Why Tunic Hides Its Tutorial

[@ArchitectofGames]

Here's a sneaky hint that no walkthrough will teach you - money can be exchanged for goods and services... My patreon is neither good nor serviceable but you get the idea: www.patreon.com/ArchitectofGames I hide all my secret hot takes on this twitter account where no-one will ever find them - least of all you, foolish reader! twitter.com/Thefearalcarrot

[@liamr6761]

As a french person, thanks. I liked your little message.

[@hinamiravenroot7162]

If you liked Tunic I highly recommend Hyper Light Drifter. They seem very similar in the Zelda-Souls atmosphere and the style of secrets and riddles.

[@markwalker3510]

as a three time nationally-ranked dark souls speedrunner this is genuinely the worst gameplay ive ever seen. im not saying it to be mean its just a fact, i know what im talking about (im a redditor btw)

[@ArchitectofGames]

@@markwalker3510 :,(

[@saku-ra8813]

4:13 Listen hear you little piece of sh-t >:'(

[@tabnk2]

I think the game Outer Wilds solves the problem of people not knowing that they missed a crucial bit of information using the “There’s more to explore here” note that pops up in your ship log when you haven’t gotten all the available info from an area

[@Roboardo]

Also in one interview the lead designer said they intentionally put the "hooks" of each plot line in multiple places to make sure you can start your exploration, even if you miss them the first time

[@SharienGaming]

while that can help - its basically impossible for the game to know if a player remembers or understood a thing you showed them in the past... but at some point you have to assume some base knowledge like for example in antichamber the game taught me at some point how one of the tools works and i used it appropriatly...so i knew the mechanic right? well.. a couple hours later i was completely stuck at a puzzle, because i completely forgot that this mechanic was a thing but i very much appreciate when a game tells me "hey this area has something you might still want to find" because its way better than aimlessly searching the entire gameworld pixel by pixel for the one thing i am either missing or simply forgot where it was

[@leftovernoise]

Outer wilds is such a well designed experience it's insane

[@wegogiant]

Was just about to type a similar comment myself

[@ArchitectofGames]

Intentionally didn't mention Outer Wilds because I've talked about that game enough but you're 100% right!

[@CrispBaker]

Discovering the Holy Cross was one of the most "OH YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING ME" moments I've had in a game for a good while

[@Kufunninapuh]

I liked most things about tunic except this one moment which felt silly.

[@obiwanpez]

Me: “Wai-no. No! NOOOO! THE WHOLE TIME???”

[@flograuper9294]

Most fun I’ve ever had waiting 20 minutes for someone to mention the outer wilds.

[@aimelle3]

"This is me solving the biggest puzzle in the game." I have assembled the full manual, opened the mountain door, collected about half the fairies and a third of the collectibles, and I have no freaking idea what this is. WTF, Tunic, how far deep do you go?

[@JaredJeyaretnam]

Same except I got 11/12 collectibles and all the fairies. Lmao.

[@Lycanthromancer1]

Given that a lot of the puzzles in the game require you to make some incredibly unusual logical leaps to even realize they exist in the first place (like the fact that the music itself is an actual language; look up "Tune-ic" or "Tuneic" for more details)... Yeah, the game is basically a black hole's worth of depth, sucking even the very light of the world itself into its depths.

[@yomammabe1]

Friendly hint, path to that puzzle spot starts in the bedroom.

[@Lycanthromancer1]

@@yomammabe1 That's what she said.

[@aimelle3]

@@yomammabe1 That comment is 9 months old my dude. I've solved that puzzle by now.

[@jassykat]

I don't know, but maybe because it tries to replicate that nostalgic feeling of mystery and discovery you get when playing a game in a foreign language and slowly gathering knowledge of what items do, map layout, controls, etc. It reminded me of me beating Zelda Twilight Princess in Japanese when I was 10 years old.

[@AscendantOat]

I wonder if the devs had a similar experience with an older Zelda game. There are illustrations in the Tunic manual that are direct references to ones in the original Zelda manual.

[@acrowdofpeople]

I had a similar effect with a French version of A Link to the Past that I picked up at a local flea market. No idea how it wound up here.

[@FlameRat_YehLon]

Maybe? That's said, the translated version of the manual shows that the plot is completely different to what the player could guess, which the game is hinted at but never says it out in English directly. Not sure whether that's some sort of reference or just an intentional plot design.

[@Ramsey276one]

Now I get it Loving CCGs led me to an Elden Ring of choosing every option in a certain GBA ROM XD

[@7k7yub7]

I got the same impression. It feels like when I played the NES zeldas as a child when I had not a single clue about english or what is going on in general. In my opinion this truly is next level gamedesign.

[@Woodledude]

My takeaway from this video: Drifting on a horse is possible, if you have a REALLY awesome horse.

[@Garwinium]

Well now we need a medieval remix of Night Of Fire

[@vizthex]

or just play horse riding tales like josh strife hayes did.

[@EggBastion]

or pig

[@cianos9011]

know the name of that game?

[@nulnul7050]

@@cianos9011 knightfall

[@Ludician]

It's an odd one to mention because it's actually very information-dense, but I remember Factorio fondly in this regard. It's quite good at letting you know WHAT you need to do next, but tells you nothing about HOW to do it, leaving you to create horribly over-complicated solutions to simple recipes... and discover your own efficiencies, design tricks, and "You can do that?!" realizations along the way. In a way, a recipe is just a way the game tricks you into designing nightmarish puzzles for yourself that you'll need to solve later.

