Why Didn't Saruman Kill Gandalf In Isengard? | Lord of the Rings Lore

[@johnmooers5594]

Saruman would have known that physically killing Gandalf would just disincarnate him. His spirit would return to Valinor and spill the beans about what he was doing and how Saruman had become a tool of Sauron. Keeping Gandalf prisoner would have given him a bargaining chip in dealing with Sauron.

[@melmartinez7002]

This is pretty much what I was about to write before even watching the video.

[@hehhehheh4588]

Direct and correct.

[@badbirb5698]

Tactically, probably this as well as his self-image of being the 'good guy'. Capturing him is the only answer for Saruman's path.

[@meerkat4292]

@@melmartinez7002 same

[@mikealexander1935]

And that is what happened in a way. Gandalf did die, return to Valinor with the knowledge of Saruman's fall and return far more powerful.

[@Locedamius]

To be fair to Saruman, his assessment of the hopelessness of the situation was quite correct. Sauron had become too powerful to be defeated by strength of arms, we see proof of that later in the Battle of the Black Gate. The only ways to defeat him was to either use the ring against him or to destroy the ring. Saruman has studied the lore of the rings of power like no other except Sauron himself. He probably realized (correctly) that no being in Middle Earth would have the willpower and the ability to destroy the ring. That leaves only one option for him to fulfill his mission: find the One Ring and use it to defeat Sauron, which is exactly the path he ultimately pursued.

[@caos1925]

does seem Saruman should have had more faith in Eru that things would work out, he did tell all the Aniur, tho I can't find the exact quote 'anything anyone does will eventually only lead to the fulfillment of his will'

[@alexiachimciuc3199]

Saruman the saint! Also Saruman: tonight you will taste men flesh!

[@regulator062]

You make a good point but I think you're being a little too fair here. Considering Saruman was a loremaster of the Dark Arts he should have realized as Gandalf did that using the ring was folly, he would become the very thing he swore to destroy. This started happening to Saruman while not even obtaining the ring. The only option was to destroy the ring as unlikely an occurrence as it was. While destroying Sauron may have been the mission Saruman was sent for, the sprit of this mission was in order to provide peace and remove evil, neither of which Saruman was accomplishing.

[@JohnPeacekeeper]

Reminder that Sauron himself was much like Saruman. At the start, all Sauton desired was to bring order to a chaotic world, and he decided that dominion and control was the way to achieve that. But over time, the corruption of power, especially power from Morgoth, turned his desire for dominion to be at the forefront rather than as a means to the order he desired.

[@Raz.C]

@@caos1925 I suspect you're thinking of Iluvatar telling Melkor that whatever discord he tries to raise against the music of the Ainur, will only rebound to fulfil Eru's designs, since the source of Melkor is Iluvatar. If so, that's part of the Ainulindale, usually printed as part of the Silmarillion.

[@robertcoplin2830]

The Treason of Isengard

[@valkeditz31]

“It is treason…then”

[@dwf-dopey9053]

Treason it is

[@noeraldinkabam]

Yes!

[@mariojovancevic4184]

Yeees!!!

[@suebristow5194]

Yes I would like to see a comparison video between book and movie. Love the channel

[@bongosock]

I tend to think it's more likely that Saruman - being also an istari himself - knew that killing Gandalf would return him to the Valar; who, in turn, would just send him back. The surest way to take Gandalf out of the fight, then, was to imprison him.

[@blakewinter1657]

One major reason was that he believed Gandalf knew where the One Ring was, and wanted him to reveal it, which would be hard if Gandalf were dead

[@brucetucker4847]

There were other factors, but I think that was the main reason by far. Saruman didn;t want to join Sauron, he wanted to supplant him. Pretending to be loyal to Sauron was just keeping his options open in case Sauron got the Ring first. He knew Sauron was looking for it and in fact in Unfinished Tales we learn that he deliberately misdirected the Nazgul in their search - but certainly not out of any kindness or loyalty to the White Council!

[@DamonNomad82]

I've always thought Saruman sparing Gandalf's life, at least for the time being, was due to two factors. The first is that Saruman may have hoped that he could gradually break down Gandalf's resistance to the point that the Grey Wizard would eventually come around and join Saruman after all. The second was due to the fact that Saruman had been terribly jealous of Gandalf for a long time. He would have wanted Gandalf to see and know beyond any doubt or argument that Saruman had utterly beaten him and been right all along.

[@brucetucker4847]

I hadn't thought of the latter, and it's a very good point. I'm sure that was a significant factor. Somewhat like Morgoth keeping Hurin around and making him watch the tragedy of his children unfold.

[@danshaw1096]

I agree with the points you've made, but there is one more factor that I think is worth considering: Narya. "For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill." I doubt Gandalf's ring would have been enough to reverse Saruman's corruption, but it's mere presence might have slowed it to a degree, and reminded the white wizard of the spirit of his oath, for a time

[@The-Dom]

"One ring to rule them all" Gandalf's ring would have succommed.

[@TheBlessingBabes]

He could only exercise his control over the other rings when he was in direct possession of the one ring.

[@brianh9358]

My guess is he thought that eventually through influence he could change Gandalf's mind. He always thought that his skills at persuasion would prevail. He also needed him as an ally against Sauron in the future. If he was able to obtain the ring, and with Gandalf as an ally, he might be able to prevail against Sauron.

