Are NHL Goaltenders Underpaid?

[@InsignificantNick]

It's just nice to see Carey Price in a thumbnail again.

[@markhodge7]

A special goalie, amongst the best. Took a style to the pinnacle.

[@jakobfinney]

My favorite Athlete of all time :)

[@JoeNauk-q5l]

Miss him

[@jakobfinney]

@@JoeNauk-q5l Im a leafs fan and I miss him every day lol, He will always be my number 1 athlete

[@derekcox6531]

Totally!

[@jamiepike6909]

I think the problem is you can have a bad contract for a forward or defender and others in their position can cover it up. It’s tough to have other goalies step up and hide that contract or to pay big on another goalie.🤷🏻‍♂️

[@DucksUpDogsDownCatsSlide]

THIS

[@TheShootingShark]

Exactly!

[@bbeaup]

There are less goalies on a team so any standard deviation outside the norm is much more harmful to the overall team. There are 20 forwards on the team. There is just inherent more risk to signing a bad goalie for too much money. How many true gamebreaker goalies are there always on? Not many. It’s management which just is logical to a certain degree.

[@dillonharnden-shea57]

San Jose Sharks and Martin Jones say hello. We know this all too well.

[@voightkampffchamp]

@@bbeaupSD! A person of culture I see

[@theScotian24]

Price who hasnt played in years STILL being the highest paid goalie ""in"" the league is hilarious and ridiculous.

[@heath2483]

Of course it is - if YOU couldn't work or do your job would you get paid your salary for years after? No of course not. Unless you paid very expensive loss of income insurance. These people live in a world most of us can only dream about. And as much as I love hockey they don't "deserve" to be paid this much. It's a game. They're not curing cancer or saving lives

[@TH1RDP3RSON]

⁠@@heath2483yes of course i’ll be getting paid even after im not able to do the job. i signed the damn contract! so gimme gimme, unless y’know, see ya in court.

[@Toro_Da_Corsa]

So he's kinda injured and on the bottle or what

[@michaelbecker2435]

well 1 if your contract says you make x if you play and y if your injured you'd get paid. secondly they get paid exactly what their boss thinks they should be paid. when you become an owner of a team you can decide what your players "deserve" to be paid​@@heath2483

[@evertandersson9499]

Depression, I do believe

[@patch8376]

THG at his best. Looking at both sides of an argument and giving both due consideration.

[@NoPe-n1j]

And wearing a sick jersey

[@infinity-vm4ul]

The thing is with goalies is that when they fall off, they fall hard. Whether it be injury or a mental thing they rarely recover. So I would agree that the cap hit for goalies should go up a bit, but the term length should not exceed 6 years with very few exceptions.

[@johnnewton3592]

To add to this, they take a longer to groom to prepare for the NHL level of play and the pressure on them can be enormous.

[@jaysleeper264]

Bigger risk factor

[@77tml]

I think Bobrovsky put a scare into GMs when he was unplayable for a large portion of that contract.

[@jeffreym.8957]

He was bad in the playoffs for seemingly ever - until 2022/23.

[@teapea8184]

Bobs overall stats have been good for the past 3-4 seasons tbh. The Panthers as a whole were trash before that. Granted some of the highlights he had on the first seasons are truly amazing on how bad it was. And now the 10M caphit seems resonable, so if he had a negative effect before, now goalies point at him being on year 6/7 and playing better than in a long time.

[@richardprescott5939]

@@teapea8184 for the first 4 years of his contract Bobrovsky was adequate, not excellent. They needed Lyon to GET them into the playoffs. The Panthers worked around his cap number. Dollar for dollar, Price's contract was bad, Bob's was not well spent. They won 5 years later so you can point to that. BUT if salaries go up , and they start paying goaltenders, they can't all win. And if stuck with an underperforming goaltender, you are in bad shape.

[@iVerstappen]

@@77tml I think the best way to look at this would be comparing goalies and pitchers to skaters and fielders. Most of the high paid players are going to be the every day athletes. Goalies may play 50 games a year but that’s still far less than McDavid playing 80

[@77tml]

@@iVerstappen If you compare it in minutes played that's 3000 min. to 2050 for a 50 game goalie.

[@woodsie22]

I think a big issue is that goaltending is such a crapshoot and teams generally don’t know what they’ve got. I mean, Binnington was the Blues 4th string goalie in 2018, could have easily retired or gone to Europe with how he seemed to be forgotten in the Blues system. And he’s since been the starter for most of the last 5 years. Charles Lindgren was essentially forgotten in Montreal, got a chance ironically in the Blues system and grabbed his opportunity in Washington. Anyway, my point is, teams see that they can be cheap on goaltending and spend the rest of their money on the rest of the roster, because although a great goaltender can get a bad team further than it should (Price), a great team can go far with questionable goaltending (COL), which should cost less

[@jeffreym.8957]

And outside of one good year, Binnington has been overpaid.

[@woodsie22]

@@jeffreym.8957 disagree, largely because of the players that are in front of him. And although it doesn’t necessarily look like it away from Blue’s fandom, he has stabilized the position for the Blues. Basically for the last 30 years, it’s where goalies who were at the end of the of the career or ones who were consistently inconsistent went. And fans were always fighting between who should be the starter/backup. The last goalie I can remember such a large portion of Blues fans agreeing on was Fuhr. And I don’t think if I’ve ever seen as many jerseys of the current goalie in the crowd in St Louis

[@LARGO125]

Shannon talking about players with names like Swayman, Sorokin and Vasylevski making $8m/season. Me as an Oilers fan, crying in "Darnell Nurse."

