More Zinc = More Wear? The REAL Truth About ZDDP Additives

[@themotoroilgeek]

For information about break-in oil for flat tappet cams, check out this video: Is It Just High Zinc (ZDDP), Or Is There More To It? kzbin.info/www/bejne/bqioZYRjeqqHj7M For information about oil for flat tappet cams after break-in, check out this video: Is The NEW Valvoline VR1 A Good Oil? A Certified Lubrication Specialist Reveals The Results! kzbin.info/www/bejne/jWWbn6ydoJagosU Here's the link to the full video from Lubrizol. It's one of my favorites, and Doug Jayne from Lubrizol (in the video) is one of my mentors from the Joe Gibbs oil program. kzbin.info/www/bejne/aV6so5h6lKxsapYsi=LF6vRW8d5QOEEGa2

[@twinscrolled]

Can you please do a video on how to choose the best performance oil for direct injected and turbocharged 6-8 cylinder engines.

[@stevefortune4315]

I have heard of good products that swell old seals and work well. If a guy knows the problem and uses the appropriate product im all for that. I don't support throwing in a product when there is no problem.

[@BansheeZR1]

Great video. Does the same kind of thinking also apply to MoS2 (Molybdenum disulfide) which claim to reduce both friction and wear? Is more actually better and what if it is combined with a higher level of ZDDP? This might be an idea for a future video.

[@321CatboxWA]

You have total disregard as to why zink is important . Camshaft and lifter wear not piston , ring and cylinder wear.

[@themotoroilgeek]

@@BansheeZR1 ZDDP and MoDTC (Molybdenum) have great synergy. Equal parts have been proven to be very effective. I show that in the video on the 0W-8 in my daughter's Toyota.

[@jppagetoo]

Why do I find this channel to be fascinating? I am not a racer. I don't fix cars, I don't build engines. But I love learning this stuff.

[@patrickm.8425]

Well then, you are better equipped for caring for your automobiles then! 👍

[@CHEECHMUN]

At least you are learning new things and not watching baseball & hockey!! My friend knows hardly anything, because he only watches sport every night.

[@Just1Spark]

Learn new things while its still legal to do so.

[@LTVoyager]

Learning is its own reward.

[@Trump1776]

Cos you are ignorant!

[@JimmyMakingitwork]

When you think you know a lot it's only because you have no idea what you don't know yet. Subbed.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Absolutely. Always learning...

[@seatime674]

That's why I like coming here because everybody knows everything which makes it easy..

[@aaronschocke2147]

The very best feeling in the world is realizing just how much you don't know, followed by a revalation to a vast understanding of WHAT you don't know! It's like getting a rubric on what to learn next!

[@coltonkruse2313]

Wow are you guys doing okay? People on the internet who admit to not knowing everything?? This might be a first for me. Well done y'all are good people in my book.

[@CPthetooladdict]

Jimmy this is why experience and knowledge always trumps subscriber count and popularity contest lo.

[@jatoav8or]

This channel you’ve created is sorely overdue. The overwhelming vast majority of lubrication videos & websites are based on opinions and anecdotal evidence. Hard data on the science of lubricants is a welcome addition. Unlike ZDDP, too much information will never be a problem so bring it on!

[@thomas316]

That Australian guy who rubs the Lubrication Explained channel is good as well although he also discusses some industrial stuff.

[@cyclesaviorn2700]

The zzp additive isnt for the rings and cylinder bores, its for the cam lobes and flat tappet lifters

[@BobVan]

@@cyclesaviorn2700I thought the same thing but if it wears out other parts excessively that might be important to know. Cam lifter swap is easier to do than completely remachining cylinders.

[@cyclesaviorn2700]

@@BobVan amen to that

[@rhkips]

Man, I cannot wrap my head around the disconnect between friction and wear... Subscribed! Must learn more!

[@TonicofSonic]

As most industry, much of this is political. He formulates oil, so he must play by the rules book laid out by the oil cartel. Take it all with a grain of salt and try to be aware of what makes people rich vs what saves you money.

[@bu5hm4nn]

Wear means it protects the original metal surface. Friction because the new Zink surface is more sticky than the original metal surface.

[@cuzz63]

Think about this....car is doing a burnout...this means there isnt enough friction for tires to grip and the tires are wearing as they spin. Now the tires get a grip because there is more friction and they dont spin so less tire wear.

[@rhkips]

@@TonicofSonic LOL

[@chillznax]

I think heat is the one variable not being discussed. Heat not just from friction but also combustion. As for friction versus wear, Imagine a stick of butter in each hand. Rub them together, they’ll start to deform easily. Very low friction but the material (butter) doesn’t take much to deform. Different metals are going to deform at different rates especially at different temps. Cold butter deforms much slower than table top butter where almost no friction will still deform room temp butter. Maybe aluminum against aluminum deforms super easy with very little friction. Also makes me think of surface hardness. Trying to scratch a diamond vs some other material. Seems counterintuitive that Diamond can withstand the scratch yet it’s still brittle. So in that instance friction against the Diamond is super high yet doesn’t deform it yet it’s still brittle.

[@HDisNotSmart]

Yes please. More science about metallurgy and chemistry. I love your explanations about how this stuff works. You have the skill of explaining complicated concepts without jargon.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thanks!

[@romankapitan3961]

This is The best kind of YT educational videos. Total applause!!!

[@MuscleCarSolutions]

Glad you made this video Lake. I hope it helps folks avoid mistakes with playing chemist with their oil and additives.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thanks! More to come!

[@volvo09]

14:06 that piston ring test and the wear chart is awesome! What a high tech test, it's amazing what we are capable of with modern tech.

[@themotoroilgeek]

That's just scratching the surface of what the folks at SwRI can do...

