Behind the data: the secret to songwriting

[@bpetersson5024]

the story is based on one metric which doesn't answer why he has been able to write so many pop tunes successfully. Chord progression and changes, melodies, BPM, and his other creative people adding sound scape design, etc.,if you asked him, he could probably do a bunch of Avicii type tunes or Pink Floyd, but MM likes the light EDM platforms with voices added. Not the most creative space compositionally, but it seems to work..ask Rick Beato..

[@heartbreaktimemachine]

The power of legal agreements nobody ever sees.

[@WoockerSocket2]

There's a max martin formula thing that's on KZbin for years now. Simple melodies, small variations, taking away and adding instruments, etc

[@kahyui2486]

Cool*

[@AZ-zq7lx]

Such a robust data set and you only explored one metric. It was well explained but a shame we couldn’t hear more

[@OfficialHaloBelle]

I know more about these guys when it comes to writing these songs, I"ll write them myself

[@adrianbiber5340]

@@chrisdallarivamusic thanks Chris!

[@adrianbiber5340]

@@chrisdallarivamusic there's an archive of articles but none of them are on data metrics for songwriting?

[@SubwaySounds]

@@chrisdallarivamusic Forreal, like that thing about intros, was cute, but what are the bpm? what are the notes? What key are those songs in? What chord progressions do these use? If I were the data engineer on this I extract all of this info. Heck, I might do this for fun if I can find an API that I could assign gpt LLM to listen for these metrics.

[@MoKhanOfficial]

@@SubwaySounds Let me know if you find one!

[@watsonunlimitedmusic]

It's called the "10 Second Rule" (I've also heard 8 seconds). We've been talking about this in the world of music for a long time, I've heard it explained as a rule of thumb for commercial radio. It's partly based on trying to anticipate people's attention span. But it also just comes from average tempos and the fact that almost all music is in 4/4 time. 4 bars of 4/4 time at 120bpm is about 8 seconds.

[@soundslikemaurice]

TLDR: Max Martin's arrangements are the real secret sauce. I've spent an unreasonable amount of time listening to Max Martin's discography - from the Cheiron to MXM etc. One of the factors in his songs that I would debate is a bigger contributor to his lasting success, over the intros, is the arrangement of his records. Take for example 'It's Gonna Be Me' by NSYNC; it has that classic Cheiron era piano stab intro to a beat box break, then when the first verse arrives the percussion falls out for h a bar then a snare hit invites the beat back in, the pre chorus changes the chords to make the chorus more impactful. They repeat that sequence for the second verse/pre/chorus, then add an airy non percussive bridge after that builds to the last chorus which gave us the now iconic "it's gonna be may' line and then just repeat the chorus with more harmonies until it ends on the title line - boom you got a hit. The sense of momentum and movement he seems to be able to imbue into his productions/songwriting I believe is the real key to getting that hit. The intro is just opening the door, the arrangement is what keeps you at the party. His work is a masterclass in growing a song while keep the core simple. 'Since U Been Gone' starts really small and subdued until it just explodes at the chorus with the catharsis of being free from a relationship, from that point the toothpaste is out so might as well squeeze out the rest. There are so many other aspects of his work that could be pointed to as well - collaboration, reshaping of vowels to make words easier to sing, the adherence to one melody, the ridiculous harmonies, etc. As chef Marco Pierre White said, " Perfection is lots of little things done well" and Max Martin - along with his collaborators - knows how to those little things very well.

[@koustubhjadhav34]

great research man 🙌🏽

[@gold9994]

He also did It's my life by Bon Jovi. He is very diverse, and accepting of ANY kinds of music.

[@hoseuberschuh]

Came here for the video. Learned more through this comment 😂🫡🙏🏼

[@balmain-i3e]

​@jamesdoctor8079even old pop music focused a bit more on sonic functionality of chords, often reusing tried and true chord progressions, although they couldn't help but add a jazzy dominant 7th chord somewhere in the track

[@anabltc]

the video was disappointing; your comment made the click worthy 🔥

[@system2213]

wow what a comprehensive analysis. Now that I know the intro should be 9 seconds long I can write hit songs. Great work guys!

[@adolfopadilla4663]

they said a whole lot of nothing about songwriting haha

[@WHOAM1894]

John Cage's 4:44 intro was less than 10 seconds long and look how big of a hit that was !!!