[@adamwest1138]

Calgary fan here- crying in Huberdeau. Although he's looking ok this year

[@jonathanlong4066]

I generally think because of the volatility of goaltenders you shouldn't spend more than 10% of the cap on both goalies in the tandem. Ideally 2m-6m for each one. And if they want more, they need to sacrifice term, no more than 4 years for north of 6m. Those contracts can sink a team for a really long time if there's an even a slight decline from elite/top 15 to middle of the pack starter.

[@Rps2800]

Imagining Cam Neely throwing his water bottle when he sees this video title

[@BvG_Venom]

I mean, that guy threw a tantrum over a salt shaker. Doesn't take much to set him off.

[@patch8376]

Underrated comment. To be fair, it was a salt shaker that was thrown his way.

[@BvG_Venom]

@@patch8376 "who's the dead man that hit me with the salt shaker!!"

[@jamielennard3388]

$10+ million: Franchise calibre goaltender, arguably the best in the world $8-10 million: Elite goaltender, key piece of the team's core $6-8 million: Above average starter $4-6 million: Average starter or high-end tandem goalie $2-4 million: Below average starter, high end back-up, or average tandem goalie

[@Toro_Da_Corsa]

Hellybyuck should be 10 million+ then. Skinner should be below 2 million.

[@tchevrier]

swagman would therefore fall into the $6 range.

[@wuhaninstituteofvirology]

& -equal to league minimum (no higher) = backup-backup-backup who will likely never play an NHL career game (& toil away in the minors forever

[@MrPek-fe9fp]

Lankinen though.

[@hollywoodpizzamtg]

That transformers Hot Rod jersey is one of the coolest jerseys I’ve ever seen! You really do have an amazing collection.

[@Quantum-yz9fc]

I think the real issue is just that there are fewer positions open for goalies. Lower demand, lower price. Law of supply and demand. We'll see what happens when Shesterkin becomes available next year tho. Swayman is limited as an RFA, but Shesterkin will be a UFA and can really run up the market. I wouldn't be surprised if a team like Utah or San Jose made a big swing on him.

[@Kareptakahajame]

Daaaamn man, That Transformers jersey is amazing❤️ Also great and interesting video as usual🏆

[@pipoj5]

Yes they play the most minutes and get the least amount of money also the most important position in hockey

[@JBTriple8]

also the Hardest position in Sports even more than NFL QB.

[@Leroy-df3ee]

And they are the most inconsistent from year to year.

[@theScotian24]

They also play like 55 games. And they don't have to SKATE AROUND.

[@TFNVulkan]

@@theScotian24 never seen Mcdavid who skates around lose 20 pounds in a game like bobrovsky. Bozo

[@frankiezucchet2271]

@@theScotian24 As a goalie myself, I assure you that the up down, side to side and sometimes diving for desperation saves and recovering takes an extraordinary amount of cardio. Also, 55GP x 60mins = 3300 minutes per season. As compared to 82GP x 25mins = 2050 minutes per season. Yes you can say the puck isn't always in the defensive zone but a goalie still needs to be mentally focused on the whole game which is tiring mentally.

[@atomiczam4066]

I'm of two minds on this. It's the most important position in any professional sports. Yes, even over NFL quarterbacks; they can be saved by a strong O line and talent at RB and WR. Goff isn't worth being the 3rd highest paid player in the league if his team doesn't support him. On the other hand, it's hard to gauge. Goalie stats are so often team stats, aka the Chris Osgood argument. It's also harder to predict going forward year over year. I remember goalies coming out of nowhere going from decent journeyman to playoff stealing linchpins; Tim Thomas and Johnathan Quick come to mind. But there were years no matter how many pucks Broduer or Roy stopped they couldn't will their team to score on the other end. Long story short, probably? But if they're under paid they need to be on shorter contracts given how volatile they can be year to year. It makes the most sense to sign them to bonus filled incentive contracts, but then you're inviting drama if the back-up steals the starting role or just wins too many starts. Then it's a problem if your starter misses his bonus because the coaches started the other guy.

[@idiotidiot5821]

Idk if theres more important than a pitcher or QB. Weve had non pros get shutouts in NHL games. You arent EVER getting that with a fill in pitcher or QB, sorry.

[@isaiahvining6023]

Idk man, Darcy Kuemper, Stuart Skinner, just to name a couple of goalies who made it to the finals (one won), and they both just play goalies. I mean Stuart Skinner is below average imo, but his team is so good offensively that it doesn’t matter, until they ran into Bob

[@razealghoul]

I think golaies might become the running backs of the NHL. Where a performance of a back has as much to do with the defense around them as it does their own skill. Are there really good running backs? Yes, but they get vastly underpaid when compared to other positions. Look at how little they paid Saquan barkley. The challenge for goalies is value over replacement. Every year there area random goalies who make it into the top 10 golaie performance of the year when you look at save % or goals saves above expected. Right now a team would take the gamble of picking up a random goalie than to pay their proven starter. Imagine if boston just did what they did swayman and picked up a random 3rd pairing defenseman to replace mcavoy if he held out.

