Why Tzeentch is the Worst Chaos God

[@taitasutomoushimasu]

He fell for Tzeench's plot to make him think he's the worst god.

[@HVLLOW99]

Exactly! Titsnitch win again

[@JonathanNormandy]

All part of the plan

[@alPhaZero317]

You fell for tzeentch's plot to make you think Mr. Bones 40k fell for tzeentch's plot

[@davideparmeggiani6081]

Tzeench is by far my favorite God, he embodies change, that's what people don't get, his schemes only want to achieve change, if he ever achieved all his goals the Galaxy would just have another status quo and he would start creating schemes to change it again, there is no end goal, the dude just enjoys the process and he's happy as long as things stay fluid and the dynamics keep shifting, maybe the God that truly embodies Chaos

[@oddityironcog]

Change is an extremely undefined concept though. Like nurgle could be considered the god of changing you from alive to dead, it isn't concise enough to make a godly domain that makes any sense. I've only ever seen it used by tzeench players to be like "yeah i lost the game but that was my plan anyway". Also the word "chaos" in 40k refers to the primordial twisting of the warp, not just like, "random bullshit go", which i think is something people miss all the time when talking about tzeench and malice.

[@zrakonthekrakon494]

@@oddityironcog their are variants of chaos, and chaos is often adjunct to the concept of randomness or spontaneity, slight change would be a brick accumulating some dust, while drastic change would be the brick being sculpted into a phallus gargoyle and hung over a door frame to kill the next person who walks through the door. Tzeench embodies extreme change, and when enough extreme changes happen, change would entail a minor change, suddenly the brick is accumulating dust again, as long as things are entirely unpredictable, and never constant, this is what Tzeench enjoys and promotes, the fear and excitement of never knowing what to expect

[@blairsmith3199]

Hes the eternal devils advocate

[@nw42]

@@oddityironcog I think Tzeench would be the first to agree with you…

[@hoodedwizard4695]

It is a very interesting concept. Out of the four chaos gods, tzeentch is the only one with a specific plan in mind. He seems to be the most "aware" as far as chaos gods go. As for his influence, he is the God of Hope for Change. A lot of people get confused by him to be either hope or change but it's both when it comes to humanity. He is the devil on your shoulder that promises whatever you could want, just for a little favor. Nothing big..

[@nicholasgucwa2065]

I see Tzeentch as like: "They can't know what I'm doing, if I also don't know what I'm doing."

[@jurj97]

"I don't use my turn signal cuz I can't let these niggas know my next move"

[@fbussier80]

"Games with games. Plans within plans."

[@theemployer-pj4iv]

​@fbussier80 that is the tip of those sayings, it goes on for... Ever. Tzeentch is having WAY TOO MUCH FUN.

[@Brickerbrack]

Nah, I suspect Tzeentch is the only one who _always_ knows what's going on. Maybe.

[@Volnas97]

He probably likes Alpha Legion

[@torysaccount5753]

I see every Chaos God as a solution to the problem "Life sucks", brought to the extreme. Slaanesh is "Life sucks? Have the best time you can have, embrace hedonism!" The problem is, at some point you keep chasing the highs without satisfaction. Nurgle is "Life sucks? That's okay. You are okay the way you are. You don't have to change." The problem is stagnation and decay from inaction. Khonre is "Life sucks? I know, but there is a way to air out your frustration!" The problem is that this doesn't really solve anything. Tzeench is "Life sucks? You can change things, you can make it better" It the promise of improvement, however it is constant change for the sake of it with no goal. So, yeah. I think Tzeench is cool

[@khum6059]

But like, why not embrace stagnation and decay when all you need in life is grandfathers love?

[@freedomandguns3231]

Its more like embodiment of sins as Tzeentch for example also covers betrayal, Slaanesh also covers the clear excess sins, Khorne is also war and complete rage, and Grandfather Loves yo- uh, I mean is also Pestilence and whatnot

[@mightyspaceghost9778]

Tzeench isn't so much "it can be better" as it is "it can be different"

[@Samagachi]

@@khum6059 i prefer omniscience

[@khum6059]

@Samagachi have fun getting turned into a pile of bones the moment you figure out the meaning of life just because tzeentch felt like it

[@andreibaciu7518]

It's like that meme "Fun fact: 99% of Tzeentch cultists turn away from the Changer of Ways right before he's about to offer them Demon Princehood with no strings attached (and a free Prius)"

[@jamzee_]

My man you just listed a con right there. Horrible gas mileage. 50?? Wtf? A normal Honda van can get like 45 and cost like… 30 grand less.

[@anissyahromi5671]

You sold me at free prius

[@yes2268]

Knowing tzeentch the free prius is probably delivered at 300 miles per hour into your face

[@Alpha-zb8sp]

@jamzee So what if it’s a bad car. It’s free. It doesn’t replace your current car, if you really don’t like it, just sell it.

[@Oscar_Lasco]

Tzeentch playing his totally-real-ugly-ass-video-game-in-a-youtube-ad with the skill of a lobotomized squig. "Oh geez, this game is so hard I die like a chump in the first minute! I bet you''ll never spend 9,99 thrones to prove how better you are at playing this totally legit game."

[@Goblinhandler]

I find it heavily ironic that the god of change's legion is mostly a bunch of unchanging automatons, while the god of decay and stagnation's legion has a bunch of constantly changing and unstoppable jolly marines

[@KrakDuk]

I would worship Tzeench because big bird daemon is funny

[@lordofthepenguins5]

Oh hey look I know that guy

[@aliteraldude7658]

Fancy seeing you here :)

[@zeroakira584]

You worship Tzeech due to big bird daemon being funny. I worship Tzeech to get myself free fried chicken.

[@aidan-h3p]

absolutely based.

[@MountainKingUltra]

You worship tzeentch because big bird daemon funny. I worship tzeentch because PRETTY COLORS

[@ashrussell5682]

"Nobody thinks they're gonna be the one to turn into chaos spawn. I mean, I know I won't, but I'm not so sure about you." - last recorded words of an unremarkable chaos sorcerer.

[@theodorehodbor5080]

Worshiping Tzeentch makes a lot more sense when you think about it more from the perspective of a gambler, it's basically playing the lottery on whether or not one day you win the jackpot and he gives you near-perfect precognition and elevates you to champion status or you go bust and he turns you into a drooling bird-mutant, both outcomes that are likely a joke that's coming at the expense of another follower somehow.

[@andyroobrick-a-brack9355]

It also makes sense when you're diluted by a fantasy or ambition, or if you're in search of some grand truth. People will risk absolutely everything just to understand.

[@mr.ashenfire2624]

If he was written more as a Hermaeus Mora I would like him a lot more.

[@JetPantherCrispy]

Yoooo! That makes so much sense. Slaanesh being allegory for addiction is decently accepted. This fits so good thematically with that.

[@aidan-h3p]

This is a really interesting way of looking at it. Once you win something from Tzeench once, twice, three times, you inevitably become convinced of how lucky you are, even subconsciously. You begin to attribute your wins to skill, even though it really played no part. The wheel cant really be random, right? I pressed the button to stop it. I won the claw game, I pushed those pennies off the edge. Tzeench's blessings are objectively stronger than those of any other god, magic is just inherently OP and its given freely, no effort required. The possibility of losing it all just doesn't feel real until it happens. You're either too important to sacrifice or too lowly for him to take an interest in. You feel invulnerable. Others lose, others fail and suffer horribly but never you, right? You're too smart for that. You're too good, too lucky. So keep spinning that wheel, keep on dreaming. Keep tempting fate.

[@russianbot2630]

@@andyroobrick-a-brack9355Yep, take Lorgar for example. Renowned “all I ever wanted was the truth” guy, no matter where it leads. Some people’s sin isn’t as motivated by lust , wrath, or sloth, sometimes it’s the pride of wanting to know everything or the ambition that comes with that knowledge. And obviously sometimes it’s just power, or something as simple as change/“progress”, even if such progress isn’t good.

[@exmaplecore4559]

Tzeentch is best choice out of 4 for worship here’s why: - You maintain all free will and consciousness. Your personality is unaltered. Khornate warbands are jealous about this one - Have complete freedom! You are not required to do anything or obey any rules or tenets of your god, because there are none. You have complete free will, and don’t have any corruption, slaughter or seduction quotas to meet - There are no inherent trade offs for the power you receive. You don’t have to become a hate consumed, grotesquely muscular, or straight up grotesque hive of flies, to receive benefits. With Tzeentch you just gain magical power, cognitive abilities & knowledge buffs and there are not a lot of prices to it - Demonhood for Tzeentch is the best outcome one could achieve if they were to become a Demon Prince. Instead of becoming the living embodiment of corruption and/or rage, you retain all your personality and gain immense power. Complete autonomy, freedom, sense of self and power Choosing Tzeentch is choosing freedom and power

[@notladnstuff7976]

You get mutations usually in bird form.

