Dice Tower Re-Roll: Marvel Legendary vs. Marvel Champions

[@pietrorasputin52]

Tom misses the whole point of what makes the Shield expansion so cool. It gives the shield officer stack unique shield officers! It adds a great new dimension to the game and gives players a reason to consider buying from that stack.

[@tardersauce3578]

I thought they should add a coulson attack two from the start

[@nicksbordone5271]

I own both but much prefer champions. It's thematic, has some deck construction, and is more interesting mechanically

[@AmatMiguel]

Two years after this video was made, I can say it's now much easier to find all of Champions' content when compared to even half of Legendary's.

[@Michael-og7js]

100% this. Also,. legendary feels like it's headed towards going oop, while champions is very much still on the rise

[@alexbiersner3350]

It's very heartwarming to see Marvep Champions still going strong. Sooner or later, they're gonna run out of characters. But that, I feel, won't come for a while

[@marks6928]

In Marvel Champions, if you’re playing as Thor, you can play Hammer Throw, and then, after the damage, Mjolnir returns to your hand (of cards). Mjolnir. Returns. To your hand. For me, that is one of the coolest small game mechanics ever. Champions all the way.

[@BojanBrankov]

Yeah, the same is with Cap's shield. There's an event which exhausts shield to ignore all the damage, or an event where you damage X enemies and than the shield returns to your hand!

[@kamb26]

It’s thematic design choices that make the game really cool and with each hero pack you feel like the hero. In legendary I felt like it’s just using new art on cards. In Champions, the hero specific cards are the bread and butter. Hawkeye for example has 2 copies of 5 different arrows that each do different things. The villain decks are also unique to that character.

[@maomao180]

The neat thing about Champions is that it is littered with these little mechanics that are thematically cool. The design just feels well thought out and immersive for a card game.

[@kamb26]

@@maomao180 exactly and it keeps getting better. I know a bunch of people want the xmen but I like the approach they are taking now. They are really delving into characters we don’t normally see. I wanna see Daredevil and the Fantastic Four.

[@Guyito775]

I watched this video back in early October and read your comment about the thematic throw throwing a hammer. I since purchased Champions and couldn’t agree more! Champions all the way!

[@DaletheCasualGamer]

Thanks for the video. I love both games and see them both staying permanently in my collection. Both have their own pros and cons, and they feel different enough that one won't replace the other.

[@pietrorasputin52]

Exactly. You can't compare the two games in any fair way. They are two entirely different systems that are for two entirely different gaming experiences. I don't think one is superior to the other and it's possible to love both equally. :)

[@JimCrimmins]

wait a minute... this is a reasonable and rational internet reply... truly a sign of the end times... they both can be good? interesting ... also, what Dale said. :)

[@DarthEd77]

I own both and enjoy both, but Marvel Legendary is my all-time favorite game. This video didn’t address some things that I feel Marvel Legendary is far better at. Marvel Legendary has near infinite replayability. Also, the way Legendary’s Schemes change how you play the game is genius and keeps the game fresh every time you play. I feel like you can see everything in Marvel Champions after about 10 plays and then you’re waiting on the next pack to be released. Marvel Champions’ individual heroes are “solvable”, as Mike said. There is an optimal way of playing each hero. Iron Man is always going to want to ramp up his armor. Black Panther is always going to be diving for “Wakanda Forever”. After a while, the gameplay will feel repetitive. Marvel Legendary is also far more accessible. It’s much easier to teach. I also disagree that it is more onerous than Champions to set up or takedown. The difference is very minor in my experience. For me, Marvel Champions replaced Sentinels of the Multiverse. I don’t think I’ll ever play SotM again. But for my go to Marvel game, Marvel Legendary is still tops.

[@Punko1969]

I'd be interested in checking back in a few years and see how opinions change about this comparison. People are using the word 'tired' to describe Legendary here, but no one had that complaint a few months after it's release. I'm catching a whiff of 'cult of the new' here. If Marvel Champions is as highly regarded after eight years of milking the license as Marvel Legendary still is, I'll be shocked.

[@nicksbordone5271]

I think that the replayability in champions is comparable. You can play each hero with 4 different aspects, against each villain, with different minions. When it comes to it being solvable, each hero is good with at least a few aspects, so after you think you made the best deck for one aspect, just swap to a different one

[@DarthEd77]

Nick Sbordone Being able to play heroes with each of the different aspects gives a certain amount of replayability, but it’s not nearly enough. You’re still doing much of the same thing. But that’s just my opinion.

[@Atlas-FM8]

I wholeheartedly disagree about replayability of Marvel Champions. I played the core box 40 times before even touching the expansions and would have happily played just the core many more times. The BGG play stats for Champions also back that up. Since it released it's been among the top games in terms of overall plays but also in terms of replays (meaning individual owners play the game many many times in a month.)

