The worst gameplay mechanic in Street Fighter history

[@Rooflemonger]

So honestly I was just sitting around, thinking about the mechanic in question, and just got really mad for no reason so I figure why not make a video about it? I am sure a lot of yall got your own opinions on worst SF mechanic ever, but not a single one of you can argue against the fact that Vega has it unnecessarily rough

[@jasminsolano6302]

Im not a Vega main but wow you just opened my eyes man. I knew losing the mask would put you at a disadvantage but not this much. Also losing the mask = deal more damage and take more damage. That's just ridiculous, I can understand why becuz the mask protects his face but jeeez.

[@HunnyDoo]

I'm baffled this video wasn't about Pandora mode in SFxT

[@Greg501-]

Um, actually, his name is Balrog :)

[@Rooflemonger]

@@RebornOdin Stun is a universal mechanic that effects everyone. I have zero issue with it. Vega's issues are purely his own and nobody in SF history has to deal with anything remotely like it.

[@Demonfish808]

The idea of a character dropping his weapon as they get damaged would be better if the character who upon dropping the weapon changes their stance and gets a different moveset, which is stronger as it might have a cmd grab or new pokes for instance.

[@kyleolson8977]

The worst mechanic in Street Fighter history is the guy in the orange vest on Guile's stage. He should be fixing that F16, but instead he's watching a fight with his girlfriend.

[@MrKilljay]

You telling me that if two people were fighting right in front of you, shooting plasma out of their hands and shit, you wouldn't stop and watch too?

[@AdversaryOne]

I work around military aircraft mechanics and trust me, he is very accurate to real life.

[@TheGeniusRap]

This whole conversation is hilarious

[@mibbzx1493]

I see no issues with this 🤣 he’s been doing this for 20+ years cuz he’s on the old stage too

[@kyleolson8977]

@@MrKilljay Sure, it would be fun to match your Air Force buddy kickflip into the air while fighting a guy with arms that violate your understanding of the human body. But when "guy with sunglasses sitting on box" and his navigator "guy without sunglasses on a box" take that F16 out on a mission to stop the nuclear capability of "the enemy", and the plane fails pulling out of a dive, and when that failure is because of an electrical fault that would been caught if orange vest just did his job, it won't seem like such a great decision.

[@abbyrytel]

Get rid of "lose the claw," definitely, but honestly... I kinda like "lose the mask, now Vega's pissed." He's a narcissist; he's worried you'll scratch his beautiful face. It's perfectly in-character. If anything, I'd just balance it so it's his own mini-comeback mechanic, maybe taking a bit more damage but dealing enough more that it's worth it (and you can't remove it manually).

[@krypticavalanch]

it needs to be manual and not auto, as it should be a decision. auto means he gets beat up in corner, lose mask, take more damage. his comeback doesnt happen because hes getting pinned. manual is like zues vs rikki ortiz.

[@larquefausse3623]

I like removing the mask manually. I always did it to sort of passively taunt the oppo.

[@monchete9934]

In SFV they did it so you can manually remove the mask

[@iHIMMA]

@@krypticavalanch Having it be manual defeats the purpose of him getting mad about losing it lol

[@107Pedro]

Its already like that, losing the mask in sf4 and 5 gives you 10% extra damage and you take 10% more

[@bigredradish]

absolutely agree. it's a single player mechanic in a two-player game as far as I'm concerned. like I imagine it was originally like "let's throw them a bone for hitting the unplayable boss character enough"

[@Ottrond]

when I was a kid Vega was the most difficult character to win against in arcade mode by far, because of his range and confusing specials with built in crossups and shit

[@romainramel1919]

@@Ottrond All boss overall were insane in world warriors because they had short hurtbox and unlimited active frames on jumping attack, which is why Vega was hard to beat. he jumped too much.

[@BigDaddyCola]

Dont forget the unique wall jump and cage climb that was in his stage only. Definitely a mechanic for a single player experience and not a competitive fighter

[@vDeadbolt]

It's also funny because those stages are banned in competitive play

[@reeidly]

I always found it so weird that this was something that stuck around, tbh. It seemed like something that would get left in the 90's

[@ShinxBOOM247]

It's worth bringing up that Vega losing his claw and mask were particularly awful in Vanilla SF4. In this version, Vega was already the worst character in the game, sporting bad frame advantage on everything, mediocre specials, bad EX's, and the worst Ultra in the game. On top of all of that, the weaknesses of losing his claw and ESPECIALLY his mask were more pronounced here, with it being easier to lose them by getting hit or blocking and the amount of damage he takes from having the mask off being much higher (taking 1.25x damage for having no mask). His armaments also get knocked off based on number of hits rather than damage, meaning he loses it extremely fast to characters like Gen or Chun (or immediately losing both if he ever gets hit by Akuma's Ultra)

[@Vulgun]

I feel what they should do for Vega's claw, if they HAVE to keep the mechanic, is to basically give him MORE options and better frame data without the claw. Maybe something like: -Vega's attacks have 1 frame less start-up and 2 frames less endlag -Vega gains multiple new moves unique to no-claw, which are faster and more devastating -Vega's specials can now wall bounce twice instead of once, making him less predictable

[@esoteric7990]

Vega's claw mechanic reminds me of the Pokemon Archeops and its Defeatist ability. The pokemon has high atk/sp.atk/speed stats, but when its health is halved its offensive stats are halved as well. Both aren't balanced properly for the nerf they receive.