[@Doctorevil666]

What about boron as a additive I'd be into that

[@xXturbo86Xx]

And depressing to think that manufacturers know all this but decide to put cheap TRASH in our engines, just to make a buck more.

[@stuckinmygarage6220]

Mr. Lake, I do not know why u do not have more subscribers. I appreciate your work, words, and delivery. Kudos. 👍

[@themotoroilgeek]

I appreciate that!

[@AdelJeffreyJeffreysAuto]

Man i appreciate you shedding light on many aspects of motor oils that an average Joe dont know.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thanks!

[@fascistpedant758]

Love your videos. Don't be afraid to get too scientific. Even if people don't get it right away, it'll sink in eventually. That's how you learn.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thank you!

[@jamesrindley6215]

What I've learned from this confirms my own experience that the best way to look after an engine is simply buy top grade oil and change it regularly. Oh, and don't thrash it when it's cold but that should be obvious. Trying to concoct your own blend by assuming certain additives will help is a waste of time at best and detrimental at worst. I learned this from adding a molydenum additive to a gearbox and finding out that it messed with the syncromesh.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Right on!

[@starseeddeluxe]

If you're dealing with motorcycles, you can CLEARLY observe major differences between different oils. Not "opinion." But you can actually HEAR, AND FEEL the difference. You will observe notchy, difficulty shifting, where the clutch won't disengage properly, if you're using a bad oil. This is hard to ignore, because you won't be able to put the bike in neutral without a lot of finessing. You'll also immediately hear loud ticking when the engine oil gets hot. Switching to a better quality oil, you notice the gear box shifts very easily, and the camshaft lifter noise completely vanishes. I also noticed an undeniable increase in high RPM horsepower, between 3 types of oil. Read about Motul 7100 oil. Don't buy it, but go read about it, and you'll see that every person reports the same dramatic changes that occur. When using Amsoil motorcycle oil, I noticed that when the engine got hot, it would tick loudly. With Mobil-1 4T oil, I noticed that it had hard notchy shifting, and the engine had a lot of pumping losses and struggled at high RPM. On a car, it's probably a lot more difficult to notice improvements between brands of oil.

[@n.mcneil4066]

@@starseeddeluxe Motorcycle oil have less friction reducing additives for bikes in which the motor oil is shared with the engine, transmission & clutch. These additives can cause the clutch to slip.

[@earlbrown]

@@n.mcneil4066 Wet clutches like to start slipping when you change oils on them too. I've personally seen it many times on my racebikes and streetbikes. Whatever oil they see when they get put into service is what they like. Back in my day of buying used street bikes and putting them on the track, it became a requirement for me to just put in a new clutch pack when I did the initial oil change to Yamalube4. The old ones could have plenty of meat left, but slip like crazy during real world use.

[@joeala762]

As a machinist, I would be very interested in that video about the surface finishes, metallurgy and how motor oil works with those variables.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Noted!

[@owenhill-vf7ko]

As a 3rd generation mechanic and engine builder. The RZ and PT of the machined components matters so much. It will also change your thinking of how things actually work:)

[@johngregory4801]

I would LOVE to see a video (or more) contrasting friction, wear and metallurgy!!! I'm no racer, just a guy who wants to build a bit more power into my engine while making it as reliable and durable as possible.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Noted

[@BC08]

I definitely would like a video digging into metallurgy and surface roughness and motor oil. I’ve been building engines forever with Total Seal C-33 stainless rings and final hone with 280 grit stone and it’s always worked great; but have would love some hard data

[@themotoroilgeek]

Check out the Total Seal channel for some deep dives on surface roughness.

[@TheLonesometoad]

EXTREMELY informative video, Lake! Thank you so very much for sharing your expertise with us. Being a hot rodder-mechanic and engine builder for 50+ years I thought I knew a lot. But this knew technology and info on oils is amazing! Keep up the good work Lake, this stuff is fascinating!

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thanks!

[@johnmanning8982]

I’ve come to really enjoy the information you present concerning the science involved in oil use in engines. Thank you. One thing would be very useful to me and probably others, too, is I need more back ground on what exactly I’m seeing in those terrific graphs and 3D diagrams you’re presenting. Maybe more arrows pointing at what’s being discussed? The information is coming fast and furious and I often just don’t have enough background knowledge to keep up with what is being said and presented. But trust me, I’m going to just keep watching and trying to understand a little more deeply. Just love this stuff!

[@themotoroilgeek]

Noted!

[@OldTooly]

Outstanding information. I'm an old fart and have an enormous amount of experience with over the counter oils in various cars. But I learned more in this video than 60 years olf actual experience. Now to apply this information...

[@TurboDog73TX]

I definitely want see an in depth video on the metallurgy and how the oil interacts with it!

[@troxistmajin8740]

I'm glad I saw this video. I was shopping around for ZDDP additives. Now I guess I can save money and save my engine.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Right on!

[@patrickquirk-qz8ri]

Lucas fuel additive , works for me.

[@real_motormouthvideo]

Another great and informative video Lake, its easy to get lost in the science and even easier to want a simple answer. Thanks for the education & we look forward to having you back on our show.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thanks guys!

[@cr250rrcflyby3]

Thanks!

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thank you!

[@boomersuperbike3787]

paint scraping metaphor is SPOT ON. thank you

[@themotoroilgeek]

Glad you think so!

[@The_1982_EXPert]

I know very little about oils in comparison to The Motor Oil Geek but I never recommended zinc additives because that metaphor is exactly how I always envisioned the issue even before hearing him say it, with enough zinc it clings to itself and becomes easier to tear itself from what it was originally attached to. We experience this constantly in the real world but never notice, adhiesive tape for instance is the same way, in single layers it can come off a roll quite controllable but when the roll has been cut a few layers deep you'll have a really hard time peeling them off one by one and instead will typically peel the whole cluster off at once. Same story with solder, toilet paper, wood glue, metal & plastic welding/brazing, oxidation, lint rollers, or nearly any bond out there

[@dorhocyn3]

I think my brain has to stay on Project Farm level most of the time….