[@strangeman9362]

Also big chance of you turning into a mindless chaos spawn just because tzeentch find it funny

[@exmaplecore4559]

@@notladnstuff7976 easy fix! You can acquire the sorcery and knowledge to change your own form quite easily as Tzeentch followers. If you don’t like your mutations or lack thereof you can change them, thus pleasing your patron god

[@exmaplecore4559]

@@strangeman9362 idk if I would describe that as big chance. Most Tzeentch followers are not chaos spawns but this does happen sometimes. Tho it’s not like the other chaos gods don’t this too

[@jaffac4ke]

Fax

[@ajackass5950]

Tzeentch is simultaneous the " ummm actually " and the " your mom" kid at school.

[@andyroobrick-a-brack9355]

Way to describe my personality

[@flygawnebardoflight]

And that is why I feel kindred to the God of Change.

[@MrKoraboras]

Ya know, Tzeentch actually IS the exact type of god who'd look at a loyal chaos sorcerer, who conquered entire worlds through schemes and creating cults and all sorts of tomfoolery; before proceeding to yoink his mother from the other end of the galaxy only to grant her Daemonhood right in front of his eyes, as the sorcerer hears the exact words you've put in quotation marks. I'm honestly convinced, that the only scheme that Tzeentch has actually concocted, is to convince the entire universe, that he's a schemer god. He's not. He's just a big fan of practical dark comedy, and he decided it'd be funnier if the butt of his joke makes up their own excuse for his shenanigans. And everyone's a butt. And that's probably also a part of his joke.

[@ivanlugo8474]

​@@MrKoraboras Thats the best take on Tzeentch i have ever heard.

[@christophebedouret9813]

Well... Actually, your mom...

[@Brandon-vb7yx]

Counterpoint: you're going to be be backstabbed, regardless of which god you choose. May as well join the god that makes you an Archmage and rewards you for being a troll

[@Devilproking]

Nurgle?

[@guroanderson108]

@@Devilprokingbro forgetting about Typhus, yes there’s a lot of backstabbing and treachery in Nurgle too. idk why people say they’re just chill all the time lol

[@Shadowoftheoldones]

You don't *choose* Tzeentch. he ensnares you when you think you are being sufficiently careful to avoid him. Magnus didn't want to fall to Tzeentch, he got played by him because Magnus thought he was the smartest dude in the universe. That's kind of the fun thing about Tzeentch - he's the chaos God who actually likes chaos (as opposed to being absolutely predictable) and enjoys dunking on people who take themselves too seriously and get too big for their britches. No hate if that's not your thing, but he's definitely my favorite chaos god.

[@Hurricayne92]

Yea its like Warhammer fans have forgotten what the word 'chaos' actually means. There is a good reason why Tzeentch almost won the Great Game. They then arguably sabotaged themselves just to continue the game but lets not talk about that 🤣

[@casuallydeep1368]

Tzeentch is definitely my favorite as well

[@necroLAN]

Magnus did not get played by tzeentch because he thought that he was smarter ....hell he didnt even know he was dealing with tzeentch until it was too late all thanks to the genius emperor not informing the most talented psyker after him about the chaos gods and his webway project , even then with nothing but hope and love for his sons ....magnus tried to redeem them , then he said fuсk it , he doesnt just want to redeem them , he wants them to go on and survive .....he went in and fought back along his sons against the space wolves , whom almost snatched defeat from the jaws of victory ....had magnus been the victor of that battle then tzeentch wouldve never gotten him , so even tzeentch had to intervene just so magnus would lose no matter what , shattered ...now magnus had no other choice , one foot in inside tzeentchs dominion .....the straw that broke the camels back was when magnus infiltrated terra and met face to face with the emperor with vulcan beside him....how the emperor spoke to him like he did back in the days , like a father talking to his son , he apologized and told him that he was right about horus all along but then .....he gave him the foulest ultimatum , so foul that i wouldnt doubt that it offended magnus , he offered him to be forgiven and let back into the emperium of mankind , as long as he is ridden of his sons ....magnus at that point gave in to tzeentch.

[@Shadowoftheoldones]

@@necroLAN The crux of the matter is as you said: "he didnt even know he was dealing with tzeentch until it was too late". That's how Tzeentch played Magnus. Magnus knew there were malevolent entities in the warp, but he thought he was smart enough to get the better of a deal with an extremely powerful warp entity. He was overconfident and it cost him.

[@xXx_Regulus_xXx]

the God of Calvinball.

[@dafewger]

Lol, Tzeentch is clearly messing with him and he doesn't know it

[@MrGorillafist]

I think youve missed two key parts about being a follower of tzeentch: 1. A lot of followers of tzeentch likely dont go into being his follower willingly. See Magnus, Ahriman etc 2. I dont think followers of tzeentch know they're at risk of becoming a chaos spawn at the tzeentch's merest whim. We know because we've got a metanarrative view of the setting and its stories but the characters sure as shit dont. Tbc i do find tzeentch to be an annoying god but i think assuming he has willing followers who know whats going on is a bit of a stretch for most of them.

[@pedropierre9594]

You can say that about the other chaos gods, you dont really know if youll turn into a diarrhea bug or into green lizzo with Nurgle

[@jessikablake4784]

I had a bad night that caused me to go out and about finding a random sign for upcoming mma chances, i seen cuz i crossed rhe street at right place and time cuz i follow omens I likely wont have the entry fee but i started taking out my suicidal anger strengthening my striking bones against the brick wall I follow Malice but i think since the nature is parasitic it draws from all other chaos gods I see things in metanarritive but thats to a very limited extent, the chaos spawn line is a fine one and life is mostly brutal pain so i walk it anyways Once normal life is unattainable chaos gods are much more palatable Tho for tzeench proper bohemian grove politics and the elites worship them, i cant wait for Armageddon and the elites to burn die - i hate the followers of the chaos gods with burning passion so Malice it is Changer of ways to sabotage the changers of ways People are ignorant to see the chaos gods are real embodiments of human nature Well phone is bout to die so

[@oatmealman1586]

So zeentch is kinda like nurgle? Very few of nurgle's followers are willing followers. Many were ill and in pain and nurgle was the only relief available to them. They follow nurgle only so that they stop suffering.

[@robdeskrd]

People know what they are getting if they are serving Tzeench and the Thousand Sons got screwed by 1) Magnus, 2) Ahriman, not Tzeench.... and yeah he is fickle & capricious but so is Nurgle & Slanesh (Khorne is not- if you blood for the god & skull for the throne you are in good with the big red rage monster) and while Tzeench MIGHT decide to turn you into chaos spawn if you are boring or you fuck up, Nurgle is ABSOLUTELY giving you a disease & Slanesh WILL decide to do the humiliating hurt-sex to you eventually.

[@ChrisKCook]

Engrim Van Horstman.

[@Adminium21]

Khorne : You will be killed immediately, and if you come back, killed again. You are a weak human in a world of absolutely horrific, bloodthirsty predators, you have no chance. Slaanesh : You are a human, you are the weakest and likely going to be chained to a table and tortured until you are insane and enjoy it, this could take decades. You will not be the same person at all by the time you could take any rewards. Nurgle : You will become some swollen, disgusting mass, enduing absolutely horrible pain and losing any drive or passion, and then you are just as likely to have some disease testing on you and die horribly. Tzeentch : You are thrown into a hurricane, likely going insane rather quickly, but potentially being geanted some boon for a time before being fucked over. Maybe you will be granted a boon so great you will become extremely important and powerful, who knows, or maybe youll just die. All in all, im taking Tzeentch. The others are literal fates worse fhan death, with no hope of anything good ever happening to you. With Tzeentch its at least possible, even if only a fraction of a fraction of a percent.

[@sher618]

Another one falling for the olest trick in his book...

[@Sam_Slick]

@@sher618 he's right. They all suck but Tzeentch is the best.

[@sher618]

@@Sam_Slick and another, fooled by promises of infinite power and knowledge, led by his unclenched pride. Do you believe YOU will seize the victory? Unless...

[@Sam_Slick]

@@sher618 no. I wouldn't choose chaos. If I had to though, tzeentch would be better than the rest.

[@jabloko992]

@@Sam_Slick "less terrible" I guess is the way to phrase it.

[@Swedsman]

I think one aspect you miss from Tzeentch worshipers are the hubris and arrogance that are at the core of magic in the Warhammer setting. That's basically how Tzeentch roped in Magnus, by letting him think he had been bested and that Magnus now had control of the warp. Magic is unpredictable, unstable and can't be controlled or contained, that's the whole point. But Tzeentch makes you think you're the exception. Adding some sort of ruleset or code of conduct would be completely antithetical to everything Tzeentch is and represent, the unknowable, uncontrollable nature of magic. As to why people would choose Tzeentch over any other god knowing that the odds are 99% that they'll end up betrayed or turned into a chaos spawn at random is that they all believe they're the 1%, and Teentch feed them this lie.

[@robcast47]

I really like that explanation. It emphasizes the evil crazy wizard vibe.

