Thebes - History of the City in Bronze Age (3200-1100 BC)

[@odysseus5607]

Another great video! The art style keeps getting better! So glad you included Ogyges, his is one of the most mysterious stories in mythology!

[@WanaxTV]

Thanks Odysseus! Was thinking of doing complete mythology of Thebes, from Ogyges to Trojan war. We will see.

[@odysseus5607]

@@WanaxTV Can't wait!

[@panagiotis7946]

@@WanaxTV the most mysterious and wonderful first Greek race with amazing works were the MYNIES make a video about it

[@richardarcher7177]

Great potted history of Thebes. Interesting to note that the mainland Greeks of the bronze age seem to have developed their own cities and palaces around the same time as the Minoans although they never reached the same levels of urban sophistication. It is interesting to note the prevalence of warfare amongst them (no surprise there) but it does put the attested Cretan arms industry of the day in a new light. While I doubt the Minoans were the pacifists that some scholarship claims it does raise the question of their armaments and if they were manufactured for the Mycenean arms market.

[@diktatoralexander88]

I agree the Minoans most likely weren't pacifists, a civilization as prosperous as they were would *have* to have a good warrior culture to protect it, as there would've been much interest from outsiders to invade. As to whether they were highly militaristic we don't know. But to quickly refute those who claim "there's no depictions of war", lack of depictions of war in artwork is not always evidence they weren't. It could simply mean that being highly religious, all art depictions were of spiritual nature and not of a documentation matter.

[@grigoriskossyvakis2453]

Αγαπητοί συνάδελφοι Ιστορικοί κάνετε ένα τεράστιο λάθος στις εκτιμήσεις σας. Αγνοείτε τούς Μινύες τού Ορχομενού στους οποίους οι Θήβες ήσαν φόρου υποτελείς μέχρι τα μέσα του 13 ου αιώνα π.Χ. όταν τούς οδήγησε σε νίκη ο Ηρακλής τής Αλκμήνης. Η κυρίαρχη πόλη στην Ελλάδα από το 3.000 π.Χ. μέχρι τότε ήταν ο Ορχομενός.

[@apollo6753]

Good Video. I enjoy learning about the origin stories of settlements/cities in ancient Greece, especially when they go back as far as the stone age's.

[@kimberlyperrotis8962]

Wonderful, I’ve never learned much detail about Thebes, until now! While very important, Athens, which most content focuses on, was not the only amazing and influential Polis in the Greek World.

[@WanaxTV]

True! Glad you enjoyed it!

[@panagiotis7946]

@@WanaxTV Phoenician is a writing system. Phoenician and cuneiform are writing systems like exactly the linear scripts I II in Greece It does NOT count as an ALPHABET in the classic scientific sense of the term because it has an incomplete structure. it does not separate letter-phoneme but syllables

[@TheVinceLyons]

Do you have a video or can you do a video on Epaminondas?

[@petrapetrakoliou8979]

Nice presentation, thank you! would be good to see also the remains of that palace in Thebes, recently dug up.

[@petertodorov1792]

Thebes must have been a poweful rival to the Pelloponesians that they would have sent two expeditions against her

[@IblameBlame]

Great video again!

[@Rithymna]

Just finished watching the video, excellent presentation as always!

[@lydiephonebox5715]

I love Wanax TV!

[@Mr.56Goldtop]

A nice video full of information. I just wish we had a greater understanding of those times in history. But being that it was so long ago I guess we are fortunate to have what we have.

[@WissHH-]

Amazing content!

[@WanaxTV]

Appreciate it!

[@panagiotis7946]

@@WanaxTV Cadmus was the son of Agenor, king of Argos who founded Phoenicia so it is in Greek mythology

[@joeshmoe8345]

Great, thanks for sharing with us FANAX

[@WanaxTV]

🫡

[@pgsa1190]

i just subbed to your channel. i love your videos , im gonna watch them all. weird that there are so little subs. something to do with youtubes algorithm? another channel which had good videos had that problem and quited. your videos are relaxing to watch aswell. thx for them

[@MaryVanLieshout]

Thank you!

[@matusbarbuscak3347]

Great video, I would welcome some photos from actual excavations in the locality, that would put it on a level higher. Keep making great contend.

[@mattmatty4670]

Cool thanks mate

[@zurgesmiecal]

another masterpiece

[@WanaxTV]

Thank you! Really appreciate it. 🙏

[@xedaslopes3975]

👍👍 GREAT ONE

[@taybak8446]

Very interesting info. Please tell me if I can visit Thebes' Mycenean era palace and citadel? I will visit Greece this year and want to see Bronze Age sites including Mycenae, Pylos, Dendra, Thebes. Thank you.

