Theonomy: Good or Bad (Guest: Tom Hicks) - Episode 25

[@francesca95]

I absolutely loved this! The more I learn about theonomy the more thankful I am for the cross! Thank the Lord for His mercy!

[@TheParticularBaptist]

Glad it was a blessing to you :)

[@keithrowley2193]

The best 42 minutes spent, All week. Really good guys!

[@TheParticularBaptist]

Thanks!

[@michealferrell1677]

Dr Tom Hicks is a major influence on my family, I’ve learned so much from his clear teaching of Gods word . I know that he doesn’t like to get into anything that would get into quarrels over secondary issues, but he is definitely a great mind fir such topics as this .

[@isaaccisneros8981]

This was really good. This was one of the best explanations on this topic.

[@chrisjohnson9542]

This is so refreshing. Please can you guys help me out with more resources for 1689 Baptist theology specifically dealing with theonomy and Christian Nationalism? I really appreciated this stuff and theres so much rise of theonomy and postmilennialism on the internet right now and not enough of this type of pushback. God bless

[@singanewsong4279]

Found your video after noticing the explosion of Theonomists on the scene. Starting at 38:00 to the end. You Nailed It.

[@TheParticularBaptist]

Thank you!

[@wpuymac]

Thanks for doing this. I appreciate the conviction behind it, especially knowing the type of backlash and criticism that would be received. I would go so far as to say this was courageous.

[@TheParticularBaptist]

Thanks!

[@keyofdavidchristianchurch]

Civil death penalties (all 34) ARE for the New Testament. I preach this in our church and it's SAD that so many of you don't want to FULLY Obey the Bible. Pastor Aden

[@J.F.331]

I think you guys brought up some really good points and a lot to think about. Have you thought about having a discussion with a Theonomist like Jeff Durbin or Gary North? I think a lot of clarity can edification can come out of said discussion.

[@keyofdavidchristianchurch]

I'm happy to debate either of them. I've preached Theonomy for 7 years in our local church and was "friends" with Dr.North. He has passed. Durbin is a little WEAK on Theonomy, but is getting closer :)

[@nelisbornman9283]

Gr8 discussion thank

[@blank-964]

Enjoyed this, not sure I agree with every point though.

[@TheParticularBaptist]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@michealferrell1677]

Would not the general principle found in a given judicial law be equivalent to a moral principle of law ? I’m asking about 9:00 or so . I’m having difficulty understanding what he is saying exactly although I’m sure it’s right , could anyone maybe explain it further for me ?

[@burningsodium]

The Bible says that it is moral, if you catch a thief who has disposed of the stolen goods, to make him restore fourfold or fivefold. In your opinion, would it be moral to chop off his hands instead?

[@TheParticularBaptist]

What we mean by "moral" is what is found encased in the Ten Commandments. The commandment to have someone restore their goods is not found in God's transcendent law but found in the judicial laws of israel. The proper distinction must be made between moral law and judicial and the categories must not be conflated. With that said, it would not be "moral" in the sense given above to chop off someone's hand for robbery as that judicial law passed with the nation of Israel's passing. We must not find moral law behind the judicial laws, but use the moral law ("Ten Commandments) to inform us if there is "general equity" in that judicial law. Does that make sense?

[@burningsodium]

@@TheParticularBaptist Clear as mud. It sounds like your view of Jesus is that he is a king without any political positions.

[@bigsamtheevangelist5122]

would you say the proper application of Psalm 2 and the great commission would be to command kings and rulers to bow to the gospel, to come to Christ by faith, or else they will be destroyed by the wrath of God who laughs at wicked rulers thinking they can keep his binding chains, instead of instead hermeneutic of trying to use it to bring the moral law as it must be the rule over all nations? Technically no kings can have a God fearing theocracy unless they come to Christ by faith and they are convicted to honor what God says in His word on how to run civil government.

[@pccj316]

really good guys

[@TheParticularBaptist]

Thank you.

[@stevendavidson7118]

When Tom Hick read Hebrews 7, 8 notice how he picked verses out and didn't read them in context. For example Hebrews 8:13 he didn't read right before it, where in verses 8-12, the Lord is going to writes the Law on people's hearts, and Neighbors will teach each other the Law, he doesn't deal with the text at all.

[@TheParticularBaptist]

The text says nothing about teaching their neighbors the law. In fact, it expressly says in verse 11 that no one will need to teach his neighbor to know God since they will all know God, having the law of God on their hearts.

