The wrongness of low profile tyres

[@davidpereira9238]

Another problem is tyre manufacturers are dropping smaller wheels (17"!) from high performance portfolios. Not only are you stuck with poor equipment, now you're stuck with inferior tyres. Lots of good points, great video

[@peterstaggs1956]

Excellent article Robert. For our Prado I have removed the 18’s and put them aside to we sell vehicle and run 17’s with 65 profile rubber. The 17’s are lighter, easier to replace in outback travel and cheaper. Exactly as you described. Cheers

[@L2SFBC]

Thanks Peter, please share 🙏

[@froggy0162]

Low profile on a tall top heavy and heavy 4WD is a recipe for rollovers. Doesn’t take much in a high speed swerving for the low profile sidewall to be torn off the rim. Once the rim itself bites into the tarmac it’s all over and you’re screwed.

[@thisoldjeepcj5]

Agreed, it's for looks.

[@davidpereira9238]

Yes, but looks are subjective. I think big wheels makes cars look like a horse carriage, so just silly.

[@SamuelHeinen]

Excellent topic to cover and its explained very well. I don't want to nitpick, but I want to draw attention on the following: Near the end you said that you could do tires with a bigger outer diameter on your car, which I can't agree 100%. Yes technically as long you can fit a tire as big as it fits on your car, BUT CONSIDER your speedometer is calibrated depending on the circumference of your tires, which can depending on where you live, render your vehicle illegal by state/Federal law. You should always check your car documents about the sizes you can fit particular vehicle. If your State or Country allows such modification you should think about recalibrating your speedometer.

[@NasTimeAdventures]

Great summary. A lot of utes come out with 18" wheels now which make it look good on road but not the best for offroad.

[@ronladuke7235]

I have been complaining about this for years now and it keeps getting worse. Most vehicles now if you want to get a tall profile tire you are forced to get the base model? The manufacturers put them on because that’s what people ( think they want) ( rolling on 20s) This is marketing and driven by ignorance!

[@L2SFBC]

Agreed, low profile tyres are seen as "better". However, that can play to your advantage whne buying a new car and doing something weird like swapping out the premium, cool, sexy low profiles for boring high-profiles!

[@mrgeorgeleach7498]

If you don't like the figment... change it... stop whining like a bab

[@MntlMajorkozmo]

My favourite thing about your videos that are doing comparisons, you find a very simple way of demonstrating the difference. In this video it was the block of wood that visually showed the height difference of the sidewall. Instead of using the measurements (im guilty of switching off when people start using multiple numbers in comparisons) you showed it. Ive worked a few tire shops, and when a 55 or lower was on the job card i was dreading life. And that was with specialist equipment. I always considered 55 or lower as low profile. Im also a little old school, aluminium or alloy wheels can be made in some nice designs, but i just cant handle the thought of using one on my 4by. Can easily hammer and weld a steel wheel in the bush. Pretty sure im always going to have a 16 inch steelie with a 65+ tire. One day i will get a race car and can have forged aluminium wheels with 50 profile tires. That day is tomorrow, and tomorrow never comes.

[@L2SFBC]

Thanks, yes I'd hate to work a low-profile in the bush. Ugh. I do try and bring things out...coming are videos on unsprung weight and brakes, I have ideas there too...

[@MntlMajorkozmo]

@@L2SFBC looking forward to it

[@nealesmith1873]

Great information! Low profile is not good, they don't even look good on a 4x4.

[@Natamorn]

Great information. Very useful. Thank you.

[@LyleBialk]

Thank you, very informative. Well done.

[@OnCountryWithMick]

Came back from a bush walk yesterday and there was a jacked up Ranger with all the bells & whistles but low profile Mud tyres. First thought was the owner is a Show Pony City Boy that would never take their rig off road, its all about the looks. Ive seen a Hilux get stuck and swallowed by the ocean for this exact reason as well, Low profiles could not be aired down on the beach to give them the traction they needed.

[@L2SFBC]

Low profile mud tyres on a Ranger are like white socks and sandals. Just NO. I hope you got his rego so the police can follow up this crime against humanity. However. Low profiles air down as nicely as high profiles, and on sand rim damage is less of a problem than forests/rocks/ruts etc. I'm no fan of low profiles, but they can work on sand.

