Star Trek Nemesis Review: What Went Wrong?

[@TacoWrath95]

If you count Galaxy Quest as a Trek film, then the even-odd number theory still holds up, lol.

[@MatthiasPowerbomb]

By Grabthar's hammer...what a savings.

[@floydharper1216]

Who the hell would count galaxy quest as a Star Trek movie?

[@MatthiasPowerbomb]

@@floydharper1216 Everyone!

[@saskapriest]

This is pure brilliance.

[@dycedargselderbrother5353]

That was a hell of a thing.

[@josephnash2081]

To me the greatest weakness of ST Nemesis is that it fails to provide a credible reason for Shinzon to want to destroy Earth. i would have instead had him try to lead the Remans in the destruction of Romulus in an effort to gain the approval of his "Father" Picard whom he invites to witness the destruction of the Federation's greatest remaining enemy. Picard feels morally obligated to prevent the genocide of the Romulans on the grounds that even if they are the are the enemies of the Federation, they are still a people. The Romulans have an ancient civilization that for all its defects is intrinsically valuable. This would have given a credible motive to Shinzon who had been enslaved by the Romulans and greatly deepened the conflict between him and Picard.

[@sharp14x]

Fantastic idea.

[@darwinxavier3516]

Even better if Shinzon had rallied all the people who had been conquered by the Romulans and wanted blood. Like that one alien who posed as Riker's kid. The lesson of the story being that the crimes of a nation/culture do not reflect the views of all of it's members.

[@afischer8327]

Someone destroys their own civilisation, takes over, and then aims to bring all cultures into their way of thinking? How bizarre. Ironical historical parallels aside, I agree with your point about Shinzon's motivation. Why is there a leap from simply dominating Romulus to destroying Earth? He would not have wanted to destroy Romulus, but to slowly expand his territory, and perhaps come into border conflicts with Federation territories. Storyline pacing in this sort of film is absurd. They have not learnt from Dune and many unfilmed sci-fi sagas.

[@MichaelAarons1701]

Alternatively, have Shinzon be a tragic figure who is trapped between his Picard half who would be savior (if allowed) to the oppressed Remans and the promises of destroying any and all who might stand above them (regardless of ambitions towards them) and so the final battle in the nebula is more a big show between the 2 men so that Shinzon can maintain face amongst the Remans (while giving them the illusion of true independence and strength) and Picard can stop the attack on Earth.

[@timesthree5757]

Does their have to be. Can we have a rage filled bad guy for once. Considering how rash, illogical, and hot headed young picard was shinzon makes sense to me.

[@carlrood4457]

One of the great touches to Wrath of Khan is that Kirk and Khan never met in person. They spoke over the viewscreen and the communicator a couple of times, but most of it was them trying to outthink each other. It's similar toe Balance of Terror in that regard, and that's one of my favorite TOS episodes. Also there was no real connection between Shinzon and Picard. They were strangers with the same DNA.

[@anubusx]

I agree. Similar to Dallas and Zorg never met in The Fifth Element.

[@laurarules3642]

It wasn't due to any clever or great masterplan . They had the actor who played Khan for a very short window of time and couldn't film the scenes they wanted between him and Shatner so they had to improvise . But like you pointed out it definitely worked in the movies favour and made the scenes have more weight

[@hagerty1952]

Both BoT and WoK were based, in terms of tone and plotting, on "The Enemy Below," a WWII suspense drama with Robert Mitchum playing a destroyer commander hunting (and being hunted by) a German U-Boat commanded by Kurt Jurgens. The drama in the film is generated by them trying to get into each others' heads and anticipating the next move, based only what they know through their sensing devices and observations. BoT, in fact, even borrows some lines directly, and has the two captains meet each other at the very end where they acknowledge each others skill and recognize the other as a kindred spirit.

[@DavidNicholson101]

@@laurarules3642 I don’t see how WoK could have worked any better than Kirk and Khan having their own ships. Otherwise it would have been Khan taking over the Enterprise again. Besides, the Reliant had similar capabilities to the Enterprise. Why would he want the vessel?

[@chrisw6164]

And look nothing alike. The filmmakers think all men with shaved heads look the same.

[@arioch2112]

Watching Nemesis, I was wondering if it was a result of the cast sitting around with notepads saying 'You know what? I always wanted to do . Picard was suddenly Jim Kirk-ish while off roading and such, the actions of so many folks in this movie just seemed out of place compared to what came prior. Picard making a joke at Riker's expense on the Bridge and other situations just seemed incongruous.

[@762rk95tp]

Patrick Stewart was given associate producer position after he had proven that he can carry Trek movie without Shatner with First Contact. That gave him access to writers room and creative decisions. He wanted more action scenes because those are fun to make. That is the sole reason for dune buggy scene. It is also proof that some actors really don't get their characters even if they have played that character for almost decade.

[@Ma55ey]

I don't know "something heavily involving data" seems like the first thing written on the board in all the tng movie writing sessions..

[@seanodeli7031]

Picard never left the nexus which explains his character change it’s all fantasy

[@willoverkill8461]

I recall a producer saying around season 3 of TNG, Patrick Stewart expressed his displeasure with Picard, saying he needed "to do more shooting and more f*cking", ala Kirk

[@smithgdwg]

@@seanodeli7031 I prefer that timeline. At least in that one Kirk didn't die by having a bridge fall on him.

[@Tyranidus7]

One thing that I have just realized is what would have really helped the film is reiterating the point from Generations that his family have all died, his brother, sister-in-law, and nephew all died in a fire and that film showed Picard's wish for family. That film ended with his crew being more his family but this movie could have used Shinzon as Picard's last chance at youth/having a son. They could have added this fact to connect Shinzon and Picard, Shinzon obviously wanted to get close to Picard for sabotage but also genuine curiosity of his "creator", but Picard didn't really have a reason other than, "Oh he's my clone raised by a brutal enemy empire I should care." there needed to be more. To bring back Picard's family tragedy would have helped.

[@jasonschlierman412]

Yes! Perfect point! Would of helped the narrative a ton and brought the TNG films full circle.

[@gcwyatt]

Exactly! I was wondering if anyone made this point. It's such a wasted opportunity.

[@jiminverness]

_" but this movie could have used Shinzon as Picard's last chance at youth/having a son."_ Why, is Picard shooting blanks?