[@averongodoffire8098]

And even without the ring, the two together would be more likely to hold Sauron at bay in his weakened state and with time Saruman probably hoped to whittle him down till they could effectively capture him

[@damalman8223]

He was also super conflicted. He ran up to join Gandalf and repent or at least wanted to talk about it, but when he got to the top of the tower, Gandalf was getting flown off in the distance with the eagle.

[@TheEvertw]

I believe that Saruman considered himself a logical thinker, and thought that everyone who thought logically would come to the conclusion that there is no other path than that of using the Ring for themselves. He expected Gandalf to come to the same conclusion and that together they would have a chance that betray and conquer Sauron.

[@paulnorton2885]

In the books, when Gandalf reports on his captivity in Isengard at the Council of Elrond, he does not mention any kind of struggle (physical or magical) between himself and Saruman. For one Maia to assault another would be considered by the Valar to be a grave transgression, especially when the Maiar concerned were both on a mission from the Valar. Both Gandalf and Saruman would have been conscious of this, and this would have led both of them to observe some restraint while Gandalf was in Orthanc.

[@clarencejeffcoat5441]

Sauruman changed to many colors when he broke away from his mission. White light shows the many colors when it is broken as well.

[@aaronboyce6743]

I think that fact that he didnt kill Gandalf when he really did have the chance to goes to proves he wouldnt ever have killed the blue Wizards as somtimes theorised. I think he also felt he was far to powerful for Gandalf to make a difference.

[@jangolub8240]

I dont think so. They were all their own beings, we cant know what happened and what would profit saruman

[@brucetucker4847]

@@FastDuDeJiunn I don't think ANYONE knew that he could come back the way he did. That was the direct intervention of Eru. Saruman had probably decided, like Sauron, that the Valar had lost all interest in Middle-earth and wouldn't be sending any further assistance.

[@paulszymanski2513]

Sarumon knew he couldnt really kill him. He might have not known he would come back more powerful. He did know he could come back though. Why would you basically free an enemy instead of keeping him prisoner? Everything else is plot armor.

[@brucetucker4847]

@@paulszymanski2513 He didn't "basically free" him, Gandalf couldn't fly. Even Gandalf didn't know the eagle would show up. And as I and many people point out, the real reason was that he was absolutely desperate to get his hands on the Ring and even the slightest chance that Gandalf might let something slip that would help with that made it worth keeping him around.

[@rymic72]

@@brucetucker4847 Saruman and Gandalf were both sent to middle earth precisely because the Valar hadn’t forgotten about middle earth. They both knew that.

[@agentcooper6361]

I figure it was one (or maybe all) of three reasons. Saruman may have thought he had a chance, slim though it might be, of eventually turning Gandalf to his side. Saruman may also have thought, if Gandalf wouldn't switch sides, that he was valuable alive as a bargaining chip or prize for his new lord, Sauron. It is also possible that Saruman simply didn't have the capabilty to destroy Gandalf, a fellow Mair, even if he wanted to. I imagine it's not that easy or simple to extinguish such a being.

[@stephenorourke7005]

IMO... CORRECT!! Plus the Elvin ring!!

[@David.Bowman.]

Saruman lays it out plainly , retold by Gandalf at the Council of Elrond- “Until you reveal to me where the One may be found. I may find means to persuade you. Or until it is found in your despite, and the Ruler has time to turn to lighter matters: to devise, say, a fitting reward for the hindrance and insolence of Gandalf the Grey”.

[@jeffbriem]

What would it mean to kill the body of a Maia? Wouldn’t that cause a serious risk of retaliation from the Valar against Saruman?

[@stephensmith3111]

Yes, I imagine that Manwe and even Aule would not be at all happy about that. Even as was, after the Scouring of the Shire: To the dismay of those who stood by, about the body of Sauruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.

[@goodlight4113]

@@stephensmith3111 See, this is something that always bugged me. How fair is it to render the spirit of Saruman so low, when it's not clear they even remember what they are, or any details about the Valar when they acted. Imagine, you have half your memories taken away, you do some bad stuff, ok you should be punished, but then your memories come back....uhh, life time/ infinite punishment seems harsh when the person was impaired.

[@FEARSWTOR]

It's pretty clear the Valar don't really care about lesser beings. If they did, Tulkas would have just come down and killed Sauron. It would be effortless for him to do so and no one else would need to suffer.

[@jennyc3919]

So if you lose your memories and then murder hundreds or thousands of people, it’s not as immoral because you have amnesia? Nah, I think mass murder is equally bad no matter how much memory loss you have

[@jeffbriem]

@@FEARSWTOR The Valar were afraid to mess with the fates of the children of iluvarar because they did not fully understand his will regarding their purpose. It was the same reason they didn’t act against Numenoreans who came to the shores of Valinor. Iluvatar himself intervened. It’s not that they did not care, it’s that they feared direct intervention. Last time they showed up to fight half of middle earth fell into the sea.

[@awgates85]

Sauruman's fall seems to mirror Sauron's. Both wanted to order the world, both seemed to think they could get this accomplished by outwiting an evil of greater stature for the power they needed, and both started as servants of Aule. I wonder if Sauron had a peer he was jealous of that helped push him towards darkness as well.

[@lux.s.cannabis]

Lmao that was gandoff

[@paulkirby2761]

When Gandalf the grey died he came back as Gandalf the white, a more powerful wizard most likely on equal terms with Saruman. Perhaps this is an inevitable transition Saruman was aware of and therefore was never going to kill Gandalf the grey since he knew Gandalf would return as a more powerful wizard strong enough to potentially defeat him? So Saruman simply kept Gandalf the grey alive as his prisoner along with the potential long term goal of breaking Gandalf and taking control of him just like he took control of Theoden.

