Theory Balance - Nerf Hull Tanking

[@XtraSquishy]

i had one of those full hull nestors that had combat probes and triple neuts was just like ima head out

[@stitchk2755]

I found one while roaming a week or two ago. It tackled me and then they decloaked an arazu to cyno in a nyx. Thankfully the nestor pilot panicked and MJD'd from torpedo dps and i just warped out after neuting the arazu.

[@howissorvolgetaken]

@@stitchk2755 zkillboard.com/kill/85465523/ That was me, sadly it passed away :( my thought process with it was to make something that could solo almost anything and survive getting blobbed by meta kity gangs if there was bad intel. I have most of my corp using triple neut hull armageddons for mostly the same reason, it makes a good ship for people with less pvp experience to not welp. Nestor is probably my favorite of these because it aligns in like 8 seconds and still gets good speed with an overheat 500mn (nearly 1900 m/sec). Love your content, glad one of my ships made it into your video without you killing it (you killed my overpropped hecate in your raptor video) Edit: abyssal damage controls, which cost basically nothing, can bump the ehp up by like 15% on some of these ships.

[@salvadoralessandro8863]

I know im asking randomly but does any of you know of a way to log back into an Instagram account?? I was stupid forgot my password. I would love any assistance you can give me.

[@kanejaxxon599]

@Salvador Alessandro Instablaster =)

[@N1NJ4P1R4T3]

Audio was a bit low on the video. Turned it up so I could hear you then forgot to turn down before listening to some music, blew the house down, lmao :D

[@N1NJ4P1R4T3]

Loving this series of videos, btw.

[@stitchk2755]

@@N1NJ4P1R4T3 Thanks! Sorry for the low audio, i normally adjust the output but realized i forgot once you mentioned it.

[@Devildoginvu]

Add stacking penalties and create hull repair ships

[@NihlusArtanis]

People Roam Null in small fleets of those quite often. My Bhaalgorn neuted out their whole fleet and we mopped them up with ease. They thought tackling a carrier with their fleet would get them an easy kill. They were sorely mistaken.

[@BlueEyesGaming]

*prepare for long salty rant.. woops* Aye. the super hulltanked ships are part of the problem that pretty much pushed me out of eve... i'd say permanently but i mean, we all know it sucks us back in. The other parts to the problem are "nothing but t2 and piratre ships EVERYWHERE" And long range control ships. *loki, rapier/huginn, arazu/lach, even curse to some degree. And no way to force a fight before they can bring EVERYTHING. if you kite, you get caught from 50+ k by a loki/rapier. so you "have"to brawl if your within 20k you'll probably be caught by one of these 150k ehp BC's. "so you have to kite" and if you stay in an area for more than a minute. they will bring a 30man gang with t2 logi, pirate and faction ships, recons out the ass and a cyno on standby. anywhere over 30x more than needed to kill you. unlike the old days of t1 and a few t2 ships, these ships just are NOT balanced en-masse. "so just dont go their home space" And then you leave those busy systems.. and find nothing for 20-30+ jumps. forcing you back into that cancerous shite, or be bored chasing bot or "smart" ratters who are in warp to their citadel when u enter local. oh and triglavian shit. Drek is pure op. Solo roaming in null is as close to dead as it can be. and these hulltanks are definitly part of the issue. I love the video.. might even get a change out of CCP. but i'd be skeptical of it doing all too much to the current problems.

[@stitchk2755]

Yeah thats pretty accurate. I still solo roam nullsec, but it takes a lot more patience and awareness than it used to. I have to limit myself to time spent in a system and know where jump bridges are in relation to my escape routes since they are everywhere now. Getting fun fights in null has gotten extremely difficult lately, but i still try. Until i find a lowsec hole and see if i can find a fight amongst all the BLOPs droppers.