[@adriatic123]

Shorten it to 4 sec and you will have even bigger hit :)

[@DMulabiTalejan]

The length of the intro was also because of the DJ technology. When DJing, you need to bring in the next song as an instrumental (beats only not to interfere with current song words/singing). Back then we did not have loop function. The loop function helps to hold the incoming song at a few repeating seconds of the intro while you mix out the outgoing song, then you release the current song loop for the song to go forward. In old days you needed the song to have a longer instrumental/intro length at the start to enable you smoothly mix out the outgoing song without mashing up the songs words/singing. The outro was also very long back then, for the same reason. Actually, i think that is why we used to have two versions of the same song in some cases. What in the DJ circles they used to call the 12 inch version normally had long intros and outros than the radio or public consumer versions.

[@kahyui2486]

Yah Idk why they left that fact out. Now house musicans will release a short version on DSPs but they will send the long version to DJs. Sometimes they still upload the long version to DSPs but it will have a lot less streams

[@keithlawcomedy]

It was the ability to instantly skip to the next song that changed listening habits forever. Choosing what songs NOT to hear is part of the process of refining what we like. With older formats like cassette we learned to be tolerant of songs we didn't necessarily like on our first listen. With the arrival of the skip button(cd format), we could ditch these songs and head straight for the honey

[@CkBr]

This is so true

[@Nicki-jk9th]

He made pop music industry epic

[@LuciensMusic]

I started shortening my intros long ago, but that is only a small part of what makes a great song.

[@eplecor]

Max Martin’s intros: 9 seconds This video’s intro: 5 minutes 50 seconds It’s just an intro.

[@dirka4520]

Great topic, but disappointing video tbh. All intros of modern pop songs have become shorter, so that's not the metric that makes his songs hits compared to others. You should have explored metrics like, melody variation, chord progression, lyrical tricks etc.. THOSE are the kind of metrics where he can play tricks on the listener by creating the psychological 'catchiness'.

[@MemphiStig]

Intros in songs in the 40s were a lot longer than they are now, and most songs were shorter. A song would sometimes play for 90 seconds before the vocal would kick in, and songs were frequently 3 minutes or less. Of course, music was different too. Big bands were the thing, and vocalists were just part of a group where some instrumentalists took as much spotlight as any singer. It was a different era entirely, musically speaking.

[@MMMMatt]

Catering to streaming metrics has ruined mainstream music- there is no character, technical variety, or song dynamics anymore. And most importantly- there is no vision or message in most songs. Just look at how many Top 25 Spotify artists and Coachella headliners that can't play an instrument to save their life- or at the very least write a full verse completely on their own that actually speaks something meaningful. But now music is all BPM and hooks and volume. There's nothing artistically reflective about the human condition in any of those songs. But the numbers and analytics say they are are selling more than the Beatles, so who cares right? Not only have our collective attention spans been ruined...We have lost focus in what's truly important and don't even realize it yet...

[@kahyui2486]

U and a lot of people really just sound old and you're saying the exact same thing your parents gen said about your music. Speak for yourself. Loads of us still listen to great new music. Sounds like you're looking in the wrong places. Who looks at top 25 on Spotify and expects what you're looking for. Spotify is an international platform. What makes you think you're gonna hear in-depth songs with strongs topic lines when the way to have an international sucsess is to have a simple yet catchy melody. The lyrics aren't important to someone who can't speak English 🤔. Do you really think a song like shape of you by ed Sheeran is much different to a song like sun is shining by Bob Marley or any other job Marley hit. There pretty fuking simple. No doubt you would have overlooked Bob Marley's music (most of his hits are about cheesy love not politics). It was pop music through and through.

[@anupamsingh2587]

The economist Editor - Make a useless video for me on KZbin Video maker - Right there sir!

[@oluwatobiloba]

At last, we're getting a glimpse of what truly gives music its influence 🙂

[@FisHajdari]

Blinding lights has an intro of 26 sec so your data is a bit shaky! Max Martin is a genius in songwriting- not just the intros length

[@keithchegwin1222]

This is dumb, if you think it's because the intro is a few seconds quicker then you're nuts. He obviously understands how to write great melodyies and catchy hooks.