[@billbrown9271]

The Treason Of Isengard ! Definitely an interesting duel between old friends, I wonder what emotions were there for both wizards

[@rafexrafexowski4754]

Saruman was a bit envious of Gandalf from the beginning, so they were definitely not very good friends. However they were friends and respected each other nontheless.

[@Makkaru112]

Here's why. He never served Sauron nor bent to him at all in the books. The Gandalf locked in the Tower bit is explained ONLY in the Unfinished Tales Book: In [manuscript-C) The Black Riders arrived at the Gate of Isengard while Gandalf was still a prisoner in the tower. In this account, Saruman, in fear & despair, & perceiving the full horror of service to Mordor, resolved suddenly to yield to Gandalf, & to beg for his pardon & help. Temporizing at the Gate, he admitted that he had Gandalf within, & said that he would go & try to discover what he knew; if that were unavailing, he would deliver Gandalf up to them. Then Saruman hastened to the summit of Orthanc - & found Gandalf gone. Away south against the setting moon he saw a great Eagle flying towards Edoras. See, the thing is he was always master of studying the enemy & even being able to think like they do to always know exactly the best ways to handle ever situation and so on, but the thing is he didn't just become the enemy, he at this time in a sense for once actually grew afraid of him, probably Sauron did what Sauron did with Finrod Felagund(Galadriel’s elder brother who by the way was the most important in the Legendarium & is the main reason the third age even exists) which basically widdled Saruman with various visions of the past and future until it wore him down, but Saruman(Curumo) was the mostly already becoming weary due to what was called The along Defeat, magic bleeding out from the lands of middle earth and subsequently certain things become less and less possible and the elves begin to go west. Even the ones who never wished to leave middle earth and many of which were born here by the thousands. So him also being a student and helper of Aulë of the Valar he was going to fight fire with fire and make a bid for the ring just so Sauron could never regain full power and if Saruman found a way to release himself from his power restrictions even by any small margin or worked with Eru in some way it might have worked out in the end if things went differently enough to where such action from him would be needed. Ontop of that he was growing ever jealous of Gandalf for he received the Varya from Círdan and prior to that was chosen by the other Valar, Nienna’s chosen champion to go to middle earth. But Gandalf(Olórin back then) refused over and over and exclaimed his fear of Sauron(Mairon), varya I feel would have kindle the heart of Saruman to stay strong as he had been fighting the evils of the world for a very long time since he had been sent to Middle Earth.

[@davidbofinger]

When Gandalf was actually killed the Valar sent him back. Perhaps they even took his report before they did so. Might Saruman have anticipated this happening if he killed Gandalf, or at least that there was a chance of it? Because having Gandalf report to the Valar that Saruman murdered him, then come back in some unpredictable location, then tell everyone in Middle Earth that Saruman was evil, would be a lot worse for Saruman than having Gandalf locked up incommunicado.

[@ieuanhunt552]

So many reasons. One of the big ones is that he still thought he could convince Gandalf to join him. He would need all the allies he could get to challenge Sauron. He was also very knowledgeable in Ringlore and no doubt suspected that Gandalf wore Narya. Getting that from him would be useful and probably a lot more difficult if he were dead.

[@ChromiumFist]

I believe it is because he knew that if Gandalf was killed he’d likely return with a power up as he did after fighting the Balrog.

[@brucetucker4847]

You mentioned the key point, but I think by focusing on the movies you miss its significance. Gandalf knew where the Ring was, and Saruman realized this. That information was so absolutely vital to Saruman's plans that even the slightest hope, however unlikely, of getting it out of Gandalf was worth keeping Gandalf around. In the book, Saruman is NOT Sauron's servant and his downward spiral began long before he was caught by Sauron in the palantir, that only completed his corruption and forced him the pretend to be loyal to Sauron. But his intention was never to throw in with Sauron if he could get the Ring, that was only his plan B if Sauron got the Ring first. He knew (as Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel did) that the free peoples on their own had no hope of beating Sauron militarily, but like Sauron, he couldn't imagine that anyone would throw away as valuable a tool as the Ring, so the choice was whether he, Saruman, would get it, or Sauron would, or some lesser leader of the free peoples (he suspected Gandalf of planning this) who in his view, would not be capable of beating Sauron. But if Saruman had the Ring, he thought he had every hope of beating Sauron using its power, especially if he had Gandalf on his side. I think the real question is why he didn't try to torture Gandalf into disclosing the Ring's whereabouts, and I think it was because he knew Gandalf well enough to know that it would never work.

[@alexpaga98]

That’s not really true.Even in the books Saruman becomes a servant of Sauron, it is precisely stated many times, even in Unfinishes tales where it’s described the effect of the palantir on Saruman. After the use of the stone indeed, Saruman desired Sauron’s victory or no longer opposed it. Frodo also says to Sam at the end of the story that Saruman was doing Mordor’s work even while he thought to be indipendent. That said it’s true that Sauron wasn’t able to seduce Saruman 100% and his plan to get the ring for himself remained and tried to betray his new master when he got the chance. But it is not correct to say that Saruman was indipendent. After the use of the palantir he has been seduced and even threatened by Sauron and became his servant. He essentially became a tool of Sauron without even realizing it.

[@richardwild76]

Two reasons I can think of for not killing Gandalf: 1. Saruman may not actually have had the strength. We saw that it took a climactic battle with a balrog to do Gandalf in; Saruman himself may not have been able to do it. 2. Gandalf knew where the Ring is. Although Saruman was prepared to hunt for it by himself, it made sense to keep Gandalf alive in case a means could be found to compel him to divulge its whereabouts.