[@1985slipstream]

errr he has that smoking hot grandma on the planet of the fountain of youth to go back too...

[@comicsgatekeeper9746]

His utter hatred felt a bit left field after being initially very curious and welcoming to picard.He total determination to kill the enterprise was also a bit "where the fuck did that come from?"The emotional depth they were trying for at shinzon's death felt unearned like they were trying force the audience to be sad for a character we really didn't know well enough.There are no shortcuts to empathy I'm afraid

[@boscovilante4068]

He s a guy who is a bad copy of a human. He's simultaneously curious about the original but can't abide the existence of an original of him either. He needs Picard's blood so he tempts the Enterprise over. Shinzon is pushed from a somewhat thoughtful, resentful villain to being an enraged bluntly written vampire figure.

[@timesthree5757]

What? Dude I saw this coming from the start.

[@darrengordon-hill]

Oi, care about "unearned character turns", Just like in wrestling

[@formerlyknownashammerofthegods]

A better justification for Shinzon’s hatred of Picard could have been jealousy of Picard and the life he had compared to Shinzon’s.

[@stiimuli]

The biggest problem I had with every TNG movie after Generations was that - for some bizarre reason - Geordi was replaced by Picard as Data's dearest friend. This felt entirely wrong to me. I get that Picard is the main character and Geordi generally a supporting cast member but rewriting this important relationship seems a really bad narrative choice.

[@lukesvideogameletsplays4416]

Picard and data were always close like that

[@qui-gonrick7002]

They made it even worse in Picard S1 & S2. Although that wasn't the biggest problem with either. They were both terrible.

[@MrOgyny]

​@lukesvideogameletsplays4416 no. No they were not. Picard kept a professional distance from his crew.

[@MM22966]

I think it was just a matter of emphasis/degree. There were plenty of TNG eps where Picard & Data built a friendship.

[@qui-gonrick7002]

@@MM22966 They respected each other, but they were not friends.

[@keithmitchell8068]

When I first watched this film I could not understand how they could just fix B4 without thinking of Data's other brother Lore. It seems that they simply forgot all about him and what he did.

[@AcesnEights698]

This annoyed me as well. The movie had little Trek self-awareness.

[@GEMINIEARTHWALKER]

That's because the director didn't understand anything about Trek, thought Geordi was an alien.

[@gpalmerify]

Dave, I owe you a debt of gratitude about your videos about the WEF/Great Reset. You were way out in front of the implementation of all the tyrannical bioweapon measures and your expert guests were absolutely right. Now my plea again to you to contact Nerdrotic for a long anticipated Friday Night Tights guest spot!

[@jantomasek1017]

Despite all weaknesses, I have a very privileged place in my heart for ST Nemesis, because it was the last true ST movie. Star Trek definitely died in 2005 after the 4th season of Enterprise.

[@Corbomite-ei1ty]

There are sooo many holes in the story. One example: when the ship is so easily invaded, why didn’t they activate the force-fields in the corridors? They did so many times in the series….and …also later in the same film!! Geordie deactivates the field to blow Data out into space 🤪

[@Nr15121]

Well they directed all forcefield power to the shields but yeah agreed even just a few blast doors to slow them down or auto defense turrets or holographic security officers but 🤷

[@fernarias]

There were so many "why" when I watch this film in 2002 but the biggest one was, "why is a young academy picard bald".

[@TheSt1092]

Nemesis is very villainccentric and that is its' biggest problem. Tom Hardy and Patrick Stewart make the best of a pretty thin script . The actiion sequences do hold up I though on a technical level and the set design for the Romulan Senate is spectacular.

[@Z1gguratVert1go]

If they were going to rip off an earlier movie, they should have ripped off Star Trek 6. The Titan should have been a sovereign-class Starship, they should never have destroyed the enterprise-d so that should have been the main ship. Riker should have gotten the Titan early, and so then you could have two Starships squaring off against the Scimitar. Kind of like you had the Enterprise and the Excelsior before.

[@EdgyNumber1]

You're right. Star Trek is supposed to have antagonists, not villains. There is a difference.

[@vroonos]

Hardy did a great job with Shinzon considering how absurd the character was. I thought Stewart turned in his worst Picard to date. It foreshadowed his abysmal Dicard.

[@Z1gguratVert1go]

@@vroonos Dicard is a different continuity. When Jar-Jar Abrams lured Star Trek into his windowless van with candy, he declared the stupid Kelvin Timeline to be an alternate timeline from the "Prime" Timeline. But the "Prime" timeline is not our timeline! It's just called "Prime" but it's not the timeline of Original Series/TNG/DS9/VOY. They made it that way for their own reasons (that 80% BS), but that is our way out of this nightmare as fans. Dicard ain't our Picard, and STD is their "Prime" timeline, not a precursor to what I call "Our Timeline." The real sad thing about Nemesis is that it could have been a lot better. The ingredients were there, and an exploration of the question of Nature vs Nurture is a very Star Trek thing to do. But the execution... bleah

[@vroonos]

@@Z1gguratVert1go The depiction of Picard from Nemesis was the first step towards Dicard. I'm referring to Patrick Stewart's dilution of the character, not which timeline claims Dicard. If the weak screenwriter and director of Nemesis wanted to explore nature v. nurture, they should have chosen a different scenario than the Romulan cloning of Picard. Even if they Romulans had cloned Picard to do some sort of infiltration of the Federation, once they decided to abandon this ridiculous idea, they would have killed the clone. Dump the clone on Remus? Pft.

[@lesigh1749]

Picard shot and killed a temporal copy of himself in a TNG episode to free the enterprise from a time loop. He didn't seem traumatised, and that was HIM, not a clone, a version of him from a day into his own future.

[@lesigh1749]

@@HarosOfStyx I did watch the episode, but perhaps you can point out to me the bit where Picard became catatonic and stood there unable to act while his ship was being destroyed because he was too upset to carry on? Age has utterly nothing to do with it. His younger clone was a rapey nutcase bent on destroying all life on earth and killing the Enterprise crew. His older copy was confused and trying to save his ship. Which should upset more?

[@johngaltspeaking213]

Time squared was one of the few great early episodes. I found it off-putting as a child but watched it again recently. You see another side of Picard, afraid and indecisive. The killing of his temporal copy was meant to represent the death of his indecision and fear so he could face the unknown head on once more.

