#2 CATL LFP vs Tesla NCA // Full Rundown of the Science and Specs

What are the advantages and disadvantages of CALT LFP type batteries versus Tesla NCA type batteries what’s the basic science behind them? Today I’ll compare a standard LFP Chemistry like CATL’s to the NCA chemistry produced by Panasonic at Giga Nevada for Tesla to provide a Full Rundown of the Science and Specs.
For those looking for information on the BYD blade battery and Tesla’s 4680 with LFP, those will each be covered in separate videos. This video mainly focuses on chemistry, whereas the Blade and 4680 are mainly form factor changes that come with a host of additional benefits.
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Timeline
00:00 Introduction
02:00 Background
02:55 LFP Chemistry
05:03 Solving LFP's Shortcomings
08:03 Voltage
08:50 NCA Voltage Profile Explained
09:31 LFP Voltage Profile Explained
10:01 LFP Wrap Up
11:35 NCA Chemistry
13:08 Safety
14:44 Energy Density
18:08 Performance and Handling
20:04 Cold Weather Performance
22:39 Cycle Life
24:12 Robust to 100% Charge
25:30 Charge Rate
27:16 Cost
27:43 Scaling
28:35 Summary
#BattChat #BatteryTwitter
Intro Music by Dyalla: Homer Said

[@batterybulletin]

Fantastic video Jordan! No one can explain better than you in layman's terms. I hope everyone will realise how LFP will revolutionize the EV space and Grid storage. Specially for Grid storage with limited SoC window able to cycle 15k -20k cycles or 15-20 years lifetime.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Great information!

[@emceh]

I think with limited SoC LFP could reach 30-50 years lifespan. No limits should easily make 12-15 years.

[@digitalwallis]

Looks realistic. I use an serie of 2.nd Life Winston 100Ah they have all 3150 to 3750 driving Cyles (SwissPostal Service) all above 82% and after another ~100 Cycles 20% to about 85% no additional Degradation Mesureable.

[@DaveDugdaleColorado]

Wow this was one of your best videos, I feel like I really understand the difference now after watching this one.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Thanks Doug! One of my favorites too!

[@tobiasmmueller]

Yeah, agreed. Top notch content.

[@Martinit0]

Magnificent! As a solid state physicist I have to say this video is really well done and presented with great clarity!

[@thelimitingfactor]

That's a big relief! I was trying to simplify, but not so much that the technical detail was lost.

[@tommckinney1489]

Most people won't take their cars to "end of life" (1 million miles). I think it's significant that LFP only degrades around 2-3% over the first couple of years of normal driving, while NCA typically degrades 10-12%. This is the difference people will notice.

[@rogerstarkey5390]

Jordan, Have to say that I see your complete series becoming a valuable educational resource of many teachers. (This is the first for a while where my head wasn't spinning at the end! 😉)

[@thelimitingfactor]

I hope so! I know if a couple teachers using them. It's shocking to me that this information isn't already public.

[@NickGobin]

@@thelimitingfactor Just because it's public doesn't mean it's accessible, well formatted, and well presented. What you're doing adds real value - believe it! And thank you!

[@marioescalona1640]

Great info put together you cant find anywhere else. Cant wait to see the coming LFP blade vs 4680!

[@KnowArt]

For Tesla's mission the most important factor by a long shot seems to be total ICE vehicles kilometers displaced by EVs. In other words, the lifetime range of the battery. Easy win for LFP it seems

[@dreiak]

It makes me so happy that channels like this exist. I am so proud to be part of the hyper nerdy Tesla community lol.

[@nextmovevideos]

Hey Jordan, glad you liked our two videos on the Model 3 LFP type battery. For interested viewers, we have tons of charts and hand written subtitles in both: kzbin.info/www/bejne/b3-TZqN-it6gqq8 Tomorrow, we release a video that will probably again attract international attention. Best regards from Germany, Stefan

[@w0ttheh3ll]

Bin schon sehr gespannt auf das Video morgen. Eagerly awaiting your new video tomorrow.

[@thelimitingfactor]

🤜🤛🤠

[@FreeAgent99]

NextMove, best BEV channel in Germany!

[@frederikjmx]

Regarding thermal management there is one point to make: LFP batteries require more energy to change the battery temperature because the LFP batteries are less energy-dense and therefore heavier. Anecdotal evidence that I've heard suggests that supercharging preconditioning on the SR+ happens earlier and 30 minutes of preconditioning is not uncommon. (not helped by only one motor providing heat in the SR+ instead of 2 in the LR)

[@harsimranbansal5355]

I think it might be due mostly to the 1 motor, since it’s half the energy so it would need double the time to heat the battery to the same temperature.