[@judsongordy8872]

I always thought that Saruman didn't gill Gandalf because he thought the Valar would just bring him back, so it would make more sense to just keep him prisoner.

[@scruffythejanitor1969]

Sauron studied the enemies strength and had become frightened, overawed and ultimately corrupted. Gandalf studied the weak mortals men and discovered simplicity, strength and thus endured.

[@jonahdirrim8379]

I think its also likely that Saruman realized that the killing of an Istari would have some serious repercussions from the Vala and may have even caused them to come to Middle Earth and wage another war on the scale of the War of Wrath. Its also likely that he planned to keep Gandalf and torture him to extract any information he might have about the ring and its whereabouts.

[@brucetucker4847]

The former wasn't going to happen, that's why they sent the Istari. The latter is the real key. Getting the Ring was Saruman's absolute priority and ANY chance of getting Gandalf to aid him in doing so was worth pursuing.

[@bandcookie88]

@@brucetucker4847 A massed force of un-restricted miar though?

[@brucetucker4847]

@@bandcookie88 They weren't going to do that either. That's what they did to deal with Morgoth and it caused a massive disaster, all of Beleriand was shattered and sank beneath the ocean. That's why they sent the Istari the way they did.

[@michaelfisher7170]

New vid in the morning! Love it! Treason of Isengard please....it'd make a good episode.

[@TheBrokenSword]

On it!😁

[@paragonmind2198]

I think the reason why he didn't kill gandalf is because he couldn't. The wizards have a deep inner knowing of life and death. He knew that if he killed gandalf he would just come back. When he died fighting the balrog he just came back.

[@primal1233]

Your videos are always educational, thanks for another great video

[@TheBrokenSword]

Glad you like them!😁

[@Brandon-a-writer]

Thank you! It means a lot to us all!

[@V4N6U4RD]

Saruman keep Gandalf alive? Is this really a question? Saruman knew any Ainur that "dies" is just judged by Mandos (& influenced by their benefactor, in the case of Gandalf the judge is ultimately Manwe) and would reveal Saruman's betrayal to Aule ..." Killing Gandalf The Gray" only has 1 conclusion, Valinor sends a new emissary: That's where Gandalf the White came from. From the books: Saruman knew that Radagast, Alatar, and Pallando were too distracted to be of any concern, and he wouldn't risk killing Gandalf From the movies: Saruman needed to keep the white council focused on Mordor to ignore the Treason of Isengard, the smarter move is just make Gandalf breakdance against his will 7:45 ~ Cred: Pitch Meeting

[@Brandon-a-writer]

Gandalf was taken out for a long period of time even dying in the manner befitting a Maiar. The point, of course, is that to deprive the fellowship so early of its would be leader might have altered the ultimate path that culminated in victory, without Gandalf's counsel, his wisdom and his strength, regardless of what took place in between the death and resurrection -- which we must assume -- the fellowship would be in disarray, the team would be divided along idealogical lines in such a fashion they would lack the cohesion necessary to form the guardianship around the ring. Shortly after Gandalf falls in Moria, how long before the fellowship breaks at Amon Hen? What does Frodo see at the high seat of seeing, but a world infected by war, and the machinery of industry and tyranny churning up the lands? He might not permanently "kill him", but if it's a pointless endeavor, they sure have a lot of stock in what they plan for Sauron ... as they must have believed in their mission when Gil-Galad and Elendil prepared to prosecute the war of the last alliance while they debated strategy atop Amon Sul. If it was such a dismissive notion to kill a Maia, the characters' actions within the story seem to reflect an entirely different perspective. Gandalf, as Tolkien wrote in his letters, was incarnate, like an angelos, the Greek work for messenger that comes from the Hebrew Melekh, he is incarnate and thus prone to all the frailties and foibles that flesh is heir to, the creaky joints, the weariness and tendency to grief, to love, to doubt -- he is not a Maia unrestrained; he is a Maia within a softer shell, like a Fire flavored M&M which is of course Grey at first, then after cancellation comes back as a more powerful, more fiery white M&M. Sorry, as the writer/researcher here for TBS, I had to defend my honor by making a fool of myself. It is the only way.

[@V4N6U4RD]

@@Brandon-a-writer I was once like you, so invested in the lore of LOTR I had to be a Gatekeeper, proving my "worth" in the eyes of other Tolkien fans and oblivious that I was creating the conditions needed for the corporations to bend Arda to their will and claim the Ring of Power. Keep your gate...Amazon bought the Castle

[@Brandon-a-writer]

@@V4N6U4RD i was the writer for this video, not trying to gatekeep or prove worth, only explaining what i thought someone who was without info and honestly seeking it would like to know. if you know these things, and are only being facetious, then what vanity are you to accuse me of for being honest and good natured in my response man? i am the writer of all these vids, i don't need to prove my worth to you. this is how i make a living, but please, go ahead and tell me how you were once like me, someone who includes in almost every video which states an opinion, 'we need not agree, and we can disagree without being disagreeable'. If the fandom is full of people who are so affronted by the script writer, on a video you commented upon, attempting to answer you. I am not in competition with anyone, it is of no importance to me. If you didn't want to answer, or if you knew, why answer? Because you do what you accuse, to prove your worth when you are so utterly shown to be in contrast foolish, you had no recourse to actually answer, and so this dance you do. I have written every video that we have scripted since 16 october, writing 3 a week, so sure man, i'm not just a student of tolkien who wanted to answer someone who i thought acted in good faith. get a grip on yourself man, you are among the brohirrim, and the steward of the Brohirrim will not be so repudiated among his kin. Enjoy my videos and continued success as the sole writer for the 4th largest LoTR channel on KZbin. That's what i'd say if I wanted to be a dick. Since I don't, just play nice and nobody will need to instruct you further.

