

[@PerpetualMotor]

Thank you! Actually, all of the coils on the PCB are bifilar wound. The effect is so beneficial that it’s not even worth the time to create coils or fbI don’t do it that way. Tell me more about how Thane Heinz’s work applies to motors.

[@ftwproject658]

@@PerpetualMotor It would be applied to the generator / pickup coils. Bifilar coils on their own have very efficient properties when used in flyback mode: kzbin.info/www/bejne/iJXdq2ZqfLOersk The delayed lenz coils must have high impedance, iron core, bifilar, many turns so that the wire's natural frequency is within range of the PM motor's RPM. The result is you are able to delay the lenz effect by at least 50 degrees, when it would actually assist the motor when the generator coil is attached to a load: kzbin.info/www/bejne/iKfMc4Swn66LbqM kzbin.info/www/bejne/apSmqWB3q96Uepo Thane Heins channel goes more indepth , and there is enough replications out there now online.

[@PerpetualMotor]

@@ftwproject658 Woah! This is the first time I’ve heard about this. From my own testing I’ve seen how bifilar generator coils perform better, but this is next level stuff. I had also seen Thane Heinz’s work on transformers, but I had never heard about these coils. How would I find out more? That might just be my next experiment.

[@ftwproject658]

@@PerpetualMotor Check out Than Heins ReGenXtra Inc. YT channel. He calls it 'Regenerative Acceleration' or ReGenX. but the effect is basically a way to delay the response time of bEMF to such a degree that it accelerates the rotor of the motor when fully loaded (as if the load is not attached). Two videos that reference an explanation of the effect: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nqa0d5yknL9ljJo kzbin.info/www/bejne/qp-tnHaVpalsq9E Enjoy!

[@PerpetualMotor]

Thank you!!!

[@newjx]

Thank you sir, but how did you designed the pcb ?

[@AH-td2ho]

thank you for the informative video. how to design coils on a pcb?

[@mcorrade]

wow that make a TON of sense. I always thought it was the speed in which the magnetic field passes the coil but now I see that what your saying. (I think) lololo. Great job man

[@PerpetualMotor]

Right? It took me a while to figure it out, because everyone kept saying that it was just the magnet.

[@mcorrade]

Your motor is sweet. I really dig the way you used such flat coils and still get a great output. I've always been under the school of thought that fatter is better ugggg

[@PerpetualMotor]

Thanks! Fatter is better for some things, I think. But, by using pancake coils, I can get take a little short cut. I also learned that pancake coils don’t seem to attract metal when energized with a current! They have an effect on magnets, but not on ferrous material.

[@srirammech100]

Extraordinary work👍🏻👍🏻 Have halbach magnet arrangement? Used Ferrite or neodymium magnet ?

[@PerpetualMotor]

The magnets are neodymium alternating north-south.

[@knageswarrao6715]

Will you show how to coil size thickness and rounds in PCB?

[@charleslee4706]

hello, great work, are you still work on this type of project?

[@jimmym2719]

Good work 👍is it possible to stack several piece the double sided coil together to increase the coil with same direction coil?

[@PerpetualMotor]

Once the magnets are longer than they are wide, I don't know that there is a payoff. Also, if you continue sandwiching the PCB coils and magnets again and again, with series wound coils you increase the resistance, which lowers efficiency. If you have that same configuration with parallel wound coils, you lose a lot of torque because the power of each coil is reduced. There probably is a sweet spot, but I don't think stacking indefinitely helps much.

[@ioanraduagim396]

Buen motor eléctrico y magnetico en la plataforma queda bien y el rotor cuantas revoluciónes tiene el motor axial magnetico

[@gkdresden]

Interesting. If you use the standard configuration of 6 coils and 8 magnets you can operate it with a usual ESC. For me a PCB copper layer offers not enough "flesh" for the copper conductor coils (35 µm copper layer) with respect to the PCB thickness. So I would use a thin PCB (0.5 mm) only as the carrier for pancake coils. The thickness of the PCB doesn't matter, if you operate a double sided coil system in a double permanent magnet rotor configuration. The forces in z direction compensate each other. You can magnetically short the back sides of the permanent magnets by use of a thin low carbon steel ring in order to increase the magnetic flux in the air gap between the magnets.

[@TheOne10525]

I have a question, can i use a pcb axial flux motor as a generator but spin the pcb to generate the power!?

[@jimmym2719]

Cool it is..why the bifiliar won’t cancel out each other?

[@edwingolddelirium]

you can Use a harddisk motor on the axle that's only 5 to 9 volt. Only to make an adapter for the motor to the axle.

[@anggressetiawan2659]

pcb beli di mana pak

[@MasterIvo]

I have been wondering about this, based on repulsion. building it now just for fun to see if it works

[@PerpetualMotor]

Here’s a tip: a bunch of straight wires is probably just as effective as a coil, and likely far more space efficient. Good luck, and let me know if you have any questions on the build.

