SAILBOAT REFIT: Cockpit Projects [E48]

[@everwind5691]

Matt, from an ergonomic viewpoint, cranking on the winches you want your arm to be chest height as your "pull" is your strongest/best option. Standing over the wench and bending is not good for your lower back and puts you in a more dangerous position. The standing over crank method will put excessive forces on your lower back and spine. And for folks that are not as strong (children/women) that don't have as much upper body strength can by cranking with the winch handle at chest height people can lean back on the pull and use their body weight as an assist. Also agree with others too close to steering wheel. Plenty of potential for crushing injuries and the lines to get tangled with the wheel if they need to be released quickly when tacking in heavy weather. Can you tell I am a safety engineer and a sailor? Walk the piers where the big sailboats are and take a closer look at how their wenches are arranged and heights. A seat pan of height around 20-22" is pretty standard and a back angle of around 10 degrees is pretty good ergonomics wise. Seat an depth varies but you want about 2-3" clearance between the back of your knee and the seat pan edge which ideally should be a slight waterfall type.

[@uncannyvalleywoods7248]

There's nothing wrong with marinating on an aspect of a project, especially if the entire project has a long time table. Follow the things you feel confident about and tackle them as you marinate on things like cockpit layout. You never know when you're going to bolt upright at 3AM and have a decidedly confident plan. Give it some time. You've got plenty of boat there. ;-)

[@scott32570]

That winch looks to be prone for knuckle busting on the wheel being so close. You may have just enough clearance now, but that’s before it round bar for the wheel, and you are in a rush with a storm moving in quick. Let alone trying to stand inboard and really going at it fast your elbow will be in the wheel as you are trying to grind unless you put your back to the sails.

[@dianagrosser4202]

Or if you’re wearing gloves

[@allgonquin]

And for two handed grinding which is likely for a headsail.

[@victorvillenapenas4274]

Yep, I suggested the same back then, 100% elbow buster

[@periplous2213]

Get a shorter handle?

[@michaelblazecka7150]

Make the cutout for the winch U-shaped and extending all the way outboard. Then you have a self draining hole and can place the winch more outboard for a better fairlead

[@ohforgodsake8486]

I think you're doing it the right way deffo. Spend thousands of hours thinking, mocking up, designing, getting comfortable with positioning. Before you start wasting your time on expensive refits 😁 I've just started watching the videos and I think its great. You're living the life that the rest of us want to live.

[@abhvgas]

when making a tool, you first design in function, then beauty follows. and that is in the eye of the beholder.

[@TotalBoat]

You are doing GREAT things, and we know it will come together to be amazing! Keep up the good work!

[@joelbrown4110]

Don't forget about seat cushions that you might be standing on when you are grinding.

[@mattl7886]

A little trick I learned with the basting bag technique when applying wood epoxy to a project... wrap the excess ziploc baggy around a piece of 3/4" dowel rod and roll it as you expend the bag contents. It eliminates the need to stop and squeegee glue or epoxy back up to the tip.

[@sv.scintilla]

Right... try making an island forward of the wheel that extends the coaming 90 degrees and boxes out the end of the seats and is just wide enough for your sheet winches. Mount your sheet winches on the island. them cut cubbies in the island. This allows you to stand over them and trim from the helm while you are in the cockpit as opposed to sitting outboard or to get a crew to do it while you stay out of the way. I have had this cockpit before and loved it. Also, consider bringing the angle of the deck line back into the coaming and use round wedges under the winches to get them to the right angle.

[@richhudnut5110]

grinding position when healing is hard to simulate, but I know that having the stanchions land in between the winches really helps anchor your outboard foot

[@abhvgas]

welcome to to the world of KZbin. that said, most viewers understand and admirer what you and Matt are accomplishing. keep your heading..steady as she go's

[@CaptRR]

Me personally I still think he's crazy at least economically and timewise. But also rooting him on. Hope he's able to get it done and get a great boat. Don't get me wrong, its not something I would ever do, but as long as its making him happy, and he's not hurting anyone, why wouldn't you be rooting for him. Plus its fun content to watch.

[@abhvgas]

@@CaptRR hopefully by 2024 50% of Americans will realize how economically stable our lives were, and all the perceived fears were just that. i miss a strong economy, and no wars. now all we have death and taxes. some people have to see with their own eyes before they relies they been lied too. hopefully its not too late.