[@legionnaire5947]

Exactly, we all think we’re the exception to the rule, we all think we are owed a win after gambling for hours or days… but we aren’t, and we don’t, gambling is about chance. Tzeentch is the chaos of the chaos gods; he’s inevitable, omniscient, and annoying

[@darealdovahkiin3652]

I really like your take on this, makes me think Tzeentch is a bit less lame

[@alexbailey902]

Perfect explanation

[@DoosieCartes]

Ahriman is the exception to the rule. He hates Tzeentch and Tzeentch loves him for it.

[@siaratan9982]

Considering the other options are becoming the most disgusting thing ever, jumping into the drug filled torture orgy pile or becoming angron, tzeench doesn't seem that bad. Tzeench fucks you over for the same reason the other gods do: leaving the pursuit. Khorne fucks you over if you stop your puruit for blood. Slaneesh fucks you over if you leave your pursuit of pleasure. Idk what nurgle does but no thanks anyways. Tzeench punishes you for not pursuing change. Tzeench isn't just about plans within plans and deceit. You try to do something, you may or may not have a plan. You use its powers, maybe it fails, you try again, you adapt. New scheme? Or maybe just disintegrate that guy. If His way are like getting high on speed, you just do something constantly. Why he seems to fuck over so many is that they try to solve the problems, end the change and possible alternatives. Tzeench doesn't want that. If you are going to solve something, then it should cause more things that also need to be acted upon. You shouldn't create problems, as problems have sokutşon. You need to create dilemmas that lead to more and more choices. That's why people get fucked over. They want to solve a problem and be done with it. You get cocky, think you know it better, think that you are above and close a chapter, tzeench makes you fall. If you learn everything in your pursuit of knowledge, then what else there is to achieve for you? When you reach the peak, there is no place to go but down. Tzeench doesn't want the story to end. As long as there is another page, there could be anything written on it, and that is what tzeech wants.

[@MCo-kg1sx]

I couldn't have said it better

[@alexandrudorries3307]

Tzeench is all about ambition - wanting more forbidden knowledge, seeking advancement above one’s peers, obtaining the most power possible at any cost - you must be obsessed with working your way up through the hierarchy to that coveted place at the top of the pyramid because, if you stop to rest or decide that what you have is enough, your god will grow bored and dispose of you in whatever manner is most amusing to it the moment you lose entertainment value. Tzeench loves to string people along with promises, giving them just a taste of success before yanking whatever the worshiper desires just out of reach (see Ahriman’s quest to restore the Thousand Sons) or alternatively giving you what you thought you what you wanted in a way that leaves you unsatisfied and wanting more. Tzeench is the god of treachery, aiding those who plot the complete and utter downfall of their enemies - not through the mindless violence of Khorne, but by causing that person to loose everything that matters to them and making certain that they know exactly who destroyed their life while being powerless to retaliate. Tzeench offers the ability to manipulate whoever you desire into loving you, it promises the knowledge to bring someone back from the dead, it can give you the power to change the course of events to atone for past mistakes and set things right again… at a cost. This is Tzeench’s potential - but, unfortunately, it’s a whole lot easier to write **lol so random** instead.

[@Nykandros]

I've always personally disagreed with tying ambition as a concept to Tzeentch exclusively. Khorne, Slaneesh & Tzeentch all have elements of ambition that define their core essence; it's really only Nurgle that doesn't, and that's kind of the point of his character. Followers of Khorne seek to be the strongest; the most mighty. To fell the greatest enemies & beasts in direct combat, to be the unstoppable. Kharn literally has a kill-counter in his helmet to "keep score" and constantly seeks to reach a new record. Followers of Slaneesh seek perfection; they're driven to pursue & desire in excess, and must have the best of everything (as well as BE the best at everything). They view everything as some sort of art or craft to be honed & perfected, to seek out the highest form of experience. Followers of Tzeentch seek greater power, yes; but Tzeentch himself kind of seems hostile to the concept of actual achievement. Like his whole "plans for no reason, with no real goal" thing seems to be in stark contrast to a goal-driven, ambitious mindset that's working towards concrete accomplishments. But he DOES embody the striving for more, for the "new"; which is where I think he fits perfectly.

[@westphalianstallion4293]

@@Nykandros I really enjoy the chaos/chaos god aspect of 40k and you pointed out some aspect of the dual nature of all the chaos gods. The gods gain their powers from all emotions in their domain. Nurgle is survival in the form of just staying alive and maybe without pain. Khorne boils down to survival by overcoming your opposition directly. Slaneesh its about pleasure and perfection. And chasing this idea of perfection, playing your instrument, practicing your combat skills are not that hedonistic pleasure but its still the domain of slaneesh. A mortal can try to avoid all the others by tempering one-selves emotions. But all stems from the desire to change. And this is where Tzeentch is a great balancing force for the status quo. If you want to change the actual situation for any reason, you are in his domain. And all psychic non corrupted beings in the universe are eager for change because yeah the milky way sucks in 40k. Thats why he is kind of hard to write because its too general. There is no task you can do that didnt has change for its goal.

[@Caspenar]

This. This is exactly why I love Tzeentch.

[@CrizzyEyes]

​​​@@NykandrosAmbition is tied to Tzeentch because ambition is change. People who are not in power obtain power; that is where ambition leads. Also, I'm fairly sure Tzeentch is the primordial Chaos god. The first to exist because to exist is to change, thanks to entropy. It makes sense that each other god except Nurgle, his antithesis, would have an aspect of him.

[@Cinsightfully]

My headcannon is that Tzeentch is borderline not a god at all, amd there is no greater will. Tzeentch is the personification of magic and the ambition for knowledge and control. Tzeentch's "champions" are just a bunch of unrelated super powerful wizards. Tzeentch didn't screw over the Seekers of Truth, they just succeeded at casting their spell but hadn't thought through the practical consequences.

[@dolphinboi-playmonsterranc9668]

"Maybe I shoulf change the chaos god I worship" Tzeentch: It's upsetting because I don't know whether to reward you for causing change or to punish you for attempting to leave. So I shall make you in the most magical roast chicken to ever exist.

[@Miron_Marnic]

I... pretty heavily disagree with you on this topic, Mr.Bones. First things first, by pledging your soul to Chaos you are accepting damnation. No matter what god you follow, you've made a bargain with the devil. You *are* on the wrong side, and it *will* bite you in the ass. For me the question is: How would I spend the limited time I have before the debt is to be paid? Would I become a bloodthirsty berserker, all my goals and ambitions getting drowned in a tide of gore? Would I become an empty hedonist, losing myself in depravity to fill the void inside? Would I become an apathetic corpse devoid of all purpose and meaning? Or would I become a space wizard riding a demon-ray, having the power to shake the stagnant world a bit? The thing with Tzeentch is that he *will* screw you over. It's only a matter of time before he hits the chaos spawn button. And that's liberating! If i know that I'll get backstabbed, I don't have to worry about any grand plan or greater agenda. I can just be an obnoxious magic prankster, and I can be satisfied with it. No other god gives you this kind of freedom.

[@thefanciesttortoise557]

A lot of chaos fans seem to forget that the chaos gods are the devil and will betray you no matter how "kind" or "honourable" they claim to be

[@Soupslugboi]

I dunno man… like you said no matter what you will get kicked to the curb if you follow chaos even if it isn’t your fault so I don’t fully see how becoming a chaos spawn or some other mindless spawn would free me from regrets for tzeentch specifically when all gods pretty openly don’t care about their followers (if anything wouldn’t you want slaanesh for pleasure seeking like that?) but yeah the magic would be cool… NOT!! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD, SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!

[@Miron_Marnic]

@@epiceg9464 That's also very true.

[@Miron_Marnic]

@Soupslugboi Like, I respect the Khornate grindset, don't get me wrong, but magic is objectively cool. Sorry, not sorry.

[@mr.ashenfire2624]

All you really have to do is be half-reasonable in your planning. And half-mad enough to follow through. And not think yourself a God among lesser men and beings. Once you start thinking youre better than everyone and can outsmart your deity you're cooked. They already know your intentions.

[@evanjohns795]

Not liking that a chaos god is chaotic is like hating that water is wet

[@AJPzaworld]

I get the overall message with Tzeentch, namely that he is a literal embodiment of the Fate itself: the more you try and fight against it, to change it, the quicker it comes/devastating it is. He screws over his followers because they are arrogant and think they are above Fate, and he reminds them that their plans inevitably falters. Issue is that Tzeentch is written to be “Plans within plans” guy and it’s like everything is somehow apart of his plan when it isn’t, lol. He’s a very odd God, and is the result when you give a character like that nigh omnipotence without just having him win the setting.