[@OnCountryWithMick]

@@L2SFBC anything on a Ranger except a recovery strap is just a NO lmfao. I always bag them put because to this day they are still my number 1 most recovered vehicle. This Hilux on the beach had rubber bands not just low profiles. There looked to be as low profile and big wheels as he could get

[@sailingcitrinesunset4065]

Big rims and low profile tyres are known as "Mall Trawlers"

[@nicktulett4219]

Spot on ! and thanks for this article. We have ordered (as in a long wait) a new Isuzu Mux Ls-T, it only comes with 20 inch rims. The Ls-U model comes with 18 inch and the Ls-M has 17 inch rims. WHY? What are they thinking? I asked if I could get the 17 inch rims as on the Ls-M model and was told no !. If they're ok for the M they should be ok for the T, but it's too hard apparently. So, I'll get 17 inch rims before replacing the 20 inch tyres. I didn't realise the price difference between 17 and 20 inch tyres was that much. It would lessen the cost of the 17 inch rims.

[@L2SFBC]

It's because 20s are seen as the premium, better option. Dealers don't understand that. Yes, the 17 tyres will be a lot cheaper. Find a Ls-M owner who wants 20s :-)

[@Mike_Costello]

My '87 300e W124 Merc has 205/65 15 Yokohama's and it is the softest or smoothest riding car I've ever owned. A large part of that is the relatively high sidewall profile. It definitely isn't a track car but is a extremely comfortable highway cruiser. It's 5 point multi link rear suspension makes the entire package very predictable and manageable. If I do push it around it takes it all and behaves remarkably well. It's not 'sharp' obviously, but corner loading it early and accounting for it's setup makes it very rewarding for the type of mid size E-class Merc it is. Many will spec these with larger wheels and lower profiles but all will tell you the supple ride quality drops noticeably. I wonder if the latest iterations of large wheels with painted on tyre rubber is more to do with compensating for lower cost suspension design at the manufacturing end. It makes the car 'feel' better and perform better at the expense of the owners cost for expensive new tyres and or damaged wheels.

[@L2SFBC]

I think it's all looks. Low profile = sporty, also LOOK AT MY SEXY BIG BRAKE CALIPERS because SPORTY. Fun fact, F1 cars got slower when they moved from 13 to 18" rims but the losses were compensated for elsewhere.

[@jerrymyahzcat]

Love my Yokohamas.

[@jerrymyahzcat]

My 4WD came with optional 19” rims (I bought it second hand so didn’t choose them - I probably would have chosen 18”); the factory choices were 17”, 18”, 19” or 20” all with the same brakes too. I do love the 19” as the handling is great. But I like to do some off-roading and they aren’t ideal for that. The 17” would have been the best choice here. Also due to my rim size the only ATs I can get are Yokohama G015 Geolandars (brilliant tyres) in 235/55 R19. And there are no MTs available at all as far as I can tell (not that I want MTs). Also can’t get LT tyres either. To be honest the Yokohamas are quieter than the HTs it had and they are good enough for the off-roading I do (I don’t do crazy stuff).

[@kathyl67]

Excellent video!

[@stephenfiore9960]

1x(11/4/22)….4:30….done thank you excellent

[@nirajvashi9471]

Thank you very much for this informative and enlightening video. I am from India and planning to buy a Volvo S90 sedan. Indian roads have high speed breakers and accordingly require higher ground clearance. Stock tyres on the S90 are 245/45R18 with a ground clearance of 152mm. Possible upgrades approved by Volvo are 255/40R19, 255/35R20 and 245/35R21. Upgrades to 19s and 20s are not giving sufficient additional ground clearance ( only about 4mm ) however the 21s - 245/35R21 gives additional ground clearance of 13mm taking overall GC to 165mm. Pirelli Pzero PZ4 or Continental Ecocontact 6 are offered by Volvo in this size. However, I am being told that 245/35R21 is not a suitable size on Indian roads which have potholes and will soon lead to Alloy Rim damage. . However, in your video you have suggested that low profile tyres can do even offlroading. While I do not want to do offroading, I would want the 21s for additional ground clearance and if as per your opinion,if low profile tyres can do offroading, can't they manage occassional potholes without Rim Damage? Also, can Rim Protectors like Alloygators help solve the problem? Please advise. Thank you .

[@L2SFBC]

I wouldn't run 245/35/21, I agree with damage. I would look at 245/55/18 or some other size like that, maybe 255/50/18 or whatever you can get on 18s. I said you *can* offroad with low profiles, not that you *should* if you have a choice!

[@nirajvashi9471]

@@L2SFBC Thank you very much for your kind response. Volvo doesn't recommend the alternative sizes you have mentioned. I understand that overall diameter and height may not be affected. Would you advise going for those alternative sizes not recommended by Volvo ? Would that not have any effect on the suspension? If not then, if 21s is the only choice, which of the two Perili Pzero PZ4 or Continental Ecocontact 6 would be your choice? I reiterate that I do not want to do offroading but I wonder if one can do offroading with low profile, cant one manage potholes on the regular roads? Thank you once again.