[@henryrourke1451]

Really worth considering ‘winch buckets’ / recesses for mounting. I’m sure you have, but it allows you to locate the winches at whatever heights and angles you prefer and still have your other coaming features (side deck width etc) more or less as you prefer. We used buckets to get our leads and winch heights where we wanted (for some Antal XT66 winches) and it gave us a greater degree of freedom in other choices.

[@dunkie976]

If you move the sunken winch slightly outboard you'd negate the need for drainage too. Since you are building the whole thing, you'd also have the option to can't the winch over a little to help with line routing. Looking good guys, love the channel.

[@ECL..]

That’s a really efficient way of mixing and applying thickened epoxy, thanks for the tip

[@trep53]

Quite the challenge getting the cockpit correct. Somehow Matt, I believe you’ll get this right.

[@MrFatalZero]

On our boat (Dehler Optima 101) they designed specific winch recesses at the right height & angle for maximum comfort during winch usage. I've always loved the ergonomics on our (older van der Stadt design) Dehler boats. Creating such shapes is ofcourse harder to make, but comfort of use is a joy you will experience with each use. Love the build, you are making huge progress. Take time to think it through, rapid prototyping is the key to new insights and makes you more comfortable with the eventual solution! ⛵❤👍👍

[@kingfisherfd2]

Love seeing Joel Cummins music getting used in your video.

[@donnakawana]

The recessed winch is nice but the height of a winch is for a purpose. You want to remember your hands wrists an elbows. Plus a winch is a thing of beauty... She's looking great. Oh I agree with the size of the bigger wheel you can always get a collapsing wheel for more room when not at sail .. Amazing when you think building a boat is half work an half ponder.... Giving a think to each plan is how it's done!!✌🏼💗😊

[@aaronp1434]

Hello from Ontario Canada, I have to agree with others about the closeness of the winch to the wheel creating knuckle or elbow busters…. UNLESS, you swap out that winch for an electric one- no grinding, easier trimming while tending the wheel. Also, in regards to your concern over how to lead the lines to the winches, you could initially install a short job track and sea trial with cars to fine tune your angles, then if desired you can later go to a permanent mounted solution. I really like that you’re taking your time to think things through and trial running with mock ups since this is where all the action and most of your time will be spent under sail! One other point I hope you take into account will be the height of the boom, if you’re standing on the side deck at the wheel when the boom comes across (intentionally or accidentally) that can be a skull buster/man overboard situation pretty quick! Cheers Aaron

[@zackworrell]

I wish I was smart like you. congrats on seeing your dream out!

[@TheDuracellProject]

my guess is that you're not giving yourself enough credit. and please know that i am making mistakes and learning tons as i go!

[@Myrddraal79]

That look at 1:25 is pure gold!!!

[@eroleyikan]

Matt, I love your work! On the cockpit design there is a hybrid approach between what you are thinking and what the designer from Greece suggested. If you were to move the dual helms aft, the step to climb up to the side deck can be between the helm and the long cockpit seats. One advantage would be that at least one of your vinches could be usable standing up just like Skip Novak designed his cockpit layout. If you saw his boat tour he is pointing out the benefits of that. I sail my Hinckley Bermuda 40 at home and I am very picky about may things. I also charter some newer boats elsewhere. Getting on the side deck without stepping on the cockpit seats is really a great feature on the newer boats that I do not have on my B40. Dufour 47 that came out last year has a cockpit design where you step to the side deck in front of the helm and behind the cockpit seats. I have been on that boat and it is really nice in this respect (I still would not trade it for my b40 of course). Just a thought to consider. I hope it helps. And whatever you do we will love it! Cheers Erol

[@TheDuracellProject]

thanks for your thoughts, Erol!

[@patrickgilhooly8340]

We here, So love your boat work !!!! When I think back, of all those years I struggled with fibre Glas cloth and diff. Resins. You truly are a master !! Thank you. Your BOSS is great with the documentation. Too bad We are 76 now or would be inspired to get back at it.

[@TheDuracellProject]

Cheers, Patrick!

[@etiennelaubscher5336]

Just love the process and progress of this exercise. And to hear and see and learn about all the challenges and ideas. It is just a pity that I am not able to show your project to all the singlehanders who competed and sailed with Mike Plant. So many of them have moved on to sail in peace now forever . . . Regards. Etienne Laubscher, South Africa.