[@BlueEyesGaming]

@@stitchk2755 Fuck.. gonna rant more. tbh. im not sure i totally agree. even with patience and awareness, the absurd spaghetti of jump bridges means, the best u can do is find a "safe" system to filament or hole out. Trying to get a fight isnt a matter of effort or skill, or even really patience *unless u mean patiently getting dunked 10 times for the one CHANCE at a fight.* nor is it a "difficult" exercise "difficult" isnt the word i'd use. more like "Gamble" its a roll of the dice. Do they fight? or do they bring a hic + recon to your next in-gate. or just ignore you entirely because they dont need to fight you, there is nothing u can do to harrass them, if u kill a ratter its just killing the afk or stupid. they see it as a self-fixing problem. its so severely fucked atm. its been a slowly escalating problem since rorquals were made godtier. a problem ive been ranting and reeing over while getting to watch the solo/small gang/roaming community around me bleed people for YEARS. and CCP have done sweet fuckall. infact they made it WORSE with no fatigue jumpbridges.. on fucking CITADEL grids. thank FUCK they fixed that but again they took so damn long it tightened the noose that much harder on roamers. (Sigh) god i hate being a bittervet, i miss hopping into a t1 cruiser and going out guns blazing with 0 fucks, whelping stupidly. and even when i die i'd get a brawl beforehand, so it was enjoyable. Now a loki would just decloak at 40k and blap me into hull, while a 130k BNI holds me down. theres just no fun in it anymore. keep up the good work my man, i just hope CCP listens while there still IS a community left that actually want to PVP.

[@DarkVeghetta]

This reminds me to try some hull tanking fits for my various ships - I tend to ignore that option. That said, I don't know if CCP has nerfed hull fits or not within these past two years - but I will certainly take a look for myself.

[@TheLink955]

Nice video! Hope they change something with hull tanked ships. Power creep is real

[@9999999201]

Hull tank is just a meme. You see the ship is hull tanked. you wait for the response fleet and kill response fleet. You stated these are bait.

[@stitchk2755]

As mentioned in the video, if you intend to brawl, you're going to have engage hull tank ships at which point their EHP will not allow you to kill them to disengage before getting overwhelmed by the blob. Which means you are just going to be running from fights the majority of the time because no one is going to want to brawl a BNI knowing its bait.

[@Hawkcelpa]

Hull drake is lolz for pvp

[@aleverettes2789]

Armor tank is strong enough because of 1600, trig ship line, guardians and stuff But shield buffer fits definitely needs a buff especially on BC and BS level, probably XL shield extender would help?

[@stitchk2755]

Well if XL modules were made, i'd prefer they stayed battleship specific. So 3200 plates and XL Extenders. Alternatively, just give battleships a role bonus to plates and extenders. I do agree than armor is generally stronger, so it doesn't really need much of anything, just more wanted to point out that if hull tanking is removed, certain ships should have their fitting looked at so they can fit a reasonable armor or shield tank without having to spend 1b isk on it.

[@tumeteusambraelle5077]

You are forgetting one thing with shield and armor tanking: they both have implants that add so much more to ehp. Also to top of that, they both have benefit of remote reps being very, very powerful. Shield tanking also has the additional benefit of passive regen, and especially passive regen rattle can be something your small gang is never able to kill. The fact is, that bait ships can be very hard to counter. I would also like to point out, that their dps rarely matters, and they can be build out from many, many different hull. Also, I would like to point out that hull tanked battleships are one of the few left which can be taken out solo against quite large fleet of smaller ships without getting volley'd off the sky. Nerfing hull tanking would hurt solo players even more, but would not affect THAT much baiting gangs. They still have plenty of other options to go, even if you remove one niche that is hull tanking. Normally I agree (at least to some degree) with your videos, but this one sounded more like a rant against baiting gangs and getting dropped by a blob than theorycrafting. Yes, getting dropped sucks, but there are only so many ways to deal with it.