[@joeswanson733]

@@johngaltspeaking213 i like the concept of we don't know what that time anomaly is but they have no choice but to fly thorugh it.

[@ladkatta]

@@lesigh1749 LOL "a rapey nutcase"

[@jeebuschristos8423]

9:34 Star Trek: Nemesis was criticised as being an "inferior Wrath of Khan"... only to have JarJar Abrams show up and say: "Hold my Romulan Ale" with Into Darkness...

[@Doctor_Robert]

I think you mean "Cardassian Sunrise" and he wouldn't know what a Cardassian looks like if his life depended on it. 😂

[@tatersquad2000]

Nemesis is still 100x better than any modern Trek.

[@derekmcmanus8615]

This...👆

[@mr.sinjin-smyth]

Same goes for Final Frontier... ALL are way better than the entire Kelvin Timeline Star Trek.

[@thomasalvarez6456]

@@mr.sinjin-smyth I thought the cast is ok and the soundtracks are great. I did also like some of the plot that Beyond had but most of Kelvin is too unoriginal. I'd rather watch a thousand TNG movies or seasons of legacy Trek than get more average films with nothing to remember after you leave the cinema.

[@Scottlp2]

@deagleninja I couldn’t finish the last Kelvin ST, but I’ll take the first one over most of STD (certainly first season).

[@thedreadpiratewesley2301]

Idk … the first abrams one was decent I thought .. but anything after that absolutely

[@projektkobra2247]

RLM had a great point about needing Hardy to be bald to be Picard for the hoi polloi non-Trekkie audience..even though we know Picard had his hair in the Academy.

[@AdhamOhm]

That was my favorite part of the review. "It would be like a movie depicting Abraham Lincoln as a child, but he still has a beard and a stovepipe hat."

[@chrissonofpear1384]

Heck, we see Picard still has most of his hair in a TNG flashback set in 2354, and that's only ten years before the TNG pilot episode.

[@IncredibleFulk1]

Fuck RLM

[@darrengordon-hill]

@@AdhamOhm BUT HE DID THOUGH!!! I wear a baseball cap as an adult and wore one as a kid; what more proof do you need?? Now: actual moustache. Then: shoe polish mustache

[@darrengordon-hill]

@@chrissonofpear1384 Jean-Luc French Monk Picard

[@kakashidragon87]

A good call back/mirror would have been when Picard stabbed Shinzon, Shinzon looked down at the wound and started laughing. And that would have let Picard see it from the other side.

[@KageMinowara]

Ohhh, that would have been fantastic!

[@MichaelAarons1701]

He kinda has thanks to Q but I like this idea.

[@robertodell9193]

Villains laughing (or smiling) at the fatal wound dealt by the hero is a cliche that's been discarded for years, and for good reason.

[@KageMinowara]

@@robertodell9193 What is the good reason?

[@itchyisvegeta]

That's a great idea

[@JackIsMe1993]

Nemesis....this is why you back up your Data!!!

[@projektkobra2247]

Uuuuuuuuuggggggaaaaahhhhhh!!

[@TheMaestroMizerous]

*Throws garbage at you*

[@anarkyknight]

@@TheMaestroMizerous lmfao

[@charlessalvia7176]

I never really liked any of the TNG films that much - they all more or less attempted to turn Picard into an action hero, while pretending that Picard and Data had some transcendent relationship (that never existed in the series, unlike the relationship between Kirk and Spock). Even First Contact, which is fun to watch, has a lot of story problems and changed the Borg from a truly alien collective hive-mind to basically an army of goons controlled by an evil sexy dominatrix.

[@laurarules3642]

I never found the Borg Queen sexy or a dominatrix but they made a BIG mistake explaining the Borg even had a Queen. Once you start explaining a scary villains backstory they become less impactful. The UNKNOWN factor can be a lot more terrifying than having a whole history explained like with the Borg , Hannibal Lector , Leatherface etc etc

[@adrianmcmahon5731]

The Borg never should have had a queen, it diluted the relentless threat of the Borg too much and Voyager only went on to defang the Borg far too much.

[@simounobrien9096]

How Ironic, First Contact is my favorite of all Star Trek Films

[@adrianmcmahon5731]

@@simounobrien9096 it's definitely the best of the TNG films despite the flaws I think are in it

[@dermagnus8482]

Same. They only watchable is First Contact. The others are just cash grabs.

[@MatthiasPowerbomb]

With Star Trek V, the line "What does God need with a starship?" is worth the cost of admission alone. Fight me.

[@therearenoshortcuts9868]

for me the line that made the whole thing worth the $8 admission was this line from the same scene: "my pain? lol"

[@MatthiasPowerbomb]

@@therearenoshortcuts9868 Let me share it with you!

[@therearenoshortcuts9868]

@@MatthiasPowerbomb haha ya the entity was like: "wtf? lol"

[@Pondimus_Maximus]

I’ve said this in another video, but I’ll repeat it here: I regard Patrick Stewart as one of the finest actors who ever lived, but when it comes to story ideas, he can’t write his way out of a wet paper bag. They should have kept him busy, by having him play his own clone.

[@shininginshadows]

I always liked this movie, but the "live on or destroy earth" part never made sense. It cheapened the Romulans somewhat as well. I have long said that the movie would have had a stronger ending if 1) we understood why there were no Romulan ships around Romulus, 2) we learn the Shinzon's plan was to use the Thaeleron weapon on Romulus if he didn't survive/was holding it over the Romulans who didn't follow him, 3) after the Enterprise escapes Romulus, they learn of Shinzon's plan and have to decide whether or not they'll turn back and save Romulus (because again there are no Romulan ships around to stop him) or themselves

[@crystalward1444]

We know about Picard's recklessness based on an episode of the series with Q. If Shinzon was able to age then there's no need for going after Picard. Kirk told Picard to never leave the bridge of the Enterprise in Generations.

[@Shalom_Mike]

The problem is the story. I just didn't believe the story. It was far-fetched and didn't make sense. What they should have done was to lift a story arc from one of the episodes and expand on that. They had 7 years with some really compelling stories that could have been explored further. I think that's why the 'Wrath of Khan' was so compelling. They had a resolution to a TOS episode and by happenstance a mission more than a decade later (the movie) they found out what happened to Khan and his people. Finding out that Khan blamed Kirk for their circumstances. Bringing the familiar is a nod to the fans as well as inviting others to go back and watch the originals.