[@RicochetForce]

That's a perfect comparison. Holy SHIT is Archeops miserable to use because of that.

[@esoteric7990]

@@RicochetForce Yeah with it losing 25% just by Stealth Rock in play

[@TerminaBroTheFirst]

@@RicochetForce The main issue with Arceops is because it has to commit to either Head Smash which is very counter intuitive because of its ability or the unreliable Stone Edge so that it can use its high attack That Pokemon just needs its ability to be fixed or have a safe and strong rock type move

[@RicochetForce]

@@TerminaBroTheFirst Unfortunately, due to its stats it was intentionally saddled with that garbage ability and moveset issues. Regigigas is another example of this.

[@juanrodriguez9971]

Lmao, I was thinking the exact same, is such a weird nerf yet among the bad abilities, that fossil bird has the best nerfing ability of 'em all, because is not like Regigigas 5 turns mechanic (imagine a fighter not being able to use his max potential for like 15 seconds and every time he walks back he has to wait again without walking back, too stupid), or Lopunny's ability which makes her unable to use items (now imagine a fighter not able of blocking or jumping, equally stupid), at least Archeops can be used for a few turns.

[@omegasmesh]

I will always be baffled by SFV Vegas claw. I love him being a stance character but literally crippling him that hard is so stupid. Would've been better if they give a claw health mechanic where he loses it if he blocks or takes too much damage it's disabled, but he can regain life faster if he switches stance or hits with the broken claw

[@MansMan42069]

My idea was to give him an EX Stance Switch. If he's lost his claw, he replaces it. If he still has it (on or off), he'll throw the old one as a projectile and replace it. This would allow for Claw to Claw strings. Also the Claw itself should have a Blood gauge that fills the more you attack with it. At full gauge, claw attacks cause Bleed, which turns grey damage (from armour or blocked nornals) into real damage and any current white life they had begins to drain.

[@Rooflemonger]

And as I state in the vid I was indeed a Vega main in SFV back when I played it heavily in Season 1 and 2, and its a large part of the reason why I am so jaded against the game lol. Of the launch roster he had the walkspeed, normals(good for s1 anyways) and the grab, and I just can't do negative edge characters like Birdie. If only I stuck with Chun I would have saved myself a lot of heartache lol

[@Rooflemonger]

@@Zevox87 I have never been a Zangief guy. I know most people probably think it but never been the case. Back at the very beginning I played Honda(and chun) cause I could slap buttons and get moves cause I couldn't figure out motions. Then by the time he rolled around I was on the T.Hawk train and he was always my preferred SF big character. I will never say never to Gief in the upcoming SF6 but we got 2 potential grapplers in marisa and mimi, and I can still go for Honda and Chun as always too.

[@xaahd1430]

Capcom has heard you. Jaime's juice jug is now droppable on hit.

[@prof.laytonfan764]

And also we nerfed Zangief again lmao.

[@6die9ne]

@@prof.laytonfan764 Still no Zangief green hand :(

[@markalexander6036]

Interesting. I come from a background in Samurai Shodown where you lose your weapon quite regularly when you are hit by a super. Samsho's lose weapon mechanic also affects some characters more than others. A character like Galford is almost entirely intact without his weapon while Yoshitora is a shadow of his former self. I don't think these types of lose more mechanics are bad by default though. In Yoshitora's case, he needs to be especially cautious when an opponent has access to super (in rage). In other words, a skilled Yoshi has the opportunity to avoid his crippling weakness. Street Fighter's Claw on the other hand is unique because he loses his weapon from regular hits which can't as easily be avoided (unless he is SSF2 Turbo god tier). And since Claw is the only one who suffers this weakness in Street Fighter, I imagine it makes certain players turned off from playing him. I wonder if the solution should be to change the way his weapon loss works rather than remove the mechanic entirely.

[@DJMopTop]

I'm with you and this is a short reply but SF isn't designed around the same concept as SS. As a Hazno I enjoying having all my specials at my finger tips but for SF the same can't be applied. I'd consider playing Vega if it wasn't so punishing to get hit, stance characters are so cool!

[@markalexander6036]

@@DJMopTop Well, that is true. Street Fighter and Samsho are different games in design. But, we could possibly turn to Samsho for inspiration on how to change Claw's mechanic. Some characters in Samsho actually get a buff when they are weaponless. In Samsho 5 Sp, Rimururu's unarmed 66c is objectively better than her armed 66c and is arguably one of the best kicks in the game (safe, hits low, knocks down, can combo into chase for large damage). So, perhaps the solution is to change Claw's mechanic from a nerf to a burf. Maybe he loses damage but gets access to a new move and receives an increase in speed.