[@helplmchoking]

I love that! It's how almost all video game puzzles, actually how all challenges full stop, should be designed imo. Gimme a clear goal, a setting with some limitations and a collection of tools to use and let me loose. Let ME solve the problem, don't make me find THE solution you had in mind. I love the open world Zelda's for this. You know you need to reach the end of a shrine, hit the buttons in a dungeon, get past this enemy group or whatever, you know what makes it hard and you often can see some hints left for you but it's up to you to take stock of your tools and options and figure out how to make it all work. They didn't seem to care what you actually did, so long as you succeed and enjoy the process. Heck the designers have stated in an interview that they love wacky shrine solutions. That they consider reaching the goal to be the correct solution, no matter how you did it

[@cee_ves]

“In souls games people can help each other with the signs” Ah yes, like how in Elden ring on every door you can’t open there’s 15 “oh you don’t have the right, you don’t have the right” signs in front of it.

[@astralura]

"illusiary wall"

[@SystemBD]

"Still no lover, Therefore Try jumping"

[@mrwizard5012]

"Try woman, try finger butthole."

[@sanctusbepis8544]

"Liar ahead"

[@georgiykireev9678]

You don't have the right, O you don't have the right, in short you don't have the right, O you don't have the right

[@Herio7]

You mentioned Razbuten experiment and I tried to replicate it with my SO. They made so many wrong or baseless assumptions, so many assumptions that veteran player wouldn't even think are possible, failed most menial task, missed so many tutorials and hints it was unbelievable to me how wrong one can go. Games like Tunic is clearly made for experienced players and I'm talking people who games for years but it isn't acknowledged anywhere because literally no one thinks like this. Books for kids aren't written in Shakespearean proses for a reason but games make no such distinction yet.

[@Repicheep22]

Now you've got me curious. Can you give a few examples?

[@fy8798]

Tunic is obviously designed for an audience that has played and remembers old isometric action-adventure games. It OF COURSE works much less well if you don't know anything about these. Even the game's name is a Zelda reference. You have to be daft to think it's aimed at completely new players. The difficulty shows that as well.

[@Herio7]

@@Repicheep22 in subnautica they missed scanning part completely which is required mechanism to make any progress. Subnauitica has no markers or quests like most modern games so they were lost and had no idea what to do, where to go. We veterans love freedom but it was bane for my SO. From mechanical standpoint they couldn't turn and move at the same time. Mistake liked half of the keys constantly. Couldn't figure simple UI because it could be accessible via different keys. Forgotten what each UI tab did 5s after leaving it. Asked why? They responded it's too much for them at one time, every time.

[@syro33]

I mean, children's books from the 1500's did use Shakespearean language, cause that was... The language at the time. Though, it probably wasn't filled with as many references and as much poetry as Shakespeare, thats for sure.

[@arglebargle5531]

@@syro33 -There were no children's books in Elizabethan England. If there were, they wouldn't have been written in Iambic Pentameter, they would have been dry, instructional affairs.

[@richiecastle460]

This is an interesting problem in table top games as well. In my d&d game, I learned long ago to never be ashamed to flat out tell players pieces of information crucial to the game. No matter how clever i think i am, at some point, the players will get stuck. My solution is a graded explanation system, where I first give very little info, than if they are stuck i give more obvious clues, and if still stuck, I flat out say, "if you push the ice demon into lava, it will deal alot of damage." At the end of the day, they'd rather be told right out than fumble for 30 minutes.

[@AnotherDuck]

You've got your priorities in order. Fun goes ahead of challenge. Even if having the right level of challenge is one of the most important parts.

[@stevegruber4724]

i will plan out a sub-optimal win condition for my D&D players or a means for escape. i don't want to hint too strongly that they *must* do something, but I will tell them about an option they haven't considered if they get stuck stuck.

[@Aderon]

You hit the nail square on the head with the message for this one. One piece of dialogue in the manual just states that if you're stuck, ask a friend, and if they're stuck, help them out. There are also mechanics to the game that aren't even hinted at in the manual other than a handful of scribblings, and even then, if you do figure out how to read the writing system, only tells you that said mechanic exists. I discovered it by complete accident when I was fuddling about with the combat, trying something and then my complete random chance I did a very particular input that just so happened to be timed correctly with an enemy also doing a particular thing and then it happened. I had the charm associated with this mechanic equipped for hours before I understood how it affected the not-at-all explained mechanic mentioned only in one pen scribble of 4 characters.

[@brotbrotsen1100]

I'm curious now what mechanic is that and how do you activate it?

[@Aderon]

​@@brotbrotsen1100 Since the game's been out long enough I don't feel too bad about about spoiling it. If you tap the shield button, you'll parry, and if you time that right with an enemy attack, it will deflect and stun them.

[@pedroscoponi4905]

I know it doesn't enter into the discussion too much, but Tunic's thing with a user manual that you can only understand smalls sections of is a near-perfect reproduction of the feeling of playing games as a kid when you don't speak english. I'd say it maps onto playing games in japanese as well, but not nearly as neatly, since there's a lot of innate cultural exposure to english around the world that kanji just doesn't have.

