Game of Thrones/ASOIAF Theories | Valyria | Podcast

[@sleekoduck]

Millions of civilians - that's a way of looking at the Rhoynish Wars that people don't really think about. Wow. As always, your videos never disappoint.

[@josephradley3160]

The trade in slaves taken by conquest is similar to how ancient Rome did it. The army captures a town, city etc, the soldiers take slaves as their prize. Then sell them to slave traders. The more modern (post doom) slavery is a smaller scale operation. Corsairs, pirates, Dothraki do the collection and sell to the slave traders.

[@DafyddBrooks]

its great that you guys do these videos as it makes the whole history and world make a lot more sense to me now. keep up the great work :)

[@FishBoneD14]

The multiple chances for the ghiscari is a Punic war parallel.

[@Isildun9]

Ghiscari delinde est!

[@BruhMoment-mn9kn]

@@Isildun9 based 👌

[@mpalfadel2008]

@@Isildun9 Ghiscari Must Be Destroyed

[@nicklepin7133]

Yep I can also see some Babylonian and ancient Egyptian influence in terms of the pyramids. and the harpy

[@ivanbluecool]

I always love the idea in stories where we may be in current times of the time world but the past has such better technology and magic that it makes it much more exciting when someone in the main story can use a fraction of the old magic. Hopefully we see more of valyria in the future books

[@johngo3715]

The way The Valyrians dealt with the Old Ghiskari and Rhoynar remind me of the Wrath of the Lich King trailer. "Show restraint while exercising great power"

[@kaylew108]

Indeed. When Aegon and his sisters conquered Westeros, he and his family didn't enact a system of slavery throughout the land. It would seem that if that was the system they were used to, they would use it as kings in a conquered land. Very great points on this podcast.

[@michelmorio8026]

The way I always understood this part of the story was, the Valyrians and the people they ruled over kept slaves, from conquests and concerning the people they ruled over, they were allowed to keep their slaves, it just was banned/forbidden to sell or trade slaves! So from there on, slaves were either born into slavery or brought into by conquest/defeat, but not through „robbing“ them or trading them

[@theavocado6061]

Hey Dave roads are great for trade but I don’t necessarily know if they were strictly for that. The Romans, for example, are probably what George was trying parallel and as we know the Romans were pretty aggressive. Even here in the US we think of the Interstate system for civil travel. Of course they are great for that but they built during the Cold War with military uses in mind. Eisenhower was impressed with the German Autobahn network and pretty much copy and pasted it here at home. When you have a country like the US where we have like half a continent they wanted a way to quickly move troops and equipment quickly in the event of a Soviet attack.

[@theavocado6061]

@King Brandon IX Stark Thanks for the follow up and clarification. I know there are ppl who know a lot more about it than me but I just wanted to throw it out there. I know we had US routes earlier, however, my understanding has been the Interstate system as we know them today, I-80, I-95 etc, was started under Eisenhower. I better look into this a bit further.

[@LucyLynette]

There were also attempts to get the ball rolling on a nationwide highway system of some kind prior to the Cold War. As a young man, Eisenhower was part of one of those efforts.

[@alexanderdiaz8464]

Do you really need roads for 300 dragon riders though?

[@brucewaite3733]

It might also be might also be worth asking how these Valyrian got built with or with out any resistance from the lands they extended into. That would necessitate alot more details but it's worth asking. I'd wager any one already hostile with them wouldn't just sit by as they made marching field armies that easier

[@jacobenke7936]

@@alexanderdiaz8464 There are some things you can't do with dragons. The Valyrians didn't require a massive army, but they did need some, and they needed to be able to move them rapidly. The roman roads can still be seen in many places if you know what you are looking for.

[@AnythingAndEverything91296]

In reference to the “trade of slaves that they got by conquest” part, I’m pretty sure it means they would first get the slaves by force and then sell them for money, goods, or whatever. While the former part obviously isn’t a trade, the latter is.