[@neogiu000]

There's also the fact that in samsho anyone can lose their weapon In SF it's just Vega in the whole ass game

[@armtc]

@@markalexander6036 Of course there are possible solutions. However, we're not talking about "what if's". Facts are, Vega gets nerfed from losing his weapon, and he's the only one in SF to do so. Therefore, it cannot be compared to SS. This is why the video is about the worst mechanic in SF, not in "fighting games".

[@fissilewhistle]

“If Dhalsim takes damage, do his limbs not travel as far?” God, I wish.

[@liovox]

Imagine an alternate world where instead of having a worser, more stubby moveset upon loosing the claw, vega then becomes a swift, high power grappler.

[@Rooflemonger]

well thats half the idea of sfv, except losing the claw is still a crippling blow because theres no reason to give up the good normals cause you blocked a bit too much

[@Vherstinae]

"Show me a good time, Jack."

[@BeefisGolden]

As a Vega main, you are doing god's work.

[@mibbzx1493]

Facts (also Vega main)

[@DCFHazardRebornChannel]

You guys are Vega mains? My god, I pitty your souls for even choosing him as a main.... such bad taste 🤡 (Says the man that was so crazy about Vega as a child I would fashion claws of my own and squeek as if I am jumping on my prey from the sky, hahahaha) Jokes aside, he is a cool character I believe. Reckon they might rethink some of these things if they bring him back to SF6? Or you think they are done with him as a henchman and Bison altogether?

[@IandIMspentI]

Oh, you don't even have to get hit to lose the claw in SF4. You get to lose your claw for BLOCKING. Don't remember how it is in 5, but that was insane in 4/other games. I get *why* it's done. He was a boss character and it was cool to knock his stuff off. But that didn't need to continue when he became playable.

[@picilifedeath]

I never understood why Vega/Claw is the only character that looses it's weapon when characters like Rolento and SF 5 Poison can still keep their weapons. In the future, I will like to see that every weapons characters looses if Vega/Claw return with his mechanic.

[@MiketheNerdRanger]

Y'know what? I never thought about it. Though now that you've explained it, yeah. Its pretty f**king stupid. It seems like a 1 player boss fighting mechanic when this isn't that kind of game, which makes it completely out of place.

[@AirLancer]

Well, it was that kind of game in the original SF2:WW, where Vega and the other 4 Kings weren't playable characters. But yeah, nowadays it's a pointless tradition that time should've left behind.

[@107Pedro]

@@AirLancer don't forget that vega was the only one with a weapon, now we had Rolento, Poison and Sodom but Vega is the only that loses his weapon

[@GreatWomp]

The whole build up till like 1:40 in I was absolutely just shouting at my screen that it had to be Vegas claw drop. I cheered so much when you finally got to it. Vega has been my boy for a long time, but God dammit I hate the claw drop so much

[@P3rks0fLife]

Whoever designed Vega’s claw to not come back in SF5 should prolly be moved to a different department cuz holy shit

[@internetmovieguy]

I thought you were going to say “force stand normal that whiffs on crouchers”

[@salinalunara]

I think the claw and mask was originally made that way because he was a Boss Character. I mean, in SF2/etc having that kinda range is cheating lol. Everybody else fighting with they hands and feet, and then here comes Casey Jones with the Wolverine Claws. He even had special stage interactions with his stage, although I can't remember if you could do that as a player tbh. If you playing with your friends and you got Vega, but you still losing with that extended hitbox, you don't deserve the claws anymore lol. All that being said, once time went on, they probably should've revisited the mechanic and figured out a different way to navigate it. It's like they took a Samurai Shodown thing and put it in SF, which is funny when you think about it that way. Like a lot of things in SF, it just became a legacy feature. The stance thing in SFV is a pretty cool exploration of it, and I'd imagine it was probably *supposed* to be the solution to losing your claws, but maybe having the claw loss be on a cooldown, or having stance switching restore claw durability or something like that would've worked better. It's funny because I don't think it would've been an issue in something like GG. Heck, they'd have probably had a meter or something for it. Or you use a special to get it back... something. But if there's one thing I know, it's that Street Fighter is a series that people like to have some degree of stability and familiarity with it. Having too many new features scares folks, lol. Anyways, this was a cool vid that made me think about the claw mechanic in a way that I hadn't considered before, so it was fun to think about it from the perspective of general game design and not just competitive gameplay.

[@randaljr.8581]

well said

[@mibbzx1493]

Nah vega doesn’t even have the most range so its not cheating 🤣 poison, dhalsim, zeku, bison ect. He trash asf and only just becomes more trash without

[@fissilewhistle]

If Vega was in Strive, there would absolutely be some sort of claw meter.

[@diangelo786]

@@mibbzx1493 he was saying Vega’s range was cheating on SF2, not SFV

[@lukemacinnes5124]

I feel if they want to keep the claw dropping mechanic he needs to be kind of busted with it, so it's sort of fair if he loses it and becomes kind of bad, then he'd be a good glass cannon type of character, but as is it's just normal character to bad character

[@phdbot4483]

See, if this was just SF2 alone, the claw loss would've made sense for the unplayable boss character back then, and given how OP he was back when he became playable in SF2T, but for SF4 and onward, not so much as he's no longer strong enough to warrant the crippling weakness. Considering SFV also made him a stance character with claw/no claw, it seems rather counter-intuitive to make him lose basically one of his two stances.