[@KimiWallrus]

I talked to a guy who thought Richard Holdner, The Project Farm guy and Lake were all the same dude.😊 I see the premise because we live in a world with not enough data and all work directly from thereof. Sadly it isn't sexy enough to get the exposure that's deserved.

[@eflanagan1921]

@@KimiWallrus they're separate ?

[@jayunitcooper]

@@KimiWallrus ummm project farms name is Todd Osgood? Google it

[@outwiththem]

@@eflanagan1921 TWINS. SEPARATED AT BIRTH. SMART MEN..

[@brianmatthews9697]

I'm with you, this guy is too smart for me. Matter of fact both of them are.

[@spankyham9607]

Thanks for answering that question! I like knowing why something works or doesn't work more than "just do it" approach.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Right on!

[@mcm3a812]

Lake, you educate so many people with your channel. This channel is truly one of the best ever. Thank you so much.

[@hotrodswoodshed7405]

ABSOLUTELY LOVE this channel.. deep science..solid info. I love your quote.. "i love the science of oil... i hate the marketing of oil" thx for being SOO honest. Also Thx lake for ACTUALLY responding and reciprocate communications.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Just wait for the next one...

[@hotrodswoodshed7405]

@@themotoroilgeek concerning protecting gearboxes... i.e. 9inch... or a old school strait transmission, what's your feeling about additives like lucas stabilizer or stp.??? A video maybe?

[@themotoroilgeek]

@@hotrodswoodshed7405the next video will touch on that!

[@ibrahimqari9189]

I learned marketing in college Marketing seems to me based on deception They teach how to sell stuff whether it is good or bad

[@andyharman3022]

Very interesting stuff, Lake! I had some success fortifying an oil with the Redline Additive in my Cummins 5.9. I used to have it in commercial service and had used oil analyses done at every oil change. I had been using Rotella T6 for many years and noticed the Phosphorous content had been decreased in the change from CJ4 to CK4 and saw an increase in Iron wear rate of about 37% when the Phos decreased from 1150 to 950 ppm. I added enough Redline to get the Phos up to 1200 ppm, and the wear rate came down to what it was on the CJ4 formulation.

[@justinfargas2367]

Thank you Lake. Love and prayers from Australia to you and your Family.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thanks mate!

[@TheSprinterVan]

Thank you for another phenomenal video!!!! And the answer is yes I would love to see you make a video about anything you think would be interesting.

[@themotoroilgeek]

You got it!

[@patbeattie1989]

I would love to see a video on metallurgy vs. oil type! I love the nitty gritty stuff!

[@themotoroilgeek]

Great suggestion!

[@scottr4086]

This is an excellent suggestion and would love to see this too

[@johnwehunt4305]

i sure am glad you did this episode. saved me from future failure.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thanks!

[@melclark1066]

Fascinating. Raises more questions than it answers, - that's not a complaint. Excellent program.🙂🙂

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thanks!

[@Gleone58]

The move from API SN to SP has also helped greatly. The reduction of calcium but ZDDP staying at 800 has seen improved cam wear characteristics. I don’t know where some old timers get the idea zinc was removed in the 90s but it never left. It was just reverted to the early 60s level

[@hmdwn]

then why were new flat tappet lifter cams failing in the mid 90's? It happened to me foe my BBC Jet Boat engine. I even removed the inner valve spring for break-in and the cam lobe went flat within a few minutes.

[@Gleone58]

@@hmdwn60s and 70s oil was the very first detergent oils and not much detergent was used. Late 70s-80s seen an increase in ZDDP up to about the 1600ppm limit area but with it followed increases in calcium and other dispersants which do act against ZDDP. In the mid 90s ZDDP was “reduced” not removed to about the 600-800 limits with a casual middle ground of 700 in the middle 2000s but now Xw40 grades have an upper of 1200 in diesels but heavy SN levels of calcium. But with the drop in the 90s to 600ish WITHOUT the reduction of detergent caused some havoc. Many resorting to break in oils for full time use or blending their own oil using a non detergent with a ZDDP pack which is not recommended. 800ppm after break in with the new non-calcium based detergents is perfectly fine to use on flat tappets in my opinion. Now race engines with steep cam ramp and immense spring pressures nothing will help that. Many don’t understand that with higher spring pressures even roller needle bearings fail in roller applications and must be changed often. It’s not a put one in you’re done deal.

[@Gleone58]

@@hmdwn reduction in ZDDP but no reduction in calcium would do that

[@Gleone58]

@@hmdwn also possible mismatch of taper on the lobe to lifter, failure to rotate is an instant killer.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Yes! You are spot on. The reduction in Calcium has made a big and positive difference!

[@ScannerDanner]

Here because of a flat tappet cam and lifter failure after 4000 miles 😊 The new engine will be full roller. But I'm researching what oil to run, so thanks for this video!

[@RJLM330]

Perfect I have a VW BUG and everyone is saying that you should go with high ZDP for cam wear. They don’t mention any other components of the oil/engine. Thanks for the education

[@andrewlewis4253]

I run my PD engines on 505.00. They spec 505.01 which has more zinc but I've seen enough worn camshafts to not use .01. Now I know why. The point loading on the cam bearings is pretty high due to the unit injectors putting large amounts of force on them. I've seen failed bearings using .01 spec oil. I've also seen accelerated wear on cam lobes both valve and injector using .01 spec oil. Toss that stuff in the trash and use 505.00.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Stay tuned for more!

[@tonydoggett7627]

Don’t forget a flat 4 vw air cooled engine cam lobe does twice the work of a conventional engine!