[@thewanderer5506]

Games like this and Outer Wilds are phenomenal when you get those eureka moments, but fall flat in the replayability area because you always know the big twists and secrets The age old 'I wanna forget this game and replay it fresh' dilemma

[@NoxShadow]

I really recommend trying to play outer wilds and pretending you don't know what you're doing. Yes, a bit of your knowledge will end up taking you to the right place, if you want it or not. But I found that if you explore the game like it was your first time, exploring the ruins one by one, following the clues you find and roleplaying as a newbie, you can still feel part of the satisfaction again I explored the home world, explored the dark bramble, got fucked for the first time, then went a bit slower to explore everything else from the little threads that I got from the bramble and the home world. I loved the game my first time around, and I was surprised at how much I had forgotten when I went for my second playthrough after the dlc came out, there's strangely a lot to rediscover in that game, you just need to pretend a bit.

[@megalogoro6388]

If I could keep forgetting outer wilds and replaying it again idk if I would ever need another game.

[@Boomblox5896]

I don't really like replaying games anyways, even if they have actual replay value to them, because I always hold this "Been there, done that" attitude about games, and I only have limited time to do stuff in my life, so I focus on completing it as soon as I can.

[@yukonau1153]

My fear is that since I often don't have time to finish a game in one sitting, I'll come back to a game without all of the knowledge I gained before. Even worse is if there isn't a log book to flip through that explains all the mechanics I've learned.

[@nikey2110]

Agree

[@andrewgreenwood9068]

this was my problem with morowind. the game was fun but i could never remember everything i needed too after taking a break.

[@beefpelican]

The only way I finally made it through Fez was when I was bed bound with covid and could do it all in 1 week

[@untipogracioso3038]

Same. Thats why a make notes on a piece of paper if i forgot

[@EvelynNdenial]

@@untipogracioso3038 the lesson of this video and the whole comment section is that we need more games that require you to take notes.

[@carlos7mh]

The social aspect of this game reminds me of the 90s joy of reading video game magazines or going to the older cousin’s house in search for clues when one got stuck in a game.

[@Skyehoppers]

Whoa! Thanks so much for the shoutout I really appreciate it! I had no idea you were even aware of my channel. I've been watching your videos consistently since like 2019 and you were one of the first channels that really showed me how much incredible depth there could be in the "videos about games" genre. I learn a ton about game design with every upload. This video was great too I really need to play Tunic since all my favorite KZbinrs are raving about it. (And as a long-time Super Paper Mario defender I appreciated the Flopside reference in the middle there lmao)

[@themore-you-know]

Lately, I've been playing and enjoying simple "Hidden Objects" games like "Nightmares from the Deep". I was surprised by how much I enjoyed the ways they handle players getting stuck: - Unless you play in Expert mode, you get the following mechanics to guide you along... a) access to a "Hint" button, that will place a glimmer on the next step you need to find or act on; b) access to a puzzle "Skip" button, which replaces the puzzle that you're stuck on with a familiar game of Mahjong (hence not making you feel like an idiot, since you're just solving an alternative game) c) if you wait for way too long, small glimmers and subtle light tricks will guide your eyes onto the next step. Unfortunately for me, I'm stubborn and I typically play the Hidden Game objects with Expert Mode on, wasting 3-4-5 extra hours blankly staring at objects and puzzles that fade out of existence as I space out. But I do really appreciate the Normal Mode. A lot of games could learn from Hidden Object games. For example: Metroidvanias, which could alternatively offer ways to grind-and-pay for hints, or have additional visual cues as time goes.

[@meathir4921]

I think Metroidvanias have the map - any point with an unexplored exit is a possible way to go. I can come back to Metroidvanias after a week and just open the map. But then, I’ve played many of them.

[@themore-you-know]

@@meathir4921, the problem with the map is that it is still quite possible to miss something, and when only 1 path of discovery is offered... every other action (and there are many possible) because failure states. Another good example on the improvements to be had are highlighted by the GDC talk from the creator of "A Short Hike": by multiplying the different places a "key" is found, it offers both freedom and minimization of the risk of the player walking away frustrated.

[@exyzt9877]

@@meathir4921 A better example is Prime's hint system, where you'll periodically receive reports from your gunship's scans of the planet telling you which room you should head to, and giving a subtle indicator of what you might find, but not showing any of the rooms before it, leaving you to figure it out based on which doors look like they might lead there, and what abilities you have unlocked. Personally, I think metroidvanias SHOULD require the player to be able to figure things out by themselves, and not tell them "Okay, go here, take a left, a down, another left, an up, a right, good job, here's the grappling hook." The main draw of these games are being able to go from a lonely explorer to a downright demigod in everything but name by finding stuff and as such, I think revealing the whole entire thing is just... a bad idea. But, I'm fine with the way Prime handled it. Because at the end of the day, you DO still need to figure out the path to your destination. The only thing you're given is the destination itself, and for me, that was just enough information to make me enjoy the game rather than hate it.

[@jamesusher4650]

Finishing the guidebook in tunic and pulling info form all over the place and solving the final puzzle was one of my favorite moments playing a game period. That guidebook is probably my favorite mechanic I've ever seen in a indie game

[@4ty2]

I think The Witness has a good way of dealing with the possibility of missing "the big secret" by giving you an almost obvious example of it near the ending area. That way it never tells you directly but most people will figure it out by then

[@drowninafire]

I made a friend play Outer Wilds and I was the filter through which he got hints. The only way to re-experience that game is to watch someone else experience it.

[@lordook5413]

Amnesia is another way.