[@frederikjmx]

@@harsimranbansal5355 I'm comparing the SR+ variants, all have only one motor so it's a fair comparison

[@harsimranbansal5355]

@@frederikjmx ohhhhh, sorry I misinterpreted that.

[@frederickstirnkorb3094]

Wouldn't the heat pump negate some of the issue?

[@andrewt9204]

I've easily had pre-conditioning take 30 minutes or more minutes on my 2021 LR. Even when temps were above 50F. In the winter time, it takes even longer. I've had preconditioning start nearly an hour before arriving at a SC when it was only 15F outside. I wonder if it's even worse with LFP.

[@QuiddelQuaddel]

Concerning the comparison with respect to range: NCA heavily degrades outside 10%-90%. Ideal range of operation is even 20%-80%. LFP can be operated in 0%-100%. If high DoD is a frequent occurrence in a given application, thats another advantage to account for on the LFP side.

[@CL-gq3no]

That is accounted for in the cycle life numbers. The 800 - 1200 cycle life of NCA vs the 3000 - 4000 of LFP is based on a 0% to 100% charge/discharge cycle. If you use a 20 - 80% charge/discharge cycle for NCA, its cycle life will be similar to that of LFP @ 0 - 100%. So it's basically two different ways of saying the same thing.

[@QuiddelQuaddel]

@@CL-gq3no I do not think that you are correct and it was not done that way in this comparison (table near the middle of the video) as far as I can see. I get his and your point regarding the longer lasting range retention for LFP, but that was not my point. It would be unfair if the range would have been limited to a window of 20-80% in the case of NCA without saying so in aforementioned comparison. My point is: If you require a high DoD regularly, you will chew through the NCA a much faster. That is on top of the excess cycles that you get out of LFP. To rephrase it: If you change the DoD window, you change the range break even in the plot at the end and the areas that LFP is in advantage.

[@CL-gq3no]

@@QuiddelQuaddel, The cycle life estimates for lithium batteries is pretty well known and it's based on the same testing standard in order to allow apples to apples comparison. NCA/NMC chemistries are good for ~3000 cycles if MOST of those cycles are in the 20 - 80% range. LFP cycles can be increased in the same way and may get ~5000 - 6000 cycles if MOST of it's life is spent in the 30 - 90% range. LFP is already being granted the higher cycle life, so downgrading NCA based on a 20 - 80% range when it is already being given a ~1000 cycle life based on a 0 - 100% profile would be downgrading it twice. In practice none of this really matters that much because nobody consistently uses 100% DoD on a daily basis. Most people probably only use 10 to 50% daily and even on long road trips charging is usually in the 10 to 90% range (probably 15% to 88%'ish in reality since some of the battery is off limits). Therefore, in practice even the NCA batteries will likely be good for ~3000+ cycles and the LFP for ~5000+. So for example, lets assume a user that is driving a lot more than average each day and has a standard range Tesla w/ NCA battery. So let's say a relatively high average DoD of 60% would get about 160 miles average for each cycle and about 3000 cycle life. 3000 x 160 miles per cycle is 480k miles. That is 20 years of driving 24k miles per year (twice the US average). The car will most likely be a rust bucket by then and it will have already lasted 2 to 3 times the average life of an ICE car. A long range Tesla would do even better as the average DoD per cycle would be even less. The LFP battery would be even better yet, but by now we are over a million miles which is probably well beyond the lifetime of the owner.

[@QuiddelQuaddel]

@@CL-gq3no Your understanding of cycles does not match what is common in the (cell) industry. The cycle life is defined as the number of full cycles (lower terminal voltage to upper and down again) at vendor specific conditions (C rates, temperature). I have just looked into a CALB NMC 58Ah datasheet because I had that at hand: Room temperature, multiple charge rates (1.2C CC 3.87V, 0.85C CC 4.1V, 0.33C CC 4.3V) and a discharge rate of 1C down to 2.75V. That yields > 2000 cycles for this type. This methodology is pretty common. You will see variations for e.g. more or less capable cells. I work with NCA/NMC, LTO and LFP.

[@CL-gq3no]

@@QuiddelQuaddel, Ok, so you tell me then. How many cycles can we expect for something like Tesla's NCA 21700 chemistry under real world usage? So probably charging to 80 - 90% max most days, ~0.4C discharge rate, 0.1C charge rate most days, and an average DoD of ~30% or less. Graphs I have seen would indicate a lot more than 800 to 1200 cycles under those conditions.

[@kbmblizz1940]

👏 Safety, $, long life make LFP the choice for mild climate with good Supercharger coverage.

[@موسى_7]

I wonder how much better sodium ion would be.