[@stevekendra8983]

The thing with goalies... their play is unpredictable in the short term. How many times have we've seen a goalie play lights out one year, get a huge contract and shit the bed afterwards? More often than owners would like. That's probably why goalie contracts aren't as expensive as say forwards or defenseman.

[@_roko_]

To further demonstrate your point, check out the video "Never Trust a Goalie" by pinholes graham. More often than not, high value long term goalie contracts age horribly with very little year to year consistency to be found.

[@rickpetrone6771]

Can you think of one example where this is the case? I can think of about 2

[@Toro_Da_Corsa]

@@rickpetrone6771 Steve Mason, Jack Campbell. There's a bunch that i cant think of

[@michaelfortunato3117]

This was a great video. Thank you for the amazing white board analysis. Looks like you're right about goalies being underpaid and dis-proportionally paid as well. How many minutes does a goalie play per year versus even the 82 game grinders? They're very underpaid as you've shown.

[@petrograd4068]

A reason goalies fall off so fast is that you only use 2 main goalies. If your best forward has a bad month and performs 5th-6th best of your forwards, he's still a second liner. A top defenseman dropping to 5th-6th is still a regular. A goalie dropping to 3rd is a fringe NHLer, at 5th-6th he's not even in your AHL team anymore. If they made every team's 3rd goalie waiver exempt the value of goalies would go up and then their salaries would rise.

[@richardprescott5939]

Waiver exempt? How would that increase salaries?

[@Nathanielhiggerson66]

@@richardprescott5939it does make sense in theory, but I can’t explain it since english isnt my first language. it could have the opposite effect too as far as I know though, the league adapts well to new rules

[@richardprescott5939]

@@Nathanielhiggerson66 I wasn't being critical. Just not sure what you meant or what you thought it would do. It was a question

[@11DNA11]

Shannon, you forgot that the Islanders pay for a 3rd goalie that hasn't played in a decade.

[@Aces8932]

Growing up, goalies were my favorite players. From Roy, Brodeur, Hasek, and all the other big names, it hurts to see goalies get lowballed so much. I hope Swayman gets everything he's asking for, same with Igor, so that the market hopefully comes up, at least some, for the goalies.

[@IcyRobb]

Don’t get me wrong, I like Swayman a lot. But I find the argument of “Swayman hasn’t been a starter for 2 years yet” a good argument. He looks like a big deal, but if he’s really asking more than 8 million, than 8 years is way too long imo.

[@gordonmacdowell8117]

For a few seasons of the Bobrovsky contract, a lot of people were thinking he was the next Bryzgalov signing, until he perked up to dominate in the playoffs. The failure of the Canadian goalie development pipeline means less star goalies in the NHL and that skews the numbers a bit, when there should be at least 2-4 more elite goalies from Canada. All the best goalies are coming from the US and Europe, which is an embarrassment for Hockey Canada, where the priority last decade seemed to be paying out hush money.

[@Toro_Da_Corsa]

Its nonsense though. Canadian goaltending will correct back to the mean.

[@gordonmacdowell8117]

​@@Toro_Da_Corsa expecting the Canadian goaltending problem to correct itself is how we got to the where we are now. Finland didn't become a goalie factory because they waited for it to happen. It starts early, with team practices run for the benefit of the skaters and not the goalies. If you structure shooting drills around the goalie, it's not just better for the goalie but better for the shooters, who both learn less bad habits to take into actual games.

[@pyrielrising4338]

This is an area where you can totally see the GM assessment. Risk management....you get your franchise goalie in his prime and you try to lock him up for nearly a decade because elite goalies do not grow on trees, two years in he blows out his knees and you end up paying 60 million dollars for him to go to every specialist, faith healer and witch doctor on earth...only to wind up paying a former player a ton of money to stay home and play with his kids. Brutal.

[@Toro_Da_Corsa]

All while paying a guy 2 million who almost gets the job done anyway

[@davidyoung5114]

It would be a major shock if U.P.L. doesn't have as good a season as he did last year, given Buffalo's major overhaul of the bottom six forwards. They should be substantially improved on the penalty kill, plus a healthy Samuelsson should help out on the defense. With Bryam getting used to his new team, and Lindy Ruff back as coach, any player who doesn't contribute defensively will find themselves sitting on the bench, if not up in the press box!

[@ark7901]

I see it as a field where only a few goalies are worthy of top dollar because they're elite, generally healthy and consistent to the point that even in a bad year it's not much of an issue. Outside of that, it's a huge pool of players that are highly variable and flex from being a Vezina candidate to something that is barely NHL-quality in just a few years. It's just difficult to know what you're going to get and that's why teams are hesitant to play ball unless they're dead certain that a player is franchise caliber.

[@ronpeacock9939]

The biggest issue is something you hint at. how many goalie spots exist? about 2/team... how many goalies are on NHL rosters vs are out there? The difference between McDavid and the worst at his position is vast.. the difference between Vasilevsky and the worst.. not quite a big a difference (Bob just won the cup and Price is on the rack). How many times have those lesser goalies gone to the finals? Last year with Vegas, Skinner in Edmonton on the losing end this year... lesser goalies can take you to the promise land. Only a few have totally carried a team (enter Dominick Hasek... Sabres probably were not good enough to even make the playoffs an are 2 wins away from carrying the cup). It's a tough spot.. and yeah, the goalies get the short end of the salary scale.. but many teams win with an average goalie. If only good goalies moved on in the playoffs... I think youd see a big difference.. the problem is.. so many goals are scored that it wouldn't matter who was between the pipes that it don't help their cause.