[@alecchristiaen4856]

I love how Subnautica does this with its story telling. There's an intro part, where you'll cover your survival basics (mainly some gear to increase your depth and reach) and discover some early escape pods (starting to sell you on the fact that no one's coming to help). Then the Sunbeam (an aptly named ray of hope) sends messages and eventually tells you they're going to save you. And then they're blown out of orbit. From this point forward, the game's completely freeform. You'll still get some distress signals from escape pods (one even baiting you towards the rather important floating island), but otherwise, your own curiosity and drive will propel the plot. The turret that shot down the Sunbeam will hold intel telling you of a handful of similar facilities. For two, they give the aproximate depth, relative location to the turret (which will be automatically marked, since you can keep using the Sunbeam rendez-vous marker) and a brief description of the biome it's in. Not much to go on. Essentially, the player is given the problem, but also the way to find the solution: one of the first things you learn is to use the scanner to make new blueprints. You've been taught the primary loop of the game: explore new region > scan wreckage for blueprints > make new gear > rinse, repeat. You're basically required to do this loop a couple times, often finding useful but not crucial gear in the meantime that will seemingly help you cut down on survival effort (like the water filter or various types of energy production) but will actually serve you into the late game, when you won't get close to the surface for hours of gameplay. Then, you may stumble upon the specific cave mouth that unlocks the second half of the game to you, and from there, the initial loop kinda stops, but we get the pay-off of our efforts: the story of what happened on the planet is revealed, culminating in the reveal waiting at the Primary containment facility (the location of which you'll have to find yourself). An entire story, driven only by the player's curiosity, the devs ability to convey the basic game loop effectively, and some bread crumbs of info to go on.

[@Skaatje]

I think the information in a game should be layered depending on how deep you want to dive. But it has to optional and disabled by default. Or give you the option before you start the game. I like getting lost into Elden Ring at the moment and I sort of hate how many times I need to go to a website to figure stuff out.

[@gewurzgurke4964]

Yes, FromSoft arachaics approach to Questlines worked okay-ish in the more linear experiences like Dark Souls, but it is woefully unfit for the open world. A good old marker for more Quests (some do have them, the volcanic manor questline for example) would have solved a lot of the issues, not necessarily pointing you exactly where to go, but giving you a broad area and description on the world map so I can still figure out where to go after a 2 day break

[@QQ-rx9xp]

A good example of this is all the fun I had figuring out video games before I knew English! Guessing with trial and error can be great, until you become frustratingly stuck.

[@jonathanfavourite]

A small but imo not insignificant way in which games can spoil things while trying to be helpful is by having all the keybinds available in the settings right from the get-go. When I start a new action or shooter game, typically I go straight to the settings to rebind things the way I like them (interact on Q instead of F, reload on E instead of R etc.) If I am not careful, I get a faceful of the game's weapons, items, and most mechanics, because they all have associated keys listed. Mind you, that's a very * me * problem, and only tangentially connected to the topic of this video, but hey there's your engagement you thirsty content creator you

[@Runegrem]

You're not alone in that. But I think it's kind of a hard problem to solve, since you want your players to be able to set their own controls. But to do that properly they need to know what all the buttons do since if you just let them know a few of them at the start they might set functions to buttons they wanted for another function if they knew it existed.

This is a real issue that I run into constantly. I have Opinions about controller layouts (stop making my poor thumbs do 95% of the work you monsters), so the first thing I do in a new game is figure out how I want to control it. I think it's very easy for a developer to recognise that their game rests heavily on gated access to knowledge & account for that in the settings menu. Instead of spoiling that there's a summon ability, tell me: "This button controls an ability you will use infrequently in combat situations." Then I can easily see that I probably don't have to bind that function to the A button, but can instead stick it on RS or Y or something.

[@xomvoid_akaluchiru_987]

That comment about french being an alien, incomprehensible language is so accurate. I love studying french.

[@gerg905]

ENDING SPOILERS FOR TUNIC IN THIS COMMENT: So I started Tunic because of this video and have since beat it. There were in fact a LOT of times when I was frustrated beyond belief. Because I'm the first of my friends and family to try it, I had nobody to turn to but the internet, which almost feels scummy in a discovery based game. This is especially because you can often skip puzzles unintentionally. For example, my playthrough. I ended up finding the secret/true ending for the game without ever having found wherever that room is that you "spoiled" at the start of the video. I also ended up getting that secret ending without ever beating the game with the normal ending. All I had going for me to complete the puzzle was one random NPC in the temple that said random runic gibberish with a "4th key" sprinkled in there. From then on I was just trying to find and collect everything, mostly manual pages in hopes that I could find this "4th key" somewhere in the manual hidden away somewhere. Little did I know that the manual itself WAS the 4th key. Because I beat the game without a full understanding of what was going on or even knowing what the normal ending, the secret ending ended up being just confusing and anticlimactic. I was expecting to fight either the big blue fox (like I later learned is in the normal ending) or some sort of bigger baddie behind it all, instead all i got was an admittedly touching ending that I had to draw a lot of conclusions from. This video did indeed make my playthrough a bit smoother, understanding leveling and such.

[@twilightvulpine]

The big irony is that if you figure out the language of the game, that NPC was talking that there isn't a 4th Key. But likely the designers intended for the misunderstanding to spur on more exploration.

[@hhhunter9227]

The true ending is way easier than getting to the biggest puzzle room that the video talked about. If you count that room as an ending as well then you merely got to the second last ending

[@samengsberg875]

A half second throw out remark to paper mario's flopside. I almost blinked and missed it. Love the effort that goes into the videos!