[@dennisj3879]

It's all about the data! I feel like I just went back in time sitting through an engineering school lecture - great stuff. Would be great to see a deep dive into Moly and how it works in the mix. Now that I have done my first oil analysis for my 2 vehicles (thanks you SpeedDiagnostix) I'm much more interested in the formulations of different options and exactly whats in the oil I've been using. We'll see how the wear metals analysis goes over time with my 2 very different "environments"... 25K mile 3.6 NA pentastar and 100k mile LQ4.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Right on! The impact of Moly will be a future video!

[@antibrevity]

Excellent video. I would summarize this as: Follow manufacturer's guidelines for oil formulation and change frequency unless you have used oil analyses suggesting otherwise. You cannot predict what different oil chemistries will do in your engine. The only way to know is to to send used oil samples to qualified labs and make changes based on those results. If you hear people telling you to use particular formulations, brands, or additives without seeing your oil sample results, ignore them. Customizing your oil formulation could easily destroy your engine in a short period of time. Do not fall for marketing tricks, including dyeing the oil to meet a brand identity. Color has *nothing* to do with performance and its an insult to your intelligence for marketing departments to suggest otherwise.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Right on! Thanks for the excellent summary!

[@TassieLorenzo]

"Do not fall for marketing tricks, including dyeing the oil to meet a brand identity" Sure, but don't VW demand the dye in VW 508 specification oils just so 508-spec oil can be identified compared to other oils? [It would be nice if coolant colours were in any way standardised to help identify one type of coolant from another, as opposed to essentially arbitrary, but that's a whole 'nother topic!]

[@monte99cm]

​@@themotoroilgeek but wait, in other videos you've stated not to follow manufacturers guidelines. That oil changes should occur more often. Even doing a break in oil change prior the manufacturers recommendation. Let's be honest the manufacturers have one goal in mind and that's to sell new cars. 10k mile oil changes are in no way good for an engine but they are good to give the illusion of low cost of ownership of a new car while simultaneously causing reliability of a used car to decrease. Just want to confirm do you recommend what the manufacturers recommend or something else?

[@themotoroilgeek]

@@monte99cm It just seems like a contradiction, but look at the last part of his summary - "unless you have oil analysis data that says otherwise". When I said don't follow the OEM guidelines on the first oil change, I backed that up with used oil analysis data that said otherwise. When it comes to the viscosity and spec of the oil, start with the OEM recommendation, and then adjust based on data.

[@brianwixon]

Fantastic video, well done. You are teaching a small army of gearheads why they need to pay more attention to the oil they use, and how to interpret the test results. Thanks from this gearhead!

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thank you!

[@dorianleclair7390]

Yeah I would love a video on friction and wear

[@a.c.e.7568]

Lake, I just use a quality oil in my vehicles using the spec listed in my Owners Manual. Fifty years later, I never had an oil related issue in cars, motorcycles or aircraft.

[@danfecke]

Define quality oil please

[@a.c.e.7568]

@@danfecke Mobil, Castrol, Valvoline...major brand oils. I happen to use only Mobil since 1999.

[@themotoroilgeek]

That's the right way to do it.

[@chuckrosekowieski981]

There used to be a real difference between oils of Mineral origin. California crude vs Pennsylvania crude. California crude, say Trop-Artic is more napthenic. It penetrates better, swelled gaskets better and was naturally detergent. Maybe. Penzoil or something like it was paraffinic. Better lubricity and good ole pounds per square inch. Now, lubrication oil is from wherever and luckily we have standards. Brand choice is less important.

[@themotoroilgeek]

@@chuckrosekowieski981 Spot on!!

[@golf25radioman]

I also find this channel fascinating. In my past I have raced cars, fixed cars, built engines. Now I just want my new (to me) truck to last the longest. I have an oil change coming up, soooo... I also am still a car guy, have some project cars, but have been out of the "scene" for a few years. Knowledge is power. As he said about the marketing about oil...be careful with your selection of oils.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thanks!

[@1972davidt]

Great video and informative info. So my son drives a 2001 Cadillac deville with the 32v North Star engine. We bought it in late 2021 with 140k miles for $2500 from a lady that inherited it from her grandmother. I changed the oil and transmission fluid. It has always ran great but it was burning oil like crazy. A quart every 600 miles. I changed from 5w-30 to rotella 15w-40. Still the same results. So after a year I said what the heck, I put 2 quarts of Lucas HD oil stabilizer and 5 quarts of 5w-30. For the past month, the oil level has been stable! Sometimes additives do help. It’s got 158k miles on it now and it’s running great!

[@Fix_It_Again_Tony]

I think you should do a leak down test. Sounds like there is significant wear inside this engine. When Lake says additives don't help, he is assuming the engine is mechanically in good condition.

[@averyalexander2303]

Very interesting as always, thanks for sharing! I have an idea for what I think would be a great video- a discussion of used oil analysis, its benefits and limitations, and where and why it is or isn't useful. For example, I have always read and believed that UOAs aren't necessarily a reliable way to measure wear for things like comparing brands of oils because many of the larger wear particles get caught in the filter and/or are too large to show up in the results because of the way particles are measured.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thanks for the suggestion!

[@Dereck-k2l]

I personally know how the difference between friction and wear can vary, However..... With your mind, and ability to explain complex concepts, in a very easy to digest way, you do an exceptional job sir. I also got a really good crash course in understanding the physical and chemical properties in the additives of each grade. 4 thumbs up sir, from a 23 year master tech. Such great content!!!!

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thank you sir! That means lot.

[@stevefortune4315]

Great video. I used to be a mechanic and I tried to explain how after market oil additive products are a gimmick. Like (power up) and (mao) Your video would make some people understand i think. I have a 5.3 gm with 530,000 km on it. Early oil changes is the key.

