The Lore Changes in The War of the Rohirrim Explained!

[@horurbardal6490]

One point worth mentioning that you don't touch upon is that the Appendices are written as a historical annal, penned by Frodo. The version in the appendices are therefore a brief historical summary of an oral tradition, and likely based on whatever Merry picked up from the Rohirrim, while the movie portrays itself as a part of the living oral tradition. Tolkien doesn't delve into the specifics, because it is an annal, and therefore the fleshing out of the story aren't changes, but additions. Additionally, as others have pointed out, Helm's story could not have been told from his PoV, because he dies before the end of the tale. I disagree that the film tell's Hera's tale. Eowyn is telling Hera's tale, but the film tells Helm's tale from Hera's PoV. Tolkien's Helm is a tragic character, in the sense of the Tragedy genre, and the basis of a Tragedy is that the audience can see what will happen later on as a result of the Hero's actions, but not the character themselves. By making Hera the PoV character from which we see Helm's story, the film can provide us with information that Helm is not privy to, and therefore we can see his errors as errors, which he cannot be reasonably expected to see in the moment. From Helm's perspective, the tale would be Helm having a bunch of people come to him and make demands on how he should rule, based on little to no evidence, and Helm would rightfully tell them to get stuffed, and then random bad things happen. This would have been unsatisfying, whereas us knowing that helm is making mistakes as he makes them, allow us to see his Tragic tale unfold, and makes his final realizations, and the sacrifice he makes once has had them, more impactful, not less.

[@KeiPalace]

I don't know why they didn't just pull from a literal Tolkien heroine - Haleth, as in, the people of Haleth, a woman who took over her clan when her father and twin brother had died and pulled them together to defeat the orcs and despite the fact that the Elves admired her, she would not take sanctuary with them in the First Age, but remained with her people and became friends with Finrod Felagund.

[@BlackbeardKNAC]

Because the idea is to destroy Tolkien's legacy not tell his story. They hate Tolkien and they hate his work because he was their enemy and guess what? They hate you too

[@Nagy.Patrik]

Do they have the rights for it?

[@Nagy.Patrik]

@BlackbeardKNAC oh yes, Peter Jackson and Philippa Boyens wants to destroy the legacy for sure...

[@KeiPalace]

Ah good point, this is probably from the Sil

[@danf3201]

@KeiPalace Because the same people attacking this would attack it to, if I described this as an original idea using a princess of an unknown LotR area like Dorwinion during the second age it would be a subversive girlboss attack on Tolkien's writings. For example: As the forces of the Dark Lord Sauron spill out across the land in an attempt to conquer all of Middle Earth, those realms that resist struggle against the tide. When her father and brother are killed by orcs, princess Sarah must prove herself worthy and rally her people, earn the respect of the isolantionist Kinn-Lai elves and drive back the forces of Sauron; all while remaining true to her people's culture and ways. That would get lambasted, exactly the same as War of the Rorhirrim has been, and I only added a name and different region.

[@thunderstryken]

I would have changed the ending substantially. I think Hera should have been portrayed as the "Bride of Rohan" and "untold martyr". She and Olwyn would have faced off against Wulf who would have killed Olwyn and wounded Hera, but then she deals her shield blow to him to kill him like in the film. After telling Frealof to have mercy she would have succumbed to her wounds in the end. If both her and Olwyn died, then there is really no one who directly saw her great deeds who survived, so it would explain Eowyns comment from the beginning of the film about why there are no songs of her in the old tales. I felt quite without closure when Hera and Olwyn rode off into the sunset at the end of the film. I really would have rather her and her family's story end with death and martyrdom for the sake of the defense of Rohan. Her wedding dress thing and her desire to not marry would have had so much more impact if it was explained that she desired to be wed to Rohan as its protectress, even to the death.

[@rangerofthenorth1970]

Back when the movie was announced, I actually hoped that Helm and Freoluf would be main protagonist, perhaps Freoluf even more because it would be really cool to see that epic, wild, sort of Viking reclaiming of Edoras and slaying Wulf... we got nothing of that

[@ivacho9428]

@rangerofthenorth1970 it was difficult to make Freáláf protagonist when he spent the whole Long Winter in Dunharrow where nothing of interest happened

[@ravioli90210]

@@ivacho9428 but he wasn't a woman so it'd be fine, you see.

