Sinking of SMS Grosser Kurfürst, 1878

The Ironclad Turret Ship SMS Grosser Kurfurst, or “Great Elector" was commissioned on May 6, 1878, just in time to participate in the Imperial German Navy’s summer training cruise. That cruise would prove disastrous for both the ship and the Navy.
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Script by THG
#history #thehistoryguy #maritimehistory

[@InglouriousBradsterd]

Dear THG, I've watched you from your beginning on YT. I think you're so smart and can convey education so well. Could you have ever imagined how much money you would make just by teaching people history? Not many history degree holders can do that! This has turned into quite the serious business. Congratulations. You earned it!

[@dmacrolens]

[@Marin3r101]

You act like he doesn't have weeks to research a topic... please stop brown nosing for likes.

[@guytansbariva2295]

​@@Marin3r101 No, he means Lance is a natural teacher. Many teachers and college professors are dull, bland and boring, no matter the subject matter. Lance is the exact opposite.

[@drsch]

He doesn't teach. He lectures on short stories/topics. What he does is very different from teaching in an official capacity. He's very good at what he does, and he writes interesting papers that he reads here. But it's not teaching.

[@stuartriefe1740]

Good morning fellow students, time for us to take our seats and quiet down!

[@RetiredSailor60]

Good sunny morning from Ft Worth TX to everyone watching....Beware of hurricane season on the east coast...Stay safe...

[@RAnthis]

Hempstead Texas here

[@frankgulla2335]

Dear history Guy, thank you for such an informative and heartfelt tale of a naval disaster, oddly an early German naval incident. Well told and well illustrated with photos and illustrations.

[@cbroz7492]

...now I understand the Kurfurstendamm in Berlin..aka the 'Ku'damm'

[@davidlogansr8007]

Good Morning! As soon as I saw the “History Guy” notification I clicked but was still third! I enjoy maritime yarns immensely, certainly from my having grown up in Baltimore and seeing thousands of vessels of all types in my childhood. Thank You Lance Geiger, you truly are The History Guy, and rank, imho up there with Dr. Mark Felton and Drachinifel, lofty company indeed! Perhaps the story of the cargo submarine Deutschland? Thank You!

[@gyrene_asea4133]

One can't help but have a fondness for the "Port Cities" of the world. I am sad when I remember all the ships at anchor in Philly and San Francisco in the 60's and 70's, ships that are seen no more. Consolation can be delivered by channels like THG and Drach.

[@reallyseriously7020]

Again I am educated by the History Guy. I've never heard the term 'stern castle'. Now I realise why ships have a 'fore castle'. One for both ends.

[@debbieellett9093]

This was awesome! I had never heard about this before. I'm very glad I found your channel. Thank you for providing amazing history.👏👏👏

[@stacymcmahon453]

Couple notes. First, Frederick William was called "The Great Elector" because his hereditary title included the privilege of casting a vote for the Holy Roman Emperor, as the "Elector of Brandenburg" in a process roughly analogous to electing a new Pope. There were something like seven other electors among the German nobility. Second, "Preussen" translates as "Prussia," not "Prussian." The plural "Prussian" would be "Preussisch" in modern German. Thanks for this video! It's unusual to have such a detailed treatment of the Prussian navy prior to World War I. You typically only hear brief mentions in the context of the equally obscure (to western readers) Danish or Swedish navies. It's interesting that, despite its small size, the German navy suffered as much as any other from the rapidly evolving technology of the time. Even the British with their outsized shipbuilding industry had a hard time in that era getting ships from drawing board to squadron without either redesigning them a dozen times in the process or putting ships into service that were obsolete from day one. The same issues contributed mightily to the annihilation of the Russian fleet at Tsushima.

[@thatsnotoneofmeatsmanyuses1970]

The other major factor leading to Russian defeat at Tsushima being the Kamchatka...

[@michaelplunkett8059]

​@@thatsnotoneofmeatsmanyuses1970 And a shortage of binoculars?

[@user-mf8te6xx6g]

I can only imagine seeing that in person onshore, or other vessels; to go down in five minutes with such a large compliment must have been heart-wrenching for those who bore witness. Tragedies like this goes on, unfortunately. Great doc, THC

[@TinMan0555]

And, another great lesson is “in the can”. Thank you for your good work.