[@V4N6U4RD]

@@Brandon-a-writer Your time seems valuable, so I will keep this short. I'm NOT criticizing "you" The title of your video included a question: "Why didn't Saruman Kill Gandalf...?" Your channel "asked" a question, so I'm allowed to attempt an answer, with information that wasn't included in the video. Should have been, but wasn't. You can: + Update your video ...or + Make Another Video ...or + Gatekeep You decide

[@Fatmanstan606]

Love all the book/movie compare/contrast content, serve it up my bro (please)

[@Crash103179]

The real question is: Gandalf had been in and out of Orthanc several times while Saruman was building his army. Why did he never see, hear or smell the orcs? Were they kept at a distance? If so, what of the warrens under the tower? Was there an illusion spell to baffle even a wizard? Melian cast her girdle, but she was full Maia. Magic in Middle Earth is usually far more subtle. Any thoughts?

[@josephfisher426]

The only good answer is that Saruman had been overvaluing his privacy for the entire time that he built the Orc army, and Gandalf had not had a chance to snoop around enough. It is certainly underexplained.

[@FH-cn3mg]

I think this is actually a major plot hole after a reread recently. Treebeard says that the changes have been happening for a while and that Saruman has been growing his army and felling trees enough to cause the Ents a long standing issue. Gandalf goes to Isengard to consult with Saruman more than once, and he sees nothing, but the descriptions of what Saruman was doing in Isengard made it clear that he had been doing years worth of work in preparing and still was nowhere near the strength of Barad Dur. So Gandalf was either too preoccupied to care or he Saruman had the orcs hidden away and just men around Isengard when Galdalf was coming for a visit.

[@xshayahyawzi3666]

I believe he wanted to break the will of gandalf, so that he would reveal whatever he knew, including the location of the ring and identity of the bearer. Note: I haven't watched the video yet, this is what i have always believed.

[@rafexrafexowski4754]

I'm not sure which History of Middle-earth this is from, but I remember that Saruman had a moment of wanting to reconcile with Gandalf, but when he realised he had escaped, he decided against it.

[@xshayahyawzi3666]

@@rafexrafexowski4754 what i think is that Saruman considered himself far above all other istari but was also secretly jelous of Gandalf. Maybe because somewhere he did percieve Gandalf's wisdom. So, he thought about this reconcilation. But after the escape he knew Gandalf will now never trust him

[@spartymatt9627]

Great video! I never thought of Saruman's motivation that way, thats incredible!

[@davidannderson9796]

I think that there are two likely explanations that spring immediately to mind as to why Saruman did not kill Gandalf. One is that perhaps Saruman simply was not strong enough to kill Gandalf. I would imagine that a being like Gandalf, an embodied Maia, would be much harder to kill than to simply defeat and contain, and Saruman's powers were not as much in overt fighting power as those of the Balrog of Moria, but rather in intelligence and the hypnotic power of his voice. The other is that Saruman, who is very learned and smart, probably knew that if he killed Gandalf's body Gandalf would simply be reborn into a new body- possibly one no longer imprisoned in the tower- and that he suspected that it was possible that Gandalf would, as he did, come back even more powerful than before. Just as Gandalf indeed was later on in the story. Saruman probably knew that even if he had enough power to kill Gandalf, that he would simply come back to life, and possibly even more powerful- and that killing Gandalf was simply not an option. Sauron himself, if he was controlling Saruman that deeply and directly, probably knew this as well, as Sauron was certainly very learned and probably suspected that the wizards were embodied Maiar, and thus Sauron probably did not want to pressure and deceive Saruman into killing Gandalf but rather into imprisoning him instead. As for whether there was some good still in Saruman holding him back- who knows? Who knows the mind of Saruman at that point?

[@tomeus1410]

I think I read somewhere in the books or in the silmarilion that the wizards arrived in Middle earth with a distant dream-like memory of Valinor and could only vaguely remember who they were before they started their mission. As Saruman strayed from his mission, he gradually forgot about who he was and where he was from. The same applies for other wizards who did not stay true to their path, like radagast in a way, who had bigger priorities than his mission. So as Saruman was now evil, I don’t understand how he could remember that Gandalf was sent by the Valar and might be sent back. Also there was no precedent for a wizard dying that we know of, so he might not even have known it was possible to reincarnate Gandalf. Please correct me if I’m wrong I would hate to have found a hole in the story, even as minuscule as this.

[@Tadicuslegion78]

I just assumed it was because Saruman's hubris thought it unnecessary to kill Gandalf/Saruman knew killing a fellow Maia wasn't as easy as you think. IE, and this is just spitballing, Grima could kill Saruman only after Gandalf broke his staff aka signally Saruman lost a lot of power and made him vulnerable

[@Edward-nf4nc]

We should also remember Manwe and Eru. If Saruman killed Gandalf's body his spirit would return to Aman with the news of Saruman's betrayal and either Manwe or Eru might send someone to bring Saruman back to Aman, thus his plans would fail. Saruman knew the Valar still cared for Middle-Earth, because that was why he was sent there. Also, Eru sent Gandalf back and gave him more power and knowledge. Saruman knew killing Gandalf would cause problems with the Valar so he let him live.