[@Liberater4589]

thought it was surprisingly good and enjoyed it from beginning to end, and didn't mind most of the changes because I fundamentally don't agree with the criticism that it was unfaithful or deviated too much because I think it fundamentally misunderstands the whole lotr series because Tolkien clearly and repeatedly overtly stated his writings were not an end all be all gospel and he would constantly change things in stories and histories so expanding a relatively small story that still has the core elements of the tale but adding onto it to make it a more emotional and personal story even if it reframes some things and puts more emphasis on other things than the original story had I still think its faithful to the spirit of the series and I just don't think judging not just this movie but any other lotr adaption based on how 1:1 accurate it is to the original is the right way to look at it

[@_RiseAgainst]

Not an anime fan, but the shoehorning of Gandalf was the only thing that bothered me. Thats probably more Rings of power's fault.

[@jamesfraser6491]

wasnt really shoehorned thought it was placed in strategically given that gandalf had been in middle earth for quite a while by this point everyone would have heard of him

[@_RiseAgainst]

@jamesfraser6491 all she knows was they were collecting rings. Gandalf already knew this based on the wording of the meeting request. Seems pretty weak. Like a person who would need a shoehorn!

[@jamesfraser6491]

@_RiseAgainst i understand that but she doesn't know that gandalf already knows so she believes she is handing him vital information, the wording of the meeting request could mean that he knows they are looking for the one ring not that he knew they were gathering rings up or to what extent they have done so, she could provide information on the scope of the orcs raids looking for rings how far into the rest of middle earth they have gotten as it doesn't seem like they have gotten past rohans borders yet which means gandalf etc can form a plan to stop them

[@_RiseAgainst]

@jamesfraser6491 One shoehorn to ruin them all

[@Liberater4589]

made me goran a bit but a. it was at the very end and b. its just a bit of fan service which im sure made some people grin so I don't really care

[@3gnomes1bigcoat39]

I like that we have Eowyn narrating the story. For me, it makes all of the changes more believable because it is a story she is embellishing for her audience, and from how she remembers it being told to her as a child. Maybe Hera's story was told to her by her mother and inspired her to become the woman we see in lotr.

[@zmsays]

@@3gnomes1bigcoat39 if they had given some screen/narrative time to establish "hey we're gonna embellish our [shield maiden] exploits just like the men embellish theirs," then I could 100% vibe with that--ESPECIALLY if they put some familial humor in it. Missed opportunity, IMO.

[@daltongillen643]

Tbh…. Nothing really changed. OH NO. They made a female character the main character! Gasp! Literally every thing else was basically the same, other than who killed Wulf. But that’s honestly such a trifling thing. I actually think the movie painted Helm in a better light than the two and a half pages about this story written by Tolkien did. The movie writers had more creative flexibility in making an unnamed character the story’s protagonist than they would have if they chose to make Helm or Frealaf the main character, so that’s understandably what they did. Good film, good adaptation, and I hope to see more

[@thunderstryken]

So, I am one who really likes the film overall and I really like Hera as a character but I would have certainly changed some things, especially the ending of the film. Here's a question though about the appendices: is adaptation of the appendices by nature a different beast than adapting the main story of LotR? If I understand your premise correctly, your main issue with the film is how it shifts the focus and purpose of Tolkien's story of Helm in the appendices. I need to read it in more detail now with this in mind, but how do we know what Tolkien's intent of Helm's story is? Is there information outside the appendices about this story? Do we know for sure that Tolkien even had an intent beyond background historical information in writing the appendices? This is an honest question as im trying to remember anything about this from the LotR or Unfinished Tales. I have yet to work through the Histories and Letters, and all my stuff is in storage rn so I cant check. If indeed it can be demonstrated that they diverged from the intent of Tolkien in how they adapted this story, then my opinions might change more towards your perspective. But if his story intent is ambiguous or absent altogether, I am fine with how they adapted it, though i would still make changes.

[@ghostdreamer7272]

You can’t make Helm or his sons the main character when they die a while before the resolution, and it can’t be Frealaf when he’s away and only comes to the rescue at the end. Hera isn’t a Mary Sue, she struggles and is beaten, and only picks up a sword at the very end.