[@mr.ashenfire2624]

He would be better if he was depicted more as a Half-Mad, Rambling God who is both the wisest and the most foolish of the Gods. Not foolish because he thinks himself above the others. But foolish in terms of aloof. Oblivious to the smaller picture. Only ever seeing the Big and wanting to achieve The Big, because he is God of Ambition among other pantheons. His plans should not be infallible; just half-reasoned. And when that plan fails, it should trigger new actions Tzeentch has to spend time renewing. This whole OH THIS WAS MY PLAN THE WHOLE TIME is kinda stale. Dont get me wrong i loved the whole Just As Planned meme thing. Its just overdone with Tzeentch to the point I'd like to see him actually struggle at bit.

[@austindecaux7895]

​@@mr.ashenfire2624IMO that literally is how he's depicted lol, I don't think OP is wrong either but I don't think a lot of people in the comments here have actually read many of the books or at the least really understood the concept of what tzeench is and represents on a meta level.

[@allthenamesiwantedweretaken]

"the result when you give a character like that nigh omnipotence without just having him win the setting." That's the funny part, it's a common theory that Tzeentch will never let himself win, because if he does then there won't be anyone left to scheme against. It's because of this that he'll secretly scheme against himself as well as his enemies to ensure that the cycle will continue forever, allowing him to still scheme.

[@pancakes8670]

I prefer this reading of Tzeentch. That no matter what, your plans inevitably change nothing. It's almost nihilistic.

[@AJPzaworld]

@@austindecaux7895 Which is cool, especially metatextually, it’s just compared to other gods who sort of stand for this element, like Mög-Pharau aka The No-God or Ajokli from The Second Apocalypse or The Gods of Order and Chaos from the Eternal Champion or the Incal Masters from the Jodorowskyverse, I find this executed better in these universes on the meta level, as they served both narrative and theme without it feeling like you’re just having Tzeentch doing whatever, which he is doing and not doing and maybe not doing. Squid Boi deserves better.

[@football4life85]

U don’t want to be backstabbed so you would join in with Khorne? His damn champion is called The Betrayer!!😂

[@Samagachi]

You know, now that i think about it, it is kinda odd that someone called “the betrayer” isn’t aligned with tzeentch 🤔

[@revanne5012]

0:51 hates Tzeench so bad that he's considered worse than the guy who uses his 11 best warriors as sacrifices to materialise lmao

[@mateokirstine9782]

Plus, if memory serves, in fantasy Malal/Malice was also constantly eating your soul dark eldar style. You got super super strong even compared to other chaos followers, but you were also dying whenever you weren’t eating other chaos followers lol.

[@doomrazermarine]

Tzeentch isn’t random, he just rewards the servants who can keep their ambitions alive and punishes those who give in to contentment. He seems random because the desires and motivations of his servants are random.

[@aidan-h3p]

Most people don't choose Tzeench, Tzeench chooses them. Once he takes an interest in you, there is almost nothing you can do. You can run, you can try to deny chaos or ignore him, but he has already planned for all of that. You cant flee destiny and he is destiny. Also, as a professional Malice enjoyer, I demand a video on my boy.

[@danieltodorov7753]

By that logic why doesn't Tzeench just take interest in the leaders of all major factions of WH40K ?

[@lordcirrhosisofliver]

BEcause the faction leaders are too strong for that, big e burned down nurgles garden, the silent king can turn off massive parts of the warp anytime he wants with his necron pylon tech, hell even when you look at factions with weak lerders like the tau they are psychically weak thus naturally resistant to chaos and don't really have a single person tzeentch can manipulate because they are ruled by a caste and not a person, etc. Chaos gods are strong but they aren't omnipotent.

[@aidan-h3p]

I apologize, I appear to have miscommunicated. My hyperbolic language was employed to show how unknowable and terrifying Tzeench is from the non-god tier perspective, that held by all of his followers.

[@helix.01]

​@@danieltodorov7753in universe plot armor (powerful souls or something? lol)

[@ImperfectSaltes]

even more so a "deal with the devil" type than the other gods. You go to him because you don't see another option. You NEED to know something, a make a deal that will ultimately be your downfall

[@jiado6893]

1:27 that demon art is so cool, where all of the strands of hair are actually little evil guys. It would be cool if there was a model like that.

[@raptor7385]

I choose Tzeentch because forbidden knowledge tempts me far more than violence, disease, or earthly pleasures

[@zhangzongchang1057]

This is tzeentch. 🤓. These are his followers 🤓🤓🤓. They all love forbidden knowledge.

[@spartax8986]

​@@zhangzongchang1057 - A Tzeentch follower

[@quietatombomb1262]

You are completely wrong. While I know I am comparing multiple forms of brain cancer when comparing the Chaos gods, Tzeentch is actually the best one. What Tzeentch offers is (false) hope. The feeling that you might one day be the best thing ever. As for the other gods: 1. Slanesh wants you to be a drug addict. 2. Khorne wants you to be a crazed psychopath, 3. Nurgle wants you to be a nihilistic doomer. Tzeentch wants you to amuse him through your ambition, and will grant you blessings when you are clever, intelligent and resourceful.

[@secondbeamship]

If you’ve ever absorbed yourself in knowledge (I am in college now and love the library), in endless layers of abstractions, and how fun that is, then you can kinda understand why I like Tzeentch. Tzeentch is my favorite God for many reasons. One, he is some twisted notion of hope (Emperor that you?) and two he is funny at times. Tzeentch never takes anything too seriously. Like Nurgle, he’s just a genuinely happy God. He likes trolling obviously. But, as much as the fans portray him as “always lies” this really isn’t the case. He represents the double edged sword that is knowledge. In some ways, he is the most “Human” of the Gods. Only highly advanced species can even hear the call of Tzeentch. The other three gods are something all life forms can experience. Humanity, in 40k, should survive by their cunning, which is a Tzeentchian trait. Tzeentch offers knowledge in exchange for something. The reality is that mortals only understand knowledge imperfectly. Tzeentch isn’t actually sentient nor actually has the will to backstab as the fandom likes to portray. Any backstabbing percieved by mortals is merely a mortal not grasping omniscience.

[@giuseppeluna1975]

Seems like even Tzeentch is not immune to his own influence if you think he needs an “overhaul” to his concept of chaos

[@Mr.G7777]

Ever since I started to get deeper into this dark hole that is Warhemmer, I've grown more attached to Tzeentch than the other gods for a very strong reason. He's the only one who offers a chance to be truly free. It's hard to explain, but all the other chaos gods make you slaves to something. Khorn makes you a slave to violence, and even though he talks about honor, he'll still let you kill your friends in a fit of rage. Slanesh makes you a slave to your vices. And Nurgle makes you a slave to himself, you lose your critical sense and instantly fall in love with the "love" of daddy Nurgle. Tzeentch is the only one who says "do whatever you want, as long as you have a plan". Can he give you power just to turn you into a magic book for another follower of his? Yes. But one thing I noticed is that Tzeentch never betrays or gets in the way of those who follow him and have ambitious or "complex" plans. I agree, he is one of the worst to follow, but he is the one that offers the most freedom as long as you stay smart, it won't always work, but that's where the second point comes in. Following Tzeentch is having the gamblecor life in the extreme, if you want to bet your luck and trust your intelligence, Tzeentch probably won't turn you into a monster.

[@andyroobrick-a-brack9355]

I feel like he could also reward you for NOT having a plan. So long as you strive to change the world and/or yourself, he is interested in you.

[@murrayrothbardgaming7567]

@@andyroobrick-a-brack9355 Tzeentch is the God of Revolutionaries and Ideologues, if you take over your city, your next plan should entail you taking over your nation, then your continent, then the world, through elaborate schemes and maneuvering, and if you become content, he gets bored of you and stops aiding you and fucks you over. He is the God of Change, so even if you become Emperor of Random Planet, you better make new laws that lead to sweeping change, everyday or else you'll lose his favor

[@Feroce]

Of course he enslaves his followers; with hubris, with ambition, with hope. Tzeentch followers are all fooled into thinking they have freedom when they're actually trapped in their own head, and Tzeentch stokes those feelings regularly. Magnus is a great example of this. Tzeentch preys on your mental weaknesses just as much as any other chaos god does, it's just that his particular brand of manipulation works especially well on the people who think they have good intentions, people who think they're smart, people who want something better. It's all a trap and his followers blindly walk into it every single time. The freedom is a complete illusion.

[@AYAKXSHI]

He actually notoriously screws over his followers simply because he doesn’t want either side to win the great game this is well known he helps the imperium and chaos

[@vivechjorviani5440]

I'd like to think his favorite follower isn't some big powerful magic guy or an ambitious Nobel but just like a little guy with an office job who is manipulating everyone and everything in his life with complex schedules and plots so that he can be as lazy as possible as efficiently as possible, like a 300 IQ guy, who just wants to be left alone, and he will because its the best show Tzeench has seen and he'll be dammed if it's going to end.