[@ajw5388]

I’ve already got about 80 plays of Champions, and I don’t think I’ll ever be tired of it. For me, that’s really a rarity, some of my favorite games ever I’ve only played a dozen or so times.

[@rudigerkipferl4479]

Now that I have both, I really have to go for Legendary which I played way more though I only bought it just two months ago. I agree that Champions might be the one more complex and thematic, but that doesn't help me getting into it - my attempts to play Champions proved ill-fated as I was just sitting there not knowing which card to play and which one to use as a resource, all the while being whipped by Rhino. And though I watched multiple Champions Playthroughs, I was left with a ton of open questions about card interactions that the rules did not have a lot to say about. So in the end, theoretically Champions might be the better game, but it's far less accessible and I think about even selling it in the future.

[@RC-kd3ue]

I'm with Legendary on this. After having a lot of time with both, i have felt i can play champions 2 or 3 times and then discover how to beat the villain. Legendary feels different every time to me since it feels more random.

[@yegods317]

Legendary got 100% better for me once I downloaded the setup app. Click a button for number of players, and go... it tells you a balanced setup with villains and heroes, scheme and mastermind. it's great, and very fast.

[@JimCrimmins]

I wasn't aware of this, and thank you. PSA right here.

[@yegods317]

@@JimCrimmins I don't know if there's more than one, but I can vouch for the one called Smart Randomizer for Marvel Legendary

[@SeanUCF]

Randomizers don't really help in the setup that much though. Sure, they tell you what cards to use, but I can just as easily (and would prefer) to do that myself. The set-up time is atrocious because of all the cards to dig through, shuffling all the different decks together that you need, setting up any special rules for that scheme or mastermind, then having to break all that down when you're done. To be fair, I don't think champions is way better on this front, but it is a little better.

[@rickspray2245]

Just FYI, there is a "legendary setup" app on Google play that is amazing. Not only does it cut setup time down to about 7-10 minutes, if you have labeled dividers for your cards that is. But you can exclude content as you use it, so for ocd people like me, you can know for sure after 150 games you've tried every single card you own. Highly recommended if you want a way to cut down setup time ALOT.

[@chrisgonzales7050]

What is the app called?

[@NycLogics]

If zee says he doesn’t like a game. Means I will love it. I always notice that.

[@malstormgaming]

I like both games a lot. One thing that gives Legendary a slight edge for me is how easy it is to find the expansions.

[@AmatMiguel]

Now that 2 years have passed since this statement, it seems like currently the opposite is true. I can find any and all Marvel Champions decks, but struggle to get even half of the Legendary sets

[@willdawes7912]

I liked the observation that Champions allows you to feel like you are playing that particular superhero, a very thematic element. I would argue that Legendary is stronger in theme in the schemes. I found the success of schemes in Champions to be entirely mathematical, whereas the Legendary schemes are much more thematic (see Clone Wars, Dark Phoenix Saga, Kidnapping Ruby Summers).

[@XpVersusVista]

The thing with Legendary that most people seem to miss, is that you play SHIELD itself. You coordinate and order a strike on villains that are causing damage. You are (somewhat) playing Nick Fury (even though he is available as a card aswell), telling which group should go where to fight whom, and using your influence and money to make heroes compliant (recruiting them). In the video they said "you play a deck of cards" but you are playing the one responsible for the logistics behind SHIELD operations.

[@torlumnitor8230]

Do you still feel that way now with what has been in the campaign boxes for Champions?

[@panda5996]

That is Champions downfall too. Each hero are stuck with specific play style. Limits replaysbility. You go into a game with a hero against a boss with very specific strategy in mind. You will keep doing that trick that every time. Legendary on the other hand . You got lots of options… you have your favorite playstyle. But your card is just not coming up for recruit. Then the boss KO Your combo cards. That’s why you gotta adapt and change strategy based on villains and heroes available.

[@williamgarcia-medina9989]

Love both but I’m still a legendary head.

[@chrissteedley]

I like champions but like you I am legendary all the way

[@jecabreradc]

Great video, thanks for the comparison.

[@jacksonbrickmedia939]

I feel like if you compare just the base games than champions would win, but if you played using all the expansions for both games than legendary is best in my book. As someone who has a little less than half of the legendary expansions, they add so many layers to this game and make it really something to behold, where champions expansions do not change the game as much I feel.

[@Sammo212]

Champions feels like the theme matters and makes sense. Legendary just feels like its a system with Marvel artwork on top. "Let's throw a new expansion out, what haven't we done?" Plenty of my friends buy every single Marvel Legendary set so I never felt compelled to buy ANY of them. I own the Big Trouble in Little China Legendary game so I don't expect I'll buy any Legendary game every again...that one is enough for me. I also think that for an LCG Marvel Champions doesn't feel like its draining me of money. I don't need each character...I buy who I like so that means I'm spending $20'ish every...4 months or so. Also, I only need ONE copy of the core set opposed to needing to buy TWO of the core set to make what I want in Arkham Horror LCG. Compare this to Arkham Horror LCG where it feels like that if you want to play through a story you are going to spend something like $50-60. DC Deckbuilder is fun but I own 2 big expansions, the big box, and 2 small expansions...I think I have enough of it.