[@MatthewEverettGates]

That was great! Would love to hear more on this dataset. Thanks for the expo!!

[@silversolver7809]

Excellent focused piece, more like it please.

[@sanwellbeatz1630]

Max martin has shaped pop music without anyone even realizing.The GOAT

[@adriatic123]

Max secret is not shorter intros, or whatever other tricks. It's strong melodies, obviously an extremely rare talent in music. Btw in reality, he is better than Paul and John because at their time there was almost no competition in pop music so they reached their record quite easier.

[@Cometcast12]

Yeah, agree

[@vascoambrosio7798]

And this is part of the reason it will be easy for AI to take over the industry, it will be more about data than creativity in itself

[@neoneherefrom5836]

If the end goal of enjoyment is achieved, then why should creativity matter. AI should be able to detect an over saturation point and redefine itself from there. If not, then we’ll temporarily hire humans to begin the next round for AI to take over. Machines require human maintenance until we teach them to maintain themselves. :)

[@vascoambrosio7798]

If everybody is super by the finger snap then no one is

[@neoneherefrom5836]

@@vascoambrosio7798like I said, once oversaturation is reached then music is raised to a new standard. Sonic evolution on steroids.

[@gqn2]

Intro is pretty important. Especially the first sentence.

[@japhyvansan]

overly simplified the intro is key but one of so many factors that go into making a hit song

[@bhobg]

The length of the intro is perhaps only 2 percent or what makes a songwriter successful.

[@silverhandle]

Less than that :)

[@BravoandBrave]

It is a great work. At Bravo & Brave we generate data for music harmony and we can relate with the idea of the short intro. Important also to study the role of the verse+CHORUS part in any song and how "perfect songs" like those mentioned become long-lasting evergreen thanks to the balance of the 5+ parts that forms them. (Oasis and even tech producers like Pryda and Depeche Mode are masterminds of this; you like the intro, you like the outro and you fall in love for all there is in between. That is an EVERGREEN

[@JDBass36]

Typically short songs tend to do well overall. Speaking as a musician I'll say more or less the perfect length of a song is about 3:30 on avg not to long and not to short. 4 mins isn't too bad but anything after 4 mins is far to long for most geners, especially if it's a repetitive song Sometimes hearing 30 - 40 seconds intros until the singing even starts can be tiring. And you lose interest a Lil bit

[@francispower1418]

Keith Richards always said that for a single (not so much album tracks) something new has to happen every ten seconds. Twenty years before this data set has examined. This isn’t exactly new thinking. But yes, music did become slightly more indulgent in the 80s, partly because consumers were listening to it on decent home hi fis, and not as background music, whereas today music is consumed more incidentally.

[@thaexception3406]

Insightful and I like long intros and outros especially if adds variety to a song.

[@unificialtime8360]

In the 1980s heyday of terrestrial radio, labels preferred a long intro that DJs felt entitled to talk over, which also made it less rewarding for people to "pirate" the songs to cassette on their boombox.

[@BradenKwasnicia]

wow thanks, glad you really figured it out

[@bulelanibotman]

this was an interesting video and shows how data is so important to understand things

[@bw2937]

The formulas he uses are purely for arrangement of ideas, NOT creating ideas. And they are the same 'formulas' that have been used since before the beatles (and by the beatles) as well as every major songwriter of the last however many years.

[@nanorider426]

Ah. That's why I don't like top pop music now. It's boring, has no soul and it's timbre is nearly gone.

[@bw2937]

That's more likely your lack of familiarity and connection to it. Every generation is the same

[@damdoumibou3ajaja338]

Dumb question, probably. Is the intro length something that the songwriter decides? I always thought that's what song producers did.

[@64ccd]

Not a dumb question at all. It depends on who the writer and the producer are and if the writer is also the artist to some extent. Short answer is that it differs from case to case

[@SudipBishwakarma]

Could you share the dataset? I guess it'll be helpful for other data analysts to discover interesting insights. 😊

[@TimewastiusMaximus]

Won't even watch the video but will give you the hot tip - use the 1 5 6 4 progression and blow a record exec. Thanks for coming to my Ted talk.

