Theory of Mind - Uta Frith

Serious Science - serious-science.org
Developmental psychologist Uta Frith on autism, social interaction, and the difference between mentalizing and empathy
serious-science.org/theory-of-...

[@apotheticallyautistic73]

This is why we are more prone to abuse and manipulation. It makes us more vulnerable

[@trueblue2581]

It is a factor but social justice concepts also play a significant factor in this regard.

[@AlistairAVogan]

Who are ‘we’ and what is ‘this’?

[@Leena79]

I was recently diagnosed with Asperger's and I find the concept of theory of mind very confusing. Instead of not being able to instinctively figure out what other people are thinking, I usually come up with a million different versions of what they might be thinking, and I'm completely unable to figure out how to respond, because I don't know what they're after. I can tell a lie, but I most certainly don't like to, and I usually want to immediately make sure that my lie was a joke and I wasn't serious. I do have trouble knowing if other people are telling a lie, or saying something as a joke. I don't really like saying compliments unless I really think they're true, and I can be brutally honest, if I feel people are being stupid. But I feel, instead of not having a theory of mind, I have too much of it, and I get lost trying to find the correct answers.

[@flippert0]

Well, if you come up with a lot of versions what other _may_ think, you are actually not able to figure it out correctly _instinctively_ . And this is what your diagnosis says. It doesnt say that you are unable to think. A lot of lie detection for example doesn't have to do with semantic analysis, but with non-verbal communication.

[@OneLine122]

You are not supposed to know what people think, you are supposed to know what they want you to think, and act as if. It's accepting deception. It's about what the other wants, not about truth. It's what she means about "intuition". It's simply accepting the other are lying to you, or might, just like the GPS might. Even the theory of mind itself is a deception insofar it pretends to be about truth instead of falsehood. To be about caring instead of selfishness. But yes, if you want to actually know what people are really thinking, you will only come up with possibilities, because mind reading is impossible, just educated guesses which comes with experience.

[@Sethikinator]

@@OneLine122 I see what you are saying about theory of mind being described as something more concrete than what it really is. It sounds silly because I hadn't really thought about it until recently, but its in the name "THEORY" of mind, in every persons minds they have theories about the way that others think which enables them to make decisions around them. When someone is really bad at creating these theories I suppose thats where misunderstanding starts and they'd be labelled as not where they need to be developmentally

[@m.c.4458]

I may also be in the spectrum. All I see is a narcissistic ways, in which social etiquette and dominant cultures, promote deception for the sake of egocentricity. I don’t think is an ability, but a pathological trait.

[@paavohirn3728]

Wow! That was really well put! My experience is often pretty close to what you described.

[@myownnamemontoya6161]

Diagnosed with Autism at 77.. I spent my whole life with a question in my head. I have a genius level IQ and many gifts and talents., but I knew from the beginning of consciousness that I was not like others. Memories go back to infancy. I also am diagnosed with PTSD from infancy or possibly in utero. I was not blessed with parents.. missing father.. mother who did not want me and a lifetime of abuses of ever nature known to man... I am still suffering from abuse and trying to find a place in the world for me.. autistic artist and writer.. I have faith that an answer will come. I enjoyed you very much and I'm looking for any information that can help me with the blind spots. I would love to know others that are in my place.. I am not an old old...lol.. my heart and mind are still all of me.. all of the child and everything else... and no, I don't lie although normal people seem to not believe that. It's cuz they do it all the time.

[@paavohirn3728]

I'm happy knowing that you've found your tribe now. I learned about being on the spectrum about four years ago and was dg'd at 41. It's amazing reading all these comments in this video for example and connecting with them even if they're not all exactly the same as my experience. There still an overarching familiarity.

[@thisiszoe9135]

Sending love and hope you'll find the answers you're looking for

[@Neilgs]

I can very much relate, as I suffer from complex PTSD. In fact, there are many parallels in systems that are affected. I suggest reading, looking at magnificent presentations on this by Dr Allan Schore, kzbin.info/www/bejne/ooqaiYKrZd6cY6c , also very importantly as well Stephen Porges Polyvagal Theory.