[@foofire72]

I really like both. If I had to choose it would be Legendary.

[@bittner75]

I haven’t played Legendary so I can’t say which I like better. I have been enjoying Champions a lot though. Love the look and how easy it is to get started. I keep diving in deeper with switching up the decks to see how they play. Super fun!

[@ChrisJensenDK]

Bought and played Legendary as I like deck builders. After two playthroughs, I never touched it again and ended up selling it. I’ve been hooked on Marvel Champions ever since it released, and is easily in my top 3 games released last year

[@Kain652]

Yeah, but why?

[@SILVERF0X13]

I'm kinda the same way. I haven't bought into Champions yet, but I've watched a lot of gameplay. I have Legendary and have only really played it about 4 times. The setup took forever, it didn't feel thematic to me almost at all, and the lack of different artwork on the cards was really annoying to know what I had in hand at a glance (glad they fixed that after to core set, but I only own the core set). I like Champions more because you get to play as the characters and have abilities that are at least loosely themed off of who you are playing. I also like that you can switch up which aspect you want to play with to change the focus of your deck while still playing the same character. I get why people aren't into it though. LCGs tend to be more complex by their nature, and that makes it really hard to just sit someone down and play it with them if they haven't done it before. Deck builders tend to be a lot better for the casual player. If I want a deck builder though, there's lots of better ones these days in my opinion. I highly recommend Moonrakers.

[@ZakiJeppe]

Awesome Mike. Finally a DC fan on the Dice Tower. Legendary came out in 2012 :O I like both but prefer Champions. I want DC Champions though

[@joshsimons7214]

DC is the best! I way prefer DC’s characters to Marvel.

[@philbarnett6613]

Batman 'Arkham (Horror) Asylum'... what a game that could be. Detective meets Super Hero. I'll just leave that there. Pretty sure I'm not the first to wish for this :)

[@billjensen51]

Yes! But would only need super man then play his card then win the game. That would make a nice quick game and wouldn't have to worry about strategy or that kind of nonsense.

[@coreymease7851]

At 14:20 you say that Champions has more functionality in that the main bad guy can flip and do more damage in certain phases or you fight a team and that Legendary doesn't have that. Legendary has added those features. The X-Men set (and others that have the lower potential for this) has villains that become masterminds, there are some schemes that place multiple masterminds in play, the Hulk and S.H.I.E.L.D. sets have transforming/adapting masterminds. There are epic masterminds to change difficulty. So both games have those features if you choose to utilize them.

[@jamescupelli6902]

Legendary was ok... just never felt like I was playing a hero... just combos... Champions feels like you are playing the hero...

[@xthatwhiteguyx]

In Marvel Legendary, you are pretty much a high level Shield agent, or director, ordering heroes to attack.

[@micolopez3016]

This is exactly how I set the thematic of Legendary when I teach new players how to play haha

[@cjfrank8364]

I've got almost everything for Legendary but i have been noticing its lack of theme lately. I'm holding off until I can buy the captain america expansion for Champions, then I'll get that and try it out

[@larrye]

I really don't want to support anything related to Asmodee at this time, so I'm staying away for now. The thing I worry about with Marvel Champions is each character you play has a specific way to play it efficiently. Yeah you can mix up some different cards in the deck but overall it seems each character has an optimal style. Once you know that path it's just a matter of playing the character that way over and over.

[@nicksbordone5271]

It is cooperative, so you don't need to pick the most optimal deck possible. If you are worried that each hero is only effective with one of the four aspects, that's just not true. Although each hero has special cards that usually make them effective with a specific aspect, they always have other cards that can work with other aspects.

[@ccggenius]

What's wrong with Asmodee?

[@larrye]

@@ccggenius it's been all over board game news sites about their policy changes. Surprised you haven't heard but just do a little research and you'll find a lot about dissatisfied gamers.

[@apalesch1]

Set-Up Time: is Champions so much less time? LCG's (and CCG's) tend to have a lot of deck-building time, just not at game night. Roy said you just need to hand everyone a deck and go, but how much time do people put into making those decks and is it longer than pre-making Legendary games?

[@ajw5388]

Champions is the quickest LCG I’ve ever played in so far as set up and take down. If it’s your jam you can take the time to really tweak decks just right, but the game is perfectly playable just smashing together a hero and an aspect deck and get right into the game.

[@seandugger9649]

Adam Only if you play with the same build every single time. I keep trying different builds for different characters every time but I don’t enjoy deck building so I have to look online for a random aggression build for Iron Man or whatever and then sort through the cards to add them to my deck. Sure, I could use the same build every single time, but then that would negate all the new cards that would be added with every new mini expansion.