[@barrydean5202]

What PWM model are you using for this motor? Thanks.

[@PerpetualMotor]

RioRand 7-70V PWM DC Motor Speed Controller Switch 30A www.amazon.com/dp/B071NQ5G71/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_i_S5YDEH02Y7BRRCZFA0DM?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

[@mykedoes4099]

keep your trigger coil resistance below 8 ohm , if the trigger coil is to thin and too many windings with too much impedance it will take more flux to trigger the 3055

[@PerpetualMotor]

The trigger coils are bifilar. The resistance is 3.8ohms. I'm not sure that it matters that much. Like I mentioned in the video, in my experience, it seems that the trigger coil's ability to couple with it's paired power coil is more important than anything. I've tried various trigger coil wire thicknesses, coil turns, and orientations with respect to power coils. Based on all of this, the proximity to the moving magnet, and it's ability to resonate with the power coil seem to be what makes the system work at all. But, mass of wire mass and coil turns seem to improve the ability to start at lower power inputs.

[@mykedoes4099]

@@PerpetualMotor less turns thicker awg (trigger winding) if its bifilar then just lower the awg on the trigger coil only

[@EnergySeeker]

you can use a dril to start it :)

[@miroslawkaras7710]

Cen you make iductive motor with the magnets with the same design?

[@PerpetualMotor]

Yes. I actually never thought about doing that, but it would be much easier to assemble AND be much thinner.

[@jprice1122]

Sound= vibration =losses. Beautiful build! Have you looked into magnetic bearings? I have reached 7500 rpm with a much more primitive setup. Keep up the good work!

[@PerpetualMotor]

Thank you. I'd like to find out more about that light you kept lit for 4 months! Dual axial flux with magnetic bearings? That might be above my pay grade. ;-) With the level of precision needed between the PCB and the rotating magnets, I'd have to figure out a way to not only hold the load with the bearings, but keep the orientation between the stator and rotor consistent. I may have to pass on that challenge...for now.

[@mmks8502]

can I get the gerber file ?

[@DeeP_BosE]

pcb motors are usually dead silent cud be a balancing issue or both mech n electrical.

[@rameshkawade7574]

Breakthrough 🎉

[@nettoyerautomotives9291]

Greetings from India. I appreciate you for responding lot of comments. You have good attention toward your audience. Can you please help me understand, why these type of motors are not widely used in consumer electricals. What are the drawbacks of such motors? What is the limitation in such geometry? Please respond. Thank you. Great Video

[@mauricewright9887]

Axial designs are gaining ground. They are not widely used ... yet ... because radial flux was designs were getting the job done well enough. I do see potential applications in consumer electronics (fans, toys, toothbrushes, etc), but the architecture has only recently been getting attention. The only functional drawback I see, when compared to radial flux motors, is maybe with assembling them. But, right now, the supply chain for radial flux parts is dwarfed by many orders of magnitude compared to radial flux motors. However, when comparing the two, it's like comparing flat TVs to the cathode ray tube (CRT) televisions. When compared to flatscreen TVs, there really aren't that many applications where a tube TV is better. That will eventually be the case with axial flux vs radial flux. Now that I think about it, though, radial flux motors do use a lot more copper. For someone industrious enough to make useful work out of the associated back EMF and inductance, there may be something else that radial flux motors can be good for.

[@Ray88G]

Where did you order these PCB boards?

[@PerpetualMotor]

JLCPCB.com

[@mmsti7867]

What is the torque of this motor? Is it more efficient than copper winding one?

[@PerpetualMotor]

There is zero starting torque. I have not yet measured how much there is when it's running.

[@redesign3dp]

Great video. Get a 3d printer and save on prototyping cost. Plus you can make symmetrical parts. Keep at it!

[@PerpetualMotor]

I wish. It's not that I don't want one, or can't afford one. I just don't have the space. I like your Bedini Motor.

[@redesign3dp]

@@PerpetualMotor Thanks, Bedini motors got me started into electronics. That last motor I posted actually has usable torque. Rotor magnets inside the coil is the way to go. You should look in to it, I bet you could add something.

[@onlyme3543]

How would you make it self start?

[@PerpetualMotor]

I’d need to connect a hall sensor or reed switch with a momentary switch. I did that in a previous video with my 6 coil motor.

[@martinpena9428]

Under Load what is the torque output? Temperature?

[@PerpetualMotor]

I haven't tested the torque output yet. Because the wiring is so thin a current above 2 amps requires a voltage over 40 volts, or so. My circuit usually fries at voltages just slightly above that.

[@jvon3885]

Its not letting me edit my post but I wanted to add that I think part of my system would be a good component to your device.