[@jameshart2622]

This! Definitely a "blink and you miss it" moment. I had to rewind the video to make sure I wasn't imagining things.

[@Andreopimentel]

I was hoping you would mention the Super metroid moment when you learn that you could wall jump from the start of the game. One of the best gaming moments IMO

[@AnotherDuck]

After completing this game recently, there were two things I looked up without solving it myself. Some of the exact card functions, and how to get the "thank you for playing" message. I did check up some stuff, but that was just checking stuff and stopping once I realised I was on the right path, before I actually learned anything new from whatever source it was. Sometimes finding out that you're not in some random unrelated rabbit hole of a dead end is enough. The most satisfying puzzle to solve was the Golden Path, including the best feeling of getting a simple collectible you've gotten many times before. There are puzzles following it, but I didn't find those to be nearly as satisfying. Learning the language was fun too, just on its own, but I like puzzles. Although not to the extend of solving the very last one related to that.

[@ChrisLeeW00]

Ive manually decoded the secret writing from a lot of parts of Tunic, and for the most part, it didn’t seem like super necessary information, but it meant more because I had to dig to find it.

[@AJ-uf4sh]

It's so cool when you eventually don't need to rely upon your notes and can just translate off the bat

[@atakji_art]

I had Tunic on my wishlist for a while now and this video reaaally makes me want to play it! Great video

[@worthasandwich]

So I am currently writhing a ttrpg and this video helped a few ideas come a bit more in to focus that I have been thinking about for weeks. Part of it is how explicit should I be telling players and GMs what they can do. This video convinced me that the section "on running away from your problems" is important and valuable.

[@xystem4701]

4:44 the attention that is this little joke where you say flopside instead of flip side and briefly show a bit of super paper Mario is just *chef’s kiss*

[@HalfpennyTerwilliger]

The cynic in me wonders how much "artificially boost my engagement metric" played a part in this evolution. We had complete manuals way back when, then they were scrapped to save money and replaced by ingame tutorials. Now we're scrapping ingame tutorials in favor of obscure hints pushing people to "share knowledge" and "create a community" by making wikis, tutorial vids and boosting the game's presence on socials.

[@oz_jones]

Oh man, I still remember the absolute beast of a manual that CIV II had. I had read novels that were thinner than that mf. Still love the game though.

[@AJ-uf4sh]

To be fair, if you had the whole manual from the start *and* translated fully, there wouldn't be much to the game. It would also just be information overload as well making discoveries you could have made by yourself completely obsolete. *And* there wouldn't be much point in exploring and thinking about what happened through observations of the environment if you were told the lore outright. There's definitely a few valid reasons for not giving everything at once that don't primarily serve to make the game popular.

[@emperortgp2424]

shouldn't really matter if the game is good

[@meathir4921]

@@emperortgp2424 The manual IS the game.

[@OneAndZer0]

I think if you're a person who plays games regularly you won't get stuck enough to look anything up. I just beat it, there was nothing in the main game that gave me trouble except for one small piece of a grander puzzle at the end. I would say it's a puzzle game just as much as it is an adventure game and you can't make a puzzle game by tutorialising solutions.

[@garrowpop2965]

This reminds me a lot of Rain World, where it's lack of a tutorial turns it into what I would consider a true survival game when compared to something like minecraft or subnautica. It's lack of telling you what certain objects and creatures do, how much health an enemy has and even just where to go give you this experience of truly being this helpless little creature just trying to survive in the harsh elements of the world around you. And it makes it that much better when you eventually get a handle on the controls and how to actually defend yourself and you reach this sort of "self-actualization" that works very well in tandem with the story

[@sonwig5186]

It took me days to understand what the symbols on the doors meant.

[@calamitydragon6830]

rain world comment :)

[@nautil_us]

Just finished watching the transparency video of this game and now this shows up!! Lovely coincidence

[@horserage]

The transparency video? Got a link?

[@ArchitectofGames]

@@horserage kzbin.info/www/bejne/qIrSi6Voab-il9E Here you go, it's great!

[@horserage]

@@ArchitectofGames Cheers! Same to Eva.

[@EggBastion]

@@ArchitectofGames blazin

[@Transparencyboo]

👀

[@lx-icon]

On the topic of tutorials hindering game enjoyment - one of the biggest offenders for me was Doom Eternal. They implemented quite a few different mechanics that are interesting, and they do the correct thing of introducing them one by one, which should be sufficient - but then they fully PULL YOU OUT OF THE GAME to throw you into a tutorial area where you have to perform the mechanic before it returns you to the level you were in. It's really frustrating!

[@germen2631]

My first experience with this was through The Witness, and I treasure that game as a major part of my soul. Now I started playing Rain World, reccomended by several friends in a discord server, and in part, I feel like I'm living The Witness all over again. I will definitely get my hands on Tunic now.

[@AJ-uf4sh]

Another metroidbrainia you should look into is Outer Wilds! It even has a dlc!

[@elosy_the_thoughtless]

I would recommend The Talos Principle

[@recaru0331]

I have to stop midway... Getting the game now, then watching this again after I've played through it

[@cowmustard7848]

I love your channel, you don't just talk about the big triple A titles, you also discuss flash games, indie titles and so on. It makes the world of games feel more connected and I discover new games everytime, Frog Fractions is in the backlog. Keep it up :)

[@R.Eres-Queen]

Interesting, I think these the first game analysis that actually convinced me to buy a game. These sounds like the kind of game I would love to play, I am going to buy it today.