[@codethis2875]

LFP is definitely better for applications that don't require extreme energy density. for something like a truck or gosh even a VTOL, LFP is simply too big\heavy. For the rest, LFP is superior with the exception of extreme cold climates.

[@stal5861]

I bought a new Model3 LFP in 2021, since I drive about 60.000km (37.000 miles) every year. I'm planning on keeping it until the end, hopefully 10 years, 600.000km (370.000 miles). The winters here in northen Europe gets really cold, but driving even in -25C (-13F) the M3 LFP works just great. I think salty roads and therefore corrosion we be the death of this car, not the battery ageing.

[@codethis2875]

Fantastic video, highly informative. there's one thing you missed though. You talked quite extensively about cold weather performance but actually hot climate is very common and usually quite the issue for NCA. LFP can withstand much higher ambient temps also the 3x cycle life helps in hot climates where degradation is more severe. Besides that, excellent stuff

[@dr-k1667]

If I were a science teacher your videos would be required viewing for my class. I think it is so engaging and imagine more would enjoy these topics while in school if it was more "real life". Just imagine this will actual real objects and experiments etc in class for lab. We need to get kids excited about these topics. MATH and SCIENCE are too important too ignore especially in Public Schools.

[@KnowArt]

hero. mindbogglingly good video with important information for everyone even vaguely interested in the EV space

[@FutureAZA]

Fantastic stuff as always. With the LFP patent expiring, I expect to see factories in North America cranking them out at serious volume in the next couple years.

[@موسى_7]

I am very happy that he splits the video into chapters. Means I can skip all the boring stuff which I am not interested in because I'm not an engineer.

[@inspiringstocks]

This vid doesnt only help me with tesla stock investment but also in choosing my next Tesla. Well done Jordan!

[@jooptablet1727]

There it is! Got my snacks and beer ready... let's dive in!

[@dariopalmiero6719]

Thanks as always Jordan. Please never stop 👊🏼

[@timypp2894]

Thank you for delving into the details of the two battery chemistry, especially for me the numbers behind batteries fires - "oh I see why the can burst". Keep up the good work.

[@PennyStonks420]

As a canadian, Im ok with your unholy mixing of units

[@thelimitingfactor]

🔥😂

[@kanoa7749]

Bravo Jordan! Perhaps my favorite video yet! You made the relationship between the chemistry at the molecular level and the real-world performance at the pack level so easy to visualize and understand. Outstanding work.

[@Aleric735]

Seriously the most underrated channel surrounding Tesla. Thank you Jordan!

[@SamAlexanderYouTube]

Fantastic video!!! I appreciate the hard work you put into this ❤️

[@BilalHussain-yd6ck]

I love your work. I was designing a 2 wheeler EV for my our startup and this video really helped me decide the battery.

[@spleck615]

Fantastic details, as always. Thank you for your hard work!

[@kstaxman2]

Your information is absolutely the most comprehensive. Thanks for all your hard work.

[@thelimitingfactor]

My pleasure!

[@pankajarora201]

Magnificent and amazing way of illustration. Really Helpful. More power to you 👍

[@scyberfin]

Again, speechless. Thank you so much for these videos!

[@benjaminnead8557]

Very informative video, Jordan. Really looking forward to the deep video dives into the BYD Blade and Tesla 4680 form factors.

[@Pseudoku_RL]

This was a phenomenal video. I see why NCA has been so appealing over the years due to the superior up front performance and immature LFP cell technology. After seeing this, I can clearly see how NCA can and will still have a niche market, but how LFP will become the new all purpose solution. Worth mentioning, you outline how LFP doesn't show cost savings unless localized. I think this is important to note because 1) it already is localized in China, probably helping drive their margins higher, and 2) it will be localized in Texas and Berlin soon. What a time to be alive

[@kevinl.]

This video made me keep my standard Model 3 order with LFP battery. I was struggling with going with long range NCA version. Thank you.

[@francescodm4772]

Hello , just want to say that your videos are clear and straight to the point . Love those ! Thank you

[@thelimitingfactor]

You're most welcome!

[@jacksonwhite23]

Absolutely incredible video once again. Possibly one of your best!

[@dewiz9596]

Wow. You’re one heluva good explainer, Jordan!

[@douglaswatt1582]

Such a great talk. One of Jordan's best and simply the best treatment of this subject I've ever seen. Makes sense out of so many confusing counterclaims and data.

[@davidhuber6251]

Fantastic video. I like it when the content is just a tad over my skill level and I have to struggle to keep up.