[@sailor5026]

Lots and lots of thought... the only thing that frightens me a little bit is standing on the seat on the low side, trimming a jib sheet, facing outward in a seaway. Duracell is powerful, fast, and narrow. Having the top of your torso above the winch will start to put your weight out over the coaming... especially for a novice, this is asking for a crew to tumble out of the boat, especially during a maneuver in extreme conditions. Being lower in the cockpit is always safer, I think.

[@jimeadie4415]

Jib Winch more forward where it can be operated seated is a better solution. Powered winch there eliminates need to be over it normally.

[@billkimbell6190]

Agree - standing on the cockpit seat, even on a big boat, puts your center of gravity way too high.

[@New.Adventures.Sailing]

@15:10, the lead angle is important. On our boat, the port side rubs because it winds clockwise and the starboard there is no contact. So getting the height on those big winches, right is key. They are not symmetrical

[@georgepeat5269iearth]

Great progress from my perspective. You must spend a reasonable amount of time weight checking as you work through these many projects. Amazing effort& faith your keeping!💯👌

[@taffythegreat1986]

When I have to make a decision and I’m a bit indecisive on what to do next. I sit back and look at the job with a nice cup of tea. If I’m still uncertain, I’ll have another nice cup of tea. Sometimes it works, if it doesn’t, it just means I’ve had a nice break 😂. You can do it, good luck 👍👍

[@michaeljefferson2386]

Suggestion. If you want the after winch lower, do not put it in a circular recess. Instead, cut the top of the coaming perpendicular to the seatback and all the way aft to the end of the coaming, and put in a flat floor from the seatback to the outer edge of the coaming and aft to the end of the coaming. Then the base of the winch is fully exposed, and the coaming in the area of the winch is several inches lower. This gives easier access to lead the lines to the winch, greatly improves drainage of the winch, and eliminates trapping dirt, hair, etc, etc in a pocket you cannot easily clean.If you want to put line clutches on the forward side of the winch, the line lead will be very nice, heightwise. Canting the winch outboard a bit as many others suggest is also a great idea. I have a Garcia Passoa 47 (S/V Mouton Noir) and this is how the after winch is set. It both looks good and also works very well. In addition, in really heavy weather you will probably not want to stand over the winch but may have to grind from a kneeling position on the seat. In any case, I am sure you will find an excellent solution. Love the channel! Cheers, Michael

[@flossey100]

The patterning is getting exciting now that it includes functional storage ! Great video thanks.

[@vincentdufour9572]

Hi guys! really nice project, really enjoying the modifications you have been doing. Really cool to see this boat being converted into a cruise boat. Concerning the cockpit, it might be interesting if you have time and the budget for, to build a full mock up heeled 20 deg for exemple, and trimmed allowing you to decide which would be the best solution. Cheers!

[@WAJK2030]

Nice. I wanted to use Squarespace anyway for my new site. Thx! 🤓

[@MrKevin3140]

Being sarcastic but hurry up! I want to fly from hawaii out to my native lands and jump on this boat. I believe i was on this boat when it was docked at one of the piers in seattle as part of a boy scout trip. I am so in love with this project, so many amazing old racing boats that need new life, you have me inspired. Sell the land and sink it into a floating hole in the water might be my next plan!

[@TheDuracellProject]

Cheers Kevin! How cool that you might have been on Duracell back in the day!

[@bobsimon2242]

I'm worried that the aft port winch is too close to wheel. Love your videos and the project. Boy , do I hate working with fiberglass grindings!

[@TAT660X]

CAD is obviously the way to go but it’s great to see PROPER hand drawn plans 😎

[@markgreen7701]

Love the seatback cubbies!!

[@MH55YT]

You sailed the world, so I'm sure you'll make the right decision. I can't wait to see what decision you make. Then in a few years, it will be interesting to see your reflection. Did you make the right decision?

[@2dogsnight]

good to see activities behing the curtains😀

[@WHIKID1]

Loving this project. I can’t wait till the day it gets it’s fresh coat of paint and all the hard work that’s been put in comes together.

[@anneoost4333]

Don’t forget! When sailing with slope, you sit in the sidedeck.