[@L2SFBC]

Don't run 21s. Volvo cannot advise you to use anything other than stock sizes. I don't know the laws in India, but I would expect a diameter increase of maybe 10-20mm would be fine for the car and also legal. Run 18s, they'll be the best for you. Not familiar with those tyres. Potholes are the worst as you're at speed; offroading you are often very slow so rim damage is less of a problem.

[@nirajvashi9471]

@@L2SFBC Ok. Thank you for your kind advice. Just a small further request. As mentioned in my first comment, could you please share your experience on Rim Protectors such as Alloygators ? Can they help protect the Rims ? Thank you.

[@L2SFBC]

No experience sorry

[@nikkodogz]

I have 265/35/22 , 22 inch rims. and The NYC pot holes hate my car. lol,, especially after it snows. The salt and the truck plows scrape up the asphalt patch up and leave the 100 year old pot hole. WAABAMM (batman style) I hit the pot hole at night. Long story short, I found out AAA doesnt assist you on highways. The private tow were going to charge me $180 just to tow to next exit which was the next one like 2 mins away and not change the spare. So i limp there AAA came gave $20. And bought a new tire/ cost me $180. will change it for $10. But I love my Low Profile Rims/tires. lmao...

[@drivewayy]

No AAA on highways? Hopefully that's limited to your state? Golly that just doesn't seem right.

[@rob_4x4]

Again highlights the problem that 4x4s are sold these days with tyres and rims suitable for a mall crawler but unsuitable for use as a 4x4 that is used as a 4x4. . It would be nice to at least be able to order appropriate sized rims and tyres from the factory when you order a new 4x4, like you can with the Ineos Grenadier to avoid the extra cost of replace them after market.

[@philiparmbruster2396]

One of the reasons for low profile tyres on large rims on Land Rovers is that they have fitted larger diameter brakes that will not fit with smaller rims, presumably so that they can brake from 240Kmh or so on a German Autobahn. There are specialty rim makers who make 18 inch rims for later Discoveries, but these have to be specially designed to clear brake calipers. I think this is also true of German makes such as Audi, Porsche, and VW.(same same anyway) Yet Toyota manages to fit brakes that allow 17inch rims to lower spec models. Just another reason that European 4x4s are in general less desirable in Australia.

[@L2SFBC]

Thanks Philip. I think the larger wheel/brake is more a style thing that function. I've written about options for Land Rovers here - TufffAnts are the go. l2sfbc.com/you-can-now-run-18-wheels-on-your-l663-defender-d300-and-p400/

[@MiniLuv-1984]

I was in an Outback with 55's doing some gravel tracks and had to replace a tyre that blew out. In the same location I came across a Monaro running 45's with all 4 tyres blown out. This was many years ago, but it was a great lesson in profiles and offroad. These days I run 65's on the 17" wheels on my forester. The 4x4 has 75's on 16" and my wife's liberty runs 17 x 55's and is definitely and obviously sharper than the forester. Horses for courses - the forester is used for tracks now and then, the liberty is forbidden to do such tracks! (I'm the sucker that has to replace the blown tyre). Another topic if interest to me is how much over manufacturers recommended tyre profiles can you go? For example, the forester is placarded with 225/55R17 - is it legal/insurance to put 225/75R17 (assuming they clear guards/struts etc.)? Where can one find out this info in understandable format? Finally I understand these kinds of legal restrictions on modifications are different state to state. (WTF??), and I believe that the rules of the state of registration apply in other states otherwise you can't travel legally beyond state borders when such minor mods contravene their rules. Is this a fair conclusion? This would apply to all sorts of mods too, like light bar mounting, lifts etc. These are more legal rather than engineering questions, so I guess such questions should be aimed at road laws legal eagle?

[@L2SFBC]

There's no legal limit on profile changes. But your minimum rim size will be dictated by the brake calipers or similar. The legal limit is the width, offset, diameter etc. See my video on offsets for more.

[@jerrymyahzcat]

Also whatever rims and tyres you fit must not rub or protrude beyond the wheel arch and they must also yield the correct speed on your speedometer (a recalibration is sometimes needed).

[@1982mmag]

excellent article, for a jeep WK2 Grand Cherokee on stock 265/50 R20 kumho road tires , can the tires survive a 20 psi air down for sand , for a casual beach, sand dune etc?