[@TurtleDude05]

When I play MC solo, it only takes me about 5-10 minutes max to break down and rebuild totally different decks. (Heros and Villians.) So yeah. I think it is much faster than legendary. Even when playing with other people It's not much time in between games at all.

[@ajw5388]

Sean Dugger What I do is I try to tweak each aspect deck to be the best that it can be and then I either pair the best one with the best hero for the situation, or I just pair everything randomly and see if I’m up for the challenge. You definitely could spend a ton of time between games tweaking everything just right for the specific scenario, but all I was saying is that the game is perfectly playable (and winnable) without going through all that trouble.

[@LabrnMystic]

I prefer legendary. Same reason that Zee point it out. You don't have to know the deck as well. I also have a few friends that want to play competitively, so it is a point grab as well as save the world. (The contrived reason is each of us is the set of five heroes from different worlds, to see which world's superheroes are better)

[@poox7894]

In my honest opinion I like legendary because first of all there is more cards and second I just like the design of the cards better so yea

[@garys4067]

With one exception, I have always avoided CCGs and LCGs, because of the crazy (for me) amount of money that gets spent on them. I can own a whole bunch of phenomenal games for the same amount of money. The one exception for me is Lord of the Rings: The Card Game, because I love the theme. And even then, I only bought the base game and the eight saga expansions. I avoided the money pit of all the other big expansions, the 6 adventure packs for each one, and the nightmare decks.

[@torlumnitor8230]

The co-op LCG's have the advantage of being co-op. You don't need to buy all the packs to have a good time. And with the marvel packs mostly being prbuilt hero decks there really is no need to buy everything.

[@c-gunz4482]

Where can I get the dividers seen@15:35 of the video? Been looking for some and can't seem to find any

[@goodsound4756]

I own both but much prefer legendary. It’s thematic, has some deck building and is more interesting mechanically. I prefer playing Arkham horror LCG over Marvel Champions.

[@mattvucu6706]

How did I miss this video … great job!

[@Wonderflonium]

Really enjoy these re-roll videos...looking forward to more!!

[@jacksonbrickmedia939]

Champions reminds me a lot of sentinels of the multiverse.

[@willomalley7619]

Love legendary, it is Ben a gateway game for my play group. It's simple enough that my wife will play it with me. And I really like the cooperative nature of the game even if it ramps up quickly you can still recover. Also players getting to pick the heroes to add to the duck gets them invested in the game and I think that helps. Parentheses I often break the number of heroes rule if it is not affected by the scheme and print assays

[@trieditgal5764]

Is Legendary fun to play with 2 people? Is Champion?

[@joshsimons7214]

I’d like to hear Zee talk about marvel champions versus Arkham horror LCG.

[@bodybagbilly]

For a long while I called Marvel Legendary my favorite game. I loved the characters and the nearly infinite combos. Then about the time that Legendary Secret Wars came out I started to get bored with it. Now the game just feels too random to me to be fun. The strategy usually boils down to "Play all of your cards. Buy the most expensive hero card you can afford. If you have enough strength, hit the villain. Otherwise, kill the henchmen card that is the worst for your team." Champions has actual choices in what you put into your deck, and which cards you play. It may be thin right now, but lets see what people think about it after a year. They are releasing a 'story box' soon which might have a AH style mini-campaign, and the card pool keeps on expanding on a month to month basis. I'm also hoping that with the 'Aspect' part of each hero deck only being 20-25 cards, it will soon get harder and more up to personal taste which cards you use instead of being 'Solved' with the 'best' cards.

[@SeanUCF]

I actually disagreed with that part of their analysis that every situation has a "best" solution. I find myself constantly struggling with various choices and decisions on how what cards to play. Drawing from a randomized deck and villains forcing you to burn cards from the top of your deck still makes it random enough to keep the game from becoming a solvable puzzle.

[@aaronclark7687]

Haven't had a chance to play legendary yet, but I'm in love with Champions. I think the theme is pretty strong, but it does lack story when compared to some of the other LCGs. I really appreciate the thoughtful design of each hero. They all feel very unique which adds to replayability. I also love the deck construction prior to playing and the potential to have a hero to be built around 4 different aspects.

[@jukeboxhero30]

Ive played both games at great length and actually just repurchased Legendary after getting rid of it a while back because of playing Marvel Champions. While they both have their pros and cons, Champions feels decidedly more like a gamer's game since you build your deck beforehand and have to work out the combos yourself. Also, Champions is cool because of the combos you can pull off, but its a toss up whether you will be able to or not since the game isn't always very rewarding. Most games I felt like I spent more time playing the villain turn rather than doing cool things myself. Legendary is old. VERY old. I think there are definitely better deckbuilders out there. It does feel like its much more forgiving to someone entering in though as you don't necessarily need to do so much reading and you have much more you get to do on your turn. But this is just my opinion.