[@ooievaar]

This is one of the best presentations I have seen on KZbin. Good voice, no distracting background “music” and very informative. I know how difficult it is to obtain reliable data, so it is good that you sometimes mention “best guess” As, without recycling worn-out batteries, there will not be enough mineable lithium in the world around 2050, the problem of recycling lithium is becoming more prominent, and probably in favour of LFP because of its longer lifetime. Thanks for your good work.

[@nogoogltalk]

What I like most is this reggae feel good intro. Well cut and welcoming as the content.

[@KK-up3pq]

Cool to see the @nextmove reference here

[@steveperreira5850]

Superb analysis, comparison, and contrast. Thank you!

[@roberthotaling4303]

Always learn something from your videos. Thx for making it easy to understand.

[@frederickstirnkorb3094]

Awesome video! Answered a ton of questions about LFP chemistry.

[@Bryan46162]

Thanks! Informative as usual!

[@davidmusser1285]

Great info as always!

[@scottgarner2701]

Another fantastic video, Jordan!

[@felipecogo4671]

Great video, as always! watching from Brazil.

[@carsonc1272]

Holy crap this video is gold. Excellent job! My opinions have been flipped.

[@andrewcyvas6327]

Tis is great information also helps understand cold weather issues an WHY a scheduled departure time makes such a big difference in cold weather.

[@Andrew-CZ]

Excellent video and summary!

[@tommckinney1489]

Not only *can* you charge LFP to 100%, you *should* charge to 100%. This is because the voltage difference between fully charged and fully discharged is small and sometimes the BMS has a hard time distinguishing between the two. The effect would be that your range will drop precipitously when the battery state of charge gets low.

[@elektrotehnik94]

That would be another deep dive video idea; going into details about how often LFP charging to 100% is needed, why charging LFP to 100% & what happens inside the battery and BMS (battery management system) that necessitates 100% charging

[@SxWerks]

Jordan is the GoTo Source to understand the State of the Art battery design and production. Great work.

[@navderek]

Amazing video. Great presentation. Thank you!

[@bowdieb7931]

Great video, thank you. I’m brand new to the EV world. Just bought a model 3 with LFP last weekend. At this point, I’m very happy about my decision to go with LFP. I live in a warm climate so it made my decision a little easier. Very interested to see how well it performs over time.

[@Missingtailpipesby]

That's amazing fantastic one. Just waiting for the revolutionary most promising BYD's blade battery episode.

[@Missingtailpipesby]

@@admin8187 Yes already done. Thank you Sir.

[@FiDelZarlar]

Thank you Jordan! Fantastic explanation! 🙏

[@eamonstack4139]

Excellent video - you are an amazing teacher. Huge thanks

[@xltian4368]

Big Love for your work, I just become a huge fan of you.

[@shanrafnezden7958]

Fantastic video mate!

[@leslarson2642]

Thanks! Best chemistry video I have seen. Had been hearing about the safety of LFP vs NCA but this is the first time I have seen details. Personally, I would prefer a Hyundai or Subaru at this time. I am currently a Crosstrek owner and my litmus test is being able to carry an 8 ft ladder inside the cabin. Thanks for the great info.

[@markedwards4879]

Once again an excellent video. Thankyou.

[@jamesowens7176]

Excellent video as always! You create the best technical content on batteries by far that I've seen! You mention cost not being any better due to shipping LFP from China. I suspect that will change by 2025 or so, since the patents are expiring next year and Lithium Werks is already planning large-scale LFP cathode production Stateside. I think it's only a matter of time before localized production brings the costs down substantially.

[@deeplato5647]

Great Segment

[@tylertrottier2902]

Excellent as always. With lithium demand growing… an interesting topic could be the amount of lithium that goes into each chemistry. From LFP to LMNO and everything in between. Thanks. Love your channel!

[@thelimitingfactor]

Same amount in each chemistry. Everything in the battery cell is dead weight except for the lithium.

[@deniscloutier383]

Very high quality video, thanks !

[@tommckinney1489]

Thanks for the excellent explanation, Jordan. Bookmarked for future reference. You briefly touched on using LFP in 4680 cells. IMO this would mean Tesla could offer an SR+ and LR with LFP, and maybe a "super LR" with NCA. Exciting times!

[@LawpickingLocksmith]

Huge thanks! Very well presented.

[@bigadventure3797]

On point as Always!

[@paulcovacich5274]

As always, many thanks Jordan. I like to factor in the effect on range of other factors... NCA will degrade faster if charged outside of the 15%-80% range, whereas LFP can happily go to 100%, but I like to factor in a reserve at the bottom of the LFP battery of 15%, mostly for the less predictable point at which the car will percieve the remaining capacity to be low (because of that flat voltage curve). So the practical capacity of NCA gets 20% off the top, and 15% off the bottom (so only 65% of the total charge being available if you want to look after the battery), whereas the LFP only gets trimmed to 85% of available capacity. Once these factors get applied the LFP SR+ has way more 'practical range' than the M3 NCA, and is almost of similar 'practical' range to the LR M3.