[@jacobenke7936]

Part of the speculation about the Valyrians is that slaves went to one of two places: the mines or blood sacrifice. If we ever get clarification about the Doom it will likely involve something about an imbalance of Ice and Fire caused by what the Valyrians were doing.

[@balkrishnalaishram7417]

Everytime i want to rest or have trouble sleeping. I just listened to your theories of asoiaf and like a lulaby i would sleep after 20 30 mins. N. B. I listened even when i dont feel sleepy😂.

[@Hernameispamela]

Love these podcasts! Thanks for all the effort guys!

[@ashleyofnaath]

Xaro Xhoan Daxos' point about Dany destabilizing a centuries old balance - of which he's an immense beneficiary- has me convinced that he's the mystery poisoner in Meereen and he acted to restore that balance. Likely w/the connivance of House Pahl, another beneficiary of the balance who happened to have a massive grievance with Daenerys. The enemy of my enemy is my friend🤷‍♀️. Awesome episode as always. I look forward to Mondays for these.

[@Helloitsmeokay]

Missed you Thursday and in time for my drive home.

[@warlorddavid8290]

I know someone's probably already stated this but I want to let you know you're wrong about Persia. The central government of Persia did not endorse slavery, and in some ways we're against it. Now with that being said Persians were highly decentralized, and slavery took place in the satraps away from the Persian heartland of modern-day Iran

[@Cojer52]

Love these podcast videos. Thanks guys.

[@alexandergangaware429]

Counterpoint: The ancient Ghiscari didn't practice slavery, at least not at the scale they do today. The Green Grace tells Dany that they learned slavery from the Valyrians, and adopted it after the burning of their lands caused massive desertification and soil erosion, ruining the fertility. And their only real mineral asset is copper, less valuable for an iron-age world. Hence, the wholehearted embrace of the slave trade. And I think she's telling the truth, for several reasons. For one, the Harpy of Astapor (which serves as sort of a sigil for the city) is shown carrying a chain, while the Harpy of Yunkai carries a whip and an iron collar, which are both tools of the slaving business. Old Ghis, on the other hand, had its harpy carrying a thunderbolt, a more generic symbol of power. This suggests the embrace of slavery came after liberation, when new city governments were set up, and so new harpies could be designed. And don't get me started on the military organization of the Essosi city states

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

The Green Grace lies just about every time she talks. The history tells us the exact opposite of what she claimed

[@thedelacruz]

@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand Danny has a history of believing every 'nice ' old lady who eventually lies to her( Mirri Maz dur for instance, Quaithe ). The Green Grace is manipulating her and I wouldn't be shocked if she was behind the Sons of the Harpy.

[@alexandergangaware429]

@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand Cuz see, both modern Slavers' Bay and Volantis have a 5-1 slave-freeman ratio, and all use a mix of slave soldiers and sellswords. Lys, Tyrosh, and Myr all have 3-1 ratios, and seem to primarily rely on mercenaries and privateering. The Qohorik use Unsullied, and Norvos trains its own slave soldiers like Areo Hotah. Of the Free Cities, Braavos is the only one* that would seem to rely on its citizens to man its military (especially its navy, given that it can build a warship a day and considers its fleets to be its wooden walls), given that it is antislavery The pattern is that societies dependent on slavery are decadent, and the social contract between the government and the free citizenry is that the former must shield the latter from the burdens of war, especially the dangerous drudgery of soldiering. Only Braavos* with its commitment against slavery, seems to rely to any extent on citizen soldiers Which brings us to New Ghis and its Iron Legions, made up of freemen who serve mandatory three-year terms. An organizational model explicitly likened to the Lockstep Legions of Old Ghis. Thus, Old Ghis was not slavery-centric *Pentos is demilitarized by treaty, and Lorath doesn't count because of geopolitical irrelevance

[@frankvandorp9732]

@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand The maesters also lie every time they talk, and they wrote those histories. You can't just arbitrarily pick and choose which histories are false and which are true, simply based on what you want to be true.