[@KordTaylor]

Really a cool video. Thank you. 👏🏻

[@pedrobarrionovo]

Awesome work

[@clivematthew-wilson7918]

You should probably update your research: Generation Z is turning away from music by people like Max Martin. They see his music as plastic and formulaic. Old songs now represent 70% of the U.S. music market. Even worse for the formulaic music industry: the new-music market is actually shrinking. Generation Z tends to want authenticity, not just a catchy beat or short intro.

[@jornbesteman]

Amen

[@great10toes40]

Yup

[@great10toes40]

Yup

[@bw2937]

Not really true at all if you actually study it, but if it makes you feel better I guess.

[@adriatic123]

The music market is not shrinking, it's 5x bigger than 20 years ago (40bln USD vs 8bln USD), and 84% of that income is generated through streams. It's official data

[@elamishne8982]

Amazing! Can you do a similar video on books? What makes a bestseller?

[@engaranedrick]

my man, max

[@JudgeFredd]

Fantastically interesting

[@khurramkhurshed9427]

Interesting information

[@disappt]

Great to point out the decreasing intro lengths but it would be wise for anyone interested to consider the contributing factors that facilitate the change. That probably wouldn’t be a hit video, though.

[@hbt5427]

The STREAMING is killing the music .... it's one garbage after another

[@MMMMatt]

Yup, exactly- *quantity over quality. They are the audible equivalent of glass modern apartments...then people wonder where all the character and 'soul' of a community went.

[@RICKONORATO]

Wait until AI completely floods the market with a tsunami of mediocrity

[@luxushauseragency]

Priceless insight. Music to the ears of many musicians. 😮

[@justejuste5206]

Manifestations et grèves du 1er mai: à quoi faut-il s'attendre?Les enjeux de la mobilisation du 1er-Mai

[@nicktaylor5264]

The intros to my songs go on forever. Sometimes the main part of the song never starts. There isn't time. I skip straight to the outro.

[@anthonywallace3830]

Would love to hear your music! I’m a fellow songwriter :)

[@thesynr]

I’ve been doing this a lot lately. No intro longer than 10 seconds.

[@sj82516]

Cool topics. Looking forward to learn more.

[@Pe6ek]

Yeah, art can't be explained by a spread sheet. What a surprise!

[@bobcosmic]

Short intro, try to get the hook heard as soon as possible and make your song so singable that a young child will sing along😉

[@phatato]

What a shame, music is supposed to be about artistic expression, not simply exploiting trends and people's short attention spans. Could you imagine John Lennon writing such a strange expressive unique and personal song like Strawberry Fields forever if he was more concerned with what everyone else wanted to hear?

[@great10toes40]

Stores ruin music they buy alot of it and don't care about the lyrics

[@theessay2530]

Does anyone know where I could access that spreadsheet

[@iamgoovex]

Nice

[@FreddyPunches]

Insightful! Thank you!

[@Wuaiabwjs]

always beatles on top

[@AlbertKimMusic]

That’s my goal, to be a songwriter for artists

[@serjiobazhan3918]

Wow! This was very interesting and exciting!

[@duerf5826]

"Who's the most successful songwriter in the modern era?" Max Martin. "Who?" Exactly.

[@toddkitta]

I would love to get my hands on this Excel sheet! Economist?

[@Itsdivinedivine]

Magnificent Valor

[@JustinDeRosa]

Could we do some data analysis on forensic accounting of bad businesses?

[@Re_RAM]

This is what happens when you get AI to make a video about creativity...

[@NilsMiner]

Shorter hook then reel them in with the song or Article... it's like reading a book, you're totally absorbed in the first chapter or a TV show has the most exciting moments in the first clip then come the who done it, why & for what reasons. Bravo for finding this!!! 😊❤😊

[@jamesvandemark2086]

Ahem- There's also Carole King........ The Economist as Rolling Stone? How cool!

[@edgarmoreno53]

Super like

[@apoormansempire]

Just in case you missed the underlying theme... mega pop stars can't write their own music to save their lives.

[@SidharthPriyadarsh]

Olivia Rodrigo

[@bw2937]

How about, Dua Lipa, Olivia Rodrigo, The Weeknd, Ed Sheeran, Lady Gaga, Billie Eilish. They all do? And there are no bigger popstars out right now than them.

[@SidharthPriyadarsh]

@@bw2937 🤣🤣 nice joke

[@LucienNox]

This is why I listen to lana del rey and perfume genius.