[@mr.s2005]

agree, not a mary sue....but still a girl boss none the less, never is wrong, all of her plans succeed, while those who don't listen to her end up dying. Even Helm.....most of his last speech to her, I had no problem with, other than telling her she was right.....about what? she only told him what he already should have known about the dunlendings and about being the fastest rider. You doing bring up good points that the way that they set it up, there's no way the story could have stayed true to the lore by having Fealaf kill wulf, and that actually leads to the main issue with the film, the overall problem wasn't with her being the pov or even a girl boss, it was the bad writing that left too many holes in the story. but admit, still enjoyed the film as a fan fiction of Haleth from the silmarrion that was incorporated into Helm's story.

[@TiesOfZip]

She was never even named…. Until they girl bossed her. She was a non entity

[@ghostdreamer7272]

Luthien is the biggest girl boss of them all. But Hera is a girl, but not a boss.

[@ErikKemeeyKUVBBS]

@@mr.s2005 Yeah she is competent and not a damsel in distress and Helm saying she was right is basically admitting his flaw of his character

[@nathanapplegate5374]

Also wrong. Not a girl boss either. She is never portrayed as some tactical genius or master swordsman. The tactical advice often attributed to her was actually given by others, namely Fealaf advising to retreat to the hornberg. Yeah, that was Fealaf, not Herá who said that. He got disowned by Helm for it. Herá’s main roll was as a Joan of Arc in Middle Earth. Keeping hope alive, giving encouraging words of comfort and inspiring courage. Like Joan of Arc, Herá also isn’t afraid to get her hands dirty. She does get into some action. Yes, she gets captured. (This is how she discovered Thorne’s treachery) Yes, she gets rescued. When fighting Wulf, she did not beat him on her own. She needed outside help. It’s quite clear that you didn’t pay attention not pay attention to the movie.

[@zakman6471]

Loved the video and what they changed. Thank you

[@darkjesuit1]

I feel that they took a story that could’ve redeemed the franchise and just went for the safe bet by focusing on a no name female character and giving her elements that are not original. Having said all that, it could have been the most metal and epic movie of the decade by just sticking to the source material and would have redeemed the series, while also drawing in a new audience. In short, they squandered the opportunity.

[@adrienlutfalla140]

I listened with care and though i agree on most of your views, i think you are forgetting the biggest omission in the film : Where was Gondor ? In this version of the story, we can't get why it is such a thing in the LoTR (books and movies)

[@adrienlutfalla140]

I should specify that I disagree on one thing : I think it was a very good idea to choose the daughter as the main protagonist, as she was the best witness for the story. Freolaf would have been a bad choice as he wasn't there at the hornburg, and Helm and his sons died. I kind of regret that some parts are too much focused on her, but that's the usual main protagonist treatment nowadays.

[@Liberater4589]

it's only like one or two lines but this is actually answered in helm being too proud and not wanting to show weakness to gondor

[@adrienlutfalla140]

Yes, but why would Theoden accuse Gondor hundreds of years later of not showing up when Rohan was falling... if they didn't ask for help in the first place. In the book, they called for aid, and Gondor showed up late when the siege was already broken and Rohan mainly freed (if my memory is right). That could give the rohirim some resentment over the years : because Gondor showed up late, the first line of the rohirim kingship was broken

[@mr.s2005]

well, one big change to the lore for sure.......saying that Rohan is so sexist(and saying Tolkien is as well) it would change history and turn Helm's daughter into a footnote while giving the credit of the victory to a man. and turning Helm into a popsicle

[@darbyelliott2890]

Was that the same long winter that the hobbits dealt with?

[@Brianrock72]

@@darbyelliott2890 Yes it was.

[@paulbrickler]

Also the same Long Winter that Gandalf helped them through, so, he should have been a ways away from Rohan during these events, shouldn't he?

[@christianherrero8053]

Yea idt it took away from helm at all . Thought it made him more of a humanized hero . And he still remained the central character because his legend is what the enemy feared at the end

[@upschutt4842]

If we did not have RoP, we might be harsher with WotR, I guess. But since it is not as bad, we're more merciful.