[@jochembeumer2673]

2:50 Gives me Expedition Evans vibes, grinding without a vacuum attached 😅

[@alexsantwyk5732]

Awesome soundtrack for grinding paint, reflects the state of mine nicely, more cat clips please

[@dennisbrok9335]

You could make all of the difficult corners from solid foam and cut/sand it in shape

[@sailingmariposa7887]

The ideas of the cubbies under the coamings is great, makes for great access to install hardware and backing plates too! I would be concerned about the area between winch bases and the cockpit seat backs. It looks like the perfect place for lines to fall into and get wedged in…. Still watching…. the sunken winches seem to help resolve that concern. Cheers

[@mp6756]

So many decisions I wouldn't be able to sleep at night day dreaming in bed. I don't think you can go wrong unless you go wrong lol. Good luck

[@joshuagroom3799]

Have you considered how your cockpit will work at 20 to 30 degrees of heel? It is very different. My thoughts on the winches are that grinding a winch your arms are more or less in the plane of the handle and you need to be able to brace to pull back. For Genoa winching on a heeling boat usually people brace for the pull stroke against the seat back with knee and find a low position where the body falls against something solid if overbalanced due to a wave. I really think that main sheet winch is too close to the wheel. someone needs to be able to grind it furiously through a gybe from the inboard side without their body or hands hitting the wheel.

[@IFGoebel]

Might I suggest the wheel on a pivot in the center so you can have it movable from port to starboard side? Just a thought over having two wheels.

[@jandoodle6769]

I like the cubby’s to, I wish I had that kind of space on my boat

[@v-oneadventure1818]

very very nice trial! Super!

[@berinslaptop]

Most of the time auto pilot will be used. steering and hauling a line on the winch at the same time is not always easy. I would strongly keep it/them to the side or in front of the wheel. Dont forget to keep the side rails in mind when it comes to work area.

[@gordonrobertson4125]

I like the comment about making the winch "bucket" a U shape to self-drain to the side deck. To relieve the problem of line access to the drum, heavily radius the top outboard edge of the coaming. This will also soften the line of the coaming. Not so sure about putting the jamb cleats up near the pilot house edge. They need to be in easy reach of the winch grinder but not in a position where they will be sat on. The genoa winch needs to be within cooee of the wheel for when you have only one person in the cockpit. I take it you will also have an inside steering position for motor sailing and a pocket remote control for the auto-pilot?

[@TheDuracellProject]

We won’t have inside steering. We will definitely have a pocket remote control for the autopilot. I’d like to have a remote that has bow thruster and autopilot on it and throttle.

[@jd-cf1hi]

Thought - when in weather, wearing gloves will you have sufficient clearance between turning the winch and steering … Also, with the slanted cockpit seat, should there be a rain gutter at back to divert buildup of condensation, runoff and water in general? Otherwise, love what you are achieving. Probably not necessary. Beautiful and well thought out design.

[@tightlines601]

Will you be comfortable on the winches at the angles you will be in? As long as you can have your leg out. 😊 thank you so much for your channel and sharing everything. So much work! Amazing

[@hansstoop5381]

The difference on operating a winch on a heel is my 10cts as well... hard to test though.

[@jut7030]

Probably already mentioned by someone already but i doubt you'll be stood on the bench to winch, you'll be kneeling on it. ideally you'd want something to brace yourself against between the back of the wheel and the winch, perhaps bring the combing around behind the wheel.

[@markarmitage8376]

To get a better angle on your sheets, could you form a turret on the side of the coaming to push the winch out a bit? It'll eat into your side deck slightly but probably not by much. Just a thought.... Love the project.

[@TheDuracellProject]

Yeah I could but I do want to keep the side decks wider

[@TheDuracellProject]

Yeah I could but I do want to keep the side decks wider

[@Arnaud58]

@14:52 You're right. It is also possible to tilt the winch a little back- an inwards...

[@christianpalle5837]

You mentioned in an earlier episode that you wanted to have two main sheets going into each winch, care to explain how that works as you only have one main halyard?

[@pmacgowan]

Comming together slowly 🙂

[@patrickmaloney6440]

1:09 That's when all the best designing gets done...

[@tentmaran]

Nice progres Mat... Vacum cleaner might make grinding more conformable.. But than you use a good👍 mask... I like your time sitting and planing... Bit enhoying the progress.. Keep it up awsome project. Great videos. 👍🙂🙂

[@TheDuracellProject]

Thanks!