[@koen8185]

@@paavohirn3728 Yes , friend from Finland , same here , I 'discovered' my autism at the age of 42 , finally diagnosed with Asperger in 2010 at 49 years old . Indeed very nice to be part of a family of like-minded people now , greetings from A'dam... 🖖

[@paavohirn3728]

@@koen8185 Hi Koen! Did we meet in Germany, France or Sweden all those years ago? I can't remember exactly.

[@alwellaufen584]

As far as I know, I'm very atypical when it comes to Autism, I have been recommended to study Psychology and Social Studies and such, due to the fact I have a knack for telling people's thoughts and distinguishing lies. Autism is an overarching term for changes in the Human mind, many of these changes impair certain areas and abilities in life, nonetheless some do allow for benefits, I remember that I refused to speak until I was 4, but then spoke in sentences, most likely I practiced when no one was listening. Many things in my life I rejected or evaded, until one day I just started doing them. It is rather fascinating that I have met many people with autism, yet no two people have ever been the same, some characteristics are similar, sometimes. Nonetheless the Mind is far more complex then a simple diagnosis can explain. I continue to follow developments in this community and have hopes of further developments thatbring more interesting discussion to the Table. :)

[@xmasyesreally]

Actually that's about half of all autistics.

[@paavohirn3728]

I've been interested in psychology, neuroscience, philosophy of mind etc forever so i have a pretty good understanding of human minds. I'm even highly skilled in certain kinds of social situations. It's difficult to describe exactly how but I'm aware I still have to process theory of mind matters differently from neurotypicals. I still don't quite understand how they do it 😀

[@rrose9161]

Same when it comes to identifying lies so you my not be as atypical as an autistic person as you said ( also interested in philosophy and psychology as well)

[@JamieHumeCreative]

Three years ago...did you study psychology? I hope so. We desperately need more Autistic people in Mental Health and research.

[@cheeesysandwich]

That's not really atypical in autism. There is a profile of autism where the person heavily observes and learns people's behavior, learns to be very self-aware, and becomes a master at spotting other people's emotions. Typically, autistic girls have this profile.

[@fattyfat-dp7lj]

for most of my life, I grew up not even trying to consider what other people might be thinking. I assumed that other people would always reject and hate me, but I feel like that assumption stems from a lack of theory of mind and a lack of a fundamental understanding about other people. Only now after a lot of introspection do I truly realize that everyone in my life who has ever disliked me did so because of the way I was presenting myself rudely or because they were having a bad day. Every single awkward interaction I had was because I was presenting myself strangely. I failed to understand what other people were thinking and feeling, which has led me to be so judgmental and form caricatures of real life human beings. I feel like autism and this lack of theory of mind has completely disabled my ability to connect with other people in the past, so now I’m hoping that I can stay more present in the moment and truly try to understand what others might be feeling about me and my actions. ok bye

[@trueblue2581]

If you have to act in a way just so people treat you well! Those people are toxic and not worth your energy! In terms of theory of mind you develop this skill largely from understanding people! The most common way is to listen to the stories of others. I recommend you also look into Damien Milton and double empathy. Love yourself! You're awesome!

[@sabinajoh]

I'd actually argue that you thinking people will reject you, is actually theory of mind :) You are thinking about what other people are thinking about you. Multiple studies have questioned the notion that autistic people lack theory of mind, since the studies that proposed this to begin with were very small and unable to be successfully replicated

[@trueblue2581]

@@sabinajoh Please don't confuse ACT branches of psychology with theory of mind. People with ASD do have theory of mind but It is not as affective in certain circumstances as showed by UTA even in the video. You mentioned the double empathy problem which is an important aspect to mention but it still does not cover intersectionalism of the various heterogeneity of people with ASD. But the fact is that listening and understanding the experiences of others helps anyone to develop better social skills in general. If you look at the works of many professors in ASD such as tony attwood you will understand how it is beneficial.