[@riyasiizzedeen724]

LCG's all sound great ai love to play them but sitting down building decks really scares i feel i can never get them right and hence i don't play them as much

[@CabinBoyProductions]

This is what I love about deck builders and the endless combos of legendary, I feel like I'm discovering interactions instead of crafting them

[@torlumnitor8230]

that is what netdecking is for.

[@MikeDV34]

I wish I understood what they mean by theme. I find both games very thematic. Heroes vs villains,.good vs. evil...characters all act differently and act as you think they would. It's just a weird thing to me. I feel like not finding theme in games like these means a lack of imagination.

[@devincenatiempo2238]

Michael DallaValle I think when they speak of theme they are asking “Do the mechanics in the game make sense with the things are happening in the game story?”

[@jonathangillies6531]

I really enjoy both and have a few expansions of each. Champions feels more thematic but Legendary feels more epic and I like that it’s more casual so my less hardcore gamer family and friends can enjoy it too. For that reason Legendary hits the table more for me. Also the character selection is better in Legendary by far. I can play as my favourite heroes Punisher and Cable in Legendary but going to be years before I get them in Champions.

[@screamingblue7]

I've been playing Legendary for a few years now, enjoyed it, but having just picked up Champions I find it has a better thematic feel - you KNOW that your are playing Spider-Man. I like that Champions has clearer organization and it really reminded me of Sentinels of the Multiverse in the set up and mechanics. Champions also felt more team play, even if playing Legendary co-op, there aren't many mechanics to help others. I will give a point to Legendary over Champions for the box set up. Legendary had decent room for the core, header cards (generic as they are), and a bit of room for expansions. Champions had no nifty board to organize the cards with (though one can be picked up as additional merch) or header cards (thank you BGG for links to those), and the cardholding insert is just generic and ill suited to the number of different ways there are to sort those cards. Enjoyed both, for their own reasons but have found that the deciding factor has been who I have at the table playing them. (side note - I'm a big fan of DC Crisis edition for that deck builder game over the standard DC Deck Builder play, I'm gonna search your archives for a review of that one).

[@CALISSE2010]

The way I understand it(Never played Champions), the big difference is you have to buy the heroes to create your deck in legendary. In champions, you start the game with a full deck?

[@CabinBoyProductions]

I love legendary but stopped playing regularly about a year ago (almost exclusively solo). But then I picked up Champions.....and it made me want to play Legendary again. At this point, I do feel more replayability with Legendary than Champions, especially with online league communities and homebrew legacy campaigns. When a campaign box for champions is released, I'll pick it up and might fully switch over

[@adamgordon7648]

I'd love to see some discussion of Marvel Champions vs Sentinels of the Multiverse?

[@kamb26]

Tom: “I feel like this deck isn’t different from the others.” Me: wow. Welp check out Ant Man, Wasp, and Quicksilver. Those heroes add mechanics that we haven’t seen before. Quicksilver can ready a ridiculous amount of times. Ant Man and Wasp have 2 hero sides. I dunno. All of the heroes feel really fresh. The hook of the deck might be the same sure but each deck feels unique and feels like you are that hero.

[@thedicetower]

To be fair, I said this before all those decks were announced. I was wrong, I'll admit it.

[@kamb26]

@@thedicetower no worries Tom. 😆 thanks for the reply. Love the channel.

[@GabrielConlledo]

Legendary I own both... but I am with Tom with the format for Champions.

[@soerenheriksen]

These games are odd picks for a versus video. Deckbuilding vs lcg is so different that it is hard to compare what works best in either. A much better versus would be arkham horror tcg vs marvel. You can really get into the details of what makes them work well/not so well in comparison. The missing campaign in marvel is a detriment for me in that comparison. I think you should stick to games with a shared central mechanism.

[@jangofouts]

Odd picks indeed. “They are both Marvel, they are both card games...let’s do a versus video!”

[@philbarnett6613]

I'll set up a couple of games for Legendary (prior to the event and take them with me) and it's a great evening. Liking Champions, but it's very different and a LOT more 'rules heavy' and is, in no way, as accessible as Legendary. I like them both, but they a very different games. Would I play other games instead? Yes, of course... but that's a different discussion. If someone says "play Legendary" or say "play Champions" my answer will be yes on both counts. No regrets investing in either :)

[@AmyLou79]

I want Marvel Champions so bad! It’s my next purchase for sure!

[@smooth122]

Legendary fan here but maybe would try champions

[@Bodyknock]

Champions is good but I like Legendary better. Legendary is my go-to solo board game, either one handed or two-handed. I like deck building games more than collectible card style games, the variety of combinations of setups in Legendary is insane, and I can easily setup and play a game of it in under an hour.

[@wandizs4665]

Is it worth solo play?

[@Bodyknock]

@@wandizs4665 I play Legendary Marvel solo all the time. It works both playing two hands by yourself or playing the Advanced Solo Mode in the rulebook with just one hand.