[@Sumec90801]

Without really digging in deep, it can be difficult to understand why anyone would want to worship Tzeentch (or more appropriately, why they'd bargain with them over any of the other gods as you pointed out), hopefully I can shed some light on that with my perspective. Firstly, as you pointed out, the other chaos gods are easier to understand because they offer much more immediate and tangible rewards, and that's the keyword there: tangible. Part of being a god of magic, transformation and change, etc, is going to lie in the immaterial nature of it as a chaos god. Khorne is very concerned with physical strength in a very direct way that requires a hale and hearty body. Nurgle is all about the entropy of the universe in a very physical way. Slaanesh is all about pleasure, but it's a very material pleasure that effects the body. I'm aware that once you die and end up in the immaterium, which is you know - not material anymore. For all intents and purposes, though, it may as well be. It functions like the material world for the most part. If Chaos comes into the material realm, it will fuck with things in a physical way the same way it will if you die and it has you in a spiritual way. Another way of looking at this, is that with any of the other chaos gods, there's no real escape, even in death. The experience of being in thrall to Khorne is going to feel very physical, the experience of being tortured/pleasured by Slaanesh is going to feel very physical and relies on a lot of the mental conception of nerves being triggered, drugs, etc. If you are someone who has suffered a lot of alienation from your material body, or the material world more generally, you might view Tzeentch as, essentially, the only option you have to escape that. Fire is an important part of Tzeentch's iconography for a reason. Fire is constantly changing and transitive, but it also has a lot of spiritual meaning across multiple mythologies, and human beings usually refer to it as something that they have which no other animal does. It's for this reason that while a lot of people might assume that a transgender person would fall in with Slaanesh pretty easily, because Slaanesh is an excellent enabler, and at least in our society, a trans person is often considered by people who *aren't* trans as people who are repressed/depressed, people who want to be beautiful, and some less than savory people like to assume a sexual component. So, Slaanesh seems to them like a no brainer, but it's just as likely that someone who has felt 'trapped' would rather throw their lot in with the god of change to help make sure they're never trapped that way again. This is a very important facet that I feel your perspective kind of takes for granted. The attitude presented when you talk about Khorne, Slaanesh, or Nurgle, is that if you work really hard, you can and will succeed, that you can be guaranteed to one degree or another, finding a position that is tenable, and of being secure in that position. Think about that for a second. For someone to have security in a position, they have to feel like that position isn't going to go away, and in order for them to feel that way, there has to be some degree of truth to that. Do you think Archaon in Warhammer Fantasy and Age of Sigmar gets to be the everchosen forever because he's just that fuckin' good? No, it probably has a lot more to do with his legions, the relics at his disposal, the blessings the gods continuously heap at his feet. This is an extreme example, and obviously has to be some degree of competent to keep his lead, but that is one part the influence of Tzeentch in any kind of Undivided situation. Additionally, there are countless servants of chaos who could have been a "better leader" than that guy, and we will simply never know because they got roped by systems designed to keep top dogs on top. If you're not the top dog, if the system requires people like you to keep those top dog on top, you are, again, going to feel hopelessly confined. The betrayal and backstabbing of Tzeentch isn't a bug, it's a feature, because you can't take half measures with that sort of thing. Either Tzeentch is a god that allows for change and feeds on the hopes of souls trying to improve their lot, or they aren't. You don't get to be the chaos god of change by going "Except for my followers, one, two, three, bases all over those guys." Obviously there's a lot of terrible writing in Warhammer fiction in general, and I feel like a lot of the time Tzeentch gets-not the worst of it, because they always pull out all the stops to make it clear that serving chaos sucks-but it's often the most contrived? The most unfair? Take your pick, honestly. To an extent we do need to reckon with the reality that it's just lazy, or bad writing. I'm talking primarily about the "Hahahaha wouldn't it be funny if this strange thing happened?" situations. It's easy to see how serving chaos would suck with any of the other chaos gods. Tzeentch offers power and mastery that kind of positions you well to find some kind of contentment, unless they simply decide that the god will take all of those things away on a whim. But the thing is, even if you consider that kind of forced dickishness, you can't really just assume that the fall results in a new permanent state where your existence only sucks. They are, again, the god of change, and for you to simply become a pile of ash forever would be to completely disrupt what Tzeentch is supposed to represent at all. After all, Tzeentch is also associated with birds, and the phoenix is a powerful mythical being that periodically turns to ash, only to come back at the appointed time. Whatever a servant of Tzeentch might be afraid of, they can at least be reasonably sure that it won't be their lot for eternity, which is more than you can say about any of the other gods.

[@PoxHydra128]

"Without digging in too deep" - Proceeds to write a book

[@SuperPal-tr3go]

What could Tzeentch offer you: Bend reality so you can back in time and save your loved ones from a mistake you caused. That's basically the Thousand Sons whole deal. Trying desperately to reverse what happened despite it being a delusional and destructive hope. That or just being able to bend reality with just a thought.

[@LexYeen]

But _would_ Tzeentch let you have that without a monkey's-paw twist to it?

[@andyroobrick-a-brack9355]

​@@LexYeenGiven Tzeentch is a god of Chaos, a pantheon of entropic and insane entities, it's probably something hyper specific or pulled right out of his ass. My preferred interpretation is that Tzeentch just forgets bargains. The Chaos Gods probably don't know what they're doing is wrong, they are what they are, and that's terrifying.

[@aidan-h3p]

@@LexYeen Maybe, maybe not. The question is, are you feeling lucky? And once you win, are you willing to spin the wheel again?

[@SuperPal-tr3go]

@@LexYeen Oh certainly not. But all the Chaos Gods fuck you over. Slannesh gives you endless pleasure and makes you an addict in constant despair trying to get the same high from the beginning of your corruption. Khorne giving you the strength to "free" yourself from your callous father only to turn you into a drooling monster forsaking everything you once believed in. Chaos sucks and will fuck you over and pretending only Tzeentch will fuck over in bullshit ways is kind of missing the point.

[@pessien8474]

Let's be honest here, the goal of the Thousand Sons isn't impossible, it's very much possible, it just takes a A LOT of innovation, and a long time. Tzeentch wouldn't give his followers an impossible goal, he'd want them to work hard for them because conceptually, that's what he is.

[@bluemilkalienmonster522]

I really wish they would lean more into the cosmic horror aspect/potential for Tzeentch

[@TheNumber86]

It's hard to explain why I prefer Tzeentch. I don't want to murder and claim skulls mindlessly, I'd die due to being too weak, I don't have any delusions about my strength, so Khrone is a no-go. The other two gods are completely out of the question because they're so disgusting I'd rather end it than worship them. I feel like the pursuit of knowledge and magic with the occasional backstabbing sounds the least awful to me. I mean, yeah, everything I plan will probably go to hell and I'll have a shiv in my back by the end of the day, but at least I got to learn something. I'm not worshipping the other three.

[@andyroobrick-a-brack9355]

I wish they would defer to Tzeentch's knowledge seeking aspects. It fits the wizard aesthetic, and it fits the trickster aesthetic. I just dislike the same old "hyper complex plansss," I prefer the "cackling old hermit running around in blissful insanity shooting lightning out of his fingers" vibes. I actually really liked Imurah from Space Marine 2 for that reason.

[@alejandrosandoval7325]

I thought the same, seeking knowledge and power it’s the other face of Tzeentch. Nurgle, Khorne or Slaanesh punish their followers for no reason or reasons that are too little for the kind of punishment they use… Tzeentch it’s is own flavor like Khorne or Nurgle

[@alejandrosandoval7325]

@@andyroobrick-a-brack9355 I also like Imura too. The magic powers are cool but also Tzeentch it’s the most free of his followers, like let’s you freelance and do your own plans

[@Nykandros]

I would aspire to be a dual champion of both Khorne & Tzeentch. I love the "Might Makes Right" ethos of Khorne & emphasis on bold, aggressive conflict. The law of strength is the law of nature. That said, I also like the strategy & cunning of Tzeentch; it's the other side of the competitive edge needed to come out on top. Together, they'd make one unstoppable. Most grandly, I love the ambition of Tzeentch; the desire to become more, greater, more power. I personally don't agree with tying the concept of ambition to Tzeentch exclusively, though; as Khorne & Slaneesh also have elements of ambition at their core.

[@alejandrosandoval7325]

@@Nykandros it’s a cool idea but either you choose one or become undivided but with your setup you can do whatever you want in tabletop

[@JizzyNinja]

You had me at dog wizard 7:51 I’m in!

[@noahs.6209]

If asked which Chaos God I would summit to, I keep coming back to Tzeentch because he's the only one whoms followers don't look like they reek of several dried layers of body fluids.