[@abbiebarker3593]

i have autism and i have to write an essay on theory of mind for my degree, this video really helped as obviously i struggle to understand the idea of theory of mind haha

[@MysteryGrey]

I always thought of myself as having integrity to not assume what someone means or is thinking. They have a mouth and that's what words are for, for them to explain themselves. I don't just assume. And if someone wants to tell me about how they think or feel, or about themselves, talk away, I want to hear it. I don't pry and be intrusive by asking personal questions. I can live without them telling me all kinds of things about themselves, but they ALWAYs dump their innermost secrets on me, sometimes right away. I always wondered why stranger's tell me their secrets. Little do they know that I already know their deepest insecurities if I've glanced into their eyes. The secrets they verbally tell me, I might repeat. But the mysteries I know by looking at their soul, I'll never divulge. If they're a narcissist, dark soul, I will do a reflection so the goo won't stick to me.

[@alhaah777]

Wonderful, professional explanation. Thank you.

[@Shoonam]

I think this has to do with attention problems. When I'm an observer, I can definitely theorize about why people are behaving how they are - I can focus better on nonverbal cues since I don't have to think about what l'm going to do or say. When I'm implicated in an interaction, I miss part of the signals. It's not an either you have it or you don't scenario. It's much more complex and varies between people on the spectrum.

[@paavohirn3728]

Well said! Sounds familiar.

[@lindaclairesartori]

Glad to see "disagreement", or differing opinion.

[@lindaclairesartori]

@@paavohirn3728 Do you know Gail Hirn? Of Madison, Wisconsin?

[@paavohirn3728]

@@lindaclairesartori No, I'm afraid not. Our family lives mostly in Finland, though the name comes from Germany via Finnish Swedes in my understanding.

[@koen8185]

Yes , because we áre observers , and not participators...

[@timmcdraw7568]

im autistic and I lie! I learned how to lie young, because I needed to in order to survive - small lies, lies about my feelings, my whereabouts, intentions, desires. I grew up in a deeply unstable, scary home. Now im 42 and I can still lie about those things- the "keeping the peace" kind of lies, which basically depends on my true self being hidden at all costs, and im still doing it to save my life, from a place of mistrust. However, if I were told I had to lie about a fact though, from my phone number to some historical fact, I find that EXTREMELY hard! The last time I lied about my phone number the only way I could do it was to write my real number out and painfully, hysterically even, switch one single number out for a random number, and even then my wife-at-the-time elbowed me and snapped "you need to be cool!" which is when I realized I was panicked and looking all over the room as if the lie police were going to come and get me.

[@foljs5858]

I guess one is "pretending/acting" whereas the other is actual "lying"

[@koen8185]

@@foljs5858 Exactly , I also call it 'acting' , the one thing I cannot do anymore is pretending to be attentive or showing interest , life is too short...

[@Timmerdetimmerdetim]

​@@foljs5858f so, then what is theory of mind?

[@foljs5858]

@@Timmerdetimmerdetim It's a cognitive science term about "the ability to infer and understand another's mental state (the beliefs, thoughts, intentions and feelings of another), and use this information to explain and predict human behavior" So basically it's about a person "having a theory about what goes on in another's mind", meaning being able when talking to them to understand what they must be feeling and thinking (at a basic level of course, as in, to intuitively get a rough idea of what they think/feel, not to ...read their thoughts like a medium)

[@Timmerdetimmerdetim]

@@foljs5858 But in relationship to your previous remark about acting and lying. both are? Neither? one or the other?

[@silkepauli1456]

This helped me a few years ago. Thanks

[@teve709]

Someone could very easily explain that theory of mind in humans is just a theory of egocentric self-interest giving us ability to form our own self in regard to other and pursue of own selfishness, it is a judgmental ability to differentiate "us" and "them" - in form of socially acceptable norms of behavior.

[@ivelinad4651]

Thank you, this video was a wonderful explanation and it was an absolute pleasure listening

[@teaartist6455]

It's also dangerous pseudoscience. psycnet.apa.org/fulltext/2019-75285-001.html

[@sbsman4998]

My greatest difficulty is arriving at Theory of Mind too early. A person might say something or avoid me then I may concoct a false reason clinging to it for dear life! Time to drag out that well used map again and figure it out, sigh.....

[@Timmerdetimmerdetim]

Exactly!

[@geralldus]

That was truly fascinating, thank you.