[@ryancappo]

I still think you need to have some cushion on the back side of the wheels, so someone can lay down and read a book while looking in the same direction the boat is going.

[@jdschlough6450]

Hey nice bulkhead! I learn more every week. AND terrific shooting and editing. Tonight I will lay awake, concerned about the height difference between the combing and the sidedeck and jeez would lowering the bench/combing overall height bring it more in line with the sidedeck. you'd sacrifice storage and a degree of protection. And is there a rig where you can get by with once less winch per side to open up space for grinding? that mainsheet winch seems close to the wheel. And having handles mounted next to one another looks close. I'm still pro GiantRecessedCenterWheelHelm J/60 style. That said, I have no naval architecture or boatbuilding experience of any kind, I am just some guy on the web. I am constantly amazed by what you both are doing, all the best.

[@TheDuracellProject]

"lay awake concerned about height difference" you and me both, JD!

[@andrewdancer8520]

Hi both, loved the progress this week and you gluing the dog house end wall. Re. the coaming / latest mock up etc. is it a good idea to put 12/24v cables below or potentially ducting for the cables in vicinity of winches in case you decide to go electric at some point. Whilst I know a die hard might say WHAT !! electric never, consider if you get slightly hurt ever? And can’t do that quick handle turning for a while. I know I’m older than you, but having used both they are magic and my wife wonders how we managed before assistance. Best Andy D.

[@TheDuracellProject]

We would love an electric winch if we can afford one when the time comes!

[@michaelcanto6175]

Interesting work, you can make a game of it, try running drills for tacking ect.

[@HS29USA1051]

Hey Matt! Just discovered the channel and am super hooked! I spent a year taking an old 46 foot 80's racing boat down to wood and completely redoing the deck and rigging to bring her back to her (better than) original glory. Ive also redone several small 24 foot 1908s racing boats. I'm curious as to the CAD programs you are using and the computer based side of the project. Would love to be able to chat and swap project photos and learn more about your process. Cheers, Haydon

[@TheDuracellProject]

Hi! Sounds like a cool project! I use OnShape, which is a free CAD program. would love to see a couple photos of your project...feel free to send an email!

[@waterbuoy9121]

The width of the side-decks seems to only be an issue towards the stern. Is it not possible to curve th ecockpit benches and backrest slightly to address the issue - that would allow you to retain the higher coaming with the storage and also have a sloping edge to the seaward side of it? It appears that 3" or 75mm would make a difference.

[@vanderschaft1]

perfection sometimes freezes action

[@_blento_2637]

Another one that I like first and then watch. You came under my skin …

[@TheDuracellProject]

thanks :)

[@danwilliams6882]

Make sure those winch handle & hand room are inboard of your lifelines. Don't want to only do half cranks.

[@Brian-os9qj]

Focus grasshopper? I think you’ve got all you’ll need. Fair wind on this endeavor.

[@guillaumel.8610]

I like the recessed winches. Please try to mock it up with a rope, I feel the lip of the backseat would interfere with your movement when putting ropes around the winch if it's too much deep down ?

[@jjjensn]

Don't forget that the boat will be leaning over, and your balance may not be for standing up when you winch

[@DavidJones-xz2dn]

Higher one allows for cussions and back support

[@drsamjohn]

Now that the winches are being recessed, the coaming top surface no longer needs to a flat surface … should allow for fairly led approaches as well providing further potential to match surfaces coming from further forward and opening up side decks further?!

[@evangatehouse5650]

If the boat is heeled, and you are on the lee side I bet you will be kneeling on the benches or straddling it. (Watch a few Delos videos - similar size tall winches). Recessed winch could stick through the side of the coaming?

[@TheDuracellProject]

Yep, totally. I think I am gonna put the big winch aft and it will stick out of the coaming on the outboard side.

[@Mrwouter1231]

at the winches at sea you will be flexing your knees for stability soo the extra hight will be nullified

[@cwgruber1]

Great that you are thinking things through completely...with the sunken winch you added a drainage issue now? and as someone else pointed out what about grinding on a healing angle, i am not thinking on top of the winch is giving you additional leverage?