[@VileLasagna]

Not SF, but shoutout to Reversal Edge in Soul Calibur 6. No idea who thought stopping the match to roll dice playing Rock, Paper, Scissors would be fun in any way

[@Rooflemonger]

Reversal edge was a big part of the reason why SC6 never took off the way it should have. God awful mechanic

[@VileLasagna]

@@Rooflemonger Even sadder when the rest of the game was a big step up in core mechanics. New soul charge was fantastic, they basically fixed supers and guard impacts (which had gone from OP to not worth meter). Movelists weren't back to, say, the glory days of 4, but they were coming back from the oversimplfication of 5, with a bunch of weird interesting ideas thrown there as character specific mechanics..... 6 had a lot going for it. I hope they keep moving in a good direction. Feels like the last SC that didn't do something weirdly garbage alongside the regular improvements was 3 (MAYBE the generic weaponsets there? Some of those felt like troll movesets)

[@VileLasagna]

@@Zevox87 To get that you would need to know if a best option exists for each character and I think the only one I know for sure is Nightmare, since his kick option gives him the charge-up. Normally it just felt like you were going all in on randomness. So the break-up just gave you a long enough time to sigh and make you long for 3 seconds prior, when you were playing Soul Calibur, as you wait for the dice to stop rolling. It just wasn't engaging 90% of the time so for me, massive miss, though I'll grant there IS a nugget of a mind game there. Also, leaving SC for smash? Such disgrace, lol. It was never my thing as anything other than a party game, unfortunately. I just don't jive with the general mechanics and movement I guess. Great fun when no one knows how to play, tho

[@FrMZTsarmiral]

Yeah. Reversal Edge was such an eyesore. Even other bad mechanics like Danger Time in Guilty Gear Xrd or LVL3 X Factor in Marvel 3 were fun in a ridiculous way. Reversal Edge just kills the pacing of the match and requires a lot of explaining to understand what button beats what, it doesn't even feel like it follows the natural logic of the gameplay.

[@juniperrodley9843]

So essentially, Vega's opponent gets a comeback mechanic for winning

[@Rooflemonger]

yep

[@leonardwashington7189]

V Trigger is goated simply because Kenny Omega named his signature move because of it

[@L337Koala]

While you lose your claw when you get beat up, you gain an excuse to blame your loss on. So there's that.

[@stridertakahashi4120]

I feel like sf6 and its mechanics have the perfect way to work around this. Make him lose the claws if he hits burnout. It's still going to be a lose more mechanic so it doesn't step on tradition but it's also something that's in your hands and plays with the whole point of sf6 and its emphasis on meter management and avoiding burnout state

[@Knightimex]

As Vega, if I lose my claw I immediately become even more aggressive. Sometimes in ST I don't even try to get the claw back, I just focus on killing in an even sweatier fashion.

[@KodmaniacX]

Yeah the declawing mechanic sucks, but this video has just made me think of stupid ways to game-ify the process of getting the claw back. Maybe if you get to a distance and taunt Vega whips out a remote control and a drone flies the claw back to him? Honestly I just want to see the mechanic stick around in hopes of Capcom starting to embrace the stupidity of it all.

[@Vegachamp]

This man is speaking straight facts. I’m so used to this mechanic I’ve never actually thought about how much of a detriment it is. Maybe, just maybe Vega will be a beast again in sf6. It’s been 25 years…

[@magpie54]

Maybe Vega in SF6 could lose the claw while in burn out, but then takes out another one when he exits. Or have him automatically leave burn out if he pick it up giving him risk reward for trying to collect the claw while also having shorter and weaker normals. Alternatively, they could make Vega a setplay character by having him able to pull the claw back to him with a rope or something and damage the opponent in the process.

[@powertrip8676]

The worst one is definitely v trigger as a whole. Locking your characters full potential until you lose enough health. Fuck that shit.

[@shinobivice1800]

I played a little Vega in sfxt, he's arguably worse there. All his really good moves are low attacks. And for those that utilize a games full mechanics, all low attacks lose to launchers. So he gets stuffed all the time. Miss you sfxt. Good times. 8 player lobbys with mics was mad fun.

[@TehDompie]

Before watching the video I am thinking it's the mechanic in SF1 where how hard you press the button affects the in game strength L, M, or H. Edit: I was wrong lol

[@marche800]

Mmm I feel like the worst mechanic would probably be Necali, like he rose out of an ancient crypt he definitely doesn't know how to work a screwdriver and wouldn't have the patience, reading comprehension or self control to learn and would probably just get frustrated and destroy it.

[@f1r3hunt3rz5]

The mask being detachable should stay, but the claw mechanic needs to go away.