[@jacobrhodes7433]

This is amazing and I'll tell you why. These are things I've wrestled with for years. i.e. autism is not quite how it is described in old texts. I've defined it and people have said, oh no can't be autism, but it is.

[@timefortee]

Can you share what you defined it as?

[@msbutterflyz]

Really good, thank you Professor.

[@hufficag]

I never considered thinking about what other people know or believe or want or opinions and stuff. If they have it in their mind they should say it out loud - they have a mouth! But with cats it's obvious what they want - if one cat is out wandering the room and another cat meows pleadingly inside the cage - it's jealous of the freedom, it wants to get out. What's so not obvious about it to the rest of the people? If the top gate is opened in the cage and the cat looks down and hesitates to jump from such a height because it's scary and might hurt its feet, you don't just say "oh you don't want to go out? Fine" and close the door. You help the cat out of the cage. It's easy to have theory of mind with animals, why is it so rare? And it's hard to have theory of mind with people because what they think is convoluted, they're scheming, they're lying, they're prejudiced, there's no way to take all that into account.

[@barbramorgan4467]

Thank you

[@hannahbelle1044]

My son has ASD and he can lie and have an whole story behind it right away w details and all.

[@paavohirn3728]

Yeah. It certainly isn't as simple as inability lying.

[@rrose9161]

I'm autistic and I view my own mind like a chaotic storm of everything which forces me to limit how expressive I am because if I actually expressed my thoughts and feelings I would appear deranged and unstable. Nerotypicals are so lucky that they don't have to process all of the information they receive from the world consciously and can ignore personal responsibility.

[@ogzombiebreakfast]

I have to say this is equal parts infuriating and fascinating. I'm angry because what she is describing as "mentalizing" is essentially mind-reading, but at the same time it definitely isn't. It's assuming that you are able to read someone's thoughts based on their gestures and expressions. It's exactly this type of automatic, unconscious prejudice that causes so many problems for people. That is what makes it fascinating - she/they is/are on to something. But it isn't literal mind-reading, it is really just a pattern of guessing what other people are thinking by assuming that they must fit your stereotype of what normal thinking should be. And the reason it works for NTs is that it only creates problems when someone's thinking deviates from the norm. It's unfair, but it's true, I think.

[@tickledcynic9]

infuriating/fascinating describes my reaction too. Just like another video where she basically talks about 'curing' autism without quite saying so. Hope she gets 'well' so i don't have to. Shame.

[@timefortee]

It's not only NTs who do it, the gifted do it much more (and better) than NTs and we are neuroatypical.

[@thelojay]

I scored “

[@fromafricaicame5909]

Can you link to the theory of mind test you used?

[@Waxcoat]

I'm also bad in TOM.

[@MaricaAmbrosius]

I don't believe it. I have this ability with other autistics. NTs only have ToM with other NTs.

[@elizabethowen8559]

That’s what I’ve always thought

[@KerryLynn-qr5ju]

That’s my thought as well. It’s almost telepathy-like with other autistics.

[@timefortee]

Interesting! I'm not neurotypical but I intuitively and instinctively do what is described as "theory of mind" with them more than they do with me (or even between themselves). In short, I'm "reading" their minds, intentions, moods but they aren't.

[@KeskinCookin]

Here is the link for an article discussing Theory of Mind (ToM) and art: www.academia.edu/12914754/How_would_theory_of_mind_play_a_role_in_comprehending_art

[@DeepakKumar-ow1yx]

Having a lack of or delay in Theory of Mind can help a person with problem solving in a group context or not.

[@juliamosley]

Interesting idea, can you explain further?

[@spanixtanspanixtan8757]

I have just translated painstakingly into Spanish three videos by Uta Frith about autism and Theory of mind. However, this channel does not allow contributions. So, Have I wasted my time? Is this information intended just for English speakers? Will you send me a warning if I make a copy of your video in my channel just to be able to add the Spanish subtitles?. The whole issue is quite disappointing. Maybe I never get an answer from you; maybe my subtitles are never "revised" to see if the Spanish translation is faithful. I tried all the links you have, but found no way of communicating with you. Thank you in advance for your answer.

[@timefortee]

I feel bad for your wasted hard work! At least you have the content in written form now in Spanish.