[@CrimeVid]

I put an oil additive in my old van because it dripped a lot, it stopped it, the thing was still running fine ten years later, after several oil changes with the same additive, van pox got her in the end.

[@stevefortune4315]

If you are treating a problem with a additive made to treat that problem i have no problem. When shops sell a customer a product claiming they need it just because... I don't agree with. Thats snake oil sales. There are no bad oils off the shelf anymore. Anyone can check products outvon there phone and see if a product is bad and the bad won't be forsale long.

[@paulcondie2520]

I'm a true believer that getting all the break in metal out of engine and transmission is key to a long life, even diffs and transfer cases! And yes I still do 3000-3500 mile oil changes with full synthetic!!! Oil is cheap compared to failures, down time, money and inconvenience!!! I daily to work a 1993 Ford ranger with 508,000+ miles and still rocking the original engine transmission and rear end! 2.3l 5sp 2wd

[@joshuataylor4256]

Every video I watch I learn and then have more questions and keep going to the next video to learn and have more questions… LoVe it!! Thank you Lake

[@TheBlibo]

Hi From the uk I have done work for lubrizol over here in the past a great bunch of guys all very knowledgeable. I would not recommend buying any over the counter fuel or lube additive as most haven't been tested in a proper lab running crc cec or Jaso tests. It's best to go and buy the stuff that is recommended buy the manufacturers and change twice as often as recommended in my opinion Keep up.the good work

[@themotoroilgeek]

Right on! The Lubrizol lab in Derby is amazing!

[@pjb2476]

Fantastic breakdown. Lost me a bit on the chart walk-through. Thanks for putting this together!

[@themotoroilgeek]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@buckw65]

Really appreciate the information. An even deeper dive would be super interesting

[@marklawrence2539]

I have just subscribed to your channel, its the first time I have found sensible analysis on lubricity subjectivity. For one would be most interested on the notion of how metalurgy affects the requirements of oil formulation. I spent my early years engrossed in classic motorcycle engines, then progressed into tuning "modern" Japanese motorcycle engines, with considerable sucess, which several of your videos have confirmed as to why my choices had the right outcomes . . . now, grtting back into things for personal interest, as i approach retirement age, I would massively appreciate an explanation of what to look for in modern oils, applied to classic engines. Keep up the good work, your analysis is awesome!

[@Busa0069]

You should do a motorcycle oil vs diesel oil comparison. This is an age old argument in the motorcycle community many run diesel oil in their bikes and be nice to get your take on the controversy.

[@billythomas4527]

Second that

[@dansshop]

I love this channel. I *used* to have lots of opinions about this stuff based on stuff I'd like to believe. Now, I feel I'm quite confident about that fact that I don't know much and it's all terribly complex and interesting. Most of what I do know about oil, and additives I've learned here ~ thank you.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Wow, thank you!

[@motorcoachtech7615]

Lake, an excellent video as usual. I love how technical it is.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thank you! I indulged myself on this one, LOL.

[@JoezSki]

I learned more in this video than everything I learned this year combined. I love your videos

[@Rev1Kev]

Great episode Lake!! How about other oil additives, such as friction modifiers, such as Nano Borate modifiers such as Archoil AR9100???

[@themotoroilgeek]

Stay tuned!

[@MichaelCzajka]

Low wear and low friction often go together... but not always. That was a clear explanation of how wear and friction do not always go together. A lot of pressure additives cause corrosion... even if they pass the Falex pressure test. Unless you do an oil analysis it's really hard to figure out which oil, what lubricant or which additive works. The one that gives you the least wear while creating the least friction is ideal. :-)

[@Dirtdude77]

The people who care about zinc aren't doing it for piston wear 😅...... They want the zddp for flat tappet camshaft lobes 👌

[@jeremyjohnson-f4t]

I'm pretty sure Lake Speed Jr., the guy who created Joe Gibbs Driven Racing oil, is aware of that bud. It's also in the thumbnail

[@kowpow2259]

He talks about the flat tappet needs early in the video.

[@ktkace]

Bingo.

[@ktkace]

@@kowpow2259 where? only camshaft is mentioned, could be roller... m1 racing 0W50 @ 1650PPM of zddp isnt joking. 1200PPM is weaksauce but workable , you want robust , you go above to 1650PPM but not to 3600PPM. ZDDP above 1800ppm seems to cause corrosive wear for ALL engines. ZDDP below 1200PPM doesnt provide enuff protection for flat tappet systems...

[@patrickm.8425]

It's all friction and wear, and he talks plenty about flat tappets in this video! I'm thinking you didn't even watch it! smh

[@rustypipes12]

You mentioned fuel addatives can be helpful in a previous video. How about a comparison. I use Mobil gas which I believe is a top tier. What are the additives in different fuels and how do they react with the oil?

[@KimiWallrus]

We definitely need more info on how oil works in a new race engine vs. a worn race engine with polished cylinders and typical wear found just before rebuild vs. oil in the 265,000 mile V-8 engine pulling the rig.

[@DaveMcLain]

Very good content Lake and you used my photos of the parts that were damaged by corrosive wear. Thanks for all of the information.

[@dave29339]

Wow, crazy good information. It sounds like each engine (or at least engine type or manufacturer) needs its own custom oil!

[@atomikrobot300099]

Thank you for making this video when I asked about it way back! Appreciate you testing these additives!

[@johnstipic1628]

Thank you for being so thorough with your presentations. Very informative!! A request; Please consider explaining how one would seek out the best oil properties for a Direct Injection Turbo Gas Engine. What particular property/properties should we consider to keep the necessary evaporation to a minimal to prevent carbon build up on the intake valves. If you need a particular engine, I'm needing to know for a 2016-2023 Mazda CX-9 2.5 Turbo which also comes in other Mazda products. Thank you again

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thanks for the suggestion!