[@Ben.Mangels]

Hill and Skinner both played amazingly in their runs.

[@jeffreym.8957]

@@Ben.Mangels Skinner was very average. He had a .901 save percentage in the playoffs. This is below average! If not for Edmonton's insane PP, they would be out in the first round every year.

[@4517onlyglory]

8 million certainly should be the max to pay Swayman but Boston not really pushing in a positive direction since they traded Ullmark too early and all the mess later

[@scoruja]

Would love to see a look back at the end of the season to see how each goalie situation played out, and what the take is on different contracts with hindsight.

[@jnsl1982]

Think about it this way: If this was a lunchbreak in school with all the players lined up against a wall and coaches (or GMs) were to pick in order, would the goalies really be left until guys at their caplevel? Owen Power and Hellebuyck being picked at the same time? Kadri being picked WELL ahead of Demko, Ullmark, Markström or Jarry. Blake Coleman ahead of Ottinger? Of course that wouldn't be the case, that's crazy talk. A handfull of guys would go first, McDavid, Leon, McKinnon, Makar, Pasta and a couple of other guys, but surely there wouldn't be three rounds of everyone picking before Sorokin was picked (as the caps dictates there would be). Good on Swayman for standing his ground, the wanna rip him off.

[@mitchellcampbell9616]

What a great video. Never thought of it this way before. Really puts it into perspective

[@clydeblair9622]

Brilliant analysis.

[@blairnl5627]

THG certainly brings out the errors of many hockey thoughts! Like Knight is a decent backup goalie, yes might be slightly high, but he makes more than 7 teams tandems combined. Goalies are underpaid!

[@lenkennedy9214]

The goalie is the most important position. Having an elite goalie can steal games and help teams win series they had no business winning. And they stay on the ice the entire game while most players only play about a third of the game.

[@Jay-yr9oi]

Worth noting that having different markets for different positions is pretty common in sports. Looking at football, for example, you generally don’t see salaries for tight ends being compared to salaries for QBs. Part of it is how important their positions are, but also how many a team needs, the difference between a top tier player at the position and an average/above average player in terms of wins, and how unpredictable they are. NHL GMs seem to see goalies the way the NFL GMs see running backs. Yeah, they’re vital, and a great one can really make or break your season. But, also, they’re unpredictable, can fall off suddenly, more teams are platooning the position, etc

[@mariovaccarella6854]

Great Video, as usual, Shannon

[@TheOriginalTuhat]

6 mil for Binnington is a steal

[@jeffreym.8957]

Yes. After two really bad seasons...

[@TheOriginalTuhat]

@@jeffreym.8957 LMAO you gotta watch the games bud, 50 had the league’s 3rd highest GSAx and was the only reason the blues were in playoff contention

[@clem9332]

I know it's relative to how much the league brings in but I can't help but laugh in disappointment seeing established superstars in this league make less money than NBA role players.

[@Rps2800]

To be fair the NBA has its own problems, it seems like salary growth is outpacing cap growth and a lot of guys who should be getting role player contracts end up having to take less money

[@judistzoinkiski3395]

where was this crying 10+ yrs ago? you know the reason why NBA,NFL are paid more.

[@JBTriple8]

the NHL Cap is going up that wont be the norm for a long

[@IHateMyAccountName]

The NHL dresses more players, so there's less to go around.

[@Art29Art29]

Also the nba has way less players per team then the nhl so every player makes less

[@lanemars]

I think the rise in scoring has made these numbers stay the same whe. Price won the hart jamie benn also won an art ross with 87p so goaltenders were seen as more important

[@corvus5782]

The "fourth-liner vs backup" $$ argument is probably the best one: ~20 games trusted to the equivalent of a call-up defenseman is ridiculous! I would love for Shannon to do a backup comparison for SC winners!

[@patch8376]

It's nothing personal on goalies. It's just a riskier position to finance. Possible radical idea, but maybe a dual cap, a separate cap for skaters and goalies? It is apples to oranges. Goalies don't play every game, but usually are on the ice for (close to) the full game when they do.

[@kaiuche8640]

Shoutout to the g1 hot rod toy jeresey shannon's wearing. Looks dope.

[@JoeNauk-q5l]

It's about return on investment and goalies are the most important but also the most difficult to predit so its a balancing act. Cant fault Swayman for trying to play his hand, gotta take your shot when you can, he just has to be careful not to push TOO far and blow it all up

[@WarioSaysSo]

The big problem is in the NHL that a team can have a bad contract for a forward or a defender as other players in their position(s) can cover it it required. You are allowed to have 2 dressed goalies on your active squad, and it is much tougher to have a goalie signed big-time if that the performance don't live up and/or combined with injuries. So trading away that goalie with such strike(s) will be very difficult with a big contract as the risk/reward scale is not in favour for bidding teams. Its rare you have caliber of Patrick Roy or Dominik Hasek offered with-out taking that huge risk so teams must be so carefull. However a great goali deserves his pay if it is on elite level.

[@snafaofficial]

Great video! This is good topic!