[@RAnthis]

Thank you for yet another fantastic video with amazing insight. You truly are a master narrator of history. Sharing such tragedies reminds us of how fragile life can be and how quickly even the mightiest of warships can disappear in a virtual blink of an eye. I'm glad you're there to guide us through the history, as you say, that deserves to be remembered. Cheers

[@KR4FTW3RK]

A lot of difficult german names to pronounce. I think you did pretty good.

[@ralach]

Not directly related to this disaster but you mentioned the second schleswig war; one of the danish warships, that saw service in that conflict, still exists..the steam frigate "Jylland" (afaik, the last remaining original steam frigate)..she's on exhibit in the small city of Ebeltoft (located on the Jylland peninsula, which the ship was named for).

[@gyrene_asea4133]

That is pretty cool to know. Has Drachnifel been alerted to this ship? Might be a fun episode as it is just on the edge of his era of interests and doesn't require a 17000 mile trip to the antipodes to view! If I am in Northern Europe I will find a way to visit as I'm sure the engineering is wild.

[@-jeff-]

Thanks for the sea story whose course took the wrong turn.

[@tomlindsay4629]

Odd coincidence that I'm fiddling around with a 1/700 scale kit of this ship.

[@backwashjoe7864]

Pre or post collision?

[@tomlindsay4629]

@@backwashjoe7864 , it will be pre...if I finish, so many tiny parts, and a three-masted rig!😯

[@emilyrauwerdink3451]

​@@backwashjoe7864😂

[@Zorglub1966]

Very interesting! Thank you! Schleswig => "chlessvich" Gloire => "glwar". Wilhelmshaven => "veelhelms hafen".

[@tomh6183]

Thank you again Lance for another wonderful lesson.

[@ValerieprimcessAmanda]

Thank you History Guy, for your efforts in your videos. I appreciate you

[@domsphotography]

I live in Folkestone and have often walked past the memorial.

[@lesleedetchon]

I love history and I’m learning so much . Thank you so much for your channel

[@russwoodward8251]

A great story in history. Thank you.

[@steveshoemaker6347]

A sad day....Thanks Mr THG🎀

[@jeffbangkok]

Saved this for breakfast in Bangkok. Another excellent bit of history I didn't know.

[@BasicDrumming]

I appreciate you, thank you for making content.

[@sten1939]

Great as usual

[@RailfanDownunder]

Superb work Sir

[@dmikulec]

The ram bow worked! Hurrah!!!!

[@harryshriver6223]

An excellent insight into the history and development of the German Navy. It seems the groundwork was being laid for the eventual war to end all wars.❤My condolences for the lost sailors and officers and kudos to the British Navy for their valiant rescue efforts to assist.

[@TheHistoryGuyChannel]

Actually, not in this period- it would be hard to compare the 1867 plan to the High Seas Fleet. The naval arms race to come would be spurred by the work of Alfred Thayer Mahan and the launch of HMS Dreadnaught.

[@harryshriver6223]

@@TheHistoryGuyChannel Thank you for the clarification, I am still a novice at some aspects of European history.

[@Marin3r101]

1899 is what year you want to start looking at then look into 1910s thats when you see these crazy naval arms races really pick up.

[@markcolyer1989]

Well done Sir

[@MarshOakDojoTimPruitt]

thanks

[@marchellochiovelli7259]

Very nice engravings with this presentation.

[@victormiranda9163]

first time I read "Grosser Kurfurst," it translated in my head to "Fat Kurtis"

[@davincisghost9228]

Hey Lance...lovely stuff. I hope your cat is well. ♥

[@backwashjoe7864]

That's incredible that a ship could be lost in this manner. It makes me want to learn about the details of the signaling procedures and the experience levels of the crew, pilots, and captains, that surely contributed to the accident.

[@britcom1]

You should do a video on the history of The Conch Republic.

[@105381000]

It is ironic that the next ramming disaster was the British loss of the HMS Victoria in 1893, by the HMS Camperdown, during a naval maneuvering exercise, in the Mediterranean.