[@cesium-salami]

Those last tunic puzzles for all the knick knacks are ridiculous, page 54 actually murdered me

[@theantgre]

"On the flopside" is one of the best jokes

[@playerguy2]

In 1 minute and 51 minutes I've been convinced that even minor spoilers are too much to ask. I'm sorry, but I have to watch your (likely great and insightful) video *after* playing this game.

[@jmugwel]

Yea. Here I accidentally learned, that you can drop coins in a well. I wish I figured it out myself.

[@hedgehogmorph7248]

Also Tunic managed to pull off a quite dramatic plotline using no words. Showing not telling one of the couple most meaningful downfalls of past civilization -- turning upside down what you know about an element of environment. Like when you're flipping a switch -- what does that mean for a switch

[@ratzeflummi6372]

ha! those five years of french classes i was forced to have in school finally come in handy!

[@LunarBulletDev]

An Adam Millard video is like a sweet candy, makes you happy when you get a new one and its quite enjoyable

[@GL-GildedLining]

Sssssold. I remember seeing teaser clips of this game but couldn't tell from their brevity whether Tunic just had a nice aesthetic or if the whole package would be a winner. This video is very convincing; thanks, Adam! Onto my Steam Wishlist it goes~

[@gaben9224]

Up until now I just wrote off Tunic as another random "zelda-inspired indie game that's carried by its art style", without knowing much about it except small gameplay clips and a description. I had no idea it was closer to a soulslike, nor about the whole piecing together information from a manual written in a foreign language thing. That is so unbelievably cool and I'm pissed that I've been told for so long it's just a zelda clone. I seriously need to try Tunic now, thanks for that!

[@Ba_xel]

Your vidoes are some of my favourites on this platform. Keep up the good work!!

[@roadblockk363]

I would just like to express a great value of thanks for always sharing other creator's channels at the end of your videos, as many of them has become part of my subscription list. Creators really need to focus on this way of recommendations rather than having the algorithm just boost the already big channels. Twich's "other viewers of this channel also watch" system is quiet nice and would like to be recommended YT channels in that way, but the chances that they are similar in scope has been little. So once again thanks for doing this. To end this long comment the propper AoG way...CHAO!

[@cyankoopa8111]

KZbin already has the tools to implement this. Creators have the ability to view what other creators their viewers tend to watch as part of their analytics, wouldn't take much for them to make it a thing since most of the code's already there- just needs a UI element.

[@dondashall]

This approach is great for people who like it. The problem I have with this "we won't provide a tutorial, you'll figure it out by playing" approach is that it depends on me actually figuring it out. And I've played quite a few games where I haven't and then you are just stuck in frustration and inaccessibility and that's far worse for a game in my opinion than a game that overexplains because I will eventually get out of the overexplaining. For sure, people who want to figure things out entirely on its own (and depending on the game sometimes I'm in that category) should be able to disable more direct tutorials if they want to, but they should still be there for people who want and need them.

[@randomguy6679]

A game that’s okay for everyone is special for no one.

[@dondashall]

@@randomguy6679 That has nothing to do with tutorial design.

[@randomguy6679]

@@dondashall I know, but it has everything to do with prioritizing a unique experience over an overly sanitized one. Something we need in this day and age more often.

[@xsomeNOOBx]

For a game centered around discovery I found the act of exploring the world to be very frustrating. By the time I had the ability to use some of the features that make exploration easier, I barely had any time before the game strips you of all progress .

[@Great_Olaf5]

Uh... For what game? He mentions several in the video, so we have no way of knowing which one you're referring to. It can be reasonable assumed you're talking about Tunic since that's the one in the title, but...

[@AutumnReel4444]

Everyone is different, so I don't begrudge people not figuring out how to level up, but the manual has 3-4 pictures of the altar on the page in question. Seemed pretty clear, but everyone is different.

[@surrog]

Much love from France! Great video, as always :)

[@xiggles]

This video in and of itself is a great example of the overall point, because I probably wouldn't have considered playing Tunic before watching this video and having done so will greatly improve my experience

[@zzzoom89]

tunic is a great game to backseat. the whole thing about asking people for help is real- i was the co-pilot for my roommie's play, and i kept spotting secrets and puzzles he never realized were puzzles.

[@stevegruber4724]

this is me when my wife plays the LEGO games. i know they're couch co-op, but they don't hold my interest (no shade, they're well made, just not my jam) so i'll watch her play and every once in a while go "oi, what's that shiny over there?"

[@justinwinikoff7117]

Great video. Find it funny you mentioned monster hunter positively though because that was one game that over tutorialized and got me to quit. Tunic nailed it!

[@Asmonix]

Wow man. After watching all Extra Credits vids I love watching yours. Great content

[@krumblemumble8628]

I love watching people play this game! It definitely seems like it gets them genuinely intrigued that the tutorial booklet is written in a different language. Super fun to see how different people explore the world and some puzzles

[@krumblemumble8628]

*solve puzzles

[@RedCaesar97]

Oh great. I am on my third Tunic playthrough and I have never seen that place before. I don't know whether to hate you or thank you for the motivation to try to find that place myself (I really do not want to look it up if I can help it).

[@ffinlo]

Same here... I couldn't help but scream in shock!

[@KhanShotFirst]

It's on the map!

[@omatsei]

I finished the game and got the true ending, and have no idea where that place is. If anyone knows, can you reply?