[@UberWraith]

I think that, if Vega ( 'Claw' , just to avoid confusion with JP Vega 'Dictator') should return in SF6, they could easily remove his claw and mask in a single specific situation: Burnout. After all, we saw that all the characters presented so far change their stance when in a Burnout status (Guile for example goes to his 'hunched' posture which he had in SF4), so they could change the stance of Claw to that of a clawless, maskless character until he exits the Burnout status. And of course, Burnout being already a big penalty, they should NOT change his other properties (frame data, damage potential, range, and so on), just a visual cue as 'character legacy'.

[@gamerookie09]

Well considering Vega is bottom 3 in SF4 and SF5, this argument makes sense to me.

[@ArtFr0g0]

A video about various mechanics (that stood out as great or flops) in all kinds of fighting games would be sweet.

[@Rooflemonger]

maybe, just maybe

[@Ramsey276one]

Yes please!

[@GLaSSesNOlenses]

Lmao! You have no idea how many times I'm playing Vega (My #2/ Second Main) and I find myself saying or screaming "Oh shit, my claw!!!!" Only hope I have after that is my command grab and my parry v trigger

[@TheBriguy1998]

Can I just say the stun is something I see very few people talk about as being as dumb as it is. Even when you can see the actual bar, it's still, just like Vega's claw, a lose more mechanic. Thank god it doesn't work the same way in SF6.

[@franciscolemedasilva4648]

I think it is not that bad because differently than Vega’s claw, getting stunned is common to all characters. (Although the stun bar is different depending on the character).

[@TheBriguy1998]

@@franciscolemedasilva4648 Not all character are built to make as good use of it though. Mixup characters can get lucky and manage to put you in a stun (or potential stun) situation off of one bad "decision". On the other hand, zoners can stop your approach but won't usually be dealing lots of damage all at once. Even if it was balanced between characters, that doesn't make it a good mechanic.

[@ciscorey6520]

The claw loss is a counter-measure to being given a god-like poke range. Vega simply starts the match with an advantage that he hopes to maintain-it's always been his gimmick. Now if we want to have a conversation about bad mechanics, we have to start the conversation off with SF4's focus attacks. Undoubtedly.

[@Rooflemonger]

outside of fHP(which is risky) vega isn't even a top 5 poke character in SFV lol. There is no advantage at all.

[@raggaeldestro8609]

The claw is a judgement mechanic. If you lose it that means you were outplayed/played badly or didn't play to the character's strength.

[@logancooper3625]

The worst mechanic in Street Fighter is the fact that Zangief is low tier.

[@gilet102]

He’s just a specialist character design for players who enjoy putting in the time to learn all the intricacies. I’m sure the Vega players who put in the time with him have no issue putting in the work. That’s why a Vega whooping ass is so hype. I guess losing the claw forever really sucks but that’s honestly what made him interesting imo

[@ZzigZaG00NIN]

I'm still confused on why they had it brake in sfv it wasn't strong enough to have the side effect negative and they have characters like Dhalsim, poison and falke who can poke a lot better than him with no side effect to it

[@disonalvan]

i really like Vega and have tried playing him in SF5, but as i was learning how to play fighting games properly, losing the claw made it much more difficult(learn more combos, learn 2 neutral game behaviors, etc) I wish they would double down on the stance mechanic and make the claw have limited uses while regenerating on the unarmed stance or something like this, or maybe even a stock system like ibuki/kimberly

[@arachnofiend2859]

SFV making him into a stance character is a great solution to keeping the claw/no claw differences without making it cripple him... which makes it even weirder that he can still lose the claw.

[@AlexanderMartinez-kd7cz]

you can come up with an argument for the claw falling off, but it being permanently lost is just pure bullshit.

[@Ichithix]

Weren't there some clawless to clawless stance combos he could only do in a disarmed state? Anyway the solution is simple, lean into that and make that "empty" stance cancel scary enough that him being disarmed means Claw getting a touch would be very bad for the opponent. Also they could tweak the frame data once he loses the claw to make him overall a little scarier, and represent a kind of desperation. They absolutely should not get rid of the disarm mechanic, it's too unique, especially in a game that doesn't differentiate it's characters nearly as much as something like GG or BB.

[@MrCactuar13]

The worst mechanic in SF history was the big rubber buttons in SF1

[@Rooflemonger]

those buttons were fun I used them as a kid you punch them really hard! Thats probably also why the kick button was busted lol

[@Roze_aye]

I dont specifically hate v trigger. I just really hate the ones that only give you a buff to your moves. Like I really like rashid's giant tornado v trigger. but his other v trigger just feels like a bit extra stats and a combo beginning reset

[@YouGuessIGuess]

I love Vega and was happy with most of the changes to his moveset in SFV. (stance, no longer reliant on charges, fancy frilly shirt) but permanently losing the claw was never fun. Vega loses his claw because he's a villainous cheater who uses a weapon, so when you're playing against him it feels satisfying to take him down a peg. What's more classic than a preening bad guy who pulls a knife to win a fistfight against our hero? But like you said, he's rarely strong enough competitively for this story/character/archtype-driven gameplay mechanic to feel fun for long. I wish he was on the launch roster but hopeful that he'll make it in as DLC with a glued-on claw this time. I do like that he loses the mask, but it should make him pissed and serve as more of a comeback mechanic in line with other characters than merely a debuff.