[@sincitytaoist3883]

Personally I would have preferred to have seen a movie featuring Lore. Maybe have a story involving Starfleet engineers wanting to repair and revive Lore using borg nanoprobes and knowledge from Seven of Nine. But Lore already possessed extensive knowledge about them and was able to control and repurpose them is his body. Then maybe he takes control of a Starfleet vessel using them. I think Lore vs Data would have been a much better Wrath of Khanesque story for a movie.

[@MandalorV7]

And that’s what First Contact did so well. It brought Picard back to face his greatest failure and see how much he still is bothered by what the Borg did to him and what they made him do.

[@laurarules3642]

@@sincitytaoist3883 I'm probably in the minority here but I always hated Lore. I have read some rumours that they considered a DS9 and TNG movie that had the potential to be awesome if it was handled right.

[@Rdeboer]

The TNG episode 'Conspiracy' was originally supposed to have a follow up, but in the event we just got a speculative ending with a cryptic signal coming from space suggesting that the invasion was coming. Imagine they made a movie about that!

[@laurarules3642]

@@Rdeboer I loved that episode and a follow up would have been great

[@BobSperber]

At 63, I grew up with TOS and kept up with everything since. I can’t be very critical…it’s all “family to me. Happy to see you delving into this stuff :-)

[@sdprazak]

I think Nemesis had alot of good ingredients and intentions. Like you said, it was the execution of those elements that caused it to underperform.

[@TheSt1092]

And the the fact Paramount made the stupid decision to release the film at similar time to Lord of the Rings : The Two Towers.

[@jimtaylor294]

That; and the poor decisions in the editing room that led to major scenes being left out, and a worse ending than was originally shot. A film that IMO is much better when all aspects are considered, than is often claimed. The tragedy is thst the film could have been a much better performer had a few of those aspects been used differently.

[@A88mph]

In First Contact, an extra can be heard saying that the Borg took over decks 26 and up. Also, remember how in ST5 when Kirk's Rocket Boots went past deck 78? So who knows how many decks these ships have. :)

[@taopilot2669]

Also the decks go down, not up. The bridge is on deck one, so the numbers should get higher as you go down, not up.

[@chrissonofpear1384]

The Ent-E cross-section and main systems display shows 23 or 24 decks (depending on how you interpret the bottom bit) so that's what I go with: 24 decks. Although at least a door is seen with '09' on it, shortly before Riker fights the Viceroy, so you can interpret that scene as being on deck 9 instead.

[@MoonjumperReviews]

Excellent review. I like your idea of Shinzon aging into Picard. That was one of the flaws I immediately noticed when I first watched the film in the theater back in 2002. The film was trying to sell us on the “shock” that this young clone of Picard looks just like young Picard-“oh my God!” The problem is it’s hard to have that kind of emotional impact with the audience when we have never seen an image of young Picard who looked like Shinzon. (Indeed, the one time we did meet Picard at that same approximate age, he had hair and he looked nothing like Shizon!) Therefore, the whole premise of the film is we, the audience, taking their word for it. “Oh my God, he looks like me at a young age!!!” Uh…okay, if you say so. There’s no emotional impact.

[@liontone]

TMP: “We have no idea who Nick Meyer is….” TWOK: “This Nick Meyer guy is good!” TSFS: “We really don’t need Nick Meyer….We can do it….” TVH: “Eh… we better get Nick Meyer’s help….” TFF: “We don’t need Meyer… the last movie was huge!” TUC: “Eh, we really need Meyer!”

[@pfcparis]

It's my understanding that Brent Spiner requested Data be killed. He believed he was getting too old to play an ageless android.

[@drewmandan]

Are we not going to mention the worst part of the whole movie? Wesley Crusher came back from literally being an entity that has transcended time and space, to...attending a wedding and rejoining the Academy so that he can serve as an ensign? What?

[@bob23301]

Nemesis is now Citizen Kane to anything from 2009 onwards.

[@aracelymoran2504]

@bob23301 🤣🤣🤣

[@Adarkane325xi]

First rule of storytelling - if there are twins, they’ll inevitably trade places. @11:34 Why is young Picard bald?! TMP is my favorite. It’s pure science fiction, and Isaac Asimov was an adviser. It’s an epic, more in line with 2001 than Star Wars. It’s a wonderful tale of getting what or where you need to be. Kirk needs the Enterprise, Spock needs Kirk, Decker needs Ilia, V’Ger needs to evolve. Plus it gave us the breathtaking Constitution-Refit, which is elegant in her simplicity.

[@balrighty3523]

5:34 Unfortunately, this part really fell apart for me. Because you're right; we (the audience) are supposed to see a younger Captain Picard here. We're supposed to be right there with Picard as he wonders who this person is. What this person is. Is he a transporter duplicate? Someone surgically altered to look like young Picard? From a parallel universe? Is he a clone? But instead, since Tom Hardy doesn't look sufficiently like Patrick Stewart to imply "young Captain Picard", we the audience just see "random bald human". Picard's looking at him weird. Wonder what that's about. And now some oddly emphasized comments about how alike they are; are they supposed to be related? It's not until Crusher reveals that Shinzon is a clone that we even know what we were supposed to have been looking at. We're playing catch-up with the emotional tone of the scene. As you later say, we needed some kind of scene with Tom Hardy playing Cadet Picard, if only to know that he's what the film says "young Captain Picard" is supposed to look like. Now, if the film had come out after X-Men First Class and they'd used James McAvoy, it would have been more obvious (though a scene contrasting Picard's memories of his younger days juxtaposed with Shinzon's upbringing would probably have still helped).

[@sungleong]

Picard clone was miscast. He doesn't feel like a formidable enemy of picard, he shouldn't be bald at that age.

[@Tirpitz7]

I actually like Generations. The special effects on Nemesis still look amazing today. The space battle at the end was epic.

[@bigmoe28]

They really did miss the chance to give Worf a little arc. While everyone else is moving on, He's stuck in a sense of not knowing where he belongs. The Ambassador gig didn't work out, DS9 no longer has any need of him, now he's back where he started and the family's breaking up. But then show him steadily taking more of a leadership role which culminates in him becoming First Officer at the end of the movie. Picard: How does it feel Mr. Worf? Worf: ... Comfortable chair.