[@bjsuits]

I thought Tolkien also said Saruman seriously considered seeking pardon until he found Gandalf escaped. Then he realized what would happen and went forward with his “all or nothing” plan.

[@thecappeningchannel515]

Yes. Saruman was not completely evil at that point and may not have wanted to murder Gandalf.

[@tobiasware]

The Treason of Isengard! Your ideas are really compelling. I think that Saruman, knowing the nature of the wizards (including himself) would have been in trepidation of the consequences of killing Gandalf. Nowhere in the books (to that point) did he threaten Gandalf death, only destruction - a fine line, I admit, but a significant line. Refer to John Mooers' comment below about disincarnation of a Maia and the potential recorporation of Gandalf as something more powerful. Thanks for providing excellent thought material!

[@nathaniellong4281]

The Treason of Isengard. I remember you had a video about it on the old channel, but I never watched it. I'm eager to watch it now.

[@toonsis]

Saruman knew that Gandalf knew where the ring was...dead men tell no tales. The most stupid thing Saruman could have done was kill Gandalf......could have done a better job at keeping him a prisoner...but the plot line needed Gandalf to be free.

[@Spartan-Of-Truth]

🎯

[@miaththered]

I think people forget that Saruman never stopped thinking of himself as on the side of good at least up to the shattering of his rod. He didn't murder his friend because he was a traitor, not a monster.

[@tonyhinrichs1869]

The Treason of Isengard!! Great video and artwork keep it up brothers!!!

[@delscoville]

Sarumon knew keeping Gandalf prisoner was the answer. Killing him would return him to his ethereal form of Olorin, which would mean he can return, likely in a new guise.

[@ericjbowman1708]

6:45 Saruman: "These aren't the droids you're looking for." Gandalf: "Your Jedi mind tricks don't work on me."

[@Bramicus]

Tolkien was making an important point about propaganda by showing how Sauron used the Palantiri to influence Saruman (and also, later, Denethor). People can be controlled through propaganda without lying to them (everything shown in the Palantiri was true) by choosing which facts to divulge and which to withhold, which stories to cover and which to suppress (or just not cover). This lesson is reflected in how today’s news media control the narrative.

[@Shaylok]

They were friends for far longer than they were enemies. Perhaps he hoped to sway Gandalf to his side.

[@pryzmcat]

easy answer is: he didn't kill Gandalf because he was hoping to break him and get information on the ring, either on his own..most likely, or with the eventual help of Sauron. Now Saruman says he wanted to join league with Sauron, but if he had gained the ring himself, he would have assailed Mordor.

[@andrewgray5275]

I wanted to comment before watching. In my opinion, Saruman was jealous of Gandalf. Simply killing him wouldn’t change that feeling, he wanted to break Gandalf, he wanted to watch him fall and regain his sense of superiority

[@hydroknight01]

Saruman never considered Gandalf a friend; Curomo, who admired power and strength above all, thought little and poorly of Olórin for confessing fear of Sauron to the Valar, when Manwë chose Olórin for the Istari's task. Curomo begrudged his Istari peers in-general, and his jealousy of Olóren began before they departed Valinor, when Varda spoke favourably of Olóren, saying that though Manwë had decided that Olóren would be the third Istar to depart, he was "not the third" among them, implying that he was greater, offending Curomo who was proud and had volunteered for the task.

[@jessetravis956]

He probably didn't kill him because gandalf had the knowledge of where the ring was and you can't get info from a dead man

[@alfredoreliford3329]

Too…. ⚔️🙏🏽⚔️ was Ishtari also…

[@cfgonyea]

I vote for a video explaining what could have happened if Gandalf DID join with Saruman abandoning the fellowship and mission for power

[@brucetucker4847]

Manwë chose too well for that to be a possibility.

[@djja8844]

Gandalf does consider taking the ring, and it is even offered to him, and realized that he didn't want to become a conquering tyrant. He said he "passed the test" of rejecting it, admitting that it was a test of his will to do so, and he seemed really tempted to take the ring. He turned it down only because he did not want to become the monsters that he fought against.

[@barnabusdoyle4930]

Gandalf knew where the ring was and if Saruman wanted a chance at winning again Sauron, he needed the power of that ring.

[@SailingSoWhat]

You forgot the most important thing. Saruman did not actually defeat Gandalf in the books. He imprisoned him, but that's seems more like he just shut the door so Gandalf had no way out (since orthanc is magical and the doors are indestructible). So Gandalf was trapped, but still had all his stuff and could fight back.

[@FrancisFjordCupola]

Saruman, with his persuasive voice could also have banked on turning Gandalf to his side.

[@chucutitan]

When Gandalf's Maia essence arrives in the Halls of Mandos, how long do you think would pass before the story would reach the ears of Manwë and the rest of the Vala? Would they tolerate a murdering traitor?

[@aurinator]

In addition to everything you laid out I'm not sure he could really "kill" Gandalf anyway.

[@jonaslocher5156]

the treason of isengard... love ur videos !

[@ShunyValdez]

I just realized that in your title card, the text was broken and got fixed. Neat.