[@ptwccrider]

Back in 2008, i was advised to add the zddp to the VR1. Not saying its the right thing to do. The Flat tappet HYD cam and lifters didn't wear out prematurely. Yet , i did notice , as did Crower , that it discolored the lifters about 1/2 inch up from the lifter face. Mr Crower was concerned about that discoloration. Thinking it was from High Heat. Near the bottom of the lifters were discolored like they were out of a 100,000 mile plus engine. The reason why i pulled the lifters was due too too much open / seat spring pressure. Causing the oil metering plates to FAIL. FYI. Great Video Lake!! I run DRIVEN HR1 with my Solid Flat tappet. No additional additives. 10,000 plus miles so far. Big Block with CJ Valves...Correct spring pressure is very important.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thanks for sharing!

[@chadwallace3598]

Next let’s find out if more moly and boron help or not and at what combinations.

[@drivewayhero]

It's reasonable to assume that this research has been done already and today's oil is formulated accordingly and only gets better as tech improves. The bottle you buy at walmart represents the best of today's tech

[@averyalexander2303]

@@drivewayhero The research has definitely been done, but it would be incredibly naive to assume that oils are formulated to make our engines last as long as possible before all else. When formulating oils, wear protection is only one consideration. Fuel efficiency, emissions, cost, cleanliness, compatibility, etc have to be considered too.

[@drivewayhero]

@@averyalexander2303 if you change your oil every 3k with a high-end synthtic oil from a reputable brand such as pennzoil, castrol, mobil1, valvoline, your engine will do just fine without worrying about the precise part per million of boron

[@nerd1000ify]

​@@averyalexander2303corrosion protection is also critical, in particular wear of the rings and the cylinder wall at the top of the liner is partly a chemical corrosion process. Partial oxidation of fuel in the crevice volume creates acids that eat away the metal in that area. One other perk of ZDDP is that it's kinda ok as an anti corrosion additive. The corrosion problem is likely to be worse with ethanol fuel (partial oxidation of ethanol makes acetic acid, I.e. vinegar. It also makes acetaldehyde, which you may be able to smell as a slightly sweet chemical odour in the exhaust of a vehicle running on e85 until the cat warms up). It was even worse back in the days of leaded fuel, as they had to deliberately add acid-forming chemicals such as bromoethane to the fuel in order to keep the lead cleaned off the combustion chamber walls.

[@averyalexander2303]

@@nerd1000ify Great points, you are totally right! From my understanding, corrosive wear from moisture/acids condensing on the cylinder walls is one of the main reasons why wear is so much higher when the engine is cold than once it's fully warmed up. Most people seem to think that wear is purely a mechanical process and high wear rates on cold engines are just caused by dry starts and cold oil being too thick to flow well, but there's a lot more to it than that.

[@jrm523]

Great video! There is so much misinformation about oil and I also hate trusting oil manufacturers. I love your science based approach!

[@pancake_5703]

Im confused and interested about the topic of metallurgy and how that works, a seperate video more about that would be great

[@themotoroilgeek]

Noted

[@AdullFiddler-ez7tm]

Metallurgy is a very complicated subject and would take a 10 week course just for the basics.

[@mrmarkthompson2361]

I always add one quart of RISLONE Oil Additive to my Oil & Filter Changes for all vehicles I own. Never Any Mechanical Engine Problems & I always keep my vehicles up to 300,000 miles. I believe oil Additives Work.

[@scottgalbreath5707]

This is exactly why I do NOT alter my engine oil in any way, shape or form and I do NOT pour in any kind of aftermarket oil supplements like Lucas, Liqui-Moly Ceratec and so on. Too much of one thing isn't always a good thing. Again like you said, marketing has a huge thing to do with oil and so on but is it really doing what it says on the package/label. We typically call these types of products (Snake oils). This is also why I refrain from whatever oil is on-sale or cheap and ONLY buy and use boutique/enthusiast based lubrication products in my vehicles (AMSOIL).

[@kornelobajdin5889]

True my dad sad "pour in doctor car it will reduce oil consumption" Im like yeah if Ive wanted to tear up the engine in next 5k km I would add it. Otherwise no, id rather add more oil and continue driving. Car runs good, it has 276k km (180k miles) so oil consumption is expected. Recently I changed the oil to a liqui moly gt1 full synthetic. Have yet to see the consumption at 1000km. I have travelled 200 so far, and barely seen a difference on a dipstick. But Im pretty sure not every oil is the same. Better try different oil to find the best fit for your car.

[@scottgalbreath5707]

@kornelobajdin5889 Yes I agree and also have your oil tested and analyzed by an ASTM/ISO Certified Lab

[@kornelobajdin5889]

@@scottgalbreath5707 Honestly I don't have access to such testings 😅 Id rather go with trying out on my car and follow results. I may try another brand next oil change. Who knows.

[@sasquatch3869]

Loving your channel! Can you do a video on catch cans! Since so many turbo cars now days and people recommend catch cans, but we want science not speculation! Keep it up!

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thanks for the suggestion!

[@davidfoley8329]

This channel is like "Project Farm" if he actually had an education. No harm to him, as he tests things relentlessly. But he only shows results. YOU show WHY something happened. Sharing this channel to all my car geek friends! Great job!

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thank you!

[@michaelmartinez1345]

@ Motor Oil Geek, I recall seeing You on Daves Auto Center, and I was impressed with what You had to present there... The main topic of the conversation was centering on lubrication and the use of the Total Seal gapless piston rings that are located on the intermediate position between the top compression ring and the oil control ring.... Very interesting program!!!

[@p0intdk]

Great stuff Lake, we need more of it! 😄

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thanks!