[@spanixtanspanixtan8757]

@@timefortee Yes. A dissaponting result; a typical newcomer's case of high expectations: desire to help (and also a bit of vanity). But not a completely wasted effort. Just a few listeners who had benefited make worth it. Besides, I have drawn essential conclussions and know the world better. Thanks for your kind words. Your comment really helps. Little things have an unknown value and effect.

[@timefortee]

@@spanixtanspanixtan8757 Glad to know there was even 1 person to have gained more knowledge or (and?) wisdom because of your work. A little trigger for a big change in the future, like dominos falling. Also, I assume that you might be someone who inspires others with your perseverance and strong will.

[@spanixtanspanixtan8757]

@@timefortee Sorry to say you are wrong. I'm not perseverant, indeed I've quitted easily; stopped translating ,sharing content...Became more individualist , skeptic, stoic,...lost faith in.... more things.

[@timefortee]

@@spanixtanspanixtan8757 I meant in general, not as pertaining to the particular subject we were discussing. I'm used to seeing sloth and indifference in most people but I don't detect much of it in you (although I obviously don't know you beyond our exchange here). You give the impression of being loyal and reliable.

[@willtowin9996]

i will share my experience in brief , i have no intuitive understanding that others mental life is unique and different from mine , if i speak spontaneously i would say something as if iam talking to myself ! even writing this i do not factor people responses to it , i have to do it intentionally

[@juliamosley]

Been looking into/learning about 'Theory of Mind' and found myself here watching this. Here are some of my basic thoughts on this video... 1) How can one suspect a theory didn't exist? Even when a theory starts to exist (comes out into the knowledge arena), that doesn't mean it's necessarily a functional reality. It's the result of a person or group of people within an area of research thinking of a new way to describe something, which, therefore reinforces an opportunity for continual research for other academics to then go on to find their own, new creative way of presenting that idea and any future related ideas, and so on. She says it's not a theory, it's an intuition? If it's an intuition, an intuition that's so integral to humans interacting with each other, how would they come to suspect it didn't exist? Does she mean she suspected no-one would come up with such a term to describe a basic idea of what the mind is? It sounds a bit like dressing up intuition in pseudo-impressive language. We're given this confusing theory (it's confusing because it's attempting to complicate something simple) the gravitas of, I don't know, say, discovering the earth is round after years of thinking it was flat. 2) Why would people be wowed by a so-called 'theory of mind', that, simply put, is a phrase for thinking about the intentions, feelings and thoughts in people, by use of a specific collective term that's associated with the field of psychology? It reminds me of when a band has a great, memorable band name. It's great but it's a name, a label for what's already there. Same with 'Theory of Mind'. It's like they've just thought of a cool band name for the collective inside the brain. And there's even a support act (Mentalizing). This is all about words to me. Wordplay. Much of art, literature and music represents people and how they feel, think and behave, much of which prompts the mind to think about these things within itself and other minds. 'Theory of Mind' is in culture outside of psychology, only it doesn't assume an academic label in those contexts. Why is a fancy sounding theory being presented with such a sense of revere? 3) She says that 'theory of mind' is 'what we all have, us human beings' and then a few minutes later goes onto hypothesise that theory of mind is straight up 'missing' in Autistic people - what kind of message are we sending out here? I'd say that's a seriously problematic choice of wording. And she says something similar again later in the video 🤔. 4) The point about the biological basis: Yes, I agree, everything is made up of energy and matter - so, in the body, anything that goes on has a biological basis, unless the mind isn't in the body, ... well...that's a whole different debate... 5) Interesting point about 'contagion' idea in empathy. 6) On hearing the word 'Mentalizing', my mind makes a link to the 'mindfulness' concept of 'watching the thinker', as in, being able to observe one's own thoughts. That's all I got at the moment 🤗

[@foljs5858]

" It's the result of a person or group of people within an area of research thinking of a new way to describe something, which, therefore reinforces an opportunity for continual research for other academics to then go on to find their own, new creative way of presenting that idea and any future related ideas, and so on" That's a scientific theory. "Theory if mind" is not that kind of theory, it's just has "theory" in its name (somewhat a misnomer). It's called theory but it's not describing some work of people describe/explain something. The name refers the innate ability of humans (or NTs) to be able to tell intuitively what another person they are with might be thinking/feeling. So when you read "theory of mind" don't understand it as "a theory someone/some group created about the mind". But as "the innate human ability to guess (theorize) what someone else they talk to/are with are thinking".