[@luna775]

Tzeentch follows one rule change.. that's it putting more rules is to stiff for him. Tzeentch laughs at your attempt to pt the ocean into a jar, mortal. However, he is pleased and displeased, get a random copy right claim and a army of bots... or not.. who knows

[@wahbegan]

Okay, i hear you, counterpoint: everything you just said IS incredibly fucking funny. If i was a god, i would act exactly like Tzeentch. No, but for real, Idk i just like its eldritch theme and how it's just Chaos in its purest form. This could be grief talking, but the universe does just screw everyone over and things happen for no reason at all. The greatest, most accomplished people in the world are a banana peel and a concrete floor away from an ignoble death, and the scum of the earth can bumblefuck their way into everything they want regardless of merit. Life's just like that. Tzeentch captures all the bizarre, hilarious, enraging, maddening nuances and paradoxes of existing to me

[@andyroobrick-a-brack9355]

Look, I would give a concerning amount of aspects of my life up to understand the meaning of everything, or to solve some great mystery, or bend the power of reality. Tzeentch prays on those who want power, knowledge, and a better tomorrow, but lack the means to get it. Such was the fate of Magnus and Arhiman, and such is the fate of all who follow him. That's why Tzeentch is my favorite god. As you said, he is representative of all the bullshit that happens, big and small. Tzeentch, in my personal experience with 40k, is not a master planner. He is a trickster, the Lord of Whispering wind, who can form a tornado with a breath and throw everything around him into unrest and confusion. Some people want to follow the wind, it makes them curious, and their curiosity is what will get them swept up. That's why, whether I want to or not, I would probably follow him. To be a part of that grand change sweeping across everything and nothing would be too tempting. Imagine what one could learn, how much sense it could all make if we could just find the pattern to the wind. But the weather is unpredictable, and the Whispering Wind sends deceit, not because of malice. The wind is too fickle to care.

[@jamesteegardner2273]

Tzeench: "We get up to a bit of trolling in the warp." Khorne: "Shut up NERD!"

[@Kurze099]

Tzeentch always struck me as the most imbalanced relationship. Like he pulls you in to damn you and use you for his entertainment and I find his followers the most tragic. The other gods tend to have something you want and there’s a give and take. Also I’d love to see some malice content

[@ArtisBlankfaces]

When you're a Tzeentch follower you need to be more independent and self sufficient, seek your own knowledge and plan out your success, Tzeentch helps you break out of the chains of your old life, you still have to do a lot through your own ingenuity. Not a easy nor fair god to follow, but at least he doesn't torture you into worshipping him (as much as some other gods do)

[@kadthemagiclad9357]

I would always just refer to him as “The nerd” or his worshippers as “The nerds” this is the most information I have learned of him yet

[@SuperPal-tr3go]

Yeah Tzeentch is no more of a shitty patron than the other Gods. All Four will fuck you over. And all Four will turn you into Chaos Spawn if you fuck up.

[@conan2096]

yeah but nurgz says he loves you tho, the others just say fuck you, or fuck everything in the vicinity lol.

[@TheVoidIsCold]

@@conan2096 Nurgle loves you just as much as he loves the flies feasting on your rotting flesh, the maggots crawling through your eyes, the grubs growing fat on your fetid, rotting flesh. He loves humans just as much as he loves each virus, each small maggot, each parasite in humans. And when you have a million children that can grow fat and happy and strong at the expense of just one of your 'children'... well, the sacrifice is easy enough to make, no? The good of the many outweighs the pain of the few, after all

[@Pihsrosnec]

not just if you fuck up, they'll all also turn you into chaos spawn if you do well

[@Samagachi]

@@Pihsrosnec you gotta be both competent and lucky, which is why so few champions achieve daemonhood

[@IsolationLifts]

"Tzeench carries no favor to anyone and will dispose of you at any given moment..." OOOOH so it's like modern dating.

[@mementomori771]

Tzeentch is probably the quickest way to power compared to the other God's big disagree that a Khorne cultist could reach similar levels for only a bit more work being banned from magic and all

[@ArtisBlankfaces]

Khorne followers are strong because the weak ones have already died during their first charge into a defensive position. Tzeentch followers survive by planing successfully and overthrowing planetary defenses or correctly summon and control a daemon.

[@fattys4peace]

Feel like a part of tzeench you kinda glossed over is the knowledge he can offer. Will nurgle share the secrets of the universe? Will slaanesh give you the meaning of life? Will khorne tell you when your dad is coming back from getting milk? No, but tzeench will. he very well MIGHT screw you over but he certainly does have what your looking for. As for a way to fix him if he can just intercept prayers and wishes, make him a monkey paw. Just the living embodiment of "be careful what you wish for".

[@Bread-nx9fo]

Rubric marines are great, we need more dust mummies

[@dean_l33]

SM2 have a bunch of them

[@thelordz33]

L take. Would rather be a bird than a walking rotting Nurgle abomination, rage fueled Khornite, or sex and pain fueled Slaanesh abomination

[@madflam3192]

Tzeentch is better since you only get fucked over after the deal compared to the other gods like becoming a rotting corpse that can barely feel anything with Nurgle, awlays trying to reach something that you can't get with Slannesh or only caring about blood and skulls with the rest of your personality gowing away with Khorn While with Tzeentch you just have a chance to be backstabbed by an other follower or turn into a chaos spawn in the future or you can just become even more powerfull if you're lucky and do stuff he wants

[@pessien8474]

It's also worth noting that ALL the chaos gods can turn you into a chaos spawn. "Oh, but Tzeentch can turn you into a chaos spawn because it's funny!" Yeah, and Khorne will turn you into a screaming pile of flesh that only knows how to fight because you didn't kill someone. Chaos spawnhood is the punishment the gods give to their followers, big deal.

[@BasicallyBaconSandvichIV]

Tzeentch would even reward you for planning to betray him, which is amazing. It would be great if there was a story where some character finally managed to crack the code on his reward/punishment code and actually managed to just hack the system and Tzeentch just let it happen, I'd love that. Like this dude did absolutely nothing of worth, except for figuring out how to gain the system and actually doing that and he actually gets rewarded. Even better if they weren't even really a chaos follower, but just a bored nerd with to much time on their hands who's totally unrelated and comes completely out of left field even for Tzeentch. That possibility drives most Tzeentch followers, but it would be amazing to get conformation that you could just totally exploit the system practically unharmed.

[@theimperviousfirecracker7934]

I think part of the appeal with Tzeench is that he fills a certain nische that I think needed to be filled, at least in 40k. He's the magic god. Everyone likes a god of magic. And this one is extra fun because he's EVIL and he's willing to give cool magic powers to those who are willing to serve him. Now that I think about it Tzeench probably gives his followers the greatest gifts; Nurgle gives you a shield from death and takes away your pain and sorrow (also he gives you unconditional love). Khorne gives you MUSCLES, and Slaanesh gives you a good time ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°). But Tzeench? He gives you fucking MAGIG POWERS! That is COOL! And maybe the people that follow him think that such powers are worth the risk of potentially being turned into dust on a whim. Of course that doesn't amount to the gift that Sigmar can give you, which is making you a stoRMCAST ETERNAL! HEY WHEN'S THE STORMCAST ETERNALS VIDEO-

[@andyroobrick-a-brack9355]

I think that would be cooler than doing the same "I'm a backstabbing ghoul" shtick he does. The reward should be infinite knowledge and magic at the expense of being detached forever from reality.

[@coltoniusix7638]

Tzeentch is a good chaos god because he’s actually chaotic

[@SeanCrosser]

Tzeentch does reward plotting, ambition, and the search of NAWLEDGE

[@Feroce]

Ask Ahriman how well his search for knowledge is going. 10,000 years later and he still can't undo the Rubric, it took him a long time to get into the Black Library too and even then he could only examine one book that was essentially just a map. Tzeentch will never let his followers achieve what they want most without completely ruining it for them because that's how they remain his followers, by being trapped by their own hubris.

[@shadowborn1456]

​@@Ferocemark my words bro Ahriman will find a way eventually he was always determined in his own way unlike the red failure

[@sarjocole2626]

​@Feroce 10000 years is nothing in the grand scheme of things, tbf. It's a blip even if you compare it to just the amount of time it took humans to evolve. A follower of tzeentch is probably in it for the long haul.

[@CoffinGnasher]

Everything you said is absolutely true and is the reason why I personally love Tzeentch. There's a specific yt comment that I saw that highlights my reason better than I ever could: "Tzeentch I've been been your greatest follower for 20 millennia. Why did you you turn both of my balls into nuclear reactors?!" "I made a bet" "With who!?!?" "Myself."

[@kimarous]

Tzeentch HAS a "concrete ruleset": CHANGE! He is the Changer of Ways. He embodies change is all of its forms: change of flesh, of station, of social order, of hope, of ambition, and so forth. People turn to Tzeentch because they either seek a change or have been changed. It starts out simple - maybe you don't like your living conditions and want a change of leadership, which the whisper in the Warp promises it can fulfill... but it never stops with just that specific goal. Chaos as a whole thrives on corrupting singular goals into a consuming obsession that serves the Ruinous Powers.

[@jonhg92]

Thats the thing tho, change would mean to change whats good about change, if that makes sense. Basically a game of spin the bottle, but you dont like what it landed on so you spin again and again and again and again just because. You dont achieve anything

[@zhcultivator]

Only for Knowledge, is why I would want to worship Tzeentch...