[@fennicfox4600]

I like to believe, Vega in sf6 is gonna go full Alisa and become a cyborg to not only to preserve his beauty but also replace his claw with an indestructible chainsaw!

[@Craft2299]

Nagoryuki in Strive I feel is similar, but in essence he can get his "claw" back. This is how I can imagine Vega working, as a "One shot" character where he has to have the momentum, or struggle in an uphill battle. Characters in fighting games with armor, where they still loose health but power through the attack are also those that miss the opportunity to use a toolset at a certain point.

[@Cassapphic]

I like the idea of having a character who more than the rest of the cast changes as the fight goes on. Maybe if when the claw breaks there’s positives too? The stance change system in sfv kinda does that idea well already but alongside the mask breaking I love the idea of “as you beat up this narcissist he starts to unravel and become more and more mad at you, but he needs to not be as hampered by losing the claw, make it be an “oh shit” moment as much as a “hell yeah” moment for both players

[@jamarr27]

1000% agree. Hes the only char who gets this kind of treatment with crap V-triggers

[@jamarr27]

@@Stinkyremy yup, he has 2 and both of the stupidly put you in the corner, then they gave him his back flip and command kick as a damn V-Skill like they couldnt come up with something better

[@TheCrimsonCat89]

Or he ductapes utensils to his knuckles xD

[@CrossfacePanda]

I do think there’s ways to make a mechanic like Vega’s interesting, but the implementation hasn’t been the best. I actually think it could work quite well if Vega was in an MvC game, and he was super strong by default. Maybe having claw builds less hitstun decay than every other character, while having mask gives one hit of armor on everything he does by default. But if he loses them (through whatever means that would be), he now causes more hitstun decay, loses armor (maybe take slightly more damage too), and has less hitsun decay on himself as well when being combo’d. This makes him a unique team mate that could either add more to the team by facilitating unique combo routes, or detract by being combo’d easier instead. Makes him a super swingy character with unique flavour, while retaining his og gimmick in a fresh way. Might allow him to regain mask and claw via a super though, like Arthur.

[@markomanx]

Mask off is just Shin Vega lmao. I do wish I could get the claw back in SFV tho.

[@Carlitonsp1]

This mechanic made a lot more sense when Vega wasn't a playable character. (He was added in the Champion Edition of 2) That being said, I think it would be interesting if had a move that was High-Risk but high reward normally, but if you don't have the claw, you get the claw back.

[@nadavrot]

I honestly thought the combat mechanic in fighting games would be the subject of this video. How is it acceptable that when one players plays better the other gets a comeback option? Do professional marathon runners get a car or a canoe if they are far enough behind in the race?

[@FrMZTsarmiral]

Indeed. The video also makes the weird statement that fighting games are all about that but you rarely see comeback mechanics being so important before SF4. They were very minor or not present at all prior to that.

[@pockystyx4087]

ironically I feel like the Samsho mechanic of losing your weapons feels bad, but at least the game is already explosive and every fighter is tied to the mechanic.

[@antonsimmons8519]

The claw and the mask. Both stupid. I was practicing against him and I did a combo I knew did 653 damage. It did like 590 or something. Hooray for Vega, having that extra defense!...right? Not so much. That mask comes off if you breathe on him angrily, then he's squishy like a girl and does only normal damage because you've probably knocked his silly claw off too at that point. I always liked Vega, but never chose him as a main. All because of the stupid mask and claw.

[@birnbaum9852]

He don't have extra defense. it was most propably scaling. Just sayin

[@antonsimmons8519]

@@birnbaum9852 It was in practice mode, and it was starting from full health. The combo does 653 AFTER scaling(both on other characters, and Vega while he is without the mask), and once I had the mask off him, I waited until his health was full to do it again. The combo then did the full 653. The mask does add defense.

[@Loendall]

Completely agree :( It's a stupid tradition like "Vega has no reversal but hay, give every other top tier in the game suffocating pressure AND a reversal". Also I hate that his V-reversal doesn't work like a "get out of me" move.

[@whizthesugoi]

Finally a content creator addressed the urge to just say the name of the thing and cut to black when it comes to these kinds of titles

[@LordRaptor]

Idk man, characters with very specific strengths and weaknesses imo is what makes these characters interesting and worth playing, I guess nowadays that Vega doesn't necessarily have any definitive strengths the mechanic loses its appeal, but you have to take into account that back in the day in games like ST, Alpha 3 and CVS2 (and most of the 90s games Vega appeared in really) he was a lot stronger, so that was a nice way of balancing him, so it wasn't always a bad thing, V triggers on the other hand...I can do without, they just complicate the game further, make it more annoying and aren't even fun to begin with.

[@Rooflemonger]

Other characters who are stronger across all games, have no such comparable mechanic, they just remain strong the whole time.

[@FrMZTsarmiral]

Yeah. The mechanic is very unique and most people miss the point entirely of why it used to make sense. The real issue here is Vega being so weak even when he has the claw in SF4 and 5. The point was that he had an unfair advantage that could be lost, not that he was a character that gets weaker if you dare to block to much.