[@RedCaesar97]

@@omatsei I found the place. There is a portal that opens up in the trophy room, BUT I have no idea how I made the portal appear. And I do not have all the trophies, so I do not have all the trophies so I do not have all the symbols. And I think two of trophies require access to the Ruined Atoll which becomes inaccessible after you turn into a ghost.

[@kevincrisp6407]

@@RedCaesar97 You can change back to daytime by sleeping in the bed in the old house. The one near the windmill. I'm not sure if you have to visit all the hero's graves after getting the dash first though.

[@akirachisaka9997]

On the flip side, I feel like games obscuring methods of interacting with the game that are almost impossible to figure out without help from Google is pretty annoying. As in, in Eldenring, how to two hand an equipment was something new and never explained. So is how to switch to using left hand weapon on horse. It doesn't really feel like an eureka moment when discovering this. It only feels like a insult and a frustrating moment when you get punished for not knowing how the game's controls works.

[@Drachenlabyrinth]

Actually, two hand wielding is explained in the in game tutorial. It's just one of the small details we tend to forget after a while.

[@vizthex]

was not expecting that casual roast of french, but I'm here for it lmfao.

[@xXfasteddyXx]

Beautiful summation. You and Dan Brown are the best

[@JandreLom]

I always find watching your videos gives me a craving to try out all the games you mention or cover and it has had the benefit of deepening my understanding of video games as a whole and has introduced me to some new genres that I never new I would like so much. On the other hand because of that craving I end up not spending as much time with some games and get distracted by new shiny games. It's a bit of a double edge sword but I'm always having fun because of it

[@rafaelbarrosdarocha5022]

As a brazilian studying french, I had a laugh with that bit (by what you said and by reading the message).

[@maltezachariassen7496]

I just finished Disco Elysium and I really felt the "lost the track of discovery"-thing you talked about. A lot of the game is wonderfully paced around discovering the world, but there are just SOME places where you just get stuck in the: "I have no idea what I'm supposed to discover next" loop. It also didn't help that I failed the only obligatory check, 3 times, even though it was near 80% success rate.

[@caseypatterson1477]

I just started playing Tunic and I'd say I've got just far enough to not have anything spoiled. I'd found the dagger and leveled up, but seeing you blow open the wall towards the end really got me. Now I've got to go around blowing everything up.

[@AnotherDuck]

It's like the original Zelda: bomb every wall, burn every bush.

[@coyoten8897]

the doodles really are the best part of the manual, tho "Everything hurts way more when i'm tired" is my favourite line in there. I love how you illustrated your points but im not completely sure abt how i feel that you showed so many lil things, tho thats in part because i know _why_ those are spoilers sooo

[@needsuggestions]

This was great, always find your stuff really interesting to watch!

[@hardrada_]

The moment I started playing Tunic, I knew there will be a video here about it. Such a masterpiece, the best game I played in years, even though most of the time I'm not into indie titles. Just finished it, loved every minute, but I wasnt smart enough to figure out the "true" ending. After looking up a guide, I feel equal amount of guilt and satifaction. 10/10.

[@AJ-uf4sh]

Guides are extremely overrated when you have communities that can give you subtle hints!

[@Eaguru]

I don't blame you for looking up that final part... Page 9 was so silly

[@AnotherDuck]

@@AJ-uf4sh Assuming you find communities without people who're all to eager to tell you absolutely everything. Especially everything you're doing wrong, but also all spoilers they can think of.

[@AJ-uf4sh]

@@AnotherDuck Not the discord server! The discords for other metroidbrainias such as Outer Wilds and the Witness, along with the subreddits, have communities that like to give subtle hints and guidance. It's to be expected when that's the point of these games, to figure out things on your own as much as possible. People spoiler tag everything that should be.

[@SeventhSolar]

Don't worry, I'm pretty sure there are 0 people in the world that actually managed to do the true ending without some collaboration.

[@duneysands946]

9:25 Bug Fables! I just started that one, and I’m loving it so far!

[@ViddyOJames]

don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining. they did this in the most obnoxiously terrible way possible.

[@jmh8817]

I probably won't be playing tunic anytime soon but I'm looking forward to all the video game design youtube gang talking about it a bunch because it seems really interesting.

[@thecompleteanimorph]

I think this might be part of why I really love Metroidvanias even though I'm not very good at them--they do this stuff way more often than most other genres.

[@plyrni3]

I was suprising to find French in your placeholder x)

[@sentry3118]

Just beat TUNIC for the first time. Absolutely wonderful! I'd say I did 95% of it by myself, but I did need to look up a couple puzzle bits where I wasn't sure what I was supposed to do :P Definitely one of my favorite games now.

[@flying-sheep]

The things I looked up was 1. “how to upgrade your stats” like mentioned in the video and 2. a few golden cross paths that I couldn’t be arsed to transcribe (like the water reflections. I got the idea, I just don’t want to do the work to transcribe it)

[@demonicdonut22]

You always have excellent videos. Great content, well researched, clever, smart, humorous... All that good stuff. Thanks for another game I'll buy and add to my list of games I want to play but probably won't.