[@johnqpublic407]

I was ambivalent about the movie. It was ok, mostly meh, and I'm not a lore purist. Then the shills and bots started trying to ram it down my throat, now I hate it.

[@TrappyJenkins]

I wanted to like this movie. But it felt very inconsistent. It tried to thread a line between down to earth tolkien and over the top anime, but it failed to do either well. I wish they would have leaned into one tone or the other more. The movie does make the lore feel more deep, but i dont think this hit. I hope they try again, maybe straight to streaming instead of having it be less pressure.

[@michaelking266]

So less lore changes than LOTR then 👍🏼

[@thunderstryken]

Thanks for a well thought out video.

[@mojosbigsticks]

I've got those hangings in my Guild Hall.

[@LibertarianTerriermon]

Personally I Enjoyed the film as it is I don't think it's the worst Example of The Girlboss Trope I personally Like Hera Just Fine she's just Fine not Awful not Amazing just Fine.

[@j-mc5201]

It’s just apathy now. Good on ya Hollywood 👎

[@bradphillips6643]

Also, "lost what made it legendary"!

[@maoalexandros]

War of the Rohirrim turned out to be a fanfiction like the other one we know well! Sad they never delved deep into Helm's heir, Haleth, and his second son, Háma. And future king, Fréaláf, was relegated to a guest star status. Helm's legacy as the Hammerhand was overshadowed by this unnamed daughter (I will not utter her name because linguistically, it doesn't fit the Rohirric naming system). Though I have to say, this is a better fanfiction than Amazon's take. While it did take liberties, it's still grounded in the lore (if you remove the prominence of the unnamed daughter).

[@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ]

I disagree with a lot of things said in this video and consider the movie a pretty faithful adaptation of Tolkien's lore. There are, of course, some significant changes and additions, but overall it is comparable with the PJ LotR movies. I think the idea of Helm as a "solitary figure" is completely wrong. The chapter where this story is presented is called "The House of Eorl" and is a tale of the ruling dynasty of Rohan. Helm's story started with the "private matter" of marriage proposal to Helm's daughter and continued due to Wulf wanting to revenge the death of his father. Deaths of Helm's sons are narratively important and the eventual savior of Rohan is Helm's nephew. So the story of Helm already is a "family drama" in Tolkien's writings. And it is not a modern influence by any means - such stories about complicated and often bloody relationships between families are common in Norse sagas.

[@Mythologos]

There are many more-and far, far worse-changes and additions to the live action movies. This was the most faithful of the PJ produced Tolkien films. Now everyone is a book purist.

[@reaver1414]

Girl bosses gonna girl boss

[@hansallen2708]

Can't change the lore if we reject it.

[@Martial-Mat]

Making Helm a hero is dreadful. A short tempered, violent thug whose anger cost him an empire and the lives of thousands of people. The nature of his death in no way erases all the actions that lead to it - quite the opposite; they make it clear that right up to the end, his irascibility and inflexibility lead directly to his miserable death.

[@karlsweeney2328]

It did deviate from the lore, but not in any very meaningful way. Hera was cool enough, and the movie was cool. It certainly won't be on any top 10 list of mine, but I'll probably buy it. (Is that still a thing? Owning movies?)

[@zmsays]

Sooo Modern basically means Mary Sue Girl Boss cinema? I know that's super reductive but but I keep hearing those two notions reaaalllly close together.

[@BlackbeardKNAC]

For me they have went to far this time. This story is one of my favorites in the Tolkien universe and is not to be trifled with. This woman was nothing in the grand scheme of this story, the story is about Helm Freoluf and Wulf. ALL of this trash is going to go in to the wastebin of history. No matter how hard they try, they can never erase the actual story of Tolkien. Burn it all

[@ghostdreamer7272]

You can’t make Helm or his sons the main character when they die a while before the resolution, and it can’t be Frealaf when he’s away and only comes to the rescue at the end. Hera isn’t a Mary Sue, she struggles and is beaten, and only picks up a sword at the very end.

[@Nagy.Patrik]

Did you even see it or you just like to hate on assumptions?