[@Ashkihyena]

I’d still take this movie over any of the modern drivel they’re trying to pass off as Star Trek. And that includes Picard Season 3.

[@andreshernandez1180]

This must be where Mike Myers got the idea for how Dr. Evil should look.

[@AndyG73]

I think that one of the most major issues with the TNG films generally was that they continued the 'safe' stories and Picard-Data centred plots, presumably at the behest of franchise showrunner/film series producer Rick Berman. That he was far less involved in creating and heading up DS9, which did take far more risks, which do stand the test of time do count against his leadership. I think he tended to 'go safe' on the stories after the death of Gene Roddenberry in 1991, quite noticeable in the lesser quality of seasons 6 and especially 7 in TNG, followed by the films. Whilst First Contact was good, it was (like all the other TNG films) very Picard and Data-centric and yet again involved the Borg, something IMHO the showrunners did to death in Voyager. In my view, much of the best of the TNG era (including DS9, Voyager and Enterprise) story-wise came from the (Pocket Book) novels, which sadly were never either adapted or jointly used to keep the franchise going and in good shape. Maybe it was down to contracts rather like the 25% different one for the JJ era films and subsequent TV shows. I much prefer the novels that took over from the end of Nemesis storyline. I think what the TNG films also showed was Star Trek was far better suited to the medium of episodic television (and novels [many of the best ones were multi-book arcs/crossovers]), and DS9 showed them the way by having over-arching story arcs that would develop ALL the characters, not just a few to the deriment of others (as was the case with TNG, VGR & ENT) as well as decent stand-alone episodes. I wonder if Paramount's legal spat with Michael J Strazinsky over similarities with Babylon 5 actually helped them, because they were allowed to follow a series-wide arc as B5 did, which helped both shows.

[@taopilot2669]

I agree with you about the quality of seasons 6 and 7. I also think that rushing into making movies right away didn't help the TNG crew. One of the best things about The Motion Picture was that fans had been salivating for 10 years to see more Trek. TNG fans had to wait a few months. This is not a popular opinion, but I think TNG should have ended with season 5. The Spock episode would have been a great way to end the series. Then give the crew a rest for a few years. Let the fans miss them, give the writers more time to come up with a better story.

[@erikkeever3504]

While I agree that Voyager did end up using the Borg to death, I'd note that at the time First Contact came out Voyager hadn't even done their first Borg foreshadowing episode yet.

[@chrissonofpear1384]

And lately the Pocket Books 'novelverse' stories have just come to an end, with the 'Coda' trilogy, designed to wrap up loose ends before giving way to the Picard timeline (which they are not otherwise compatible with) All the same, it was a hell of a good run, and good times.

[@tomcruisenukedmyaccount5388]

The NG movies are bad, including FC.

[@ISEGaming]

What timing, just wrapped up watching this movie last night. Was bringing some friends to marathon MOST of the entire franchise. Started with TOS Movies, TNG > DS9 > VOY > LD > TNG MOVIES.

[@JessRenee91481]

I think Nemesis suffered from high expectations, and other than killing Data off, and if it had been a two-parter in season 7 it would have been viewed positively.

[@Tommykey07]

What confused me is that we see the Romulans complaining that Shinzon has not attacked the Federation yet, but when he does finally attack the Enterprise, the Romulans side with Picard.

[@jasonleetaiwan]

The female Romulan changed her mind.

[@owenwildish331]

I did enjoy ST Nemesis although it wasn't exactly great, I wonder why they didn't have Sela (Denise Crosby) in this film, I think there was a missed opportunity with that character if she was, what with all that Romulan stuff in this film & it being the last TNG film.

[@jimtaylor294]

Apparently Denise did offer to reprise her role as Sela for the film (and was enthusiastic for it), and Commander Donatra's role is very Sela'esque at times. For reasons unknown the director chose not to though.

[@itchyisvegeta]

Stupidity

[@JJSmith-le5mu]

He details things he'd like to have seen, I want to add that should include Commander Sela (Denise Crosby) as the commander of one of the Romulan ships, but staying full Romulan when talking to Picard after the fight is over. Something like: "Don't flatter yourself Picard. What I did, I did for the Empire."

[@SumDumGy]

What went wrong? Really, not a whole lot. The android subplot was a bit contrived but, overall, this is still a pretty solid film with the best space battle we’d had to date. I think maybe had they given this to a director who had a familiarity and/or appreciation for the franchise, we would have been better off. I’ve always enjoyed Nemesis.

[@davidbrennan660]

At least Picard didn’t apologise about everything to everybody.

[@spikeforce]

You either die a hero or live long enough to become a shadow of your former self. 😔

[@SilviaVanThreepwood]

Nothing went "wrong", everything is perfectly in sinc and on track for destroying everything we love....

[@Nr15121]

8:04 they aren’t on the 29th deck by the time they intercept the boarding party look at the labels on the doors, also after nemesis multiple refits happened it’s not unreasonable they added a couple more decks by redoing the internals a bit.

[@3797ID]

I know some people shit on nemesis, but I enjoyed it & will stop & watch whenever I come across it

[@toddkurzbard]

Now we know where Leia Poppins learned to survive being blown into deep space: she saw Data in this movie.

[@SkyStarNova]

As imperfect as it is I love Nemesis. Maybe because Romulans are my favorite trek villians but I also like Insurrection, as it deals whitha theme that was very badly covered in TNG, but the film does cover it in a far better way.

[@jorgezarco9269]

"They gave the car keys to the bimbo." -Marina Sirtis

[@HarosOfStyx]

Except for the illogical appearance of Wesley, who's suppose to be with the Traveller, nothing went wrong. It was a poignant in-your-face examination of ones past. Especially for Data, who did the most human thing possible: died saving his friends.

[@TOONDISE]

Very true Dave, but it's still miles better than the garbage we're getting today with CBS and Klutzman. At least back then, they took their jobs and storytelling seriously. Now, we get unlikeable characters making stupid illogical decisions, virtue signaling, forced profanity and political agendas, story contradictions and unexplained events from one episode to the next, and worst of all, most of the original TNG cast reprising their roles but acting as their idiotic selves in real life instead of the intelligent thought-provoking characters they used to portray and that the fans used to look up to. ~Scott

[@gunsharck]

The Scimitar is an incredible ship

[@MLPDethDealr32]

" 52 disruptor banks, 27 Photon Torpedo bays, primary and secondary shileds.." I love the look on their faces as it decloaks XD.