[@constipatedinsincity4424]

Hey History Guy ,👋🤓 do you by any chance have any outfits like 🤔 royal garb or Revolutionary regalia. Or any pictures of you decked out ? I know that I would like to see. 👀 And if I know my highly intelligent and striking fellow classmates they would find great pleasure 😊 and appreciation for that image!

[@CAMacKenzie]

The problem with the ram as a ship's weapon was that the ships closest to the bearer of the ram, and thus those most likely to be rammed, were the ships of the same fleet. This was bad enough in 1878, when gunnery ranges were still relatively short, but developments were occurring so rapidly that by 1890, when HMS Victoria was commissioned, Victoria's guns could, in theory at least, reach out 7 miles. Not much, compared to guns of the First World War, much less the Second, but long enough that battle ramming was becoming increasingly unlikely. Nevertheless, new battleships were still being built with the ram, and thus Victoria suffered a fate remarkably similar to Großer Kurfürst in June 1893, sinking rapidly after being rammed by HMS Camperdown.

[@keithbusick6859]

I have enjoyed your channel and you never disappoint keep up 👆 the good work

[@SRW_]

Mr history guy can you do a video on the der grosse passenger ship first laid down in 1896?

[@briannicholas2757]

Ive often heard it said the Prussia wasn't a nation with an army but rather an army with its own nation. Their naval developement and the end of the German empire is a fascinating story.

[@frednone]

I thought she had 12 water tight compartments? You'd think they could have gotten some of them closed?

[@Svartalf14]

Thanks for telling us the meaning of Kurfürst, I never knew what the Berlin Kurfürstendam was about.

[@Guangrui]

Bismarck: fine, just fine, you know what? For heaven's sake, I never wanted the damn ironclad in the first place anyway

[@constipatedinsincity4424]

Back in the Saddle Again Naturally, !

[@kiwiprouddavids724]

You really should be doing a history series on Netflix or something like that, I'd almost put your presenting on par with David Atimbra . I'd love to see what you and a team could do with more resources and time sort of thing......there's just so many great peaces of history you bring up ,I don't know how you would chose subjects and how you'd make them all tie into each other, maybe do like a civil war timeline but with all the kind forgotten history and weard history combined into it....😅 anyway have a great day 👍 and just wishing you some good karma

[@honodle7219]

May they rest in peace.

[@janlindtner305]

👍

[@ntvypr4820]

There had long been friendly/warm relations between Great Britain and the Germanic States. Perhaps you forgot to mention that at the time most of the British Royal Family was of German descent. Queen Victoria had married a Prussian prince of House Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, her female princess children, some married into Germanic royal houses. Kaiser Wilhelm, German/Prussian royalty at outbreak of WWI was one of Victoria's grandchildren. All that made the German declaration of war on the British nation all the more incongruous. It had long been royal thinking that intermarrying across the nations one from another was a prime good way to forestall poor or bad relations from becoming so bad as to allow themselves to deteriorate into complete war. After German bombing of London during The Great War strong anti-German sentiment led to King George V to change the royal name in 1917 to "Windsor" from Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. Great video! I like all your vids as I am a great lover of all forms of history.

[@neilbuckley1613]

It didn't help that the German bombers that sropped bombs on London were Gotha aircraft.

[@rebsredone450]

A credible attempt at German pronunciation. Well done!

[@bendean4255]

Must have been a lot of people that couldn’t swim and no life jackets!

[@1bert719]

HMS Warrior and her sister Black Prince had there gundecks contained in an armoured box known as "the citadel" to prevent taking from now or stern. This term is used to this day in the Royal navy in reference to that part of a warship designed to withstand NBC warfare.

[@kpdvw]

Navigation 101;.....never turn into the path of a closely following ship....!