[@foljs5858]

"3) She says that 'theory of mind' is 'what we all have, us human beings' and then a few minutes later goes onto hypothesise that theory of mind is straight up 'missing' in Autistic people - what kind of message are we sending out here? I'd say that's a seriously problematic choice of wording. " Yes, but understandable. When we speak of something we usually speak of the rule, not the exception. Like, one could say "humans have two legs". Well, what about some people born with a defect that only have one grown leg (or more, like in cojoined twins)? Or one can say "unlike moles, humans are capable to see through their eyes". Sure, blind people don't. But the norm is seeing.

[@foljs5858]

"4) The point about the biological basis: Yes, I agree, everything is made up of energy and matter - so, in the body, anything that goes on has a biological basis, unless the mind isn't in the body" well, a problem might be in the hardware (the body) or the software (the way we think, the thoughts and memories we have stored). In the latter case, the patterns of thought are still in the body in a sense (they're are about how our mind's neurons are connected), but it's not a body problem in the sense that the mind has issues with being smaller, inflamed, damaged, has issues with the neurons not working, etc. It's just that the "software" is loaded with crap. That's the difference between something like a psychological condition (e.g. an irrational fear due to some childhood trauma) and an actual mental condition like when the brain is underdeveloped or damaged.

[@juliamosley]

@@foljs5858 I understand what you are saying however I think that the particulars don't matter, the fact that the phrase has gained so much traction to enable justification of oppressive videos like this one means that there is something in the phrase or it's contextualisation that is not of true authentic credibility.

[@juliamosley]

@@foljs5858 I disagree. I don't believe it to be understandable in the context. If a person were a professor in the birth defects that you gave as an example, I would have thought they would be better versed in sensitively approaching the subject than Uta is in this video dealing with Theory of mind and Autism.

[@jfjjgfjgjgjgj]

I have a very high Ability of theory of mind. I can say I have 4 abilities and am able to read 100% of everyone that encounters me. I am able to track millisecond by millisecond to do this. I can say it does exist.

[@trabiccolo879]

Would not it be better if we understood well enough how they (humans?) behave, instead of how what possibly perhaps they are thinking?... I think John got his umbrella because he likes it very much, feels protected by it, and functions as hiking pole for him.. What about it?

[@loverainthunder]

Ha. He may also bash people with it or keep something hidden away in it.

[@aliad1]

I have no actual relations with an autistic person but this explanetion as a whole is magnificent and articulated very nicely. thanks

[@teaartist6455]

And wrong as well as based on a similar idea to the attempts to "scientifically" prove that black people aren't really people back in the colonial era. psycnet.apa.org/fulltext/2019-75285-001.html

[@beckerkorn1]

About 1-2% of people are autistic, so if you know more than 100 people, you probably know someone who is autistic ...

[@Linz0440]

@@teaartist6455 Glad I found your comment. When I heard the professor compare a 'normal' mind to an autistic one I had to check the date. Wow, this is recent stuff.

[@brosevs8140]

Wow wow wow Hit me different

[@Neilgs]

Regardless of her decades of work, she is entirely wrong with respect that many on the spectrum do not fundamentally (neurobiologically) lack Theory of Mind or mentalizing/conjecturing, reading the intent of others, but rather what is involved here is an over active limbic hypothalamus pituitary adrenal axis which takes that child's (or adult's) capacity to read and reflect upon others intent offline (i.e., prefrontal cortex/executive functioning involved in supposition/conjecturing). Once a child (or older) is able to down-regulate through co-regulation high sympathetic-adrenal arousal then that capacity (executive functioning with a quieted down sympathetic-adrenal limbic system) begins to significantly come back online. Simply, the biopsychosocial neural integration begins to appreciably occur.