[@WanaxTV]

Yes! You can take a tour of the Cadmean citadel and visit Thebes museum. A portion of it is the Mycenaean palace.

[@taybak8446]

@@WanaxTV thanks for the info. I've been fascinated my Mycenaean history since I was 12. Perhaps we can meet when I visit Greece.

[@IblameBlame]

​@@taybak8446I don't think he lives there.

[@GeorgeMoulos]

What is the Egyptian inscription you referred to at 12;46?

[@landesL]

second the question

[@mercianthane2503]

Cadmus is certainly quite an old figure, perhaps a local thebian deity, and the writing system that he supposedely brought to Greece is Linear B. I'm glad that Thebes managed to survive the collapse, I wonder what could be the reasons for that.

[@WanaxTV]

It is likely that whoever destroyed Thebes did not have an ability to conquer & govern, but rather destroyed it on their way to somewhere else. Thebes survived because while the citadel was destroyed, not all inhabitants (especially around Thebes) were completely annihilated, apparently. The city continued to be somewhat inhabited allowing it to be slowly rebuilt.

[@mercianthane2503]

@@WanaxTV Perhaps its location could also be another reason of why Thebes was rebuild? Comparing it to Mycenae, Thebes is basically in a good position.

[@hamm0155]

Any thoughts on the letter found at Thebes that may imply at some point the theban king was the king of ahhiyawa?

[@WanaxTV]

It’s not impossible, although I doubt that king of Thebes ever had power over major Peloponnesian citadels or Crete. Mycenae and Pylos for example were both significantly bigger than Thebes, with Mycenae and Tiryns both being heavily fortified & held control over Isthmus of Corinth. It is unknown whether Thebes was actually independent from Peloponnese. If not, then references to “Wanax” in Thebes may had been references to Wanax of Mycenae who was above any local king. Another possibility is that any ruler of a major palace center would’ve been called a “King of Ahhiyawa” simply because he was a king from the country of “Ahhiyawa” in a geographical sense. Just a few theories to think about.

[@hamm0155]

@@WanaxTV yeah thanks!

[@kaloarepo288]

Of course Thebes was the capital of Egypt too - interesting to investigate why both places have the same name!

[@Seventh7Art]

The answer is simple. Thebes in Egypt was named by the ancient Greeks. The Egyptians did not call it Thebes.

[@kaloarepo288]

Yes the Egyptian name was something like Taba which meant "The sanctuary" and the Greek visitors thought this sounded a bit like the name of a Greek city they were familiar with though there are many Greek myths and legends that associate the foundations of Greek cities with Egyptian visitors like Cadmus and others. Zeus is supposed to have kidnapped Io and somehow she was associated with the Egyptian goddess Isis.Argos is supposed to have very strong Egyptian connections.@@Seventh7Art

[@SirBedevereTheWise]

​@@Seventh7Art kinda like asking why there was 5 ancient cities called Alexandria 😂 but I guess I see what he actually means though (I think what he means): like why the Greeks renamed it Thebes... (My opinion is maybe it has similarities or settled by Greeks from Greek Thebes or maybe religious ties 🤷🏼‍♂️)

[@Seventh7Art]

Wanax, are you Greek yourself?

[@WanaxTV]

Tiny bit of ancestry.

[@Manouil_III]

11:21 *Tanagra

[@WanaxTV]

Thanks for the correction. ☑️

[@IblameBlame]

I read somewhere that Tanagran colonists in southern Italy or their descendants called themselves "Graioi" and were among the first Greeks to enter into contact with the Romans,who called them "Graeci".​@@WanaxTV

[@Massimo2.0-zj1qy]

Is it possible that the Dorians destroyed many memories from the myceanean past with a damnatio memoriae? I think that would explain why linear B is never mentioned in greek mythology.

[@WanaxTV]

Good question. I’m doubtful they did. Dorians themselves preserved many Mycenaean traditions and were loosely related to the Achaeans. The emergence of Dorians as ruling class in Peloponnese is very vague when it comes to comes to history. Spartan king Cleomenes I famously said “I am no Dorian, but an Achaean”.

[@Massimo2.0-zj1qy]

@@WanaxTV then why did the greeks seem to have basically been magically brain-washed into having no idea there was a forogotten script before the greek characters, yet the memory of other bronze age stories remained?