[@stitchk2755]

I didn't forget these things. I showed an example in the video talking about implants. It takes a Navy megathron 5.5b+ isk to get the same EHP as a 550-650m hull tank fit. I'm all for hull tank having more EHP than shield/armor, but not at that price difference and ease of fitting+utility. This is a common theme for almost any ship fitting hull tank. As i've mentioned in the video, remote rep ability is a moot point because no one is fielding a hull tank fleet and expecting reps. They are used as heavy tackle against other brawlers. Basically a "if you get tackled by this, you are dead because you can't kill me before my blob comes". If you are kiting and you get pushed off by the blob, they can just warp to 1 of thousands of citadels in EVE to get a free repair and come right back out at full health. The cons do not outweigh the benefits of hull tanking anymore. Anyone who brawls in solo/small numbers runs into primarily hull tanked brawlers. Even my own fits are hull tanks because CCP has buffed them so much its stupid not to use them. But its boring when almost everything you fight is hull tanked. Takes a lot of creativity out of the game. Keep in mind, when i say nerf hull tanking, i'm not saying "remove" hull tanking. I'm saying bring down its maximum achievable value. Its out of balance now that shield and armor tanks have been nerfed and hull has been buffed multiple times now. Hull tanks can abyssal roll their resist modules, shield/armor tanks cannot abyssal roll resists (but they can abyssal roll buffer). Its very cheap to get an abyssal DCU compared to a "good" roll extender or plate. Hull tanks do not have any stacking penalties on their tank, shield/armor have stacking penalties on resistances.

[@tumeteusambraelle5077]

First of all, sorry for missing the point where you talk about implants. Lesson learned; do not watch videos while doing something else. I agree Navy Mega (and other Gallente ships) are very, very tanky when hull tanked. But this is partly because all Gallente ships have more hull hp than other races in the first places, and therefore more suitable for hull tanking, or bait tanking. It can be argued that they are very known hull tanked ships, because they can very efficiently be fit that way. But the same goes against other infamous bait ships, like Drakes and Prophecies for example. And especially Prophecy can achieve armor tank a bait BNI can never even hope to achieve, while at the same time benefiting of remote reps. I do not agree rr ability being a moot point. Heavy tacklers against brawlers can most definitely benefit from remote reps, and they are definitely getting them in bait situations. Not always, but if the baiting gang knows what they are doing, they might even have one cloaked on-grid. And there is not much you can do about them, either. Now, situation in big blue donut's space might be different than what we have at lowsec and NPC-null, so I cannot agree or disagree about brawling fleets being primarily hull tanked. That is just not the case in my group's experience. I very rarely see hull tanked ships (except kity BNI's), and I cannot remember if I have ever seen hull tanked gang. I partly agree with you about abyssal fits being easier and cheaper for hull tanks. But that is partly because of economics. And in my opinion, Eve would not lose much if we dumped abyssal modules altogether.

[@stitchk2755]