[@Deadflower019]

I think there's one other pitfall that makes obscuring information a risk, and you kind of explained it as a solution. Getting information from outside the game makes the "knowledge as progression" harder to pull off. As cool as those "Even more things you didn't know about in Breath of the Wild part 52" videos are as they show just how many details are in the game, it also goes to show that sometimes games like these just don't tell you enough. Encouraging the player to figure it out for themselves is great and all, but if you don't strike that balance, it can lead to them playing the game on the Wiki. Don't Starve and it's many iterations struggle with this and I'm deliberately avoiding looking things up as I pathetically crawl my way through Risk of Rain 2 because someone in the comment section of a music video said that doing that would ruin the experience. If a game is going to make you figure things out on your own, it NEEDS to give you enough hints so that you want to figure things out on your own. It's like school in a way, where the goal is to learn. You're meant and encouraged to learn, but if you get too frustrated or unmotivated, you end up cheating. The difference is that you *want* to learn a game, but you're taking that away from yourself, which is much worse imo.

[@natnnntan]

I think that there are actually many ways in which to create a "safety net" for the different ways different players think. One way, which I believe I got from a GMTK video, is to ensure that there are multiple routes/methods/ways to access a crucial item/skill/path. An example would be how FromSoft games or Hollow Knight often provide multiple routes to different areas to ensure that even if players missed something, they weren't locked out from continuing the game entirely. Another method may be to provide optional hints, like how the squid person in Death's Door can give you clues on where to find items you might be missing - but only if you're desperate enough to ask for it. I just think that "ask a friend" isn't something a dev can rely on to happen, especially when the game itself isn't built for communication in ways that Dark Souls, Elden Ring, etc. are. I still believe that there are a good few ways the devs could make it more accessible while not diluting the joy and mystery of exploration.

[@oricalu448]

Ok, the fox avatar is officially the cutest one yet!

[@julieford2039]

This was great! Thanks for the video and all the info!!! ❤

[@adragar513]

1:33 As a french guy i was curious what you did put there, but i wasn't expecting that, thank you :)

[@generalZee]

Half Life Alyx's Jeff Chapter deserved a whole video to itself. Literally my favorite moment in my over 3 decades of gaming.

[@LInktheherooftime999]

Just started tunic yesterday. Leaving a like, I’ll be back when I finish.

[@OMGItsBirdmanArchive]

I hope the next big game company knows about this channel and watches every single video- we'd have a perfect game 😭

[@SantiagoNSilva]

"Might as well be an incomprehensible alien language, like French" Sound accurate.

[@starshapedwings3582]

This video was the reason why i purchased and played tunic! Thanks Adam

[@baffling_bookworm]

La blague avec le manuel du jeu au début de vidéo est fantastique. Des choses comme çà me rendent heureux que je parle un peu Français. Comme toujours une vidéo très intéressante. Tu m’as convaincu d’acheter ce jeu. Salutations d’Europe.

[@hoobslice]

Tunic reminded me of The Witness multiple times while playing. Firstly, the way Tunic handles puzzles towards the end of the game just reminded me a lot of The Witness. Strictly using your own knowledge and environment to find the solution. But also in the way that neither game gives strict tutorials. In The Witness, you’re left to figure out how each puzzle element works without a word of tutorial and Tunic tackles tutorials in a very similar self-discovery manner which I think elevates them both.

[@The4stro]

ok you just made me go and play tunic

[@Angelica-sq9lh]

I think it's funny how people didn't know how to level up, since I myself discovered it by accident! I was thinking about the items, looking around the manual and then saw that I could do something with them. As I have a fear of losing important items, I burned one of the ones I had a lot of... And them my life increased! So I started burning it all. Hehe Another thing that helped me was a little guide of the basic mechanics of the game. For some reason, I just ignored that you could run and I had mistaken the parry animation with using your shield, I won't even say about using the special by accident and not knowing what I had done. After reading it, I felt absolute shame for not knowing. But now I feel lighter about it, since it helped me and wasn't a game breaking spoiler. Anyway, thanks for the video!

[@aubrey7303]

Tunic's soundtrack hits hard, my fav is from the beach location😍

[@axew3127]

This game is just “Hello, lore?” *picks up manual page* “Incomprehensible, have a nice day” And I love it

[@Ixidora]

That text message conversation had me dying laughing, absolutely brilliant.

[@RBRSC]

For a funny modern example of 13:00 . If a player enters the open world of Elden Ring, and instead of going forwards, turns right and down the hill. They will potentially miss the tutorialish NPC for following grace guides, how to summon other players, the crafting kit. If they continue to not follow along the games semi-designated path to Gatefront, instead side tracking around the open world. They can also miss the entire functionality of levelling up, the Horse, and the main NPC hub for hours. Though they will be forced into this eventually about midway through the game.

[@twiggylegs6687]

I think that the social collaborative style of play talked about at the end of the video is an amazing way to get friends to play games completely blind. When I played hollow knight, I found myself getting lost regularly on my way to unlocking specific parts of the game and had to turn to yt. This, in turn, would inevitably spoil different aspects of the game. When I encouraged my friends to play however, I was able to guide them in the right directions whenever they were stuck, which was arguably just as delightful as playing the game for the first time.

[@michaelcheng9987]

A game of information is actually quite a well-known idea, I'm thinking of "social deduction" games. Not only that, but the distinction between a game having "complete" information or "perfect" information. That being said, the distinction here is that a video game can, as you said, find ways to guarantee a "baseline" knowledge. Knowing everything removes that joy of discovery, but you can't exactly play if you know nothing. And it's really great personally when a game can inspire such collaboration and camaraderie. It feels like being young and trying to play your older sibling's cool game. Even if I never had that experience personally, it's a wonderful feeling. And asking for help is such an important and valuable human instinct I wish would be celebrated more.

[@safe-keeper1042]

Such a fantastic game, really deserves more attention and praise.