[@WanaxTV]

@@Massimo2.0-zj1qy Probably due to lack of scribes and very low percentages of literacy in general during Mycenaean Greece. Chances are that ordinary population even during the Mycenaean times had very low knowledge of Linear B, instead having strong oral tradition. Similar things happened in some other cultures in different time periods, where only a tiny amount of people in the administration knew how to write and kept records just for accounting and few inscribed laws. When the state was conquered, nobody was literate. However, to add to your question, Spartans did report to finding “ancient bronze tablets” in Boeotia, but they had no idea which language was inscribed on it and they couldn’t read it. They called those letters “ancient” and “barbarian”. Spartan king then sent them to Egypt to be deciphered, apparently with no success. They more than likely encountered Linear B, but had no idea what it was.

[@Massimo2.0-zj1qy]

@@WanaxTV maybe the only people to survive the collapse in Greece were the ones who did not know about linear B?

[@Massimo2.0-zj1qy]

@@WanaxTV In my humble ignorance, I don't think the dorians preserved Mycenaean traditions. Could they be the ones responsible for the sudden change of greek artstyle and armor during the archaic period? Also, why did all of Greece during the dark ages simultaneously decide that wearing boar tusked helmets and having long hair was no longer trendy?

[@Linduine]

Wanax, what do you think about the theory that the ''Phoenician'' part of Cadmus actually derives from the tradition of writing Linear B script on palm leaves? So a mistranslation

[@thorgunderson-theswede86]

Again this guy. Not kowing the difference between greeks and the Pelasgians. Just mind-blowing

[@jarlnils435]

Ancient theban child: Grandfather, how was our town founded? Grandfather: (Shit, I don't know! Think, quick!) Listen child. There was Cadmos of phoenicia and he founded it.

[@IblameBlame]

It's interesting how Europa also came from Phoenicia, we did the iron Age alphabet.

[@klausbrinck2137]

You could have further made the connection of Kadmos, to his abducted sister, Europe, and that he gave up the search, founding Kadmea, according tho the advice of the Oracle of Delphi... After all, claiming his sister back from Zeus was senseless, and his father has promised to kill him, if he returns to Phoenicia without his sister.

[@WanaxTV]

Good point. The main focus of was just the Mycenaean historical record and archaeology. I do plan to make a separate video (or series) on Theban mythology. It is very rich!

[@klausbrinck2137]

@@WanaxTVOK, then in future, I won´t spoiler... If you understand german, watch Michael Köhlmeier´s "Sagen der Antike", he´s a great narrator. 80 episodes á 12-13 minutes.

[@cosmomusa]

Recent research shows the origin of Indo-European name Kadmos to be from Caria, top hills and mountains in that area have the name Kadmos. The Greeks called the area from Rhodes to Caria and further Levand, the myth connects movements in the Aegean with the divine origin of Cadmus, after all we know with certen archeological resources there is a connection between the Aegean and the Levant from Neolithic period, when sailors from aegean islands travel to Cyprus and to the Levand, we know also the connection between Cyprus and the southern coasts of Asia Minor.

[@Bachan2]

I was watching a video and thought to myself: why did every large Mycenaean city build cyclopean walls when they didn't wage war against each other or some external enemy? In the 13th minute you have a map with like 7 cities that are huge palatial centers with walls but they didn't fight each other. When the Dorians and the Sea peoples came it was too late and the walls didn't help at all. The war with the Hittites was far away from the Greek mainland and the war with Crete was an offensive, not defensive war. I'd like to continue the discussion!

[@ecurewitz]

So, a lot of Bronze Age Thebes remains?

[@WanaxTV]

There are still remains of the major Mycenaean era buildings within the citadel, several cemeteries including a large chamber tomb (in the nearby hill), remains of wealthy residences and several workshops. Location of all of the 7 gates is unknown. A lot of Classical era buildings were built over Bronze Age remnants, so they can’t be really fully excavated.

[@ecurewitz]

@@WanaxTV thank you

[@LuciusQuinctiusCincinnatus111]

👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

[@Μάικ-ν5φ]

If you dont know that you are doing a uniquely fantastic job somebody must tell you so.