[@sarahburroughsjoly4794]

She seems to have an underlying, almost, hatred of Autistic persons. She talks as if they are not human and need to be cured. She is horrible.

[@Timmerdetimmerdetim]

Where does lying about Santa fit in? I'm autistic and have a hard time navigating it. It was a shock to me as a kid but as a dad suddenly it's seems different, you know?

[@monicadahl7715]

My ASD son carry’s amp umbrella when he walks to the store even if there is only twenty percent chance of rain.

[@Danderman888]

Theory of mind is not intuition, at least as much as it is instinct, i.e. it requires less deep logical rationalisation. Whereas in autism, the lack of this instinct requires the subject to learn the same in a logical way by rationalising logically the information, connecting the parts logically, internalise the information, then use it intuitively.

[@drewdavidson663]

... empathy is projection and unrecognized reflection... What you're explaining is a socio-cultural phenomenon of convienient presumption of conventions. Mentalizing~Abstractualizing= Reification Fallacy

[@materialsgirl469]

Empathy is absolutely a form of emotional projection. Sometimes recognized (“it hurt when my mom died too” and you feel the pain together as a bonding activity); or unrecognized (as when my grandmother died when I was a child and imprinted on my young psyche a feeling of pain at the loss of human attachment. This is mother nature’s way of making us feel pain when we inflict it upon others. karma.

[@teaartist6455]

Hmmm, so autistic people= not human? Cute. Also, why don't you ask autistic people themselves instead of making guesses that are so, SO far off goal that I personally can't really decide wheather to laugh or cry? It's like you yourself can't imagine that we have reasons for doing things, oh no, reasons are for neurotypical people! For humans, remember? -Sincerely, a 30 year old autistic woman from Canada.

[@fredmuppet3077]

Yeah exactly ! How about looking into the reasons why NT people feel fine with non authenticity as the norm, making (rude in my opinion) presumptive judgements of other people (like what if your guess is so way off because why do we even presume they are NT and so wish to be socially lied to and skirt around the issue instead of saying honestly what they mean ?) Maybe it's NT people with the problem and their problem is too much bias and too much presumption !

[@teaartist6455]

Honestly, what bothers me most is the presumption that they _know_ what other people think when anyone that has even just tipped a toe into philosophy knows that this isn't the case. Actually, I'd like to believe that everyone is aware that their own idea of what others may be thinking is a helpful tool indeed, but not comparable to the own lived experience others actually have, however, that would be a very NT thing to do and idealistic at best. The take clues from the body language of other people and their own experience to build an idea of what other people may be thinking, then they _assume_ this is correct. They then forget that this is an assumption. The example of John and the umbrella is a perfect one. She _assumes_ that John thinks it'll be raining later, in fact she's so focused on that that in the way she builds that narrative she excludes all manner of other possibilities, like taking the umbrella back to a friend because you borrowed it. Or putting one in the car that you last time it started raining when you arrived home. Or wanting to trade it in at the shop they bought it from because it's broken. Simply being told that John takes an umbrella with him tells you very little about the situation and what he may do with it, only our dear lady here wants to _believe_ it's a very clear and obvious thing because she simply jumped to conclusions. And THAT is how you end up with NTs believing they know better what you think than you do yourself, which would certainly be a topic I'd be interested in exploring further mostly because this idea seems so utterly conceited when taken at face value. But you know, they probably don't mean to be narcissistic, it must simply be a defect. (Honestly, this may be slightly sarcastic but I'd really be interested in seeing some explanation behind that) Now, most of the time with NTs relating to other NTs, they aren't too far of for this Blindness of Assumption to be an issue. The problems start arising when they have to try to relate to and interact with autistic people and suddenly realize that their assumptions don't match up with reality. However, since they are in the majority they have the privilege of jumping to conclusions, of not having to check and double check their assumptions, they can simply claim about us what they wish to see as they so often do because actually trying to understand would require questioning your own beliefs and, as sad as it is to say, most NTs don't do that. I don't know if that is because they were never forced to or because they are just naturally on a sort of autopilot. In the end it comes down to us pretty much speaking different languages and one of us having the power and the arrogance (however grounded in their unfortunate neurology it may be) to define the other as "wrong". That's closely followed by the presumption that we're somehow _unable_ to lie, not that we generally dislike it. (And yes, while this post is generally serious I may have thrown in a bit of sarcasm and satire, because, really? The people I'm telling this to already know how fucking stupid that "expert" is and have an idea of why and the "expert" wouldn't listen anyways so I may as well not be quite as bored when talking with a wall.)