[@djp1234]

The next biggest songwriter will be AI.

[@TheSpiritOfTheTimes]

No lol.

[@jacey714]

Only if making a hit song was easy as making a short intro~ lol

[@tanyamccann9478]

He is definitely not a nobody.

[@bendlor]

This is a bit silly. Only one out of many many metrics that together are what make a song pop. Length of intro alone doesnt really even say much, many other factors at play

[@andrewaboy8852]

Definitely could have focused on other aspects of songs because the intro length is already usually cut short on all songs on the radio 😅😅😅

[@rubyam1]

Why not use ML techniques to see what factors are there?

[@paulwood4142]

Now there are no intros, a lot of Tiktok songs just start with a chorus. Kids can't wait 9 seconds to hear the first vocal line.

[@rachelpatterson2327]

In the 90s it was always basing a song with pachebel canon in d

[@matthiasmauch2476]

Caitlin, this is cool stuff. I’m a print subscriber and always appreciate the data visualisation page. This is a great addition! Regards to the team.

[@Jakob-zs1qu]

The secret to songwriting? Or Martin's signature way of songwriting 🤔

[@robertskolimowski7049]

How about Desmond Child??

[@juvin2506]

atleast let us download the excel sheet

[@candelise]

The secret to songwriting: use your imagination and keep doing it.

[@nameisamine]

I noticed out of all Max’s number one hits, 18 of them were with a specific demographic: white solo female pop acts. He seems to have a knack for crafting no.1 hits for them specifically, rather than male soloists or bands. Why is that? Is that because he clicks better with women, or his songs are more marketable with women? 🤔

[@JDBass36]

Pop in general is pretty generic music. Nothing fancy about it for the most part. But I do agree women tend to be more marketable with pop songs. Idk if it's just me, but Pop music sounds slightly more in favor to women to sing. It kinda sounds like a more feminine gener, so maybe that's why as you stated it's easier to market a song or artist that's a women

[@dalblack8712]

I was wondering why every song sounded the same the last 20 years.

[@nathanngumi8467]

Great insights!

[@shoegazeforever8810]

But which ones have stood the ultimate test: the test of time?

[@jutikasarmah5946]

Please do a same musical research on the hits of A.R.Rehman

[@SidharthPriyadarsh]

More like Pritam who is much relevant these days

[@Stormwern]

He's now #2, he's surpassed John Lennon.

[@rmv9194]

Playing four bars of the verse chord progression before the rest of the band and the vocals come in is not a real intro. What happened is that Intros are dissappearing, just as pre choruses and complex melodies. Its all down to "hooks". Could it be the average songwriter have become lazier?

[@pierre11780]

Interesting...

[@EdinaScot]

Fascinating insights,, thanks to Chris and Economist foir this 👏👏

[@fatguineapig9536]

By second length intros you mean bpm x bars? The point is a bit unfinished and could have just said that Martin’s intros are 1 bar long, and after 4 bars the song picks up to get paid.

[@thehoogard]

If you're only looking at #1 songs you're guaranteed to run into survivoship bias.

[@1stNlass]

Being gifted is a blessing none of us deserve.

[@danube466]

what about 1 max's brand 2 equates to more money put into a record if it is by. known producer 3 cause listenership is more narrow and selection of records broader 4 conveyor belt music repeating themes and ideas is not talent or success... only up to a point it is ....eg a famous football player receives 60% of his income not from talent but fame and brand and talent must merely reinforce a superficial threshold.

[@bw2937]

That doesn't explain why so many huge producers have there 'era' and then fall off completely. Max is able to evolve.

[@anthonygore-au]

A perfect example of how garbage data can make you think you know something when you don't. To learn anything interesting about what makes a hit song you'd have to analyze both hit songs AND non-hit songs. Example: they say 7 seconds is the average introduction length of recent hit songs. But what if all the NON-hit songs also have that average intro length? That would mean it's an irrelevant data point that has nothing to do with why a song is a hit or not. My guess is that this data set explains almost nothing about why Martin has so many hits. The real reasons are likely his skill as a musician and producer, and his industry connections. Not a data-backed formula.

[@boyan.guitar]

Data and numbers?? How about just ask Max Martin??

[@bullterror5]

5.5

[@tulaj_pieska]

Wait thats it? Too short😅