[@katerinapatiniotis5598]

Greece has its own alphabet and the Greek language is proven by archeological evidence to be the oldest in the history of mankind. The Phoenician alphabet used in ancient Greece is a hoax. The evidence of the earliest Greek language is the Dispilio tablet, a wooden tablet bearing inscribed of early Greek letters unearthed during George Hourmouziadis's excavations of Dispilio in Greece, and carbon 14-dated to 5202BC. It was discovered in 1993 in a Neolithic lakeshore settlement that occupied an artificial island, near the modern village of Dispilio on Lake Kastoria in Kastoria, Western Macedonia, Greece. This proves that the Greek language is older than the dead Phoenician and Mesopotamian languages such as the Sumerian. Phoenician language had nothing to do with the Greek language.

[@Caligulashorse1453]

So according to linguistics we can see the change within the Phoenician alphabet to the Greek alphabet, so Phoenicians, went and colonized a large portion of the mediterranean from Espana to Carthage even parts of Greece. the other thing I would like to point out is carbon dating and specifically carbon 14, carbon dating is already a hot topic within the archaeological community there’s lots of evidence to show that many times it doesn’t work that’s not to say it can’t be used at all, but it Has to be used in very specific situations even the guy who came up with it said it has some major flaws. So although it can be used, it can’t be used for everything in this case I don’t think it can be used because we can look at the linguistics of the Phoenician, as well as the Greek alphabet as well as other influencing alphabets on the Phoenician language it shows that yes Phoenician did influenced Greek. The letter A will be my example. now within the Phoenician language the letter A actually stems from the Hebrew which is really weird in my opinion specifically the letter ‘alep within Proto, Hebrew the Phoenicians, adopted that letter and much of the proto Hebrew alphabet actually influenced Phoenician alphabet the Greeks took the Phoenician letter and basically flipped it on its side creating alpha later it influenced the Romans so basically all of the Latin and acrylic, alphabet. And this isn’t just one letter this is much of the Phoenician and Greek alphabet. The fact of the matter is that the carbon dating is simply flawed, and the actual archaeological linguistic evidence points to the fact Phoenician did, in fact create the Greek alphabet. Also, I don’t know if it’s just me, but the fact Proto, Hebrew influence the Phoenicians, and basically all of the modern “Roman culture” is absolutely mind blowing to me. the people in the place in the Middle East that is geographically the worst defensive place without oil and they have been consistently persecuted throughout history for thousands of years somehow influenced basically all of the linguistic and religious understanding within eastern and western “Roman cultures” and even outside of that understanding of cultural context.

[@paulofassman5657]

The greeks had linear B, but then lost it and then a period of iliteracy folowed until they adopted phoenician Script...why even say "alphabet" does alfa or beta mean anything in Greek? No, it comes from semitic "Alif" meaning an ox (it looked like an ox head) and bayt, meaning house...than gimmel and dalit meaning camel and door, which became gama and delta...phoenician is not related to Greek, but thats not necessary when all you want is to use the phonetics (just like you could perfectly use Arabic script to write modern Greek, if you wanted to) these letters are preserved nowadays in Hebrew which was almost identical to phoenician...i dont think its a shame to adopt good ideas, and this guy and all of us are in this channel as admirers of Greek history

[@ramibakkar]

Akhia is Syrian word means (Brothers) Ancient Syrians who called the ancient Greeks (Akhia) The Hittites used the Syrian word too

[@jj-nu2ke]

If Greece was invaded by the Dorians, why did a large part of the population leave?

[@TrofonioG7]

ΕΛΛΑΣ ΕΛΛΑΣ Ή ΤΑΝ Η ΕΠΊ ΤΑΣ

[@naidetutureski9408]

I wont go further then this, your brain is totally in sweat, Greece: (OTTO THE FIRST AND THE ONLY ONE KING OF GREECE. German Bavarian: Otto Fredrich Ludwig von Bayern, 1 June 1815 AD - 26 July 1867 AD) was a first Bavarian Prince as a King who Ruled Greece from the establishment of the monarchy on 27 May 1832 AD, under the Convention of London, until he was deposed on 23 October 1862 AD. Prove me if I’m wrong.

[@katerinapatiniotis5598]

Stop the misinformation and educate yourself a bit better when you're making videos on my Country.

[@jeffreycarr1883]

What part of his presentation would you call “misinformation”? These are frankly some of the best videos concerning Mycenaean Greece ever produced.

[@ΙωάνναΜιχάλη-ο5φ]

Zeus and Io were the ancestors of Cadmos

[@katerinapatiniotis5598]

@@ΙωάνναΜιχάλη-ο5φ Thank you.

[@deesta357]

You know you and your kindred don't belong there. That was built by black Africans