[@venkelos6996]

The Treason of Isrngard! Yeah, I frequently did used to wonder why Saruman never killed Gandalf, took his Elven ring, or his staff, since Gandalf at Rivendell seemed to have both. I also wonder if any of it could have been Saruman's own knowledge of ring craft? Was there any chance that he "understood" that no one else would be willing to bring hurt to the Ring? Gandalf didn't seek power, and few other beings in Middle Earth might possess the force of will needed to contest Sauron's dominance of the One Ring. Others had it, he knew, but did he also know that it would be useless to them, and merely rest in their hands until Sauron took it, simply because they couldn't use it, couldn't destroy it, and couldn't defeat Sauron while it existed? He did know more about the affects of Sauron than others did. Strangely whiny thought; why was Saruman seemingly easier to usurp via the palantir than Denethor? I won't just sit and crap on the Steward of Gondor; I know book- and movie-Denethor are very different, but it does seem weird, too me, that the Dark Lord had to contest eith Denethor for a long time, and yes, he did eventually win, but he comparatively bested the White Wizard in spiritual discourse much more easily despite what I'd imagine the advantages Saruman would have. Why is this?

[@matheusburin]

That is because the Palantir would always obbey a rigthfull owner. Denethor had legit rigths to command the palantir, since he was from numenorian lineage and ruler of gondor. Sauron and Saruman were just casual users.

[@brucetucker4847]

In the book Saruman was never a loyal servant of Sauron - he was only pretending to be in order to keep his options open in case Sauron won. But he always intended to find the Ring himself and use it to supplant Sauron. Hence the argument between his orcs and Sauron's over what to do with the captured Hobbits. Saruman was also far more corrupt than Denethor before he ever encountered Sauron through the palantir - he had already been breeding orcs for decades at that point (the bit about spawning orcs from mud is pure movie, in all the books they breed just like people do, although this is only stated directly by Tolkien in other sources).

[@CuttinEJ]

I am not sure that Saruman had the ability to kill Gandalf. The Istari are spiritual beings, like the Valar, though of lesser degree. We are told that they took the form of old men and that they were forbidden from matching power with power. I think they were put into the form of old men and that being forbidden didn’t mean self restraint. As an example, a Balrog is the same sort of being as the Istari, and yet an unrestricted, unrestrained Balrog was only able to kill Gandalf after a long battle in which it too was killed. So, though Saruman was very powerful, he really wasn’t powerful enough to kill Gandalf. In fact, by the time of his open betrayal, he didn’t even have enough power left to restrain Gandalf for very long. His struggles with Sauron via the Palantir had clouded his mind, which is where his main power was. By this time he had been significantly weakened and didn’t really even know it yet.

[@olivertripp5412]

I'm not sure your route of some leftover morals or the idea of having Gandalf turning on his side as an ally are thoughts Saruman had. My guess: He knew Gandalf had high morale despite the state of things, that's why he hates him that much because he knows he is weaker. He knew he couldn't kill Gandalf permanently, just his body, if at all. As a Maia Gandalf would have survived and maybe would most likely have been back (like he came back as Gandalf the White...). Further on trying to kill a Maia as a Maia may have provoked a reaction from the Valar... Saruman didn't want all of that so he kept Gandalf prisoner, it was literally his only choice.

[@toddkurzbard]

I admit I've only seen the movies, but upon first viewing, after being shocked to see Saruman turn on Gandalf (I never aw it coming), I fully expected Saruman to kill him, and was further shocked when he didn't, and couldn't figure out WHY he wouldn't kill Gandalf.

[@brucetucker4847]

As long as there was even the slightest hope that Gandalf could be convinced or coerced to tell Saruman where the Ring was, he was much more valuable alive than dead. In the book it's made clear that Saruman was in no way actually loyal to Sauron and had no intention of turning over the Ring if he got it.

[@Rumple88.]

Love your vids mate keep up the good work 😊

[@TheBrokenSword]

Thank you so much 😁

[@JumpingTomato]

Yes yes! I would absolutely love a book vs movie comparison of this encounter!

[@kirbymarchbarcena]

Saruman may have laid all his cards on the table but Gandalf have all the aces

[@RockerT1000]

Well he did try to bring down a mountain on gandalf later on.

[@mm650]

What is more interesting, to me, is why did Saruman not recognize the Ring of Fire on Gandalf's finger? Gandalf could plainly see the Ring that Saruman had made on HIS finger. And we know that Thorin's Father? was captured with the last of the Dwarven rings and it was taken from him by Sauron then masquerading as a The Necromancer. Similarly, The Nazgul were able to plainly perceive the One Ring when it was directly infront of them, and Frodo to perceive their rings as well as the Rings of Galadriel. This suggests to me that the Ring Lore that Sauron apparently gave to Saruman in luring him in was incomplete or flawed... Saruman may think of himself as a "ring maker" but he wasn't really and his ring does not measure up to the three, the nine, the seven, or the One. That such minor rings were possible was itself something that Gandalf alluded to at one point.

[@robertphillips9017]

Odd question, is it clear if Saruman’s ring would be subject to the one as the three elven rings were? If so he was sadly deceived even before looking into the Palantir? Or could that binding be how Sauron bound him?

[@brucetucker4847]

I don;t think anything about Saruman's ring is ever revealed, but it was probably more akin to the lesser rings, which, as far as we know, were not capable of dominating their wearers (and thus allowing Sauron to control them) the way the greater rings were.

[@papalaz4444244]

When Gandalf came back as The White, Saruman was depowered. When Gandalf broke his staff he was left basically powerless and trapped in Orthanc.

[@frieza2013]

Well if I remember right there was a part in the book right as the Nazgûl arrived that he actually changed his mind and was about to apologize to Gandalf. But it was to late Gandalf had already escaped and he thought the free people would never forgive. him.

[@wallter2]

The Treason Of Isengard. Thanks for yet another great video!