[@davidelliott5843]

I used an LFP engine start battery on a 1200cc BMW boxer twin. It replaced a serviceable (very heavy duty) lead acid because I could not use a conditioning charger while the bike was stored. Lead acid hates disuse. LFP doesn’t care. The 4 AH LFP started that big twin better than the 14 AH lead acid ever had. It was also cheaper than s replacement lead acid. I tried it on the car which has electric power steering (high power demand) and it worked just fine. I was not brave enough to leave the LFP on the car but believe it would have been just fine. The car is fitted with a 50 AH lead acid.

[@jamesallen5850]

Another excellent video. I'm starting to think I'd rather have an lfp standard range as over time it will lose less range. I would like an extra 20miles though. 270 miles just seems like a lot more than 250.

[@MarkXHolland]

Can you not use more of the LFP battery though? 100% as opposed to 90% for NCA? This levels up the range somewhat.

[@capt4in1]

I have an LFP model 3 and I’ve never had a problem (but that’s mainly because superchargers are so widespread where I live). Honestly just leave the battery display in % and you never really need to worry. For daily driving, it’s a complete non-issue.

[@eaglesofmai]

amazing explainations! eye opening to me ! thanks a lot!

[@manni1998]

This Video convinced me to buy a Tesla Model 3 SR+ in 09/2021. I was impressed by the LFP battery, how it works and especially his predicted long life.

[@thelimitingfactor]

🙌🏼🤠

[@cbromley562]

Excellent video.

[@frax7696]

Really great Work - thank you so much!

[@legrandblond8011]

Great video Jordan! I work in the LFP industry and I couldn't have been able to explain better ! LFP is there to stay because of the cheap price of raw materials used to synthetize it and the high cyclability of batteries made with that cathode material. Now, just to give you a slight insight: there are now some LFP manufacturers around the world that can synthetize LFP from steel mill wastes? On the long run, it might make it even cheaper than it was expected.

[@kwatt-engineer796]

you deserve an award for this video.

[@paulpedersen1329]

Very helpful analysis. Thanks!

[@williamwoo866]

jordan you really pack a lot of information in such a short time. I hope I can get LFP on my roadster for less problems. Hopefully I get a choice

[@jensemilhansen1602]

really good video - thanks

[@jbrownson]

amazing work, thanks

[@diyEVguy]

Excellent video. Thank you!

[@GoCoyote]

My favorite video drop on youtube!

[@davidelliott5843]

Tyres might see a little more wear on an LFP car. Brakes wear is likely to be the same, because the additional momentum gets fed back under regenerative braking

[@juhopeltola3993]

Thank you of making the video. I got 1.5kwh lfp batterys in my bike now and Over 2000w. Best thing is that power won't drop when charge gets low. Gas mopeds don't have any chance to keep up whit my bike.

[@theonebucketlist]

Great video!

[@petehall1900]

Awesome battery chemistry video

[@seawolf3565]

Dude! Much 🔥. ✊

[@MrFoxRobert]

Thank you!

[@shivkuma100]

excellent summary

[@rogerfroud300]

That's a fascinating and really useful deep dive. Could you look into the impact of using LIPO chemistry in the 4680 tabless cell? Presumably the charging rate would be greatly improved by the lower internal resistance and even spreading of the charge throughout the cell. It would also be interesting to hear your take on the range and life issues of using the different chemistries in the Tesla Semi.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Lipo isn't a chemistry, it just means using gel instead of liquid electrolyte. Good questions.

[@monsieurb90]

Thanks for the video! Very happy with my Tesla Model 3 SR+ LFP here. :) By the way: Tesla increased the charge rate at the end - at 90% I get now still 52kW - that is much better than at the chart shown at 26:45 . LFP is charging really fast!

[@thelimitingfactor]

Niiiice!

[@jambay4785]

thanks for vid, finally got an idea of why not to deplete your battery (you now own a very expensive brick). Still not sure about avoiding max charge, technically, know why not to do generally. 20% to 80% seems like a good working range to me.

[@ronbevins5380]

Very informative. Thanks.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Thanks for watching!

[@MaximeTrepreau]

awesome, thanks a lot

[@ApteraEV2024]

Thank you Professor L. Factor)))

[@trutha3306]

Great Video

[@casperjensen4156]

Thank you for a very interesting and educational video;-) As allways👍