[@danf3201]

@@Nagy.Patrik The more I see, the more I am convinced huge chunk of at least generic comments like this are a ChatGPT using bot campaign. No specific complaints like Southron mercenaries (maybe because they aren't women?) no Rorhirrim among Wulf's forces apart from one traitorous lord despite most of Rohan bowing to him. Not even compaints about overly flashy anime fighting scenes (it IS an anime, but I can at least accept an arguement of taste) Just hatred of a woman being heavily featured (despite Helm and her brothers still featuring prominently) despite the prominence of Eowyn in the original books, if Hera is offensive Eowyn should be far far worse, but Eowyn came before they were told to despise it so she gets a pass.

[@bradphillips6643]

I would like to point out, that it attempts "to resonate with modern audiences". Attempts being the keyword. There was no resonating with me and mine... Btw, love your content brother. Please keep up the wonderful vids.

[@TiesOfZip]

What I hate about stuff like this, is they can absolutely add to the lore and find people to write new characters and stories in the world of middle earth… they own the material and they have the right to do that. And it can be done without drastically changing established lore and pissing everyone off. There was just no need for this. If they wanted a girl boss, they could have just made up their own and added to the fantasy. You’d think they would have learned this after rings of power’s massive failures.

[@ivacho9428]

They didn't change drastically the lore. Or you didn't watch the movie or you have a bias

[@leafonthewind88]

One girl boss to rule them all….

[@ianpage2509]

She had more character then Rings of Power

[@ravioli90210]

We get it, you guys don't like women leads, or this movie. You don't need to make whole videos about it. Just because you make KZbin videos about LOTR doesn't mean you guys are the authorities on the subject holy shit.

[@ianpage2509]

I don’t have a problem with women leads. It when I’m told to like badly written stuff or I’m a sexist you loose me. And who is the authority? I’ve had a lot of people claim there authority but when they have to do work or help out they disappear.

[@ravioli90210]

@@ianpage2509 I'm not telling you anything. if people call you a sexist, you might just be a sexist. I know that's a lot to think about for you, but try reflecting inwards.

[@jordanmince7613]

​@@ravioli90210so if i call you a racist you're a racist then

[@jordanmince7613]

​@@ravioli90210so if i call you racists you're racist then

[@jordanmince7613]

​@@ravioli90210then you're a racist

[@johnw1743]

Thanks for the summary. You've persuaded me. I don't like it.

[@Draconisrex1]

It was wholesale desecration. His oldest son died defending Edoras being the last man slain defending the Golden Hall. His youngest then disappeared into a blizzard with a foraging party and was never seen again. Helm died in a blizzard on a solo commando raid, his body was found the next morning and he was standing upright, frozen with his eyes open. His NEPHEW freed Rohan from the Dunlendings. His daughter was a complete non-entity and did nothing. Not even worthy of a name. Yet we get this girl boss trash.

[@deadshot5007]

Helm's death in the movie was absolutely epic and better than what you are describing. Also, the movie isn't the canon story so why do you care lol?

[@Mythologos]

No it wasn't! FotR is a million times worse than this. And this review is not entirely accurate. Within 5 minutes of FotR, in 2001, my blood was boiling, and the movie got worse and not better. This was much closer to Tolkien.

[@jamesfraser6491]

you must clearly have not watched the movie, they changed aspect to make it more entertaining in cinema, who the hell wants to see someone walk off into a blizzard to never find out what happened, also Helm did die standing in the same way he did in the book, just that he died on the slope defending the door rather than in a field. Oh and frealaf did free rohan from the dunlendings, he and his army routed them and drove them away freeing Rohan Hera just defeated the leader an army would still continue to fight even if their leader is defeated

[@danf3201]

@@jamesfraser6491 I know! do people just not watch these things before complaining or is it a bot campaign?