[@Wogger72]

GREAT JOB ON THIS ONE 👍 SAME DEDICATION SAME RISK OF INJURY! EVERYONE LOVES THEIR GOALIE

[@blackvx]

I think it's challenging to evaluate a goalie vs a forward or dman for GMs. Maybe they don't want to do the mistake similar to the islanders with Rick DiPietro contract.🤔

[@markhodge7]

Dallas is strong with Desmith, if Ott plays to potential. Totally makes them a favorite if Ottinger can go in rested, and the team is amongst the top in points.

[@LARGO125]

Dallas adding DeSmith just made every team in the west a little more nervous. As if any team wants to play Dallas in a best of 7 in the first place...

[@mrgumdrops5]

I remember growing up and playing hockey and my uncle telling me, "Why would you want to play goalie they make half of what NHL players make and they have to play the entire game." It made a lot of sense as to why someone would question playing goalie for their career.

[@nickbuchanan4208]

Hockey Guy, you bring up some great points about the lack of pay for goaltenders. I think you are right in alluding that some of the top goaltenders are "better" than other players making more, see Sarros with 110 players making more or whatever. However, you say they are paid like 3rd and 4th liners like it is wrong? There are less roster spots for goalies than there are skaters. If there are not as many goalies to occupy salaries available then the standard deviation for goalie salaries will be larger than skaters. Also, the range of salaries for goalies is smaller than the range of salaries for skaters which lowers the standard deviation of goalie salaries. There are 3rd and 4th "tier" goalies in the NHL occupying roles that would ideally suit a 2nd tier goalie. Should teams pay a 3rd/4th tier goalie like a 2nd tier goalie? Ultimately the majority of goalies are 2nd/3rd string meaning there are less goalies asking for more money, thus pushing the expected salaries for goalies over time.

[@suklaalevy1]

I don't understand how Saros gets only 5M and Oettinger only 4M. Would have expected to both have 7mil salary.

[@thebutlerart]

As someone who’s played both forward and goalie at a decent level, I can say that the work goalies have to put in is worth more than what they’re getting paid. Not to mention, to become a goalie at a higher level, parents have to shell out a TON of money for camps to train and make connections. Maybe the solution would be higher paid, shorter contracts? But that isn’t really fair as well. I’ve seen people argue that forwards and defenseman who fall off can be covered up more on the ice. You so sure? Nurse looked like a liability last year in the playoffs. And I’ve seen one awful defenseman on teams just totally give away games. “Oh but the defense plays well in front of said goalie.” More oft than not, that team plays that way because they know they can rely on the goalie to bail them out and play consistent. Bob on the Panthers fits that mold. Your argument here is valid. And Swayman/Shesterkin are correct, in my opinion. Enjoyed this video!

[@JBTriple8]

I have a ton respect for Goalies yeah Hope Swayman resets The Market for Goalies they are valuable as much Forwards and Defenseman.

[@michaelbecker2435]

arguably more. however much like rb in football it's under paid and under appreciated

[@JBTriple8]

@@michaelbecker2435 Goalies are QBs of the NHL not RBs Hardest position in Sports of All Time.

[@michaelbecker2435]

@@JBTriple8 what ever you say bud. you look at goalies and compare them to forwards, it's the equivalent of RB to QB in terms of pay. personally all these over grown children are over paid.

[@JBTriple8]

@@michaelbecker2435 why are you here then? you overgrown manbaby

[@jeffreym.8957]

Saros has a better resume and just signed for under $8 million per.

[@mitchelleade6512]

Another consideration is the change to splits of games; when price signed, they were still heavily relying on one goaltender. Nowadays you've got a tandem to pay because you cannot rely heavily on one. All that pressure on one person is stupid, it's more that they're hedging bets with a tandem, rather than goalies simply being paid less.

[@zachkoenig1508]

Part of this also comes down to percentage of players though you’d have to think? Sure there are 44 players that make that much and only 3 are GK but there are out of every 77 players only 5ish are GK so that checks out percentage wise. Each tier of GK is just smaller for who can fit in it comparatively.

[@victorgagnon5929]

Goalies are definitely RELATIVELY underpaid (comparing them against other NHL players). It'd be interesting to take all those AAVs on the board and average those to see what the average goalie gets paid in the NHL, then compare that number against other positions, or even the rest of the NHL. I'll do some searching...

[@victorgagnon5929]

From the numbers on the board, the average NHL tendy salary is ~$3.24M, which would get bumped up w/ Swayman's new deal, but it is already propped up by still counting Price & Lehner. The average salary in the NHL overall is actually pretty close.

[@timliddy1]

Also, what wasn’t mentioned here was how much more stress goalies go through during the season. I compare it to the NFL quarterback. Another thing is how much time they spend on the ice versus players. Oh, and should we mention how much weight they lose in each game with sweat compared to players. They deserve more!

[@stanschmenge1965]

He’s in a similar situation to Gordie Howe way back when. Ted Lindsay begged Howe to demand more money because he was the best player in the league and everyone else would slot in below him. Swayman is setting the bar for all the goalies looking for new contracts going forward. He’s not just being greedy, he’s looking out for his brothers and probably getting some pressure from the NHLPA as well.