[@L2SFBC]

I would expect so yes

[@351tgv]

My current car (ZG Escape ST-Line AWD ) has from factory 19x8 alloys with P235/45 tyres (Continental Sport Contact 5), very good on-road dry and wet performance overall, the major downside is unsprung weight and the speedometer calibration over-reports by 5km/h (i.e.: at 100km/h speedometer the real road speed verified by a very accurate GPS receiver is 95lm/h). On the speed calibration issue, sure it's great in terms of not getting speeding fines when travelling past fixed point cameras or mobile speed cameras (provided you are well aware of where those idiots are located) since I know that at indicated speedometer speed the vehicle is actually travelling 5km/h less, however the downside is gearing which in turn hurts fuel consumption, example: instead of being in 6th gear the transmission will keep on dropping back to 5th gear, there are two options: 1: put the transmission into sport mode and use the paddle shifters to lock 6th gear which in turn causes the engine to labour (which is not good for the engine or transmission) or 2: up the speed by 5lm/h on the speedometer (to the real road speed) and run the risk of actually going over sped limits which has its own issues. Unspurng weight is not so much an issue as the vehicle was designed with a range of rim sizes in mind ranging from 17x7.5 to 18x 7.5 and 19x8 so the suspension can cope that said I have noticed better fuel consumption from other owners with similar vehicle with smaller rims by around 1.5L to 2L overall covering the same distance., sure that is within range but if you do a lot of extended highway driving and with 98 ROn only going up and up and up in price it adds up in the in the wrong way money wise, it would be actually cheaper in the long run to get some 17x7.5 rims and fit P235/55 tyres that said if I plan to keep the vehicle for more then 5 years. As always Rob good quality work.

[@L2SFBC]

Thanks TGV, great post!

[@jerrymyahzcat]

Almost all vehicles have about a 5% in accuracy in Speedo reading vs reality. There is legislation which dictates how much tolerance is allowed but it’s common for 105km/h on Speedo to be 100km/h in reality. This it’s why it’s annoying being stuck behind people doing 100 (on the Speedo) as they are typically only going 95 or 96km/h. Being a 5% error it gets more inaccurate the faster you go (110-130km/h) and is more accurate at slow speeds (20-30km/h). I cruise (cruise control only operates in 2km/h increments and even numbers) at 106 on my Speedo as it’s 100-101km/h in reality. I can’t set it to 105. 104 ends up being 98-99km/h. Likewise in 110 zones I use 116 or 118 on the cruise (118 is about 111-112km/h in real life).

[@steved3702]

The other possible option if you want the best of both worlds is to have two sets of wheels - low-profile for day-to-day and high profile for that occasional adventure. Just the issue of swapping over before heading out. Anyone do this?

[@L2SFBC]

Could be done but fewer and fewer people run two sets of tyres as modern tyres and cars are very capable. Best just buy a sports car and 4x4 like I did 👌

[@steved3702]

@@L2SFBC Ah, yes. The fleet. 😃

[@maxgood42]

My father ruined a set of tyres going to work in the 90’s , He worked around the corner so he just went around the block each day The right side was chewed out and left ended up scolloped. As it was his budget 4WD then I would agree that having a cheap set of road tyres for Daly driving and save the mud grippers for the weekend is probably the best option.

[@drtmi8789]

Sidewalls are what make tires work offroad.

[@L2SFBC]

Fair point 👍

[@GF-mf7ml]

Low profile tires are overrated. Most people don't turn fast like race car.

[@rjl110919581]

What about weight carry cross road if heavy vehicles as tyres different types used on vehicle by laws

[@L2SFBC]

Sorry don't quite understand the question?

[@Malc664]

@@L2SFBC I think the question above is load capacity of tyres. That would be a whole different video. Weights tyres can carry.

[@L2SFBC]

Ah right...yes, a new video. However, low profiles cannot carry the weight of high profiles, noted this in the video. Your load rating on the tyres must equal or exceed that of the vehicle.

[@Malc664]

@@L2SFBC Yes, you're a very knowledgable person Rob. It's very interesting to watch your videos and learn.

[@sailingcitrinesunset4065]

Big heavy tyre's and rim add to your KERB/ tare weight and need to be included as payload

[@off-roadingexplained8417]

As a general rule would you say that if you look at the load inflation tables and you determine that the load capacity of all of your tires is less than the weight of your vehicle that you shouldn't air down that low? For example if I determine with a 265 65 17 that 29 PSI carries 2000 lb.... Therefore 15 PSI would carry about a thousand pounds... If I have a 4,000 lb car I would think that I would probably never want to go below 15 psi especially without beadlocks. And if this is an LT tire, supporting 1x vehicle weight will be a higher pressure. I have a question you might know the answer to. I don't know the answer because I don't have the tires to do the experiment. If two tires of the same size are both inflated to support the same weight whether they are LT or metric or p metric, Will they have the same squish? So should I expect the same contact patch with an LT tire at 25 PSI as I would a non-healthy tire at 18 PSI or so? I don't know the answer to that, But I'd love to know the answer.