[@RevealTheStyle]

Guys, we need part two about FIREWIGHTS AND FIRE OTHERS in Valyria! 🔥🔥🔥

[@RevealTheStyle]

P.S. Melisandre is a fire Other - LML’s theory 👌

[@pauldaskal9510]

Thanks again Dave & Mary Ellen!

[@lennartkaiser2809]

Yessssss Finally an other Podcast ❤️❤️🙌

[@bihottie26]

I just discovered you a week ago and I'm hooked! Valyria is my favorite!

[@navykip]

Another great discussion. Thanks for the mental escape from the daily grind.

[@bAmMoD216]

Thank-you for a different perspective on this topic, you're explanation makes a lot more sense then some other ideas.

[@bmirkhanzadeh]

They destroyed Rhoynars and enslaved them. Valyria was as bad as Gis and White walkers. They are just the fiery version of Others that ruining everything!

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

They kept the gloves on for centuries and didn’t unleash their dragons until after the Rhoynar drowned a few million of their people and made it necessary to take the gloves off

[@kcjeremiah7262]

Love these videos because you guys have a lot of similar conclusions I've drawn. From the World Book, I always figured anything that used the lock step legions created in Ghis was probably a slaving society. So, the turtle shielded slave spearman of the Rhoyne, the Unsullied, those shitty Dornish. I think Valyrians actually only enslaved slavers & used them in internment/work camps while using former slaves to oversee them (something Jaqan said once about how the Faceless Men came to be). Anyway, love the videos, especially since I also believe Jon is the son of Ned Stark (possibly Brandon) & Ashara.

[@christopherbrewer222]

Makes my day when I see a new Greenhand Video

[@toomuchsauce5599]

I think what they meant in regards to how they acquire their slaves is before the doom of Valyria the only way you could get slaves was only through “conquer” by raiding small villages, the lambs men , summer isle. However in the present time although they get some by trading with the Dothraki, most come from the children of their current slaves. As the expression goes “bred like a brewed mare”, they probably had a system of “mass production” to maximize their profits. It’s insinuated in Astapor in how the unsullied are ordered to kill a baby of a slave but paying the owner in silver, in what seems to be premeditated agreement that’s only possible if those babies are in abundance. It’d make sense for them to come up with a system more suited for settled land, as by then most of the habitable lands outside the gates of every city have been conquered or are vulnerable to a Dothraki raids. Not to mention how much they’d save on traveling, the cost of steel, loss of lives, etc.

[@peteperkins3859]

I suspect the crews building the roads, or trading caravans from Valyria were attacked by land pirates, so the Valyrians got tired of it.

[@cbob213]

Missed your video this week 😢 I hope your move went well M.E. =) Another great podcast

[@madambutterfly1997]

I wish they had green lit the prequel series about valyria leading up to the doom

[@johngo3715]

Probably not the right time with all the Hollywood woke stuff ruining how accurate and intense shows/movies can be.

[@madambutterfly1997]

@@johngo3715 they’re not truly woke

[@matematicarka]

they would probably not give it justice

[@D.Records]

Missed you guys last week!

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

sorry about that...moving to Valyria took a little longer than we hoped

[@shanenolan8252]

@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand its always summer in valaria ( sunny in Philadelphia) .

[@D.Records]

@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand oh i forgot you guys were moving. How was the voyage?

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Long

[@shieldsyx]

I view Valyrian Slavery in the same light as many of our own ancient and pre ancient cultures. It was the alternative to death penalty and only capital /war criminals were made slaves. And as for our own ancient cultures the Persians were the old Gists and were heavy slavers as the Egyptians are more relatable to Valyria and have been painted as slave culture by mostly certain religions. We’re the historical evidence suggests slavery was not a main stay in Egypt till the Greeks to over

[@AbdulBido]

Val and aria. One of the North, and one of the real North.