[@TheDuracellProject]

The coamings will have drains

[@jmalte4702]

Not to throw a monkey wrench in the cockpit seating but the sloping back seat will collect standing water more easily than a water level or forward sloping seat… even with open cell foam drainage will be an issue… ergonomicaly certainly makes sense...

[@niklasxl]

does the shelf behind the seat have to reach all the way back or could it end early and the aft winch just sits on the same level as the seat behind the wheel?

[@TheDuracellProject]

The coaming protects cockpit from water if a wave goes over deck

[@stephenkillick5812]

What other work do you do, to free up cash for your refit, or do you have enough saved to be able to devote all of your days to the refit and buy the necessary items for the refit.

[@TheDuracellProject]

Thanks to this channel and our patrons i now work full time on Duracell🙏

[@tamecheetah]

You will like having the comping cubbies. My advise would be to, if possible, make the holes bigger so you can look into them without having to bend over. I think twice as big.

[@kenrogers788]

If the winch protrudes through the coaming, the well will self-drain and reduce maintenance.

[@trentyoung1135]

Think about your back when determining winch height. May not want to bend over too much when working the lines.

[@Stefan_the_sailor]

With the cockpit seating setup, could you straddle the coming, one foot on rail, one one seat looking up/forward? Toe rail to help with footing?

[@TheDuracellProject]

Yes we can straddle the coaming and yes we will have a toe rail!

[@svZia-Switch51]

Decisions decisions!

[@richardmason4941]

How do you manage the balance of the boat, I should imagine the furnishings ie. Galley and bunks need to be equal in weight across the beam to avoid a list when she goes into the water?

[@TheDuracellProject]

In the design I try to keep h to Inga balanced. The weight of the fuel tank will balance out the starboard side stuff. We will also have water ballast tanks that can balance out the boat

[@danielsundberg1977]

Place a stainless rubbing piece like some boats have for their berthing lines.

[@ArizonaSusan]

You had a Buster Keaton moment!😅

[@hansstoop5381]

Do you keep the option open to upgrade your winches to electrical powered ones... you have a pretty big boat the forces on the big sails and thus winches are pretty big.

[@TheDuracellProject]

We would love an electrical winch if we can afford one when the time comes!

[@bobadam7021]

Matt, I just started following this project yesterday and I am cooking through all of these episodes. Please get yourself some knee pads. You'll miss your knees later down the road.

[@TheDuracellProject]

hey Bob, you're probably right. and thanks for watching!

[@GrandyApple]

How will the angle of the boat when heeling affect how you stand and operate the winches?

[@TheDuracellProject]

Same as any other boat!

[@joshuagroom3799]

my guess is you would kneel on the seat to winch.

[@cyrilreif5480]

I’m wondering- are the openings into the salon and stateroom big enough to handle an engine, generator, tanks, refrigerator, etc.? I do enjoy your channel.

[@TheDuracellProject]

A lot of the systems will be in the systems room under the cockpit. I am not glassing in the doghouse roof yet so that I can easily slide it open to get big stuff in

[@steveraleigh100]

I know it's probably too late, but as the 2nd winch is close to the end of the coaming and recessed, could you finish the coaming half way along the winch so it's a semi circular shape that the winch sits in? Doing this should also prevent water from potentially leaking down the winch sides.

[@TheDuracellProject]

we'll actually be gettnig to the cockpit again within the next month. It's a good idea and we'll take it into account.

[@steveraleigh100]

@@TheDuracellProject I think I remember seeing something similar many years ago. It looked quite nice

[@gregarioussolitudinist5695]

Get a remote control for your winch and drive the boat from your house, from your recliner.

[@TheDuracellProject]

haha!

[@johndario88]

I’m probably way to late but what about when the boat is listing to a side and changes the angle of attack?? I’m sure the lingo is off but I hope you understand.

[@ArizonaSusan]

Try foam poster board to make small forms.

[@camsmeltzer9388]

Thank you for the video! Are there electric winches available? Perhaps something that’s both electric and manual?? Enjoying your progress keep on trucking along! Regards - landlubber

[@TheDuracellProject]

Yes, there are! We would love to have one electric winch if we can afford one!

[@proq06]

Do you have plans for dingy storage? Maybe dingy hangers on stern?

[@TheDuracellProject]

on bow of boat.

[@TheMikesylv]

Your going to stand on the cushions?

[@TheDuracellProject]

Sure, we will be barefoot a lot of the time anyway