[@UndyingNephalim]

The first trailer for this movie made it seem like it was about the Mirror Universe, with evil copies of the TNG crew and the Remans being the Mirror Universe version of the Romulans. Probably would have been a better premise.

[@awesomehpt8938]

I’ll never get over how stupid that buggy they used was. When firstly they have beaming technology and they also have shuttles. And that cannon at the backend of it was pretty useless being able to only shoot in one direction.

[@thomasalvarez6456]

Patrick Stewart wanted it added in.

[@joeswanson733]

@@thomasalvarez6456 nemesis might as well be stewarts and brent spiners movie. because they meddled with the script a lot

[@JonathanJK]

You can find this video on KZbin, but there is a version of Nemesis with all the deleted scenes added or in place of the cinema's version of the scene. It adds in the character building scene, more Beverly Crusher and the better ending.

[@jimtaylor294]

Amen. Had the film not been so mauled in the cutting room; we'd probably be discussing Star Trek XI instead. (as had X done better, XI would have been greenlit, and Enterprise probably would have not been so easily killed off by Les Moonves [as the box office failure of X hurt Enterprise very badly, with the last season only getting made because they wanted better odds of syndication])

[@rager-69]

I seemed to recall hearing that intended to do another TNG movie but the poor performance of Nemesis nixed that. That would explain why this movie didn't have Picard become Admiral. And, B4 (dumb name) seemed to be meant as a reboot of the Data character for the next movie.

[@davidm4566]

Riker taking over the Bug Chair on Enterprise would have been great. The end felt so empty and hopeless because pretty everyone had transferred or died. Having Riker and Troi stay on ship would have felt hopeful for the future.

[@ChrisRoth1972]

I remember nearly 20 years ago walking out of the Theater & it was kind of depressing with Data killed off,Riker & Troi leaving the Enterprise. I saw Nemesis a second time,& enjoyed the Action Sequences,a lot of the plot & the cameo with Janeway! Nemesis is so much better with the Discovery Show!

[@sharkdentures3247]

So? Basically the message the Star Trek movie makers are trying to convey is "Not ONLY can't women DRIVE, they can't PILOT ships either!"? = Troi

[@robertbeckman2054]

I admit I’m heavily boast towards the original cast (Kirk, Spock and McCoy). Star Trek I, II and III make up the serious and best of all the films, with IV being fun and VI finishing strong. I hated the Picard lineup, but was honestly taken back by First Contact, which has now become my second favorite only to Wrath oj Kahn. All other ST films, especially the “lens flare” ones I can’t stand.

[@MovieZone421]

By the time that nemesis rolled around, the fans had trek burnout. That is one of the reasons why Star Trek was not included in Enterprise for the first season.

[@jasonleetaiwan]

Yup, I didn’t see Nemesis in theaters. Too many films. Insurrection didn’t interest me.

[@Domjot5569]

I actually love insurrection, for me growing up it was one I really loved data in, and felt it really flushed him out in to being more human, and tho I'll admit the joy stick scene with the Enterprise - E was really rediculous, I loved the film over all, Nemesis I almost completely agree with you on, I absolutely hated that they killed off Data. Data was the sole reason I watched TNG, to me TNG was too boring and slow and ehh except for the few fighting scenes... But Data gave me joy whenever he had a part in it, so for me Nemesis is a 4/10 film in my book.

[@joeswanson733]

insurrection felt like a TNG episode.

[@Domjot5569]

@@joeswanson733 not so much for me

[@schwarzerritter5724]

One important fact you glossed over, Shinzon placed B4 on the planet the Enterprise crew found him on, so he cansteal the codes for Starfleet's cloaking detector net. His plan hinged heavily on the Enterprise crew randomly stumbling on B4, assembling him on the ship instead of sending him to the Daystrom Institute, leave him switched on during the very important negotiations with the the new Romulan praetor and on top of that completely unattended.

[@Starfia]

Wow, you're right about the idea of having Stewart play his rapidly-aged cloned self at the moment of his death. That was so perfectly set up that I can't imagine why they wouldn't have, and it would have demystified Picard's stunned reaction.

[@bombarde1701a]

It shouldve been a crossover with Voyager. I wouldve had Voyager in command of Janeway show up during the battle to help the Enterprise-E. There shouldve been some dialogue or explanation for how Worf went from Chancellor Martok’s ambassador to Q’Nos to ending up on the Enterprise-E. The Dominion War is only briefly mentioned. Despite Shinzon’s takeover, theres no mention of Spock who’s still on Romulus at this point.

[@MrJobsworth1979]

Picard makes Nemesis look like a masterpiece!

[@saladinbob]

I always felt that the biggest mistake with this movie was Tom Hardy as Shinzon. Now I'm a fan of Hardy, I think he's an excellent actor but this character would have had far more gravitas and impact about it had Patrick Stewart played both roles, with Picard essentially, having to try outwit himself. The other big problem with this movie is it wasn't handing off to anyone, no Next Next Generation because what came next was the prequel of Enterprise, which as much as I like, was not the show any Trekkie wanted. It should have been both then end of era and the passing of the torch to the next show with a cameo by the new Captain.

[@stevemeyer4765]

Honestly, compared to any of the modern Star Trek, Nemesis is excellent.

[@robertodell9193]

No. A shit movie is a shit movie no matter what you compare it to. Star Trek isn't that hard to write. There's no excuse for the terrible writing in the Next Gen movies.

[@stevemeyer4765]

@@robertodell9193 still better than anything post 2005 trek

[@factory8138]

Data's death wasn't random/for shock value, Data was always going to die in this movie. Brent Spiner wanted out because he was getting too old to play the ageless Android. As far as it not being a fitting send off, the movie was never supposed to be a send off for the TNG crew, the fact that it did so poorly is the reason it ended up being the send-off film.