[@Rodiacreed]

Are you really assuming that 250 years of wars were all started by the Rhoynar? You are too biased in favor of Valeriyans. Also I highly doubt millions died when the Rhoynar attacked since these aren't modern cities. Several hundred thousand based on the size of King's Landing which is a very large city. Valeriyan sorcery was based mainly on blood magic which requires human sacrifice. They needed lots of slaves for their horrible wyrm filled mines and blood magic. They were 100% pro slavery.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

No. We didn’t say there were 250 years of wars started by the Rhoynar. We said the Valyrians gave them 250 years worth of chances to live in peace. They could have annihilated them the first time

[@Richard_Nickerson]

Detailed comment responses in video form are a good idea.

[@roguerodriguez8215]

I hope you guys do more parts about valyria since there was so much to talk about the different types of magic their language the few non Targaryen valyrian characters etc...

[@sayarhmehdi3597]

A force for good that sacrifices people to forge steel. Nice one

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

We didn’t say perfect. We said they were a positive for the world overall. That’s very different

[@wizardvrse7338]

Just a heads up- Nymeria added the spear to the Martell sigil not the Sun.

[@yuan713]

Well some civilizations didn't have slavery until they were colonized, so basically due to the influence of another culture (Idk if that counts). Then there's the differences between slaves and war prisoners.

[@AnndenMark]

What civilizations are you referring to, that never had slaves?

[@QueenDaenerysTargaryen]

I am the blood of old valyria 🔥🐲

[@plainbrad]

GRRM sigil is mosst likely a turtle ( he even had a charater in a book named Turtle).

[@mikebramlett445]

22:45 was that a toilet I heard? Love the videos y'all!

[@looverse2023]

Unrelated to Valyria, but Varys can read minds. In A Clash of Kings when Tyrion is testing out Cersei’s spy, Varys referred to honey, which Tyrion only thought while talking to Little Finger.

[@looverse2023]

@King Brandon IX Stark He had a bird on his thoughts? You know those are inside his head. He did not talk to Little Finger about the honeycomb and watching for bees. He thought it. And Varys made reference to them.

[@MissPopuri]

Hmm, perhaps, it could be also that Tyrion’s face was saying something about honey not that Varys reads minds. Where is this exactly because I don’t recall the specifics in the scene?

[@looverse2023]

@@MissPopuri Pg 562 Tyrion *thinks* Littlefinger looks like he’d just taken a bite of a honeycomb but was wary of bees but the honey was just so sweet. Then on 567 Varys is discussing what Tyrion wants from Doran Martell and Varys says if he were Doran the honeycomb might have to be sweeter for him to reach for it. And Tyrion suspects Varys knows what was in the letter Pycelle sent off. The reason is not birds. He knows *thoughts*

[@CJusticeHappen21]

It's important to remember that not all slaves are equal. Some were doctors, mæsters, apothecaries, people who knew routes for trsde and espionage, comedians and builders.

[@derhustlerderhustler2589]

thanks very much guys

[@thedelacruz]

Maybe this was addressed already but wasn't Nymeria's Sigil the spear and the Martel's the sun? Then they were merged together? Sun= Dorn Spear = Nymeria?

[@Isildun9]

Hence why the ruling house of Dorne is actually named Nymerios Martell, Martell for short.

[@brucewaite3733]

It's the reverse i believe. I think house Martell's original sigil was the spear

[@constantinetranos2225]

Valyrians/Others Parallels: 1. Both are supernaturally beautiful, yet dangerous like Ice and Fire. 2. The Others reseruct the dead ( enslaving the unrested souls of humans) disturbing the circle of life, while the Valyrians were obsessed with slavery and genetic manipulation, creating monstrous abominations.

[@RevealTheStyle]

Were they? There was a prison colony island indeed, Gogossos, but that one was used for breeding half-human hybrids even before Valyryans took hold of it.

[@RevealTheStyle]

I would rather like to think, that just as Others have their “cold zombies”(wights + Coldhands??), valyrians also had their own kind of undead. Firewights, like Beric Dondarrion. Probably even “fire Others”, like Melisandre and Mocorro. (Shout out to LML). That would have explained most reasonably, why Faceless men with their “all men must die” motto were considering Valyrians as abomination. Valyria had a slave army of firewights, who had laboured in inhumane conditions of their mines.