[@RealTylerBell]

i wish i had some extra money to give you for amazing work and videos you do

[@quillmaurer6563]

Interesting how the ram was the culprit - I recall there were several friendly sinkings of naval vessels in this manner. My understanding is that for a period of time ironclad ship armor could survive hits from the most powerful guns of the time, so ironclads were not capable of sinking each other - as was seen in the famous battle of USS Monitor vs. CSS Virginia ending in stalemate with neither ship capable of critically damaging the other. Thus, until guns caught up, it was thought the only way to sink ironclads was to ram them. However, unlike guns or most other weapons that could be fired or not, a ram is always present and "armed," will damage any ship they hit whether intentionally or accidentally. Thus they probably in the end sank more friendly ships than enemies. Even as guns increased in power, rams were retained for a period of time until it was concluded they posed more threat to friendly ships than enemies, and thus were removed.

[@anthonyjackson280]

Ramming was also seen as viable due to the increasing speed of steamships vs the incredibly slow reloading of the guns of that period. Breechloading was still some years in the future. Reloading the muzzle loading rifles and then retraining them could take several minutes. It was commonly believed that at the range of engagements at the time a ship could close for a ram attack before reloading was finished.

[@quillmaurer6563]

@@anthonyjackson280 Interesting - good point. Re-loading required pulling the gun back in and manual muzzle-loading. I suppose a ram bow could be seen as the ship version of a bayonet on a musket, or some early flintlock pistols that had clubs incorporated into the stock - fire once then resort to hand-to-hand combat as reloading would take too long.

[@anthonyjackson280]

@@quillmaurer6563 Good simile. On the ships with turret mounted muzzle loaders the guns were reloaded from outside the turret. The turret would rotate fore or aft (depending on position) to line up with casement guarded openings in the deck, the guns would be depressed into loading channels (almost reverse torpedo tubes) and the powder and shells would be rammed hydraulically. Then the guns would be re-trained on target.

[@quillmaurer6563]

@@anthonyjackson280 Interesting - makes sense, an advantage of turrets over the traditional broadside. But still relatively slow and cumbersome compared with breech-loaders. Actually come to think of it I believe some modern tanks, especially those with mechanical reloaders, have the gun go to a reloading position, but they can re-train much more rapidly, this whole process taking seconds instead of minutes. I've seen videos of such tanks, immediately after firing the gun automatically goes to the maximum-elevation position.

[@josephmatthewclift1985]

Late to party, but still curious to ask: wasn't the first ironclad ship battle actually between the CSS Virginia and USS Monitor? 5:23

[@TheHistoryGuyChannel]

The Battle of Lissa is generally considered to be the first major sea battle between ironclad warships. The difference is that these were ocean-going ironclads, whereas Monitor and Virginia, and the other battles between ironclads during the US Civil War, were not ocean-going, but littoral vessels.

[@tomasinacovell4293]

They must have all been caught below decks as the weather was too calm to have that many lost so easily?

[@jamesfracasse8178]

What does S.M.S stand for? 4:57

[@TheOfficial007]

Im curious what state the wreck is in. Being that a boiler blew does not breed much hope of anything. Also at the initial point of the wreck they probably made it a burial site.

[@TheHistoryGuyChannel]

historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1466825

[@TheOfficial007]

@@TheHistoryGuyChannel wow right under the hour with this link. Makes feel bad for not looking it up myself. Thank you so much for your content. I have seen it be an inspiration to so many.

[@BA-gn3qb]

SMS Wilhelm was then renamed: Spearfish.

[@TheRiverPirate13]

When anyone brings up "Ironclad" ships I immediately think of the US Civil War. I keep forgetting that sea going Ironclads were in use in European waters. What I am curious about is where American Ironclads packing more powerful cannons than their European counterparts? I know we had the rifled cannons which spelled the end of stone forts.

[@kimhohlmayer7018]

Learning becomes fun in your capable hands. Now, how about seeing what you can find on whether certain groups within the American Army used bow and arrow and cross bow to lie in wait for the Viet Cong to shoot them silently as they marched by. A guy came into the local antique shop and began telling me about his brother serving in Vietnam and wrote home asking them to ship him his hunting bow and arrows and described what I cited above. This was the first I heard such a thing and I grew up during the Vietnam War.