[@L2SFBC]

The relationship between pressure and weight is not linear. You can't say well 30si = 4000lb therefore 15psi = 2000lb. There is no minimum pressure, just you need to drive slower as the speed drops to avoid heat buildup. LT or P construction actually deform fairly similary except for the extreme tyres and also when the last few PSI are concerned.

[@jerrymyahzcat]

A tyre can only carry its maximum load as its maximum pressure. So if you are at max weight you technically shouldn’t air down at all as the load carrying capability of the tyre will be exceeded. However as Robert said, if you reduce speed (possibly a lot) and are careful and watch the heat buildup you can get away with it for short stints. But it’s madness to be at GVM or GVM and air down to 50% of the placard - you are just asking for a failure. Also as ASPW says (correctly) low profile tyres are better off-road at higher pressures as if you drop the pressure you gain minimal extra footprint and are much more likely to puncture the tyre or roll it off the rim.

[@off-roadingexplained8417]

@@jerrymyahzcat yep. For the same section width , tread width is typically wider for lower series.

[@wallacegrommet9343]

Low profile tires hydroplane more easily due to the wider tread patch being perpendicular to the direction of travel

[@nowrabase]

Thanks

[@L2SFBC]

You're welcome, please share!

[@Devin_Stromgren]

I would argue 17" is still 2" too large of a rim.

[@RB26N]

I don't think low profile tyres are better for track race cars either , super fast open wheel race cars like F1 , indycar with very high LAT G and high aero load do just fine with 13 and 15 inch wheels. Mercedes F1 engineer said 13 inch wheels is better for performance compared to 2022 18 inch wheels. to add more to that f1 themselves made tyre sidewall bigger with 18 inch wheels to get some of that lost tyre side wall back , now overall tyre diameter is increased.

[@L2SFBC]

Agreed - the weight is the big problem. However, low-profiles do have advantages for racing.

[@servicetrucker5564]

If the tire has a metric size it’s considered low profile at least in the US

[@L2SFBC]

Really? Whys that?

[@servicetrucker5564]

@@L2SFBC Just a naming convention over here. Like a truck tire 10.00x20 is a tall tire and a 10r22.5 is the same size but tubeless radial. A 295/75r22.5 is a pretty tall tire as well but they call it low profile

[@zrbsrbija]

Not true not at all ..

[@servicetrucker5564]

@@zrbsrbija How not? If you go in a tire shop with that tire they’ll call it low pro twenty two five

[@philhealey449]

@@L2SFBCGreat instructive video as ever, evidencing the fashion for untrailworthy 4x4 tyres. I ran low profile (!) 395 /85 R20 on my last Unimog, but came to my senses and I'm trying full profile 14 R 20 now ! Seriously though, 395 /85 Michelin XZL are great. Off topic now, my old Defender 110 had 7.5 x 16 radials and I was quite happy with its road handling deploying a lowly 107 bhp, getting over 60,000 miles from the set of Avon Rangemasters that came part worn when I bought it. I did briefly put on some ancient same-size crossply tyres ( borrowed off my Series One) for some reason I've now forgotten, but I certainly do remember the terrible handling on crossplies, with a sense of detachment from the road when steering, which wasn't obvious in the Series One. Needless to say I did fit radials later to the Series One, mainly noticing easier steering, but handling being an academic concept with 60 bhp on tap.

[@Chemist1076]

Forget to include weight of tire in overall wheel weight, not only the rims

[@L2SFBC]

no, it's there eg 18.1 tyres, 11.6 wheel, total 30, x 5 = 150kg

[@andrewahern3730]

Rubber and air weigh far less than metal

[@maxgood42]

Who’s putting low profile tyres on 4wd’s…? Stop it, Get some help…. 🤣

[@L2SFBC]

Some people have no choice...

[@maxgood42]

@@L2SFBC yeah I know, I just couldn’t help myself there ha ha but this also reminds me of another problem you could shed some light on, Putting oversized tyres on, the size’s are getting bigger and bigger I remember when going from cheese cutters to 31’s made a big difference now people are getting 35’s 37’s and it’s obvious when seeing many 4WD fail video’s especially Jeeps in Moab popping out their front pinions. Some advice I was given back in the 80’s “The more modified the 4WD, the deeper you get stuck! “ Also the ‘Tread Lightly’ campaign must be loosing their minds …..

[@chrisrees7054]

DON'T DO IT!