[@nikolasgaunt580]

Skinner is not a top 10 goalies 10 better off the top of my head are: 1.Saros 2. Vasy 3. Demko 4 Sorokon 5 Ottenger 6 Ullmark 7 Swayman 8. Bobrovsky 9 Helleybuck 10 Shesterkin

[@Toro_Da_Corsa]

Skinner is one of the most technically unsound in the league

[@luthers_janitorial1995]

I’m still pissed the Bruins lost Krug…if they don’t get Swayman signed I say get rid of Sweeney too!

[@atopermusic]

The issue is the risk associated with goaltenders. It is a very volitile position and an NHL calibre goalie has the potential to steal games as much as the next. If your goalie gets injured, your team is pretty much relying on luck, whereas a player gets injured and you can more easily fill the spot with the number of players on the roster

[@FC-tq1yj]

GMs from around the league are currently begging youtube to delete this video... lol.

[@forgottenfamily]

Bobrovsky initially being an albatross probably scared people off, IMO. You've also had a general growth in teams that want a decent 1A/1B tandem over a solid #1 goaltender. There's a bit of a reset as Bob and Vasilevski proved crucial. It creates a lot of other problems, but I could imagine teams being more comfortable with there being a number of starts bonus to help even out the risk of an individual goaltender.... but boy is that true of a lot of positions for a lot of things. Ultimately, it's a supply and demand problem and Boston and New York are dealing with the question of whether the demand is finally returning

[@brianmcevoy1990]

No other position can influence the game like a goaltender.

[@stevesmart170]

As a Blackhawks fan, the Mrazak contract is interesting. Last year they extended Mrazak, Dickinson, and Foligno. All for two years, and the thought was all were over "market value" The Hawks can do this because they were so far under the cap and these deals come off in two years when they may need space. So to add to your argument, if Chicago were better and closer to the cap, Mrazak probably doesn't get as much.

[@Cryptogab94]

Yes goaltenders are underpaid.

[@byronjohnston1421]

Love the Hot Rod jersey!!!! Transformers rule!!!!!

[@warhero82]

Goalies are a lot like running backs in football. Rarely do you get more than a few really good years out of a goalie before they start underperforming. Yes there are goalies over the years who have dominated throughout most of their contract, but in this day and age it's pretty hard to stomach a large contract when you can pretty much guarantee they'll fall off sooner than non goalie players who are much more consistent.

[@petrograd4068]

A reason goalies fall off so fast is thst you only use 2 main goalies. If your best forward has a bad month and performs 5th-6th best of your forwards, he's still a second liner. A top defenseman dropping to 5th-6th is still a regular. A goalie dropping to 3rd is a fringe NHLer, at 5th-6th he's not even in your AHL team anymore. If they made every team's 3rd goalie waiver exempt the value of goalies would go up and then their salaries would rise.

[@brendanjames7551]

The big issue is both of the 2 first big goalie contracts, Price and Bobrovsky basically fell flat on their face (Bobrovsky did eventually recover it) and teams have probably been wary of investing that much in goalies because of it. Price hasn't played in years. Bobrovsky after his contract had numerous down years and a lot of people wrote him off during that time. Goalies have shown to be the most volatile position in the NHL. They can play well 1 game, suck the next. As someone who plays goal myself, that's exactly what happens to me. Teams are wary of investing high in a goalie who could just turn around start playing badly. With forwards, say hypothetically we take Timo Meier, his production hasn't been as high as expected, if it dropped more, New Jersey may not be happy with that contract price, but they can just bump him down a line and make it clear they expect to see improvement. And now that he's a line down he's less likely to play against other top lines and his numbers may improve, confidence and everything regained and he gets moved back up. With goalies, if a goalie has a bad long stretch, they can't just drop them down a line and expect improvement. I think most teams just see it as a far bigger risk to pay goalies high than players. Not only that, the gap between the best goalie and the worst in the 64 starter/backups is smaller than the best players against worst. Most teams have maybe 2-3 players seen as elite on average. You could argue about 10 starting goalies in the league are elite nearly 1/3rd of them. When that scale of skill is more narrow, teams are going to be less willing to pay high for them, because they can get something else slightly worse for far less. Like Binnington, he isn't 60% of Bobrovsky's skill level. But he makes 60% of him. Why? Because Bobrovsky's slightly better. And yet that very small improvement in quality demanded that amount more. Most teams would just rather pay the guy worth 6m for a just slightly lower performance level. Like its .908 vs .915 last year. Both above the .903 average last year, and the .915 guy had the Stanley Cup winning team in front of him that was considered one of the best defensive teams, so you could argue those numbers are a bit inflated. He is better, but there's not some massive gap between them justifying that pay discrepancy of 4m. Both have also had a few down years on the contracts. Like take two player contracts signed a year apart. 12.5m for McDavid. 11.64m for Panarin. Panarin isn't as good as McDavid. But he is an elite player. Top 20 in the NHL easily. Yet the gap between them in pay is less than 900k. I'd say for how good Panarin is, signing his contract about a year after McDavid. That gap was probably right around the market point in comparison to McDavid and other players. But the difference between him and some 4th liner making 1.2m is extreme in skill level and production. That just doesn't happen with goalies. The difference between the worst starting goalie and the best is like McDavid compared to Kadri or Larkin. One is really really good, the best in the game, the other side is still an extremely high level talent who is head and shoulders above more than 2/3rds of the league. Goalies have such a smaller gap in skill between them. So it becomes a matter for GMs of, is that extra .007 save percentage really worth 4 million dollars, when this other guy is still elite himself?