[@shanenolan8252]

Thanks dave and mary Ellen.

[@doogle13]

The Persian Empire you were probably referring to actually outlawed slavery. Slavery was certainly common in the Ancient world, but it was far from universal.

[@thedripkingofangmar6778]

No, slavery was basically universal, with some ecceptions. Civilizations that never came into contact with each other thousands of kilometers apart had slavery

[@doogle13]

​@@thedripkingofangmar6778 So we are agreed then.? Slavery was not universal. Since universal is not the same as "basically universal with some exceptions".

[@frankvandorp9732]

You seem to start with a desired conclusion ("the Valyrians weren't that bad") and then work backwards from there to fit everything you read in the World of Ice and Fire into that conclusion. For example, you interpret the Valyrians as merciful for not genociding the Rhoynar for 250 years while they could, until the Rhoynar aggression could no longer be ignored. But there is nothing in the text that suggest the Rhoynar were actually starting any of these wars, in fact, the very last one was kicked off by the three dragonlords burning down a Rhoynish city, a clear act of Valyrian aggression. It is akin to saying the Europeans were really nice to the Africans actually, because they could have colonized Africa in 1600 already, but they waited until 1800 to really get started there. It just makes no sense, and GRRM, as a historian, would never intend for his history of Westeros to be interpreted so positively for one side who, as is clearly stated, were the invading party who tried to colonize the Rhoyne area, where the Rhoynar already lived. The Valyrians were the ones spreading out to other people's countries to settle (aka, steal) their land. At no point did the Rhoynar ever show any ambition of attacking Valyria itself, they just wanted a foreign aggressor and slaver gone from their lands. The text explicitly states the Rhoynar never had interest in expansion. George often draws from real history to inspire his history of Planetos, and the Valyria/Rhoyne conflict is clearly inspired by European colonialism. It even describes the progression of colonialism as it happened for example in North America. First the Rhoynish princes welcomed the Valyrian settlers into their lands, stating that the bounty of Mother Rhoyne was for all peoples of the world to share. But as the Valyrians grew stronger and more numerous, the Rhoynish "came to regret the forbearance of their forebears". Then he states that a great advantage the Valyrians had was they worked together, while the Rhoynish were more like individual tribes who each worked alone. He even makes sure to inform the reader that the Rhoynish were actually really progressive and allowed women to rule as often as men, which is a (rather incorrect) image many people have of original Native American cultures. The parallels between the European/Native American conflict and the Valyrian/Rhoynish conflict is obviously quite intentionally put there by George. And I really don't think George intended his stand-ins for genocidal European colonialists to be seen as reasonable, merciful people who eventually had no other option than to brutally slaughter the savage natives. The Valyrian Empire seems to be written as an evil empire, just not the kind you see in some other works where evil empires are just evil for the heck of it. Instead, Valyria was evil in a very human way, caused by human greed, ambition, decadence, cruelty and indifference.

[@keithhudgins1904]

word

[@thedripkingofangmar6778]

You can see whatever real world parallels you want but the truth is that the Valyrians were pretty open handed. All of their colonies were granted self government and at the end of the day they didn't conquer much, even having a positive relationship with Sarnor and the likes. Over the course of thousands of years they destroyed 2 civilizations, which isn't much tbh. On a side note, the Europeans definetely couldn't have colonized Africa in 1600 because they lacked immunity to local diseases. That's why they had to buy slaves from Africa instead of taking them for free.

[@eziowayne]

I’m really enjoying this podcast series! Keep up the great work y’all!

[@jacobenke7936]

A thought on the Rhoynar: The Dornish, especially the Martells, are still trading in slaves. They don't have a fleet at home to speak of, their lands are not rich other than fruit where there is ample water next to the few rivers Their lands are largely barren. Where do the Martells, who are obviously rich, get their money?