[@wandizs4665]

@@Bodyknock but there are cards/heroes you can't play with solo right? For example, there are card that tell you to involve other player like discarding/take something from other player hand. Is that card is completely dead/unused in solo mode? I read some card, many cards that I think it will useless if you play solo.

[@Bodyknock]

@@wandizs4665 Cards that say "other player" are fine. - If you are playing a two hand game by yourself it works normally. A card that says "other player" just refers to the other hand. - If you're playing advance solo mode, then cards that say "other player" affect you. So if a card says "Other players discard a card" then you discard a card.

[@micahhoffman3519]

Agreed Mike. I prefer DC much more than Marvel. Legendary is just so difficult to get on the table because the setup is just so tedious.... and at this point I don’t like any of the characters in champions

[@suorastas1]

Legendary is as thematic as you want it to be. Wife and I are currently playing through all the Avengers films (and Civil War) and it has been a hoot. If you use a randomizer every time I can see why it wouldn’t feel very thematic.

[@orlandosolano209]

Own both and love both ..but if I had to pick one it’d champions easily

[@dantuck3277]

Champions, I love Arkham horror lcg. Is was like 2/3 the rules of that. Very easy to pick up and setup. Also clean up is easier

[@Stevetr0n]

At the moment I would probably give Legendary the nod for replay-ability, but I feel like this may change a lot this fall when the story box comes out for Champions.

[@redbeansdice6151]

Awesome to get 4 people's view in one video of 2 different games with a good amount of experience. Loved the caption on Roy😂

[@banusuryinmuskogeeoklahoma6626]

Hahah your profile name is awesome!

[@redbeansdice6151]

@@banusuryinmuskogeeoklahoma6626 youre welcome

[@Lwilibert]

can someone explain to me why a game with Marvel as theme would need crowdfunding?

[@apalesch1]

I'm gonna assume it's because they have to pay Disney to use the Marvel theme.

[@VaultBoy13]

Because it was CMON and how else are they going to get people to buy into a bunch of expansions without ever having played the game?

[@Lwilibert]

@@VaultBoy13 By providing prototipe PnP files like many companies do even when their games are not supported by one of the biggest IP i can think of today.

[@thrawncaedusl717]

Many larger boardgame companies treat crowdfunding as preorders, and IMO make it worthwhile for customers to preorder with bonus incentives. In general, I actually like the system, but you do have to understand that it is not a “true Kickstarter” project.

[@Lwilibert]

@@thrawncaedusl717 got it, thanks!

[@Redlady1917]

Legendary is far cheaper for what you get, allows for fun and satisfying deck building, has nearly infinite replayability. LCG's have a deck making component which is less fun for me. I'd never invest in champions, and I actually got into legendary while they were both out.

[@ajw5388]

I love both games, but Champions has really swept in and stolen my proverbial heart. It’s just such a quick set up and play for a solo gamer, and it really captures the theme well. Legendary is a great deck builder and I really enjoy that game, but for me the theme doesn’t come out as much and that set up time really is just brutal.

[@Darkangelus429]

I've loved the deckbuilding genre for a long time. My first deckbuilder i ever played was Thunderstone Advance and i thought it was such a cool concept. Every player starts with the same deck of cards and you make it stronger as you play the game. Legendary has been a fantastic game in my opinion. Champions however has been a very interesting ride for me since it's my first LCG and it was getting good reviews and i decided to give it a shot. Especially since you can play solo and i tend to play solo more. As a solo game, I think Champions is better. My main gripe at the current moment is that i feel that if i don't get every expansion, i'm gonna miss out on certain cards and deck possibilities whereas Legendary, i only got a few expansions mainly getting the characters i wanted. Legendary i wouldn't play with any more than 3 players, and Champions 2. I feel those are the magic numbers for multiplayer. End of the day though, both games are great and i'll play either depending on what mood i'm in.

[@CrystalblueMage]

For the Legendary scaling maybe something like this: Rapid Action - You may at any time during your turn as many time as you wish look at the top card of your deck and either put it back or put it into your discard pile, this will not cause a reshuffle. 3 Player - The last player to act can do a rapid action on their first turn 4 Player - All players can do a rapid action on their first turn 5 Player - All players can do a rapid action on their first two turns It's not just worded to reshuffle before the draw, to not break wallcrawl. Haven't tried it, but it might be an idea. It _is_ a bit sad this is just a 2 or 3 players game for real. 10 villain cards before you even have a chance to draw any bought card is harsh!

[@nickvandam1214]

Basically do you want a deck builder or a deck construction game. I'm more interested in deck building as I play the game so Legendary is the obvious winner between the two for me.