[@deborahstein]

Hey there, Many viewers including myself find your videos very informative and I appreciate the modern oil technologies. My questions are, What is the very smelly additives used in some gear oils? Why does it attack the seals and metals of old equipment like Tractors and such? Would really like to get a History lesson regarding some of the older technologies. Thanks

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thanks for the question. The Sulfur based EP (extreme pressure) additives are what make gear oils stink, and they are also what attacks yellow metals. Oil formulating is all about balancing, which is why there isn't a single best oil for everything. The needs of a particular application will dictate the chemistry for that application.

[@rustedhorsepower5132]

Thank you for this video. Everyone says add zinc (im driving a 1969 chevelle with a flat tappet cam), but i always wondered if too much was bad. I just figured it was like fuel additives, if you add something, you have no idea what is already in the blend, you're better off just going with a good brand premium grade.

[@kennykennedy6298]

People make flat tappet cams out to be something they aren't. Any stock 350 small block with a flat tappet is not picky on oil. They very rarely every wipe lifters, due to their very low valve spring pressure. So not much force on the cam lobes. You don't have to worry so much about zink, more about changing your oil more often.

[@rustedhorsepower5132]

@@kennykennedy6298 ive never given a 2nd thought to what oil to use on a flat tappet cam until i heard about zinc additives changing or even being limited due to newer roller engines not needing as much. It made me think twice as to what i was taking off the shelf vs 20 years ago

[@usmc2002]

Please make a video over both topics. It would be great to see.

[@DSKdanny]

Please make a video about motor oil for heavy duty diesel applications like semi trucks.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Will do!

[@BruceFornesi]

45 year CLS here paint film is a very good explanation

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thank you!

[@JonathanGS]

Can you make a video about Valvoline’s restore and protect oil? Intrigued by its claims!

[@themotoroilgeek]

Coming soon!

[@JonathanGS]

@@themotoroilgeek awesome!! Thank you! Can’t wait!

[@patrickm.8425]

So glad to finally have a data video like this!! I've been telling guys for years, do not add excessive amounts of zddp to their engines, but they think it's some kind of magic fluid that can do no wrong! Now, I'll send them all here, and they can argue with you! lol Same thing with bearing clearances and oil weight! Everybody still talks that same ol' crap from 40+ years ago, "loose is fast", and run 20/50 oil or 60 weight oil, etc.!! smh Awesome video Lake, you're an awesome person to be sharing this info with the World!

[@Coltbrown]

Yeah that's the issue I'm trying to deal with right now, I'm trying to figure out how to to not play backyard chemist with zddp and still find an oil that will work in my newly built tight tolerance engine. 20w50 is just too thick for me

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thanks!

[@frankensteincreations4740]

I’d love to see a test on rotella 15w-40 T4. I run that in everything with mid level hp and reasonable bearing clearances…

[@CatDaddyTuning]

Google 540RAT Rotella

[@weldonbyington7566]

I highly respect this man, his dedication to educating people is beyond belief, I just wish he had been on KZbin 10 years before now, I lost time and money guessing on my own

[@MartinKirklandll]

Great info;thanks.Can we tone down the loud guitar riff screeching on the filler clips etc? I am an old “Metalhead” and even I find it annoying…can’t imagine the old CW folks😂…

[@davidsacco4860]

Couldn't agree more. I love rock and hard rock and most music. So many you tubers put this loud music in their videos to the point where it is very distracting and senseless. I always have to turn down the volume when this comes on.

[@24hourgmtchannel64]

Very interesting and another fantastic video. You bring a high level of credibility to the topic. Thanks also for explaining the 10w30 and lower requirements vs above. Always wondered how they were able to get away with higher levels in 0w40 and 5w40..

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thanks!

[@1randyharbin]

I find it ironic, I see people complaining about oil consumption on new motors, they usually say they didn't do anything special to break it in and drove it like they stole it, then there are those that say they are running an oil that doesn't meet the specs called out by the motor manufacturer, and so far no issues as far as they see. I break in an engine based on the manufacturers specs and a few old school methods that have worked since forever, here I am thinking constant throttle variation during the first 500+ miles and slowly increasing heat and cooling cycles to relieve manufacturing stresses in the metals more slowly over time instead of all at once. My motors get exactly what the manufacturer suggests for oil and break-in routine and I have yet to lose oil in one of my engines, and my oil analysis looks great. It's funny how that works!

[@chuckrosekowieski981]

I believe your story. I have had two "slapper engines". A 3.1 v6 and a 3.5 L HO Chrysler Product. The Chevy went 204,000 miles before being traded in good condition. The 09 Charger is running hot at 180,000. I'm going to trade it before it rusts, because I think the engine is still kicking ass. I just wanted to say that they designed some engines to be so loose that you can actually hear the piston slap. They got better mileage and the engines didn't seem to be lacking. My Charger is a Mercedes with a different doors and a hump glued to the back fenders. The steering wheel and the transfer case are Chrysler. I got a full assurance from Mercedes that the engine would burn at least a quart of oil between changes and that it would stay the same the life of the car. They were right. Against my instincts, I have to tell you that oil loss is not necessarily an engine problem. Oh, yeah, I like to buy a new car with no test miles. The break in is usually done by a lunatic if it has been test driven 10 times. Old school is best during break in. No surges, but definite pressure ranges and temperatures. Don't drive like you stole it, don't drive like an old lady.

[@chuckrosekowieski981]

Also, on oil analysis tests like at Blackstone. If you give them more info on your oil slips, they can give you more wear advice. You can call them too. My only recommendation is to not necessarily go for the maximum amount of miles per change. Of course I don't do 3,000 miles. I tow sometimes. I change around tows and then usually use the oil life counter for regular miles. At about 40% remaining life, I change. The computer automatically tells you to change earlier if you have been a bad driver. Oil analysis is the only way to know when your oil might be compromised. Plus you get to know your engine better. What's not to like there? I even do analysis on my tranny juice. I have an 8 speed in my Ram, so I'm new to these gearboxes that don't have a dipstick.. I guess if a dipstick is driving; I'm OK.