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Exactly. Watch our Doran series. We discuss that in the second video if I’m not mistaken

[@MaoThe1st]

My Persian history is a bit rusty, but I think there was no slavery in their empire, at least in the iteration that Alexander subsequently conquered. It's one of the great misconceptions in history - we picture Spartans and other Greeks as these noble defenders of freedom, while in reality, they were a bunch slavers (Spartans even had Greek slaves, the Helots, which was a big no-no even in Greek culture). Persians were shockingly tolerant and forward thinking for their time - no slavery, religious tolerance.

[@ptptpt123]

They should have sent dragon riders to whack those 10,000 ships.

[@presleybaldwin3756]

That was fascinating.

[@thomasspyri9067]

Great another podcast!! They are great you should keep them up! I would like to ask an unrelated question though. In dance, illyrio after being asked by tyrion about the blackfyres, says that the male line has eclipsed implying that the female line had not. Is there any possibility that there is secret blackfyre running around, who's father might even be illyrio himself, thus explaining the mummers dragon daenerys was warned about? I would really love to hear your opinion on this as it has been bugging me for months! Thanks beforehand!

[@ashleyofnaath]

Many fans would say fAegon, but I don't think the N+A folks are in favor of that because they think fAegon is Lyanna's baby. But fAegon is the common consensus for a lot of others.

[@thomasspyri9067]

@@ashleyofnaath I know i ask this in a context where we believe that L+R=Aegon to be true. Then who might that blackfyre be?

[@trethornton1709]

Maybe Nymeria's sigil was the spear and the martell sigil was the sun and when she married him they combined the two?

[@andrewniehoff8612]

I would propose a counter-argument regarding the slave trade. As you yourself stated, the trade brought in great wealth. Is it not possible that the Valyrians simply enforced a monopoly on it? After all, they were traders and what trade was more profitable? Then the Ghis simply took the trade back after the Doom. As for not always conquering there are possible explanations for that. One, they did not want to advance themselves too far too fast and overstretch themselves. Two, not economically feasible. Real world example; the US and its allies could take North Korea, but the cost, both of conquering it and bringing it up to speed would be greater than any benefits. The same may have been true for the Valyrian. As for Garin the Great, there are several possibilities. Like him or no, it cannot be denied that, at least at first, he was a successful military commander; see Alexander the Great and Pompeii the Great. Another possibility would be he would be see as their equivalent of Vlad the Impaler; who many see as a butcher, but many of his own see him as a hero for fighting the Turks; or in this case a butch of incest-practicing dragon-lovers who killed a sacred religions creature and seemed bent on having the whole world for themselves.

[@andrewniehoff8612]

@King Brandon IX Stark Thanks for commenting and allow me to answer your points. These are just my opinions and I could be wrong. As for the effects that he had on his own people, I am not sure that he was aware of how strong the Freehold was; it almost sounds like before that they only sent a few dragons at a time so he probably did not know that it was a trap. As to his massacring of Valyrians, that was started by the Valyrians, who were pushing into Rhoynish territory in the first place, destroyed Sarhoy. I am sure that civilians were killed there as well and so it was the dragon lords who set the rules for that conflict. As for the slaves I think that they were more involved in it than it is stated. Look at Gogossos and the story of the Kindly Man; I am skeptical that those were the results of one or two sudden infusions of slaves. I would also point the former colonies in the Free Cities who make much wealth in the slave trade. Did they all suddenly undergo simultaneous moral degradation after the Doom?

[@nichoalsmith7712]

First I like your videos and recognize your efforts. When I comment I do it to open discussion not to be insulting or rude. Now, that said, this discussion is about trying to distinguish something that shouldn’t be. I don’t care who is enslaving who it’s slavery. It preys on the weakest of any society. The ones left behind… the widows, the children, the elderly, the craftsman; those that can’t fight. You keep mentioning the Valyrian went out of their way to not completely destroy their foes but it doesn’t mean it’s out of a moral goodness. Rather it’s greed. If you intend to not use slavery and you have dragons then you burn an opposing civilization to the ground and no one will challenge you again. They will let you in no matter why you show up. Leaving survivors allows you to destroy the fighters, the ones who cause trouble and leaves you to gather the craftsmen and artisans and move them to the Valyria. The fact is that Valyria like their neighbors practiced slavery and had populations born into slavery. As readers we want their to be a distinction because Danearys makes a stand but that doesn’t mean the society highlighted by this fictional world did or would. Just like the Romans, our huge cultural influence, practiced slavery and benefited from its existence. It’s still not distinguishable and shouldn’t be. It’s the oldest lesson in the world that humans are capable of great things and even worse atrocities.