[@stevendavidson7118]

@@TheParticularBaptist I'm sorry you are right about that, the fact is that the Law of God is upon there hearts, there is no throwing out the Law in the New Testament. When he talked about the Ten Commandments as being the Moral Law in the NT he does not really prove it from the New Testament, just assumes it. Jesus taught in Matt 22: 34-40 that loving God and Neighbor Depend/Hang on the Law of Prophets, they are how you know how to Love God and Neighbor. I think it would be best to have a Theonomist on to actually discuss the topic, I've listened to two of your videos on it, and neither are convincing to why theonomy is wrong/unbiblical. I know in another video y'all about not having to have a person on the other side to discuss the topic, which I agree, but if you are wanting to convince Theonomist Christian that their view is unbiblical, I think it would be best to have a debate.

[@christopherjames1160]

Hebrews is specifically dealing the priesthood, it has nothing to do with the moral principles underlying the judcial laws. If God decides that executing adulteres is the appropriate moral application of the moral law, you do not have the right to decide otherwise. Since the new testament absolutely affirms the continuing validity of death penalties carried out by civil magistrates, we are obliged to affirn the same. You guys are picking and choosing which moral principles you think are binding, ironically accusing the theonomist as being inconsistent. We absolutely can take judicial laws from the old covenant, recognize universal moral principles and apply them in the new covenant. Paul himself did NOT refuse to be put to death under Mosaic Law in Acts , and explicitely identifes the function of the civil magistrate - define by Gods revealed law. In Hebrews 10, the argument about eternal judgement is an a fortiori argument, which means its logically assuming the validity of penal sanctions for civil crimes in order to justify making the argument for eternal judgement. Youve been reading too much Kline - which is the truly poor covensnt theology. Your argument from Hebrews actually.proves the theonomic thesis, rather than the antinimian one you are promoting. You misapplied Pauls argument wheb he says gentiles show they have the law written on theor hearts, this is only mentioned to condemn them before God, not to pretend the whims of fallen sinners are a model to follow. Natural sufficent to condemn, this is 100% the only way Paul appeals to what youd call "natural law," Paul entirely appeals to the old testament for standards of righteousness, godliness and holiness, including for the civil magistrate. "You will never find a new testament example of a judicial law being applied to gentile nations in the new testament." Uhm, Romans 13 prescribes the standards which ALL governments are to function under. Its not natural law. You guys are constantly confusing categories and making baseless claims using poor exegesis (or none at all, Klines intrusion ethic is completely devoid of a shred of exetegical support), while ironically and hypocritically accusing the theonomist of inconsistency. Amazing 👏

[@gbcelders7799]

Excellent podcast, guys! Do you have any written resource you would recommend on a congregational level?

[@TheParticularBaptist]

Glad you enjoyed it! Pastor Hicks write an article that could be helpful. pastortomhicks.com/2020/11/17/why-is-theonomy-unbiblical/ Van Drunen's "Living in God's Two Kingdoms" could be helpful as well.

[@williamemberley8525]

@@TheParticularBaptist Thanks for the response gentlemen.

[@seanmoore9713]

The real problem is that people use the word theonomy without using the original definition.

[@TheParticularBaptist]

Do you mean people that are for a theocratic system or those who are against?

[@seanmoore9713]

@@TheParticularBaptist the people who call themselves theonomists don't use the original definition. I thought you guys did a good job of accurately defining theonomy.

[@interestedmeow]

The most interesting part about the dispensational/paedo-Baptist ‘OT priority’ is frankly that neither of them actually understand most of the OT from the ancient Israelite and second temple Jewish mindset and worldview.

[@jimdee9801]

What is the point in the time wasting intro music.

[@TheParticularBaptist]

Hey Jim. We no longer use this intro. This video is from a while ago.

[@christopherjames1160]

This was a slanderous and laughable misapprehension of theonomy, presbyteriansm, and historic Reformed theology. How disappointing.

[@TheParticularBaptist]

In what way did this violate Reformed principles?

[@christopherjames1160]

@TheParticularBaptist I believe I said it misapprehended reformed theology, but, this could be tied to a violation of reformed principles that introduces a radical discontinuity between old and new covenant that the new testament does not bear out. To accuse the theonomist of being close to dispensationalism is tragically near sighted, considering the above mentioned discontinuity more closely resembles dispensational hermeneutics.