[@jaysleeper264]

The differences in paying for potential i thought was a really good point. I do think there are a few examples now and again though. Knight in Fla. Binnington a few years back, yes he had just won a cup, but only had about 1/2 season as an NHL caliber goalie if I recall correctly.

[@nelloismello]

Canucks should put Demko on LTIR, so they can make major moves at the deadline to be a contender

[@ayroau]

Brodeur didn't have so much injuries due to his style of not always playing the butterfly

[@zept2170]

His hybrid style was amazing to watch, but it was developed due to his height. Today since most goaltenders are 6'4"+, they have to stay in butterfly or else too much of the net is exposed, but that leads to higher straining of ligaments and such. Honestly I would love to see a smaller goaltenders play hybrid again, maybe we would see a goalie have 70+ starts again

[@ayroau]

@@zept2170 Today's Helle, Saros work load will be the max

[@billdapp2491]

Goalies are the last line of defense. Yes they are underpaid. I'm thinking 15 - 20% of cap should be realistic. But.....Goalies have always had the monikor of being 'strange'.... Maybe that's why there seems to be an idea that they are 'weird' and don't want to pay them too much.

[@ryanhoeksema2191]

I agree that the salaries tend to be lower. The problem is term in my mind. Goaltenders tend to be more inconsistent (in expectations) than other position players, especially over 7-8 years. If term was resuced to 3-4 years, i think they could push those salary numbers much higher and match that with their play.

[@danmoore1678]

There are 32 starting goalies in the NHL. There are 96 first line forwards, and 64 top pairing defenders. So when you say 17 players have a cap hit of $10m+, assuming 2 of those players are Price and Bob, that's less than 10% of top skaters (15 out of a total of 160 first liners and top pairing guys). 2 out of 32 goalies is again just under 10%. I'm not saying everything is fair here, and I'm not saying a reset to the market isn't warranted. But I don't think the numbers you're using necessarily support your point without more info.

[@f.n04]

It’s a lot like how every position or set of positions has its own market in the nfl

[@pawnypawny4496]

As you mentioned there is no easy answer. I just started NHL25 and to see what happens in Franchies-Fantasy-Draft. First Goaltender was Hellebuyck on 24, next Shesterkin 28, 34 Vasilevsky and 39 Demko. I was a little suprised with this result. I didnt tought 4 goalis were taken in the first 2 round. But how important are goaltenders really? One thought experiment: Take 2 beer league tems and add McDavid to Team A and Swayman to Team B. I quess Team A with McDavid will win 10 out of 10 games. Even if you "downgrade" from McDavid to lets say Kreider. If you isolate the goalie position, they can not win you a game. Best outcome is not to loose ( 0:0 scores). When it comes to the money talk, it is not positiv for goalies case, if in interviews after strong games goalies tend to say "it was a team effort". An other thought may be that goalies participate in 50% (1A 1B tandem) up to 75% of games (Saros 64 games last season). Should you value more the ice time, because they play all 60 min in games they are in or that they participate nothing in a substantial amount of games? I think goalies are underpaid, but not in the top range. Startes with 2 to 4 mio are in my opinion underpaid.

[@FalloutUrMum]

I'm not going to say that anyone who makes more in a year than I'll likely make in a lifetime is underpaid. But relative to other NHLers, yes

[@martyloo]

Remember in 2021, Cal Petersen signed a three-year, $15 million extension with the Kings?

[@VRRanger-e9e]

If I was a GM, my concern wouldn't be $/ year, it would be length of contract. If you have a great goalie, pay him well on a shorter contract. Shesterkin at $12 M/year for 4 years is fair for what he provides. The reduction in cap hit is due to the length. If a goalie really wants that 8 year term, they'd have to take considerably less. The concern is usually term. Carey Price not finishing his contract handicapped the goalie market a bit too.

[@drivethru6155]

If goalie contracts were more flexible due to their lack of positions available... as in you can bury the contract even though they travel with you or they are waivers exempt. I think contracts would go up after that.

[@davidfitzpatrick6535]

Yeah People say u dont need a great goalie to win the cup but look at who was in goal and won the cup since 2019. 2019 Bennington 2020 Vashi 2021 Vashi 2022 Kuemper/ Francouz (Kuemper was injured in game 1 and didnt play the rest of the series) 2023 Hill 2024 Bobby. I would make the argument that YES u do need a great goalie to win as except for Francouz (who came in due to injury) all of these goalies are pretty good. Yes Bennington has fallen off as has (arguable) Vashi but I dont think its true that u dont need a great goalie to win.

[@Wayf4rer]

Vegas won with Hill, look where he was a few years ago.

[@davidfitzpatrick6535]

@@Wayf4rer That's my point though. Hill was a backup (Florida I believe?) who never had the chance of starting (with good reason since he was behind bob) he gets the chance as starter and is lights out for them. If u DO NOT HAVE A GOALIE U CANT WIN IN THE PLAYOFFS. Im a Leafs fan so maybe its my trauma coming out but its true.

[@jeffreym.8957]

Osgood, Hill, Niemi - none are great. You don't need great. Binnington was a one-year wonder.

[@mirkokraovac9068]

Good point hellebuyck not in top 50 earners but will make any team - league or international - as one of the first names. That was just a combo deal wily old Chevy pulled on Scheifele and hellebuyck. Chevy doing miracles persuading players to stay in Winnipeg and get underpaid while you’re at it

[@jeffreym.8957]

Helly's last two playoffs have been Hellish. Maybe if his team ever went anywhere he could ask for more...