[@About9000]

If they absolutely have to keep the claw Mechanic, i think an interesting way to do the lost item mechanic would be if his EX and Supers bring them back, but with a hitbox. making the opponent guess weather its a good idea to prevent you from picking up the claw again would make the fights more dynamic

[@111percival]

the worst mechanic is gonna be that busted ass 1 frame omni-parry everyone has access to in SFVI

[@Rooflemonger]

that has counterplay, and is designed having that counterplay in mind. Actual bad mechanics would be SF3 parries, which do not have counterplay.

[@111percival]

@@Rooflemonger we shall see, but mk11 has a something similar and it's complete cancer to play against because you'll always worried about taking your turn back.🤷‍♂

[@thyduke3010]

I just cant agree. This is like the one mechanic that keeps vega interesting. Its not that this mechanic is bad because you loose more for loosing. Its good because it makes him a higher risk character

[@lobster6736]

I've been knowing and been into fighting game's for the last year or two and have like 50 hours on sfv and i had no fucking idea Vega's claw came off

[@Indignation6]

He still hasn't paid for his crime

[@Rooflemonger]

How about Cammy or Akuma start paying for their crimes? Vega has gotten it worse than anyone else ever

[@sapphiredagon]

I can't help but disagree with you, unless we talk about Hyper Fighting (I think that's the one where the claw loss is permanent?). In nearly every version of Street Fighter with this mechanic, Claw can just pick it back up by walking over to it. It's simple and easy, and a way to balance a character who is otherwise a really powerful rushdown who likes to stay moving anyways. Granted, I don't know much about SFIV, but in SSF2T, Claw can just go and pick up his claw at the price of having to spend a little bit more time. It also makes an interesting meta of the other character trying to guard the claw and prevent it from being picked up. Overall, I feel that it is a good mechanic, even if it _is_ a lose-more mechanic.

[@deschamos7599]

If Dhalsim takes damage, do his limbs not travel as far? If Guile takes damage, do his sonic booms somehow get worse? If Zangief takes damage, does his command grab, his big pile driver, does it lose range? Does it lose damage? No! Of course not. -Roofle 9:35

[@CoolAndNormal]

i always thought this was funny because, well, Cody has the same in reverse where he has to pick up his knife. what if Vega had to pick up the claw, and it was balanced around that instead?

[@Neo-Kable]

Year six and I just learned how Vega is played because of this video.

[@LeonHuart]

I mained Vega the entire duration of SFV, and while it was very tough to stay on board the ship at times i really liked how they changed him up in the game coming off SF4.

[@Rooflemonger]

vega eventually got decent in sfv. However by the time it happened I long since stopped playing

[@blackmanta2527]

The worst is Street fighter alpha 3 air recovery. Just ruined the fun from alpha 2

[@willmistretta]

The ability to break the claw was never about balance. It was meant to make the Vega boss fight more eventful and exciting at a time when he wasn't even a playable option (i.e. in World Warrior). In that context, it worked great. Keeping it for any playable version of Vega was the mistake.

[@dummyqt2947]

I get what you're saying but I think the idea of unique characters with jokingly bad mechanics are actually fun and a net positive for the game as a whole.

[@prawnk1ng]

I can’t remember which game but I’m certain he had a DP motion to respawn his claw. Might of been one of the EX series of game perhaps ?

[@ShinAkuma2]

I think SF4 let him manually remove and reattach his claw.

[@catnekokot]

Necalli got light version of "less option in time" thing - V-Trigger endless, so can't go back normal after activation; so - no v-reveresal or v-shift (no v-trigger activation either though it's almost impossible get 2 full 3-bar v-trigger in one round) until round ends

[@HoodWeegee]

I'd keep the mask tradeoff and if he does appear in SF6, have it where he only loses the mask if he gets wall splatted. If balanced right, it gives his opponent a choice: "Do I go for the big damage and wall splat him knowing that if I screw this up, he can easily get out and destroy MY life bar" OR "Do I play it safe and go for the reset so he doesn't even have that opportunity to go batshit insane." Obviously this is just of the top of my head so it's nothing amazing, but it would be a nice way to keep the tradition of Vega losing something for getting hit a lot, but also give him an advantage by kinda making it a free install of sorts.

[@NessOnett8]

The mask one actually feels good, because when he's super low health he's on death's door regardless and that extra 10% damage taken rarely matters. On the flipside doing 10% MORE damage to the enemy means that mounting a comeback is actually far easier for Vega compared to other characters in a vacuum. The claw one is weird in SFV. Because it's simultaneously the best and worst game to lose the claw. Because being clawless actually has an advantage, in having better frame data, combo potential, and access to extra moves(predominantly the command grab). So it's not just straight making the character worse. But on the other hand, he's far more reliant on being able to change stances actively, so in a lot of ways he's worse off losing access to a whole chunk of his kid unlike in the earlier games. But yeah, that can go away in SF6 and be none the worse for wear. But the mask I think can stay and be just fine. Or at the very least the mask should stay as a flavor/visual even if the mechanic is removed.