@@tumeteusambraelle5077 No problem. I'll try my best to format this because youtube doesn't really do good formatting. For Gallente having good hull tanks as part of their "flavor", yes i agree. But this circles back to the whole "reducing the maximum achievable EHP but not gutting it completely" statement i made. A nerf doesn't mean removal. A Navy Mega sitting at lets say 275k-300k EHP with the same fit as the current 450k EHP is in a better spot comparatively and still retains a high EHP value over alternatives, but not so much that other armor types can't even compete without spending 10x the cost in fitting. The BNI knocked down from 200k to around 150k with the same tank mods would also be fair. Comparing the BNI to the Drake and Prophecy, i think there are few things to remember comparing shield/armor to hull. 1. Shield tanks rely a lot on active cap modules. You can neut out a drake and turn off its hardeners, its tank drops considerably at that point. It also relies on mids for application. So short of fleet fights/fits, you aren't getting anywhere near the EHP of the BNI unless you completely use all your mids, rigs and lows (PDU's) on tank. Then you're left with something that still susceptible to neuts, slow and does very low dps 2. Armor tanks like the Prophecy to get close/comparable numbers to the BNI require double 1600 plates, T2 trimarks and normally active hardeners. So again, they can potentially be neuted out (but have more utility with a cap booster), but they are very slow. 873m/s with an MWD. They also can't generally fit any weapons in their weapon slots with the dual plate version, so its all drone dps (with no damage mods, max dmg drone flight is 315 dps). It also normally has to rely on a small cap booster due to fitting the dual 1600 plates to keep its hardeners up Now, when we compare the BNI to these, a max tank BNI gets to 200k. Its speed Is anywhere from 1350-1600 m/s (depending on the skirmish link you use). It has no active tanking mods, meaning its not susceptible to neuts (but can still fit a cap booster to keep tackle running), does 746 dps with no damage mods and can still fit the largest guns with both a medium and small set of drones (unlike the drake). The agility "penalty" for hull tank can be completely negated with a skirmish evasive link. Even if you opt out of the evasive link, its still only about a 1s second difference in align with a max hull tank, you can then opt in for rapid deployment and got 1600m/s cold and 2300 m/s heated. This doesn't even touch on the potential for it to drop a rig for a command rig to fit a 2nd link where it can fit both and goes down to "only" 168k EHP. Throw in snakes and you've got a 168k EHP BNI that can go 3k/s. Seems a bit much imo. I'll briefly touch on majority of null, as i don't want to write an even bigger novel, but nullsec uses hull tank BC's to MJD spam you. Gnosis being the most common, but BNI's also find uses pretty often. Then you have things like hull tanked bhaalgorns that MJD around with 40km webs and 200k+ EHP that are super cheap because of hull fitting and general hull cost. Hull tank geddon, praxis, domi's etc. There are a lot of hull tanks in most of nullsec response fleets. I'd like to see abyssal deleted too, but probably never going to happen. Since they aren't going to change, CCP needs to look at hull tanks better.

[@Rataxas88]

but why nerf the hull tank ? maybe buff the others ? its hard anyway to do solo

[@per2]

hull tank is broken

[@stitchk2755]

yes

[@DS-cp3fg]

Clearly it is broken. Hull tanking is broken.

[@johndehaan2764]

Simple solution. Change the cost and composition of the Blueprint. Make them heaps fking more expensive to manufacture. Bring cost/benefit ratio in balance with alternatives so that theory crafting and technical module compositions remain validated and meaningful.

[@TheGUARDIANOFFOR]

Its not about the ISK ..... learn the game CAREBEAR........Seriousli why all you carebears try to solve everything whit ISK ??? You know that veterans make 500-1B /h easi ???? We dont farm simply cause ISK have NO VALUE TO US .....

[@TheGUARDIANOFFOR]

DONT NEFT IT !!!! Im so loving killing hull tanks they are all so overconfident !!!!

[@10hockeyrocks10]

> hull tanking is useless waaaaah there are modules in the game that don't do anything!!! ccp please make hull tanks have a unique roll!! > hull tanking now fits niche of trading damage & ability to catch reps for large buffer tank waaaaah they are too easy to fit!!!! What do you want?

[@stitchk2755]

Iteration. There is a middle ground between your hyperbole. Not hard to see that their maximum achievable tank far exceeds what we could consider a reasonable balance. Hull tanks have been buffed several times (some indirect, other direct) since their rebalance. There are problem ships in the meta with hull tanking that could use attention, or they are going to continue to snowball until they're the main thing you're going to be fighting. You can still have a hull tank for the things you've mentioned, but they need to be brought back in line. A 200k EHP battlecruiser is not reasonable. A 400-450k EHP battleship with 85m in fitting is not reasonable. I fly hull tanked battleships because the alternatives are not worth it (they cost a considerable bit more or they don't have the same utility i can get with hull tanks). But i'm tired of mainly only fighting hull tanks and also flying my own hull tank fits. But until hull tanks are iterated on and other tanks or ships adjusted in fitting, i will most likely continue to fly hull tanks.