[@9ZERO6]

IMO, oil consumption in modern engines is a result of only two things; Poor engine designs or extended oil drain intervals that seizes oil control rings.

[@jamescaron6465]

That was an excellent tutorial, professor. I really learned a lot today. My wife has a Land Rover discovery too and using a hi zinc oil is a very big deal in that Buick made motor, but I think I’m gonna read the labels a little more carefully to find out exactly what I’m putting in.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thanks!

[@arthurrodesiler3109]

I like to see how we make a flat tappet cam live. Am tied of seeing roller lifter going bad all the time. I would think a roller lifter with a bushing would hold up much better. I think most roller lifter cams need to use a bronze gear on distributor shaft which I have seen a lot of cams eat them up. Am talking about SB and BB engines made in the 50s threw 80s. I know on SBC AND BBC you could use a spilt collar distributor or a shim kit to try and get the distributor gear and camshaft gear as close to 90 degrees to try and stop it. It helps but still wears out. Last time I put a cam in one of my engines was 30 years ago and used all brand new Crane Cam and kit and lube they gave you in the kit.. Never had a problem with a 20 minute break in 2 days apart. Run it 20 minutes between 2,000 and 3,000 rpm let cool down till the next day or maybe a few days later when I had the time. After that I changed the oil and filter as Crane Cam break in sheet said. Used 20w 50w Pennzoil oil and never had a problem with my drag cars. On street cams same break in but used 10w 30w oil. Now all I see is cam failures. What was once a simple cam change that work till today they all seem to go bad within 4 or 5 hours? I never used anything but Pennzoil in all my engines as am 72 now and never had a engine oil related problem in my life yet. I change my oil every 2,000 to 3,000 miles on my regular cars. On my drag cars and street cars went by how the oil looked and how new the break in was yet..

[@nerd1000ify]

The issue (as with many things) is a mixture of factors. Flat tappets last well when they have lower spring pressures, many DOHC engines run flat tappets or buckets and are totally fine indefinitely. Pushrod engines with big valves need very heavy valve springs to maintain valve control at high RPM, hence extreme loads on the flat tappets. Also higher rocker ratios increase the load on the tappet even when the valve spring is unchanged. And finally I've seen many reports of substandard parts with poor heat treatment etc. Antiwear like ZDDP helps but there is always a limit to what it can do, and modern oils have less of it. So for a street car, I think the recipe is something along the lines of 1) use appropriate oil, e.g. motorsports oil or pre-dpf diesel oil that has a good level of antiwear. 2) design the engine for sensible RPM for the street, don't use heavier valve springs than needed and don't use excessive rocker ratios (which will also be harder on your valve guides anyway) beyond what's required for the target performance level. 3) use parts from reputable suppliers who are prepared to guarantee their components are properly made.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Stay tuned!

[@supercuda1950]

Sadly advertising by oil companies differs from fact and us dummies (in a highly complicated subject) have few ways of finding out what is fact and what is friction (I mean fiction). In all this confusion you provide the answers (even though I have to watch your videos repeatedly to grasp the info you give. Thanks for the education!

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thank you!

[@flyonbyya]

Too bad this level of research effort and testing hasn’t and isn’t being applied to body and chassis.

[@patrickm.8425]

Too bad this level of research effort and testing hasn’t and isn’t being applied to the human body, and the crap food they make available to us!!

[@TurboDog73TX]

It is. But the people doing it aren't sharing it for free.. Most of them at least. There are some knowledge droppers here on YT, you've got to seek them out, and then use some judicious discernment when You watch.

[@snek9353]

@@patrickm.8425 Truth, the more you know the more when in a grocery store all you see is drugs and poison.

[@lordleonusa]

This is the best explanation I have ever seen.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thanks!

[@kris9524]

Yes, please to the video on engine surface finish.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Check out the Total Seal channel for some deep dives on that.

[@kris9524]

Will do. Thanks!

[@bobirving6052]

Yes please. Advanced episodes would be great. Thanks for educating us!

[@Whateva67]

I’m glad I saw this video today. I have a Honda prelude with the H22 engine, these, along with NSXs and S2000s have FRM cylinder walls that are really hard wearing but once the rings wear out, the engine starts burning more oil as the walls are smooth with no crosshatching. I was thinking about adding zinc to combat the wear but after seeing this, I’m not gonna bother. I’m not burning any oil yet so I must be doing something right anyway.

[@dudeman8323]

I'd like to see the data on these engines as well. When the F20c was released, several owners changed the break in oil early and had trouble getting compression and HP numbers up. Honda claimed the frm was for lower friction allowing higher rpm. I don't remember any claims about lower wear... My F20c has lasted 25 years and 146,000 miles at high rpm.

[@avasolaris1]

Hi. Great stuff. I would love to see a video on surface finish etc. More details are more interesting to me. Cheers and thanks again.

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thanks!

[@GhostSniper67]

If ZDDP is attracted to ferrous iron, then does that cause a problem with all the ALUMINUM parts needing lubrication in newer engines? I understand the RINGS are probably steel, but what about all the other non-ferrous iron parts?

[@logroller3122]

Yes - I think that is a good question about non-ferrous parts. Interested in how Aluminum behaves and what it might mean in modern engines.

[@ib2qwik2c]

Please make a video on different liner and ring material compatibility with different types of oils. It would be great to have general recommendations as well

[@konstantinostselios1129]

Awesome that is a education class level video for free thank you and have a great day

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thanks!

[@themotoroilgeek]

Thanks!

[@glenniz1]

It is a true pleasure to watch you GEEK out about motor oil Lake! Being a Science Nerd myself, I find these videos to be extremely informative, as well as very entertaining!👍🏁