[@Rooflemonger]

losing half your moveset is in no unsure terms, making the character worse. There is no possible argument against it

[@FrMZTsarmiral]

I actually like the mechanic, it kinda gives Vega's playstyle a unique personality. He's narcissistic and cruel (portrayed by the unfair advantage of his moveset and range) but the moment his delusions of grandeur are broken, he will have an incredible hard time regaining the advantage (loses a big part of his unfair toolset) I don't see any issue with the mechanic itself but rather the balance around it. A super strong character that might have to pay a big price if he gets hit or even blocks too much is an interesting concept. Vega (in ST and A3) was super fast, had a dodge, great range and the like which kinda justify the mechanic to some extent. In comparison, Vega sucks in 4 and 5 and his strengths are barely noteworthy , so you go from a barely okayish character to an awful one if you lose the claw. Now losing the claw is no longer the price to pay for losing your momentum with a borderline OP character but just something that completely ruins an already mediocre character. Then again, maybe that's the price Vega has to pay for being top tier in A3 and ST.

[@macht242]

He's still paying for his sf2t sins lol.

[@msblackoozaru]

i understand people dont like comeback mechanics....but v-triggers are at least very creative, they are technically a X-factor but each and everyone of them is different and make the character plays in a very unique way, and not just more damage, for that matter alone(i mean its 90+ v-triggers and v-skills now) v-triggers cannot be that bad, they add a very needed flavor to the game and i really like how they end up in the last version of the game for the majority of the cast. People its time to make peace with SFV, because a lot of it will be a base for sf6, we are already seen this!

[@Stared-vf9eh]

As a Vega main: I completely agree, this mechanic shouldn't be in SF IV and V; in SF II at least you could argue that he needs it in order to balance him out (since he's kinda broken in that game) but in SF IV and V, he is already a low tier. I think the only reason he still has this is because of nostalgia

[@garou12]

Vega's design in V was so obsolete

[@ArkticDark]

As an ex-Vega main in SF5, I have to agree... I really didn't show Vega much attention until SFxTK and then when they changed up his inputs for SF5 I had to main him up until Lucia.

[@alainchristienemendoza9982]

Which one is better, cooler and done right, Instinct mode of Killer Instinct 2013 or V-Trigger of SFV?

[@bryantbest8372]

This was a great video. I just started getting into the FGC with SV5 so I'm happy to hear more of the lore as a beginner

[@emptyjumplow]

Welcome to the best gaming community bro lol.

[@Rooflemonger]

well there will be a lot more of it on the channel in the leadup to SF6 for sure, so stay tuned!

[@deathbringer9893]

atleast you know vega will always have bangers when it comes to his ost (we dont talk about his alpha ost)

[@Rooflemonger]

Vega;s themes are always S tier. You should listen to the rendition thats in smash ultimate

[@deathbringer9893]

@@Rooflemonger ive listened to them my only real gripe of him(char wise not gameplay) is he does not say anything in spanish at all also i forgot to mention but vega actually is kinda good in sfv his buffs helped him alot

[@OmnipotentO]

V trigger is fine. People forget you can build v meter without getting hit too. so it's half comeback, and half just another tool. Not convinced claw is the worst just that it's bad. Imo Elena healing is still the worst. Single handedly ruined USF4 though I still love that game.

[@ryoandr]

SSF4 DWU. It was the laziest way to "fix" unblockables, instead of fixing the code (unblockables did not exist in vanilla)

[@MrCleks]

Just give him a somewhat exposed special to re-equip another claw once broken would solve most of the issues tbh.

[@Keezawea]

i dont know too much about fighting game mechanics, what was the problem with V-Triggers?

[@Rooflemonger]

It was meant to solve the "comeback mechanic" problem of ultras in SF4, except it wound up being 10 times worse. Now later in the games life its been tamed to a decent extent, but like season 2 it was rough. If you had full health, up against laura or balrog with 1 health but full trigger, it was basically an even match back in the day.

[@CrossfacePanda]

At its core, it’s an Install Super tied to a comeback mechanic. And the thing is, Install Supers are cool! Everybody loved Installs before SFV. The problem is that when they’re tied to a comeback mechanic that triggers multiple times every match, it now basically becomes a waiting game of ”who will get their Install first”. It also felt like rather than add more stuff to your character in V-Trigger to make you feel extra powerful (like a cool Install should), they instead made the characters feel tepid when not in V-Trigger. Contrast this with another modern game in Soul Calibur 6, where characters feel powerful all the time, but its universal Install mechanic (Soul Charge) makes you feel EXTRA powerful on top of that (though that game also has a problem of sorta, but not exclusively, making it a comeback mechanic).

[@leonardocr506]

@@Rooflemonger what was the problem with ultras ?

[@feri7mble]

@@leonardocr506 The fact that you get rewarded with a massively damaging invincible reversal just for losing the round.

[@prof.laytonfan764]

They did so much damage in vanilla Sf4. They still do a lot of damage but yeah you could easily melt an opponents life bar with an Ultra. Later versions of sf4 made them a little more reasonable.

[@justsignmeup911]

Character centers shifting during crossups in SF4.