[@sarrjel]

My problem with the TNG movies is that they have poor continuity with the tv series. There are mistakes in the movies that are frustrating to watch. If you don't believe me, re-watch the TNG tv series and then start watching the movies, you'll see a lot of movie mistakes that contradict the characters and the episodes. The movies are cavalier and kind of generic. They are well acted and the special effects are well put, but the stories for these films just aren't very good. Johnathan Frakes directed some great episodes in the TNG series but I don't understand why these films weren't well written with him in the director's chair. Stuart Baird didn't even watch the episodes or get help from the cast members, he just did whatever he thought would make a good sci-fi film and that was it. The older films with William Shatner and Leanard Nimoy was full of great special effects, you could see the electricity from the Reliant ship in Wrath of Khan when it lost one of its engines. The explosions felt real and the dialogue doesn't feel forced or out of character. Star Trek 2 , 3 and 4 are actually part of a trilogy which is real cool. They roll right after the other in one long movie. I think with Star Trek 5 you would have to look at the competition in the theater and Paramount cut William Shatner's budget down by a lot because of his direction. It's not the worst film in the world but I think it captures the idea "To Boldy Go Where No Man Has Gone Before." I think Star Trek 5 should've been an intro to Star Trek 6 and what I mean is to have one last mission where the main crew learn that there are parties in the Klingons and Star Fleet undermining the alliance with the help of the Romulans. It could be a subtle story and have BiBi Besch come back and have Kirk actually mourn for his son's death and bring back Merrit Buttrick for a couple flashbacks. One of the things that really frustrated me about Star Trek III was how it wrote BiBi out and killed off Merrit's character for the budget. Kirk just learns he has a son and get's back together with his ex-wife in Star Trek 2 and then in the beginning of Star Trek 3 they both just disappear because of "reasons???" . Then obviously Kristie Alley left because she wanted more money and the studio hired Robin Curtis and her character of Savik mated with Spoke in Star Trek III and then gets forgotten after Star Trek IV. In Star Trek II she was trying to get her own command and captain her own ship but then she descides to be Science officer for the Genisis project and then in Star Trek 4 she's left behind. She's never brought up again and you don't know if she gave up Star Fleet. Robin Curtis should've been in Star Trek 5 and 6. She's kind of a big deal. The older films have their problems but they capitalize and compliment the series. In TNG, the movies dis-regard the series and are lower quality with the story.

[@Erik_Swiger]

I forget the entire quote, but it's something about "the best writers steal from other writers."

[@Trekkie46]

This is still one of my favorites. It also helps to know that Data dying wasn't just tacked on per se. It was intentional because Brent Spiner was aging noticeably which didn't fit the character. I'll agree they could have set it up better, but jumping from ship to ship was a pretty cool idea.

[@AcesnEights698]

I recall this excuse back in the day. It never made sense to me as the TNG franchise was being put out to pasture.

[@Trekkie46]

@@AcesnEights698 If Nemesis was well received, I doubt this would have been the last one. Whether they wanted it to be final or not.

[@AcesnEights698]

@@Trekkie46 Fair enough however the ending pretty much "broke up the band" that for, what it's worth, never faired well on the big screen aside from First Contact. The TNG cast had run its course.

[@Trekkie46]

@@AcesnEights698 I was thinking about how 3 of the cast were in-universe separated, but what's bugging me is how Nemesis ended. It was in spacedock, getting repaired to go back out. There's also a deleted scene with a new First Officer (and that part with the seatbelts). Why would they go so far as to cast someone for that role? Moreso, The Enterprise actually departs spacedock in that scene with the message of returning to exploring the unknown. Did they want to make a final movie or did they want to shoehorn in possibility for more? And how much push and pull behind the scenes about such directions affected the final product?

[@AcesnEights698]

@@Trekkie46 I agree that the possibility existed for more, especially if the movie was far better received. Even Data's "death" was hedged by the B4 nonsense.

[@Nick-kz6dg]

Garret Wang once had the right idea: make Voyager Endgame Part I as-is, then instead of making Nemesis turn Endgame Part II into a feature film finale for the series.

[@TurtleTrackin]

You made me think of something new related to this film-- in a sense, these story arcs were very Trek-ish, but also highly restricted because of the film format. It would have been great over a multi-episode story rather than cram it into movie. The TNG films tried to be extensions of the show, which limited them a great deal. The TOS films, by contrast, were more like a brand new series with their own circumstances. And every TOS movie, save one, started with a premise completely removed from the episodic plot of "another adventure for the Enterprise" with all stock characters in position. That exception, perhaps not surprisingly, was ST5. ST1- Kirk is Admiral. New captain, New ship, no Spock. ST2 - Kirk is old. Spock is Captain, Checkov is gone, and Saavik, Carol, and David are introduced. ST3- Spock is dead, and the crew are being put out to pasture. McCoy is losing his mind. The ship is being decommissioned. ST4- No ship. Spock is back--sort of. McCoy seems to really like Spock in a way you never see in in original series. Kirk's son is dead. Saavik leaves. They're all criminals now. ST5 -Just an episode with all set pieces in place. The malfunctioning Enterprise is one new element, but alas, it is an illogical one. ST6- Sulu is gone. The crew is retiring. Spock is playing ambassador, Kirk's racism and bitterness are surfacing, and Scotty just bought a boat.

[@thebensisko]

Great commentary! I never thought of it this way

[@JayMac15]

That aging to Picard's age is a spicy idea. I like it!

[@bdekraker]

Nemesis was bizarrely forgetable. Literally, even a month later after watching it I could barely remember what happened. Also, 2002 was a strange time for big franchises. James Bond was also struggling, with the promising but quite terrible Die Another Day the same year. Many of the same problems, a mirror ironically.

[@joeschembrie9450]

It's not that Troi has a 'knack for crashing into things," it's that when they're in a tight situation where it looks like a crash is inevitable, none of the bridge-qualified officers wants to tarnish his record with a crash, so they have Troi pilot the ship.

[@disasterdisaster581]

Nemesis had the best space combat there's ever been in trek. The visual effects, pacing and and intelligent choices made by the characters involved really brought it to life. Compare and contrast with the messes discovery presented us with.

[@burncycle4621]

When they meet Shinzon, it wasn't at the Romulan senate, or anywhere on the surface. It was aboard the Scimitar. They meet in the very room Picard and Data escape from the Scimitar in the scorpion fighter later in the film.

[@Domjot5569]

Early Access squad sound off!

[@johnvanorder3581]

AAAAND they could have explained how Worf made it back to the Enterprise after leaving DS9 with Martok as an Ambassador.