[@greenrighthand]

What happend last week to the live stream?

[@ripduck9361]

Good looks big homies

[@destaniebarnes]

1000 years ago wasn't that when house Manderly moved North

[@destaniebarnes]

Nvmd

[@andrescalderonsanchez6515]

Plus remember what happened to the oakhaerts

[@pauldaskal9510]

Thousand years ago ...was it Bravvos

[@TheLastSoundNL]

I wouldn't use Biblical stories as a proof of Egyptian slavery. Scholars are very sceptical of that claim. A lot of biblical stories are taken from an older faith or legends, like I think Moses was originally a Zoroastrian prophet.

[@mhammedakrot3600]

Hi David of the Green hand Hi marry of the Green hand

[@made-line7627]

I'd rather drown than be burnt alive ☹️

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Neither are good opinions

[@made-line7627]

@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand Touché

[@wagrhodes13]

There is little to no real world evidence of the Exodus story and Hebrew slavery. All archeology points to most of the large building project being done by Egyptian citizens who's labor was sort of taxes being paid to the Pharoh. That is not to say there wasn't slavery, there was, just not for those purposes.

[@Ravi9A]

@King Brandon IX Stark It's decades old info at this point that there is zero historicity to exodus narrative.

[@frankvandorp9732]

The Exodus story is obviously a legend, not real history. But as you always see with legends, is that the people who construct them will use their own knowledge of their own time for it. So the whole "brutal Egyptian slavery" trope as depicted in Exodus was not a memory the Hebrew people had of the Egyptians 500 years earlier, but a story based on their contemporary Egyptians and the way they treated their slaves. It's a bit like medieval artists painting scenes from the Trojan war and depicting the soldiers as medieval armored knights.

[@Ravi9A]

@@frankvandorp9732 ah yes, the mass murdering Hebrews, complaining about the Paid workers of the Egyptians. Your attempts at letting exodus retain value as sociological commentary fail when actual history knowledge is referred to. There is zero value there.

[@frankvandorp9732]

@@Ravi9A What a childish reply. Every 2300 year old text has extreme historical and sociological value. Your own personal gripes with the jewish and christian religions are utterly irrelevant to that fact. And yeah, Egyptians used slaves at times. Their civilization existed for 3000 years or so, you are simple in the head if you think you can just say "Egypt used paid workers" because they did so at one point for one specific project during those 3000 years. Believe it or not, things change all the time over the course of 3000 years.

[@Ravi9A]

@@frankvandorp9732 "But but" They have value in describing Hebrews, not the wild fantasies they had of others. You deserve childish replies lmao if that's best defense you can manage. Feel free to your religion, but do not delude yourself into thinking it has universal value like some semi literate shepherd who can't conceive of the wider world.

[@SHARKVADERS]

OOTGH !!!!!!!

[@yaboyed5779]

So Rome with Dragons

[@wolfsbanealphas617]

This feels unfinished are you making a part 2

[@maxmercer1931]

Any word on TWOW yet? Or is George just going to dangle it in front of his fans every time he has a new HBO series to sell?

[@PhilHibbs]

So the Braavosi are descended from the worst slavers ever.

[@brucewaite3733]

Oh look, 4 haters disliked this video....make them fly!!!!

[@Pacbandit13]

Slavery was illegal in the Achameid Persian empire

[@peterwindhorst5775]

but was still being practiced in far flung areas of the empire

[@markd.s.8625]

the kh in khal/khalasar is pronounced like the ch in loch

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

no

[@markd.s.8625]

@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand yes

[@tooslow4065]

'middle class' is the word you're looking for. there is no middle class in essos.