[@ChrisToefurBackCashGrab]

You can't fool me, I know you really love Magnus most of all.

[@InquisitorXarius]

Bones loves Magnus he just hate’s Tzeentch. Which given what Tzeentch did to Magnus and his legion I think the hate is valid.

[@YakubTheFather]

Erebus did nothing wrong

[@dean_l33]

@@YakubTheFather This one belong in Trazyn vault of idiots

[@YakubTheFather]

@@dean_l33 Erebus is innocent

[@WorshipperOfKhone]

​@@YakubTheFather*Psychically nukes terra*

[@NordakMaster]

“it doesn’t correspond to my preset standards, so it’s bad lol”

[@momozappa3118]

Honestly I like the idea of worshipping tzeenctch by performing and casting complex rituals. By doing that they could win more favor and if they fail their punishment is poof chaos spawn. You could even have those who seek the truth so you can then use it to manipulate others and maybe force other into seeking tzeentch. Idk just spit balling here id rather go for nurgle since he seems the most easy to worship. I think Malice and Nurgle deserve a spotlight since you're already on a roll with the chaos gods. Go for it bro.

[@DakuHonoo]

It's so clear you're not a nerd.

[@bbutler3230]

if i had to change Tzeench, i would make him not respect true "worship". Like the ideal Tzeench follower is someone who just wants to use Tzeench to achieve power and thinks they are tricking Tzeench for it, and if you unironically worship him he now views you as a disposable pawn for his goals/amusement. Tzeench will still mess with you but he wont just kill you for fun and will act like he wants that "true worship" but he can sort of detect in your soul if you mean it.

[@pessien8474]

This is exactly what Tzeentch is though? He helps the followers who try to use him while fucking up the ones who worship him.

[@LordTuskk]

Something being set in stone, like a rule to keep you safe, goes against everything Tzeentch stands for. He his the god of change. No matter what plans and schemes you make, they can all fall apart because of one thing. Change. And for why people would choose to follow him.The people who follow him believe themselves to be smarter than everyone else or that they know better. The reason they choose to follow Tzeentch is because they believe they're smarter than the other guy, so they won't be turned into a chaosspawn

[@Thebe-hoodedfiles]

As a person who likes tzeentch both aesthetic and lore I do think he is very predictable at times like half of his followers get betrayed by him anyway and like I get it he’s the god of change and tricky but there has to be a point we’re he can still be a trickster who still gives his followers something in return other then being turned into a chaos spawn. Teezntch models are still cool though like I would love to build and paint a lord of change model some day.

[@jontyhugh1080]

I always found it bizarre that people critiqued Khorne for being simple. Every story with Tzzentch ends up going one of two directions. Betrayal or delayed betrayal after attaining power.

[@andyroobrick-a-brack9355]

I really want Tzeentch's trickster/sorcerer vibe to be explored more. I find the hyper intelligent schemer to be played out, show me a mad, unpredictable wizard shooting lightning from his fingers. I want a trickster, dammit!

[@Thebe-hoodedfiles]

@@andyroobrick-a-brack9355 I think that a lot more people would play teezntch if they did that to be honest.

[@jontyhugh1080]

@@Thebe-hoodedfiles or if any story with Tzzentch ended on a high note! That would be fucky. Like the hive city family manages to not get slaughtered. Gives an actual reason to worship the god. Instead of 'Changing fate' actually meaning 'You die horribly'

[@Thebe-hoodedfiles]

@@jontyhugh1080 see we’re coming up with more ideas for tzeentch then GW does just goes to show there are more interesting in then things besides space marine in this setting.

[@domesticbliss9332]

This video is secretly a Tzeench plot to make people love Tzeench through counter will.........

[@valtadir4368]

you mean HERESY ?!! o.o

[@JZ0UK]

Arthur has apparently not encountered a gambler 😂

[@tonypine3434]

Or the correct pronunciation of miniatures aka meeny achers as he calls them

[@JZ0UK]

Imagine the confusion in the event that there were some models of small bow armed men.

[@LordThanatosII]

Listen, I'm a schemer, a gambler, and, perhaps most importantly, a memer. And if I'm going to be evil, I'm going to be the biggest piece of shit I can ever possibly be, and no one else offers that better than Tzeentch. The next closest for me is Khorne and, honestly, I'm only on that grind like, 30%. And I'm very actively not fair fighter, nah, if we're on the battlefield it survival of the fittest and if you can't tank my tricks- tragic, anyways...

[@celdur4635]

Space Marine 2 has a pretty good way to explain how you can have Tzeench worship inadvertently.

[@conan2096]

the architect of fate is a dick too, thats the tzeench daemon that screwed over the soul drinkers.

[@Frogjuice02]

Tzeentch: why have you failed me? Follower of Tzeentch: you tell me!

[@philiphunn194]

I think the moment I knew that following Tzeentch was a bad idea was when I finished the short story "The Lives of Ferag Lion-Wolf" by Barrington J Bailey, where an exalted space marine champion gets knocked out in battle only to wake up and find he's a puny peasant on a feral world, about to be punished by his Tzeentch cult for botching a murder. He gets turned into a Chaos spawn after being told that his memories of life as a space marine are nothing but lies pushed into his brain for funsies by Tzeentch, and the few moments he has before his mind dissolves irreversibly into madness are filled with him trying to work out which of his lives was actually the real one. Great little story, but very unsettling.

[@anothershyguy]

The thing people forget is that Tzeentch doesn't want a "kiss-ass" worshiper that relies on him to achive their schemes instead of just doing it on their own. That's why he turns loyal worshippers into chaos spawn while giving blessings to ahriman as he actively schemes constantly on his own even if it's against Tzeentch themselves.

[@versok2999]

I mean, you talk about Tzeentch being less reliable, someone more likely to backstab you and deceive you, someone that, out of the four horrible options to pray to is most likely to give you a horrible fate...As if it's something bad, but it's kinda what I love the most about Tzeentch. He's a god that is as fickle as they come, ready to fuck his own followers over at any point, and it reflects on his followers themselñves: People that think themselves different, people that think they are above such consequences. Magnus, for example, knew there was a risk when it came to his sorcery, he did not know all the details, the Emperor did a horrible job at explaining why, but it had been abundantly clear that he wanted Magnus to stop pursuing sorcery for a reason. Like him and like many more, many followers of Tzeentch have this Skaven-like mindset of "I'm different, I'm the best follower of Tzeentch" and they truly think they're above consequences, and it's fun to see them screw each other over and even screw themselves over until they're unable to bullshit they way to success anymore. However, I like Tzeentch even more because while it's true many people would not choose to serve Tzeentch willingly right now, Tzeentch doesn't ask you to join when you're sound of mind. Out of all the chaos gods, he's the one most likely to approach you at your worst, give you an offer to change your position for the better. He's the one that gives you a chance to escape a prison, to save a loved one, to bring an important message to the Emperor of Mankind to stop the heresy...And many times he, too, is the one that put you in that situation from the start. Cause Tzeentch is not a mere god, he's a puppet master, and his worshippers are puppets, he's the manipulator god made out of the deceitful parts of mankind, and I like him because he's so deceitful. He's also the god of magic and pure corruption, which is the reason why by the point you're worshipping Tzeentch you're already crazier than even the average chaos cultist. Honestly it just sounds to me like the concept is simply not your cup of tea, just like there's people that may not like the simple concepts of Khorne, cuz when I heard of the seekers and what Tzeentch had in store for them I thought it was nice. Worshipping chaos is not a good idea, it's never a good idea, it just may look like a tempting idea before your very soul is damned, a bait you can take then it's hook, line and sinker. And out of the four, no one does it better than the bird obsessed asshole.

[@DoosieCartes]

Tzeentch and Slaanesh will both fuck you. Pray they dont fuck you together

[@UniqueSand-jr8vo]

Tzeentch is about change, chaos, and all forms of trickery- given that if you follow Tzeentch and are upset about your change, you never worshipped him. You determine your own punishment. Turning into a goat seems bad, but if the changer is pleased, all is good. At that point, it's not really 'bad', became a part of the plan the changer.

[@jakub_paints6775]

You clearly misunderstand Tzeentch. He isn't only a god of trickery and lies. He is also the changer of ways, the god of ambition. You want a better life? Tzeench can give you that. A gambler praying for a better dice roll. A poor merchant praying for a great business opportunity. The better tomorrow - that is Tzeentch.

[@jabloko992]

Tzeench is the only chaos god that embodies Hope. In this, he is the opposite of Nurgle: Nurgle is hopelessness. Give up, give in, let grandpapa take care of you. Tzeench is the struggle against the current, the refusal to yield to an unbending and predictable fate. You will still get fucked, just the same as with any other Chaos god, but at least you'll feel hopeful for a bit.

[@goofygothy3138]

"Hey, hey, people."

[@ascaban6220]

"Sseth here, have you ever dug too deep?"