[@Dori-Ma]

I remember getting my hands on the leaked script for Nemesis. I found it so utterly ridiculous that I dismissed it as a fake, though I did enjoy someones (can't remember their name anymore) annotated take on the script. And then, months later, the trailer dropped and it looked like the leaked script wasn't a fake after all. Movie came out, and it was the freaking script except that the Data knock-off had undergone a name change from B9 to B4. Such contrived trash.

[@willford7499]

What mainly went wrong was the early(ish) reliance on 'vengeful antagonist to try and re-achieve the Khan effect' that happened since ST 2 and especially with all the ST movies since 'The Bad Reboot'. Never mind a Sci fi sense of wondering about strange new worlds, just have a bad guy focusing hatred on a captain, other crew member or the federation in general for spurious reason X.

[@boydebrook]

I'm so glad you brought this movie up. Now I can nitpick about 2 things without judgement! LOL! 1) I hate how the Enterprise "thrusts" itself into warp with vapor trails! Its not like using an afterburner on an F-16! 2) When the Enterprise collides into the Scimitar and then Shinzon reverses thrusters. Well, the E isn't reversing also so, technically, all that would happen is Shinzon dragging Picard. Somebody forgot elementary physics!

[@theunknownone5990]

Point 2 depends on how firmly they were stuck together. Even though space has no friction to keep the ships in place, the laws of momentum would cause Enterprise to eventually slide out since the mass of Scimitar was trying to accelerate while the mass of Enterprise was not.

[@JohnJackson-mn4ts]

It’s one saving grace, it was the last proper Trek film before Jar Jar Abrams came along and vandalised the whole franchise. I must be the only fan who liked Insurrection. I agree it was a bit goofy, but at least it was an original story.

[@Zontar82]

I never thought of nemesis as "better" than insurrection, it was just less...shitty than insurrection. And yet it was much much better than anything they pooped in recent times

[@davidm4566]

The problem was that there was a big gap in the movies. Basically there could have been another movie between Insurrection and Nemesis, meaning that Nemesis was actually supposed to be an odd-numbered film. The really great, even-numbered film that went after Insurrection was just never made in this timeline!

[@thomasalvarez6456]

I quite like it, the directors cut that is. Almost all of the cut scenes improve the film. I like the action scenes, some of the best since Khan. It ends on a good note and most of the crew is split up, I wonder if that other TNG featuring the DS9 and Voyager crews would have ever been made. At least some of them got to return in small roles afterwards, Star Trek online for example. The final scene of the directors cut is great too, we see the crew getting ready for the next voyager with the new first officer. It was bittersweet with something being left to the imagination.

[@HarosOfStyx]

Yeah but STO isn't canon so it doesn't count.

[@Zontar82]

i really wanted some movies with voyager/ds9 casts, shame we never had them. and no please don't count that travesty of a game a as substittuion to a movie

[@deletebilderberg]

@@HarosOfStyx A bloody men.

[@deletebilderberg]

@@Zontar82 Even after seven seasons of DS9 there was still so much scope for more.

[@thomasalvarez6456]

How comes you focused on that? I said one line that at least the cast got to return to the universe, a game which I’ve barely played a few hours of. The rest of the comment is a lot longer than a small sentence that was very neutral.

[@odysseusrex5908]

I think it would have been intersting if Picard had been *offered* promotion but had responded with something to the Effect of, "James T. Kirk, himself, once told me never to accept promotion. I think I'll keep the Enterprise."

[@dgriffinctc3834]

To be honest, this could have worked well with a few modifications. First, I would get rid of the whole blood transfusion plot point. Shenzon is a failed cloning attempt but he still manages to rise through the ranks of Reman society through sheer ruthlessness. He gets Picard into the picture with a fake peace negotiation for three reasons: One, he sees the Sovereign Class the way we see carriers. There's only a handful of them and taking one out is a blow equivalent to crippling 1/11 of the starfleet navy. Two, the propaganda significance of defeating Picard, the name Enterprise, and the flagship, as well as the high level tactical information are huge military gains. Third, he wants to see why he was considered a failure by the Romulans. Who is this captain so peerless that even the man who conquered Romulus from a Reman slave pit couldn't equal him? Second, there's no B4 and Worf is given his own arc. Worf was the ambassador to the Klingon Empire and in the House of Martok, the ruling house. He is going use the Captain's Yacht to attempt to make it to the neutral zone where he can escape Romulan communications jamming and call for help from the empire. Of course, he's accompanied by a Romulan senator who survived the slaughter and he must work with them to broker a temporary peace in time to have the Negh'Var show up (with the two Romulan Warbirds) against the Scimitar. Also, he had Dax on DS9, there should be no pining for Troi BS. Third, make Data's sacrifice mean something. Have him struggle with the emotions of making the decision to sacrifice himself and deliberately leave his emotion chip on so he can carry the memories and feelings of his friends with him. Logic says "let the bomb go off and kill the Remans and the Enterprise crew to save trillions from war, he needs the emotion of the loss of even one of his friends to push him forward to stop the bomb. Just like Spock, it is the human in Data that saves the ship, not the android (as it was said before, if you want to be a ripoff, be a good one). Fourth, Shenzon isn't against the ropes when he triggers the bomb. Scimitar is crippled, but he will escape back to Remus to continue his war. He has back up plans. He is the one with a special plot armor teleporter gizmo. But, during a previous scene where Picard breaks down in a very defeated and uncharacteristic way, JLP stole the device and while Shenzon realizes it's missing, Picard uses it to abandon him on the Scimitar, saying something to reference how his "human weakness" is actually what made him better and that's why the Romulan clone would never have been able to succeed. Just me 2 cents on how I would have written it.

[@SlackMidget]

Meh.

[@SubtleStair]

Kirk's death was actually necessary, Dave. It closed the door on that character in a very meaningful and decisive way. Kirk was given one last hurrah before they dropped a bridge on him.

[@starcoloneldunadansonoft501]

Ah, First Contact: the last good Trek film.

[@joeswanson733]

it was only good as it was more of ahorror action movie . it was definitely not TNG style.

[@avnrulz8587]

Hated what 'First Contact' did to Zefram Cochran.

[@johnharrison6745]

I ENJOYED 'Nemesis'. Felt like it introduced some MUCH-NEEDED energy and sinisterness.