[@jvon3885]

I do 3D printing and animation. I use blender and can create simulations soon once I get the software. Like I said just hit me up. I am working with 3D printing with carbon fyber layers.

[@PerpetualMotor]

That sounds interesting. Can you 3D print the carbon fiber? I noticed that conductive carbon doesn't seem to have a Lenz effect. If you could print a pancake coil made of carbon it would be awesome to see if it actually generates a magnetic field.

[@jvon3885]

@@PerpetualMotor hit me up via email. I'm actually trying to work with formlabs on creating such a material. I can't print with it and don't know of any that can yet but it's constantly changing. However I can add carbon fiber layers for strength.

[@jvon3885]

@@PerpetualMotor did you ever receive my email? I would really like to chat with you.

[@PerpetualMotor]

@@jvon3885 KZbin's comment handling is not very good. Once I've read a message from someone they seem to disappear. I can't find any reference to an email. However, you can send messages at the PerpetualMotor Facebook page at facebook.com/perpetualmotor .

[@michaelsell9012]

What if you stagger magnets on opposite sides

[@PerpetualMotor]

Staggering magnets on opposite sides would defeat the purpose of this design if I understand your question correctly. To get a really strong magnetic field, there needs to be two magnets in very close proximity with a coil in between. Staggering would significantly reduce the strength of the field.

[@noutram1000]

Try a 3 phase design with 12 EMs and 16 PMs. PMs and EMs can be smaller, those magnets and EMs are pretty big. Also have a look at this: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bGOacmOVaMqUpKM

[@PerpetualMotor]

I haven't finished watching the video, but thanks for putting that together. It would have been a great resource back when I first started building motors.

[@parmmohan4603]

Start it up like the Flinstones

[@PerpetualMotor]

LOL!

[@rameshkawade7574]

It's just like spinner toy with external magnetic flux

[@mykedoes4099]

see my energy loop circuit

[@PerpetualMotor]

Where can I see it?

[@mykedoes4099]

@@PerpetualMotor see if you can understand this 1st kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y3ixf6CAmZ19mck then look at this diagram kzbin.info/www/bejne/jXmXqJSqj7GbhaM

[@PerpetualMotor]

@@mykedoes4099 It looks like in the 2nd video you have a circuit that, depending on how the switching is timed, could deliver the BEMF from one active drive battery to an inactive drive battery, then alternate. I'm not sure about the switch timing, though, because once you turn one off, and the other on, the time constant for the coil will dictate how much time is needed for the BEMF pulse to go to the 2nd battery. This has to happen, though, before the 2nd battery becomes active I would think. The idea does seem to have a lot of potential, though.

[@mykedoes4099]

@@PerpetualMotor (switch timing) that is why the two independent bedini bifilars are positioned 90 degree apart. and the magnets on rotor are 180 degree apart, this way only one bifilar is triggered at a time,

[@mykedoes4099]

@@PerpetualMotor ;) it's a unbuilt proto type be the 1st to do an open source build. GL

[@aggabus]

Loud

[@KOl-xj4jt]

rotate coils not magnet

[@michaelsell9012]

Instead of pcb coil. How about a coil made the same way a processor is made...

[@PerpetualMotor]

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you just referring to something that's at a much smaller scale?

[@fglatzel]

Two things here: 1. Why use round coils and not wedge shaped coils? 2. Why use magnets? Just simulate an induction motor on PCB -Yes, that's right. No PCB motor needs a single magnet, ever!

[@andrewsmalley4138]

Very nice but on no account is this "world's first"

[@PerpetualMotor]

If someone else has used a Bedini circuit in an axial flux motor thin or not, please share.

[@andrewsmalley4138]

@@PerpetualMotor google yourself, or jsut look here on youtube,, stop being silly and proud

[@mattmoreira210]

I’m sorry to tell you, but such a thing was invented quite a while ago. Just because you haven’t heard of it before, doesn’t mean it’s new. Also, it is by no means a “perpetual” motor.

[@PerpetualMotor]

There’s another dual axial flux motor that uses John Bedini pulse DC control circuits? And, no. The motor is not perpetual. Sorry to disappoint. PerpetualMotor is only the name of this channel, not a description of the motor in the video.

[@kaervas]

Is awsome, but i vote dislike because is not the first

[@PerpetualMotor]

It's the first with the pulse circuit that I'm using. Half of the coils are powered normally. The other half are powered by the BEMF drawn from the normally powered coils.

[@younglinkdavi]

Worlds first sounds like its not Worlds and its not the first

[@PerpetualMotor]

You're not the first to misread the title. If you know of another axial flux motor using a variation of John Bedini's circuitry - which, among other things uses a trigger coil instead of a reed switch, optical sensor, hall effect sensor, or anything else, and reuses the BEMF from the primary set of coils - then I'd be more than happy to revise the claim.