[@michaelcollins4534]

I mean who wouldn't want to roll the dice every second of every day if you're going to become a chaos spawn because you were too efficient at the game he doesn't want to end?

[@ArtisBlankfaces]

They probably don't worry about it, do you wonder every day about being one of the many people that die in a day due to niche circumstances? What I mean is that being screwed over by Tzeentch is not as likely as dying as a hive worlder because your planets food delivery came late.

[@Drakon_Minaka]

I would like to see you cover Nurgle first, then malice. Just feels right in that order.

[@alvarotrallero5328]

Give me maliceeeeeeee

[@elmine7707]

Honestly F all y'all hoping for a dead an gone God, garbage ass story, with edgelord fans. Uncreative bullshit held back by shitty IP practices and genuinely uninteresting characters. Is that Malicious enough for you?

[@gaz4553]

Malice so lame though. Lol

[@Lancersilva]

Cry harder for your lame daemon

[@Alphariuslevrai]

​@@gaz4553he isn't even canon 🤭

[@Alpha-zb8sp]

Ignore him, he’s Alpha legion

[@fast1nakus]

Tzeench is like the only real chaos god. Everyone else is just an oversized demon.

[@Esteban-nk3nm]

Changing things is very chaotic, but the sex offenders from Slannesh or chaotic, along with Khornes murderers. I don't see Nurgle as chaotic, as death is a natural thing, but I guess disease? Even though disease stem from literal micro-organisms, and are likewise natural. You can change someone, you can kill someone, you can drug or torture someone, these are all chaotic actions that parallel human desires and why we have laws and order to prevent such things, by you can't disease someone🤔. This just made me question why Nurgle exist

[@Capoodle]

The best reason to worship Tzeentch is so that when you lose you can just go "my goals are beyond your understanding". Also he has the best aesthetic of the Big Four in 40K.

[@PathiosProductions]

Tzeentch coudl claim any and all things as part of the grand plan. “I forgot my keys at work” and Tzeentch be like “THAT WAS MY PLAN”

[@e.richens3736]

I love tzeentch precisely because of of his fuckery, because he feels like the god the most embodies actual CHAOS, while the others mostly feel like the gods of "bad things" or "being evil". As other comments have said, the appeal of serving Tzeentch is the appeal of gambling, "Yeah I know statistically more people lose than win, but that would never be *me* who loses". Its people ignorant of the danger deal they are making falling victim to their own hubris. The other thing compelling about tzeentch is that because his power is granted so randomly, it very much has the appeal of a Get Rich Quick scheme. Like Tzeentch doesnt give you a tally of 10,000 skulls to claim before you get given noteworthy power, you could just get lucky and he decides greg the garlic farmer would make a great demon if I threw a bit of magic power at him (and maybe make him insane too, oops). Giving him a guaranteed "I wont screw with you if you obey these rules" kinda kills the point of tzeentch, it makes him predictable, placatable, no longer a risk. I think ultimately thats the worst thing you can do fir him. He isnt for everyone certainly, but he is for some.

[@SK-yx7hm]

Tzeench: Do I really look like a guy with a plan? Im a dog chasing cars.

[@Renarin-K]

Tzeentch seems to me to be the embodiment of *chaos* itself. Sure, doing pleasurable stuff, killing things, and spreading disease can lead to chaos, but randomness, disorder, and unpredictability really seem to be part and parcel of Tzeentch's schtick moreso than the others. And if you are asking for rules, it seems you are inherently asking for some degree of order, which is kind of antithetical to chaos, no?

[@saltsaltius9831]

“I will not serve you tzeech” “It is Opposite Day” “Damn good point”

[@JonnyDoey]

5:19 I assume Tzeentch provides a false illusion of apotheosis

[@coolhistory2710]

If i would have to choose chaos i would want to not to feel the pain of living in Warhammer, so Papa Nurgel here i come

[@biobuilder4366]

I've often had the thought that if I was in the 40k universe I'd probably end up pledging myself to Tzeentch since with him being the god of change maybe he'd give me powers to help me transition or something. it's more likely I'll end up getting mutated into a bird monster, sure, but that's a better chance than I'd probably have as the average imperial citizen slaving away in a hive city

[@JamesPolymer]

A pretty good story featuring a Tzeentch follower is "The Method of Madness" by Peter McLean, which can be found in the _Warcry: The Anthology_ compilation. (The protagonist technically never dedicates himself to Tzeentch, but he _definitely_ operates in ways that would curry his favor.) The story follows a Cypher Lord named Vignus who specializes in poisons and alchemy, and maintains a retinue of chemically-enhanced bodyguards/assassins to do any actual fighting. While he doesn't stab his "colleagues" in the back, it's mostly because they're all entirely dependent on him to survive (the process that produced his guards requires them to regularly consume medicine only _he_ knows how to make or they'll die). Vignus' warband infiltrates the city of Carngrad in the Eightpoints, and seeks to manipulate the regional Chaos lord by getting him addicted to a powerful hallucinogen he invented. He's a scheming, manipulative little sh!t, and the only thing keeping the reader from *hating his guts* is that his opponents are all zealous Chaos followers themselves.

[@patrickiamonfire965]

I saw the primarch video of astarte anonymous podcast and I do agree with you but you have to admit Magnus has red silky hair.

[@joshhaynes8159]

The other chaos gods are easier to define and portray, it's always simpler to write rage, hedonism, or corruption compared to schemes. Writers in every medium suffer with showing as opposed to just telling you that a character is intelligent, so inevitably many fall back on "haha you think you've won but this was actually my plan all along!". Like you mentioned it's the same thing with the Alpha Legion, and I think the portrayal of both them and Tzeentch gets reduced to memes because what they COULD be on paper is so rarely well executed. I heavily agree that they need to more clearly define what Tzeentch followers/demons do to stay in the Changer's good graces, as the idea of random backstabs just because "it's funny" never really fit to me outside of a few instances of curbing a different follower's ambition. I think planning and scheming should be Tzeentch's preferred form of worship, so long as you are doing so and not getting too full of yourself, you get an eldritch thumbs-up. Fate and future-sight are also harder to tackle conceptually, and I think Tzeentch needs to be portrayed as actually WANTING to be surprised when someone breaks free of the path he foresees for them, rather than going "Doesn't matter, they'll loop back around eventually" (*cough* Ahriman *cough). After all, he threw Kairos into the well of knowledge BECAUSE he wasn't omnipotent, so they need to stop portraying him as near-omnipotent. Remembering that plans and destinies can CHANGE and stopping the whole "I knew everything all along" schtick would go a long way in my opinion. There's a lot of room for a portrayal that has waaaaaay more depth than the other chaos gods, but the execution so far hasn't shown it. Once more GW needs to have a concrete rule on certain things that all writers can refer to or they'll keep making asshole birds, which in my opinion quickly lose their charm if that's all they're allowed to be.

[@ashenreaper1668]

7:46 I do it for the memes. Also, no other Chaos God is likely to reward you for attempting to overthrow them. Tzeench gang rules. If his followers last too long then there won't be enough change within their ranks.

[@anticlaassic]

I was litterally about to weite the same thing!

[@aarond1622]

"Whaaaah, whaaaaaah, whaaaaaah. I hate Tzeentch!" T-boy: 'Just as planned, my foolish servant.'

[@ivaneeh4211]

I disagree. You see, Tzeentch is not only giving you magic, he is giving you - Knowledge! Everyone of us daydreamed about having superpowers or being "blessed" by one of the chaos gods. And my nerdream was always: knowing everything! reading minds and thoughts! Knowing the Library of Alexandria by heart, knowing every conspiracy there ever was! Tzeentch can give you that. And what is having some trouble with you fellow cultists compared to that amount of knowledge!

[@EnigmaMachine94]

Aha, but what if Tzeentch WANTS you to think he’s the worst god? 👀

[@hakimmacpat1225]

You are wishing the most "chaotic" representative of chaos to be... Well less chaotic and more predictable. Which kind of defeats the purpose doncha think? Every chaos god will screw you over at some point and it's inevitable. I think most people genuinely would love to follow a god like tzeentch are people who love to gamble, who genuinely loves the backstabbing part and not only the magic part itself. To give a real life comparison, why would anyone want to work in a corporate ladder when all of its just lots backstabbing, stress and ego centric arseholes going rampant... Well because some people reeallly love all of that. It's all part of the game and Tzeentch loves the game

[@Coleman2017]

Tzeench low key chill until he thinks something is funny then he ain't.

[@Awakeandalive1]

Sorry, maybe it's because I'm an academic, but Khorne is rubbish and Tzeentch rules. I love knowledge, I love moon-logic point-and-click adventure games, I literally wrote my doctoral dissertation on ancient magic and my brother once said I was one bad day away from becoming the protagonist (or antagonist) of a Lovecraft story. Tzeentch just makes sense.

[@VultureXV]

Help me design some esoteric alchemy-inspired tattoos

[@Weberkooks]

"Slaanesh just wants you to have a good time." yeah...this is one hell of an artistic liberty