[@Liberater4589]

@@jamesfraser6491 this is actually one of the few points I disagree with how the movie went about things, I actually think it would have been better as a way to build up despair and hopelessness and grief if harma was there and tried to take his fathers place and save everyone but seemingly fail and not be heard from again (it could even have been a way to introduce the orcs as him being ambushed by them in the caves) but to be clear I don't think it was a bad thing for the sake of being different nor was his death bad or anything I just think there was a missed opportunity to do something more with him

[@mikecardwell6497]

They suckered us in by making us think that there was going to be more on Helm. Then changed the story to fit their agenda, as a hard core Tolkien book fan anything that varies from the books is unnecessary. There are plenty of women that do heroic things in Tolkiens writings pick one of them. STOP making things up and then try to pass it off as Tolkien. 🤬

[@sithlord.6668]

Plenty is pretty exaggerated. The ones mentioned are powerful though. At least they worked with a character which was named at least as a daughter. It makes sense that these shieldmaid figures have some inspirational stories. Helm seems not political wise and is not a real hero protagonist, but i liked the portrail a lot. He was bad ass and wants to be protective. The masculin trope with good intents and not just toxic

[@reaver1414]

The movie made it so the reason for the war was so Hera could die a childless spinster

[@athenovae]

No, she didn’t need a war for that. The reason was so we get visual justification of the deep, Hornburg, renamed Helm’s.

[@Luke-kj1rj]

I am sick to death at these writers thinking they can do better than TOLKIEN. Im disgusted at philippa boyens

[@izaforestspirit7811]

I had high hopes for this movie yet it turned out to be disappointment. I had no issue with the animation or the voice acting. The problem is the plot and the poor writing. It should have been about Tolkien's legendary tale of Helm Hammerhand. Instead we got fan-fiction girl boss Hera with a plot lines stolen from Disney's Brave, Lord of The Rings: The Two Towers and Born of Hope. It was way too long too. Also there are pointless scenes such as fight between an mumakil and the watcher in the water.

[@ErikKemeeyKUVBBS]

" It should have been about Tolkien's legendary tale of Helm Hammerhand" Yes that is the movie we got from Hera's point of view You are just using excuses thats all

[@reaver1414]

I hate when they make historical movies and shows where the princess is upset about an arranged marriage, no royalty was ever allowed to marry for love. They were raised knowing that is what is expected of them. But now they have gone even farther away from historical accuracy and towards modern feminism by writing stories where the women don't want to get married at all. These people hate families and marriage.

[@Mythologos]

Middle Earth is not history. It's fantasy.

[@RandomisedUser42]

@@reaver1414 I see a lot of people complain about Hera not doing her duty by marrying Wulf, but her father refused it even without counselling her. Furthermore, I cannot recall one relationship in the original trilogy or The Hobbit that was the result of an arranged marriage, or even anywhere arranged marriage was suggested. We even have Aragorn and Arwen, a human an a elf, which is supposed to be a no-no. Also, I don't think marriage is quintessential to all Middle-Earth characters: Bilbo and Frodo never married or even showed intention to. Now, Hera says "I do not wish to marry any man", which makes it sound that she is suggesting she is a lesbian instead of just not wishing to marry. They could just have changed the line to "I do not wish to marry", but here I can believe they had alterior motives.

[@sithlord.6668]

In historical context it is dangerous to raise kids and for eowyn, hera, boromir/faramirs mothers also died early. As well as you dont see theodens wife. There were females going to monasteries and be educated rather than a birthing pod.

[@sithlord.6668]

Heras background why she doesnt want to be married at all was a bit weak though or even not really explained

[@RandomisedUser42]

@@sithlord.6668 As apposed to Bilbo and Frodo, who was given an in-depth explanation of why they do not want to be married?

[@elvatoz]

Not for Fans but for future fans... Just like StarWars

[@morgoth173]

Video 337

[@rprlunn93]

It was a fine and fun watch yeah it modernised politics soo they had to raise up a girl character but helm and his nephew still are legends of it. And could've been tons worse. It was good writing and top quality filmography. I don't think it belittles any the characters you have a father who's a bad ass and love his family and daughter and the nephew who's gets abit shamed but just says fine be like that I'm still family and saves the day. I don't feel threatened by females and this is one the cases where a female is written in well and doesn't just shout needy pandering. 🤷‍♂️ good on him i reckon if Tolkien was alive nowadays he would've liked the female promotion of Arwen even though I loved Glorfindels character and Tauriel and Hela being added in. He was a man of his time religion and male story based included but I don't think he'd be a toxic masculine insecure person

[@jonny_apocalypseii1051]

its 2024 of couse they made the story of helm about an un named daughter who they made a total girl boss