[@CSAndrewHenry]

It is also possible that Saruman didn't kill Gandalf because he knew/suspected that that Valar would send Olorin back in a more powerful form? I have no idea what kind of "instructions" they had been given when they were sent, but he must have known that, while Gandalf's physical form is mortal, his spirit is not and so could return, just as Sauron had. Just a thought...

[@iiiDartsiii]

I always thought that if Gandalf died he would come back stronger so Saruman did not want that to happen

[@jimbombadill]

Thing is its not perfectly clear Saruman could kill Gandalf even if he wanted. But that aside i think the simple reason he didnt even try is that he knew that Gandalf knew exactly where the ring was and who had it. And as long as he didnt have his own hands on the ring Gandalf was good to keep alive. Also there are hints that he was going to give Gandalf up to Sauron and that might have been an order from Sauron directly.

[@michaelsouslin891]

I don't think Saruman knew he would become the white if he died, but instead kept him alive partially out of respect for his former friend and ally. Mostly tho I think when Gandalf told him the dark lord does not share power that Saruman knew this was true deep down. That once he ruled middle earth Saruman would just b another servant to him, but with Gandalf on his side they possibly could hav defeated the dark lord together and ruled Middle earth as they see fit. Gandalf just isn't interested in power he prefers smoking his pipe and making fireworks bc that's just the kind of guy he is.

[@VulcanLogic]

If he could be turned, he would be a powerful ally.

[@NordsternLP]

"The Treason of Isenfard" Oh yes, please!

[@docandreferreira]

Yes, I”d love to see the comparison between the book and the movie. Thanks!

[@theMightywooosh]

Hold the phone... gandalf the Gray, staff, ring, and sword killed a bulrog solo and died Saruman probably knew he could not beat him or knew it would cost him his life to kill Gandy, so the next best option was to imprison him

[@markrutledge5855]

I think you are making this too complicated. Saruman had Gandalf in a bad spot (ie. in prison) and believed Orthanc to be impregnable. He also had complete confidence in his ability to persuade people to his point of view. Time was on Saruman's side and he had no reason rush things.

[@crookedpaths6612]

He thought him a hobo stoner: “The love of the hobbits leaf has slowed your mind.”

[@de5096]

Great video! Did Gandalf over rule Aragon concerning going through Moria? Didn’t Gandalf try Aragon’s choice to go over the mountain first? Didn’t Aragon say he would go through Moria as Gandalf didn’t speak against his choice to go over the mountain even though it was nearly disastrous? And then, didn’t the fellowship begin to vote to go through Moria? Not that it mattered due to the howling wargs. That made the choice for Moria the only viable option.

[@juancarlosreyes5138]

If I recall correctly they party was arguing for and against with Boromir adamantly stating he would only go if the entire fellowship voted against him, Aragorn was against it, Legolas too I think. Gimli was for it, Gandalf took as we cannot go over the mountain it’s blocked, we cannot use the gap of Rohan Saruman controls it, we have to use the Moria route. Arguing, they leave it to Frodo to decide as the ring bearer and he chooses Moria since he trust Gandalf.

[@ggt47]

I get the impression that Saurman likes to pay with his food.

[@kraft75]

Very good content thank you 🙏🏽👍🏽

[@HomerSimpson-gr1uj]

I think he did not kill Gandalf because it would notify the valar and perhaps they would change their minds about not interfering. That Gandalf would warn the valar that Sauron was the new morgoth and Saruman his new “Sauron.”

[@Browninthadesert]

Very interesting, these kinds of videos I like

[@christianvoorhees69]

Please do a book-to-movie what's the difference! I'm waaaay too dumb to read Tolkien & I always appreciate the how-it-was vs how-it-is videos. Can't wait to learn about Feador in the future

[@barbarakey554]

About villains - to quote Robert Heinlein “Your enemy is never a villain in his own eyes. Keep this in mind; it may offer a way to make him your friend. If not, you can kill him without hate - and quickly.”

[@eKizify]

Thank you. I just went over this part in the book

[@steelblood4116]

Thanks for the great video.

[@psazani]

I think Saruman was corrupt from the start, before he even became a Wizard. He committed evil at his nearest convenience, and would have sooner if he had the chance earlier.

[@scottfitzpatrick1939]

I think that Gandalf's death after the Balrog was a demonstration. Saruman would have known he would have sent Olórin back to Valanor and at best they send him back more powerful at worst the a Valar come to middle earth themselves. I think he wanted to imprison him and try to turn him. Any other action would create disadvantage. Saruman also felt confident even if he escaped it was too late for the forces of good. He was almost right. Like Sauron he couldn't see the possibility someone could destroy the ring. It took the cooperation and love of the greatest heros of the age and even so they still almost failed.

[@iamironkanute8750]

Saruman probably let Gandalf live hoping to find the location of the ring. With which he would be able to double cross Sauron.

[@DISTurbedwaffle918]

Gandalf probably would have just been re-embidied like he was after fighting Durin's Bane, because the Valar and Eru knew his role was crucial to thw defeat of Sauron. Indeed, we probably would have just seen Gandalf the White absolutely throttle the Balrog with his more unleashed angelic might. Either that, or his more unveiled potency would have allowed them to traverse Moria unhindered, as the Orcs there were far less accustomed to such potent light than the others he faces later in the story.

[@assemblydude1]

I agree with John, Saruman may have even known (or believed) , that Gandalf might be returned as the new White Wizard to stop him.

[@fabiobiella1714]

Anyway strong and valid reasons were stated in the video! Loved it