[@alt-monarchist]

Although I love and respect you guys, why do you Generalize ESSOS as if it's the same all over the continent???

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

?

[@shanecoles3840]

Getting Dan Carlin vibes from this podcast

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

don’t know what that means!

[@shanecoles3840]

@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand A history podcaster!

[@visenyatargeryen2704]

Harappa/Indus valley civilization didn't participate in slavery

[@bungalowfeuhler1541]

The Ten Commandments is not a documentary. It’s a movie. For being so obsessed with fake history, you should brush up on your actual history.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Charlton Heston wasn’t a documentary star?

[@alexandergangaware429]

The Freehold only gave Qarlon the Great one chance before they burned Lorassyon

[@alexstewart9747]

George has withheld too much information to keep us guessing. Infuriating isn’t it ??

[@cassiocosta9854]

first

[@davidmcneilly1010]

Up the greenhand

[@CAN_I_FINISH]

brah.... way too many ads

[@redladie8528]

How bout the quote where valyria the truce between valyria and the andles only last so long and that it's likely they fled to avoid valyrian conquer and ultimately slavery...you picked quotes took them out of their context and applied it to your own. Valyria were conquerors, with that they enslaved people, lot of people, face it

[@dark_fire_ice]

Egypt and Persians did not have slaves, not until the Greeks brought them

[@dragonpharaoh8640]

stop trying to talk history. The Egyptians NEVER enslaved conquered people, neither did the Persians or some other Mesopotamian kingdoms. this is a false and very wrong claim. Romans and other Anglo Saxon /Norse Kingdoms were the kingdoms that practiced this automatic enslavement of conquered people.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

I’d say calling the Egyptian enslavement of the Jews anything other than enslavement from being conquered a semantic argument. They lived in Egypt, were overpowered by the pharaohs and were subsequently enslaved. The Persians had a largely slave army if I’m not mistaken and you’d be hard pressed to make a convincing argument that they didn’t come largely from within the territories they came to dominate, so I’d say that’s another rather semantic argument. And none of this changes the point I was making. It was a common practice in the ancient world

[@dragonpharaoh8640]

@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand what are your evidences that there was "an Egyptian Enslavement of Jews"?. the biblical version of events is not a solid factual history, nor is it even an argument. Even according to this source: there was no complete enslavement of Israelites - still not Jews at the moment - there was a prosecution under a specific ruler . This ruler by the way has never been proved to be an Egyptian Pharaoh or King according to actual history research. secondly: your argument is: "Enslaving conquered people was a common practice in the old world", sir or madam: this is completely wrong. with exceptions of practices by the Assyrians mostly of enslavement and brutality, most old civilizations especially Egyptian and Persians NEVER and I repeat NEVER enslaved the conquered people, neither to turn them into slaves in their own lands, nor to use them in slave trade. By the way: I do not know where you came by the notion that Persians had a slave Army. the army of the Persian empire in the first Greco Persian war for example was a mix of troops from all the provinces and regions controlled by the Persians. that was the norm of the Persian authority on the regions of their empire. it was no slave army at all.

[@peterwindhorst5775]

other than conquering and enslaving Kush

[@persephone342]

@@TheOrderoftheGreenhandThe Ottoman’s had a slave military called The Janissary. Those not born as a Muslim were slaves under Ottoman Law. The Sultan “owned” everything. Children were sold to the Janissary, while other came to volunteer their services because of the immense power and wealth that could be obtained if you were a gifted servant of the Sultan. Same with Harem. People were usually freed after 5-7 years of service. As for the enslavement of Jews by the Egyptians (Ottoman Empire 800 BC-1900’s), uh… no, we weren’t enslaved by our Muslim occupiers. They actually stepped in and brought many of my people from Spain to the Ottoman Empire under Selim I. They also hid us during WWII. The Persians were another caliphate, but they did not hold the same amount of power as their Ottoman counterparts and they had some really awesome Sultans that made impressive achievements in the Arts, Music, Mathematics, Science, and Medicine.