[@douglaspearson4853]

I love both games. I am more in the Roy camp. What surprised me with Tom was how he loved Legendary but originally hated DC deckbuilding almost for the same reason. I have legendaary Marvel, Alien, Preditor and James Bond. With Champioms its taken me a while more to get into. Legendary the plus is is faster to get onto. My problem was everybody playing the same characters. I do go in with forgeting that and just having the fun. It works. Marvel Champions the down side for me is it is so easy to make mistakes because of how you read the cards (some times confusing) and I some things I forget. Which does not happen in Legendary. I only just started getting into MC. To be good you have to know your cards and how and when to use them. MC plus's are the customizing you can play one character thousands of times and it will never feel the same. The Aspecs in this reguard, the side schemes, if you play two played solo adds another demention. I think there is a place for both in my collection.

[@petergross7235]

100% agree with Mike. I do not really like either game a lot. But Legendary felt better since I am used to deck builders and felt constrained with Champions deck tuning choices.

[@atticusfinch9287]

Marvel Legendary was released in 2012, which is eight years ago not five. It was the second game i bought after Pandemic. Still ML is my favorite game.

[@wyrdhunter]

"Unlike Old Man Mike, I grew up on CCGs..." Or at least, that's what I heard in my mind. And it's not really wrong... :D

[@Otterpawp]

Shut up and Sit down did an excellent review of Marvel Champions. I personally think Marvel Champions has a lot more game and theme to it than Legendary, but I also think Legendary is not only boring, but the base game is pretty hideous to look at. Champions also has some amount of co-op to it and it really does feel like a cooperative game with more focus. However, as SUSD has said, it becomes a math problem the closer you get the the end and you know the game is won about a turn or two before it actually ends. I would have liked to see a bit more theme in the encounter deck and schemes, but sometimes they work really well thematically. That said, in comparison, I find the Cthulhu theme extremely boring, run down, an old beaten dead horse, and just unappealing, but the Arkham Horror LCG feels really good and makes me wish Marvel had something a bit more similar to it. So while I love Marvel and Hate Cthulhu, I find it easier to recommend AH LCG to gamers that don't have a bias to either one.

[@VaultBoy13]

AH LCG and Marvel Champions are disparate experiences. AH is an adventure game. It's narrative heavy, the cards are used to create a map, and the game is much more about discovery and solving things than fighting things. Champions is that superhero match up against a villain. It leans heavily on heroes having unique mechanisms and card combos. The game feels like heroes in an epic battle to stop the villain. The player resolution mechanisms are different. Champions is almost entirely deterministic where AH is generally resolved with bag pulls. Personally, I find Marvel Champions more enjoyable because the deck construction in a single AH LCG core box results in decks that simply feel like the player is floundering. There's just not a whole lot of synergy which makes everything feel very dependent on deck luck and bag pulls. Marvel Champions just feels like a complete core box, which goes a lot farther in selling the game for me.

[@stevejez194]

Obligatory disclaimer: Legendary is a staple in my home. With Champions, Marvel wanted to refresh the card game market and milk as much money as possible. Marvel Champions Hero Pack - $15, 1 hero, 40 cards; Marvel Legendary small box - $15, 5 new heroes, 2 new villain groups, 2 new masterminds, 4 new Schemes, 100 cards. In terms of a business model, for the variety of a Legendary expansion, Champions would net: 5 heroes x $15 and roughly 2 scenario packs x $30 for a total of $135. It's fair to disagree with that exact comparison. Even if it were just 1 hero and 1 scenario pack, that's $45 vs. $15. These prices get worse as the Champions packs go out of print. As time goes on and more come out, it will get worse. If I want to get the Green Goblin pack right now it is $45. That's crazy As a consumer (especially one who already owns Legendary), I am not enticed to spend that money.

[@albertdo6194]

Steve Jez thanks a lot for this. because of the recent quarantine i’ve been looking into a lot of board/card games and i’ve been stuck on whether i should play legendary or champions. this definitely helped make my decision.

[@maomao180]

Two very different games to me, the only similarities are Marvel and cards.

[@imageofyouth]

I showed up very late to the party with Marvel Legendary (just a couple months ago) and only have the base set, but my wife and I both love it! It's great in that once people understand deckbuilding, it's a breeze for just about anyone to play, but generates more exciting moments than, say, Dominion, which we're also big fans of. It's a great game to draw newcomers in with the theme, and most people sort of innately get drawn in by the appeal of building up a stronger and stronger deck-engine. I do find we like to play competitively though, as the base game on its own is absurdly easy to win. If we played co-op there would be zero tension. I imagine people saying co-op only are playing with the harder expansions or variants?