[@jeffwalther3935]

I just realized, thanx to THG, that it is understandable now that the submarine emerged, as "Germany" developed into a nation-state, as quite uniquely, their distinctive and singularly-used naval ways and means of sea warfare. In comparison to all other maritime powers, surface fleets, battles, ships and strategy, as opposing probable other nations' surface fleets in high number, with all the other nations' far logistical, technological and experiential superiority of supplies/ports/crew COULD have been completely neutralized by the Germans with submarines if things had been otherwise different. Not only was practical, high seas fleet operation of the U-Boat exclusively German ONLY because the Kriegsmarine could never realistically hope to challenge and defeat the RNAV conventially, but most other navies too otherwise. That's why U-Boats were so singularly, and ultimately infamously, relied upon by the Germans in the 2 world wars. The first, effective, submarine-launched torpedo was ALSO the first practical use of independently-guided (seaborne antiship) missiles. THESE two technological breakthroughs were thus BIG gamechangers at the turn of the 20th century; determined what and how what happened - and didn't happen.

[@jrgordon47]

They were, at that time, close Cousins of course...

[@capnstewy55]

The Kaiser took out the Elector. This is about as close to funny as a maritime disaster can get.

[@davidrichie9570]

It’s “koor-foorst.” I’ll admit, much harder to pronounce is La Gloire - better to just call it by it’s English name - Glory.

[@chazmclean6014]

What...no pirates?

[@chocolatefrenzieya]

The Gross Kurfurst, The Grosser Kurfurst and The Most Gross Kurfurst.

[@jkilby27able]

👍👍👍

[@thomasrengel5577]

A new one! I was going to complain about your [deliberately?] atrocious German, but then heard your French was equally bad. Great presentation! In Memoriam I will go play Toll, Toll the Brave, about the Royal George disaster of 1780.

[@bigsarge2085]

✌️✌️

[@NoahSpurrier]

Germany never quite got the hang of a Navy.

[@OhioDan]

Their U-boats managed to do a number on British shipping for quite some time, though.

[@NoahSpurrier]

@@OhioDan Yes, but serving on a German U-boat meant one had a 70% chance of dying. After a while Germany ran out of U-boats and experienced crew to operate them. It wasn’t a sustainable naval strategy.

[@merlinwizard1000]

43rd, 31 May 2023

[@richardmourdock2719]

The irony of the British government's sympathy for the German accident is easily understood when it is remembered that Queen Victoria's first language was German.

[@lesleyb5591]

And Queen Victoria's daughter Vicky was the Crown Princess of Germany.

[@davidfurst2807]

Furst is the correct pronunciation

[@davidfurst2807]

Fue rst

[@robkunkel8833]

(The) Kaiser Wilhelm caused a great, unnecessary disaster. Yes, Kaiser Wilhelm. Should have been seen as an omen of the world that would come from this name, 25 years later.

[@nicolletiti]

Hi Roxanne, I am so jealous you got that Ipsy bundle .. I ordered it they sent me a notification that it was shipped but the tracking number they sent me never became valid... so I messaged Ipsy and they refunded me immediately saying they can't send one now... bummer but I am so happy you got it.... Congratulations to your winner and I am sorry I missed this live

[@jamesomalley4556]

It's a great ship in World of Warships ! Lol

[@TheHistoryGuyChannel]

Is that the 1913 WWI Konig class Battleship? I didn't think the game went back to ships from the 1870s.

[@jamesomalley4556]

@@TheHistoryGuyChannel Lol who new.

[@beerdrinker6452]

Third comment. Love your videos.

[@T.2.S.A.]

German prince entitled to take part in the election of the Holy Roman Emperor.

[@chaseschneier1076]

Straighten your glasses....

[@karlbrundage7472]

This episode is poignant, considering that the Communist Chinese are currently looting the graves of sailors lost in the Second World War.

[@ronriesinger7755]

The term “British Channel” is an alternative to “English Channel”. There is another site called by the same name: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Channel?wprov=sfti1. Great video, as always.

[@bytesback.]

Being Engish I have never heard the English channel being referred to as the British channel.

[@ronriesinger7755]

@@bytesback. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Channel?wprov=sfti1. The video refers to it twice as such.

[@bytesback.]

@@ronriesinger7755 Ah, historically yes. !