[@andrewgreen815]

I don't think there are any underpaid goaltenders in the NHL. I can think of a few goaltenders that are overpaid.

[@jeffreym.8957]

Montreal was a disaster partially because of Price's contract. It didn't allow them to pick up necessary free agents in areas that would have helped them more.

[@jkliao6486]

My way of looking at this: Goalie at best plays for 60-70% of all the regular season games for the team, so they are not underpaid as it stands rn because the max salary for a goalie is roughly 60-70% of a skater one. Also, where can I get that hot rod jersey, that's the coolest thing I've ever seen!

[@b.c.2281]

That's true but there are other factors. If you want to play the reductive numbers game a goalie, even playing 60% of the schedule has more ice time than any skater. They have more direct impact on wins and losses than any individual goal scorer. A skater can have a bad game, a bad string of games and be covered by his teammates. A goalie underperforming cannot be masked to the same extent. People frame that as goalies being "high risk" but not as "high pressure" and that's a shame.

[@jkliao6486]

@@b.c.2281 Which is why this is my way of justifying the argument, because it's open-ended and neither side is objectively wrong.

[@bartsanders1553]

To me it seems the league is in a transition period where goaltending generally has lagged behind what offenses are doing and will be developing new techniques to adapt in the next few years. It'll look like goalies mostly underperform until then, and most GMs won't be willing to pay top dollar until the risk factor is migitated slightly.

[@SerMeneros]

Currently nr 1 goalie plays around 45-65 matches + playoffs in a season, so you also need to pay to the guy who playes the rest 20-30 matches too. So I feel like nowadays you pay for the tandem in total and not just the nr 1 guy. So practically you're paying for 2 guys to do 1 job and reserve & split the money/cap accordingly. Also if your, say, 8 million goalie decides to absolutely stink for year or two, your team is absolutely screwed with the "waste of money" at the net. Hence goalie market is much more "reserved" when it comes for dishing out money for them, in case they just decide to go mental vacation for few years of the contract period.

[@badastronaut2112]

i'm just here for the jersey... and the great video...

[@kidcrisp]

Modern style of goaltending is physically demanding and no goalie will ever play 70+ games again. You really shouldn’t be comparing the goalie salaries to skaters because the two groups play a different number of games. The counterpoint might be that goalies play more minutes but the games they sit are games where they have zero impact on the outcome. Most starters are only playing 50 ish games a season these days. Tandems are more popular than ever. You need two quality goalies for long term success, or you risk your starter burning out in the playoffs. Hockey isn’t the only sport where there are pay discrepancies by position

[@carolinedoan6150]

The big money should be for game-breakers: whether they be wingers, centres, defense or goalies. Who is more important and breaks games for the NY Rangers: Shesterkin or Panarin? I'm pretty certain most people would pick Shesterkin, or at least equal. So his pay should reflect that. The problem is exactly as THG outlined: that there is a different market for goalies ie they are not compared to skaters. My general reflection is that goalies seem to have a thankless job: they have the most important role in the team with the most pressure - every single loss is "their fault", even a shutout... Combine that with a scarcity of job openings and a shorter overall career that's more physically demanding/taxing than for skaters. And also underpaid given how important they are. You wonder why anyone would be a goalie.

[@mattblom3990]

Man, the Swayman thing is getting more ugly. His agent is super mad with Neely dropping the immortal "I'd have 64 million reasons..." saying that offer had never been made. They will spend a few days to "consider options."

[@mannyoliveira776]

Bos trade G - Swaymn, prospect fwd - Lysel to Carolina for G - Kotchetk J.Drur 3rd Rd pick (2027 or 2028)

[@saabviggen00]

My POVon this that they are just stuck iv awill stay that way if Igor doesnt reset. So a Swayman is stuck unless he signs short term and bets on himself

[@tuomasvalinen3084]

Saros only paid 5 is great contract and if he gets raise next year he deserved it. Saros,josi and forsberg have been reasons that nashville is even close to being playoff team. Next season is going to be interesting to watch nashville, they look so much better on paper than last few years👍

[@brianturko3481]

If a defenseman blocked 30 shots a game and stayed healthy for 60 games and the playoffs, they would give him Karlsson money. I always thought it was weird how the "most important position in hockey" is paid less than pretty much any other player. Pitchers in baseball play less games and get paid way better if they are good.

[@MarkBonneaux]

TL;DR I can see a major pay bump coming for goalies soon but I can also see the contract lengths getting to

[@simon-pierrelussier2775]

Woll has played 32 games (39 with playoffs) for TOR, that's 48k$/game played. That corresponds to a 2.88M/yr salary for a d-man that plays just 60 games per season.

[@kimepp2216]

Maybe goalies should sign shorter deals. 8 x 11 mill seems a compromise between safety and term. Like Price, if you cannot play after year two because of injury, you still get paid.

[@Malforian]

I think the problem is swayman doesn't want to sign a long term contract with the cap going up for what the bruins are offering

[@Nunnleberry]

Saros' contract already looking like a bargain. I could totally see him winning the Vezina this year.

[@stevenembree7669]

Let the market decide. Free agency will set the mark based on performance