[@vertuhonagan7041]

I love both of these games, I own everything for Marvel Champions and slowly building up to the full collection of Legendary. While I love them both, Legendary is the top dog for me. Both games are deck builders, just different deck building time. In Marvel Champions, you're building your decks before you choose a villain and character to play with. In legendary, you're deck building after choosing your villain and characters. Marvel Legendary is by far the easier of the 2 to build a deck for and way less time consuming. Yes, after each game you have to separate everything out, but it's far easier than having to revamp characters, or build decks in Marvel Champions when your getting the next set or next batch of characters and find cards in those sets that will really buff your favorite characters. It can take hours and hours building decks in Champions and even then you build duds because not all cards are good and not all characters are good. Some characters in Marvel Champions are just downright duds, while in Legendary at least the characters can be semi-good if you're able to pair them with good combos. Maybe I just prefer the more casual, simple play of Legendary, as Champions is vastly more complex, and a lot of times very dependent on your upgrades and supports. If you don't get the required upgrades/supports, you've pretty much lost within a few turns and that can be more daunting than getting a slow start in Legendary. Also, just advice to anyone that plays Legendary, when you're putting away your villains, go ahead and store them with their required villain group. It makes setting up games WAY faster than having to sort everything and find everything. I store all of my stuff in simple ways that makes setup take less than 3 minutes.

[@AJ-nc4vr]

Y'all getting pretty COSY round that corner! :D

[@timchatterton]

Really should have waited for Rise of Red Skull to come out before this video in my opinion.

[@SomewhatAwesomeGames]

Champions all the way baby!

[@tttopolis]

Played Legendary several years ago and was just sort of ho hum with the whole thing, i REALLY like Champions for its ability to play as your own unique hero and attribute's. To me the customization is really enjoyable!!

[@WinSomeLoosemore]

I prefer Legendary for the reason Zee gave at the end, it's been out long enough that I can just buy the characters/sets I want to include in my game based on who I know I like.

[@SeanUCF]

The problem I have with that is that it never really feels like you are "playing" that character though, so it almost doesn't even matter who you pick.

[@greyhawke115]

I like both quite a bit, but I am more likely to pull out Champions.

[@joshroberts8278]

Both are two of my favorites

[@CharlesEtheridgeNunn]

I like both so far. Legendary has a lot of the deep but superheroes these days, but hopefully Champions will catch up once its got all the MCU folks out of its system. I prefer the ability to ‘be’ a hero in Champions and put off buying Legendary for ages because it lacked that touch. Even so, the system for Legendary is good enough that it bypassed that concern. I have been more of a completionist of Champions because of the slow-ish releases and how early it is, while I’ve felt fine ignoring some Legendary releases like Deadpool, Fear Itself and Venom. I don’t know whether I’ll do the same in Champions or not... I guess they can test me by releasing an Inhumans expansion and I’ll see whether I still have to pick it up or not.

[@chukniloc]

Awesome Spiderman on the back!!!

[@bchccc]

Legendary here but very curious about Champions

[@fredericbarbe]

Marvel Legendary is super fun solo, for me at least. I own and keep both!

[@TheBoardMeeting]

Marvel champions is a game that I still break out probably once every two weeks for a couple quick matches.

[@jamescartwright1150]

I only own Marvel Champions and enjoy it a lot. I do own Legendary Encounters: Alien and play it occasionally but if Marvel Legendary is similar I don't think I would like it as much as Champions due to setup and teardown time. I also enjoy Marvel Champions compared to other LCG's like Lord of the Rings as you can at the moment pick and choose what you get but with something like LotR you had to buy each pack to get all the cards to complete the adventure.

[@JonTalbain777]

I invested in MLeg around the first big expansion, and own about 80% of it, I think. I got a ton of mileage out of it, a lot of solo, taught it to a few friends for some 2 and a little 3 player. But lately I have to agree it does feel a bit tired and can play a little samey. Even so, I think it still fits the Marvel slot in my collection and I'm just not interested in what I've seen from MChamp. I like the single hero decks thematically, but LCGs just remind me too much of my MTG money sink days. I also disagree with Tom. I think the art (post-core set) is generally better in Legendary. Setup and breakdown does such though.

[@levenzaha]

this is wild. Marvel Champions is in Zee's top 10 now?

[@baronleonard571]

I think everyone has their own preferences and that's alright. I still love Marvel Legendary more than any Marvel board games, but only have some of the expansions because I just collect heroes / team that I like the most. Besides; I'm not a collector. Well, to each our own. :)

[@DiggetyDog46]

Here I am waiting for a COMPETITIVE Marvel game. :/ Hoping Marvel Villainous is great!

[@lebeaulacdesjeux]

Did they change their minds since then ?

[@corrado8955]

Legendary should be played 100% as a Co-op. Played the semi coop once and it just isn’t as fun. You’re a super hero team not a bunch of mercenaries. That being said I do like counting heads every game a la Legolas/Gimli.

[@John-js2uj]

How does Marvel Champions compare with LotR LCG?

[@faye13l]

Love Legendary... Especially the X-Men expansion. Have only played Champions once but enjoyed it. Still waiting for one of my favourite characters for Legendary... Pixie!!

[@letsroll2001]

Champions for theme and pregame deckbuilding.

[@sdeeyoktar8442]

is there any game similar in mechanics to champions?

[@manonfire4jc]

What is lcg?

[@kevinm2832]

Living Card Game