[@fredmuppet3077]

@@teaartist6455 exactly. The thing you said about making the presumption that they know what other people think when any psychologist will tell you we all think and relate differently, is exactly what I was trying to say but you explained it better. That's exactly what riles me the most too. It's like they bang on about equality without realising how biased/blinded/light switched off they actually are. Maybe their inner autist is just switched off /asleep /under a spell, metaphorical or otherwise, from "the establishment" so they're a bit like sleeping ? If that makes any sense ? Maybe the autistics are like the rainbow people who the maya spoke about / the crystal children who the healers and new agey types talk about / the awake to reality people come here to waken everyone else up and get the world straightened up to where the answer to "why is that person holding an umbrella" is universally understood to be "let's find out by asking him" ?

[@steynkeultjes4527]

@@teaartist6455 I love your comments, it explains your thoughts very well. 20 year old male with asperger's here. We're not saying that NT's are all narcissistic people, but they are automatically drawn to that way of thinking because of how their brain is wired. I have noticed a lot of negative effects because of wrong assumptions. Over the years, i came up with a way of assuming social situations to deal with my autism. But now I think it is just an overall better and more positive way of looking at people. Here it goes: When I am talking to someone, I try to come up with as many possible way's the other person is thinking, instead of just immediatly assuming one thing. Then I always go with the most positive one untill more evidence is gathered for negative outcoms. For example: A person doesn't look happy and says hurtful stuff to me. I just assume he/she is having a bad day, or he/she is mad at someone else. I don't get mad for no reason. This might seem very naïve, and it probably is a bit. But I am also a very realistic person. When the evidence says otherwise, I will follow that assumption. This method takes a lot of time and focus while communicating and it doesn't work in groups, but it is the best thing I could come up with. I am still refining. Overall, people with high functioning autism are patient people, always trying to conform to the wishes and need of others and thinking a lot before they act. They don't randomly assume what other people are thinking and we hate lying (It is a waste of time and energy). Aren't all people supposed to act that way?

[@teaartist6455]

@@steynkeultjes4527 It is naive. Maybe it'd be better to assume the best, as long as not counterindicated by safety concerns? In your example, thinking he's having a bad day if this doesn't happen constantly is in no way a risk to yourself, but in situations where there is a significant risk present, you should be more careful. I don't think it's smart to paint autistic people as angels who would never lie, be impatient, jump to conclusions and such either. That's just another way of saying "we're better than they are". "They" in this case are NTs, but really, the main difference I can see is who's got the power. (A good counter example may be that claiming that I'm X person was a bit of black humor for me personally because it's just so ridiculous that they actually seem to think that we have no concept of what other people can reasonably be expected to know. I debated it, but in the end, I put it in for my own amusement.) Not to mention "high functioning" is generally more about shoehorning people into boxes and in my experience all attempts to section up the spectrum into neat, easily understandable labels generally tends to hurt people on all sides. Those deemed "better" may be denied help they need, those deemed "worse" aren't considered human and it's only a matter of time or arbitrary sorting until you find yourself on the wrong side for your situation. Even non-speaking self advocates are suddenly "too high functioning" when they demand that autistic kids not be subjected to conversion therapy (ABA). It gets even better, now that you have declared some people of a minority better than others, you can turn them against each other by pointing at one part and declaring that while people that are "just" Aspergers/HFA/... may be fine and good and necessary, but those poor nonverbal people, people with learning disabilities, those that can't live alone, they really need this abuse/shouldn't be alive/shouldn't be able to make their own decisions... Once you got rid of them, rise and repeat. First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out- Because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out- Because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out- Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me-and there was no one left to speak for me. Aspie supremacy isn't going to end well, for anyone. In the end, drawing arbitrary lines even though people on both sides generally want the same and punching down on those you consider to be lesser is only going to weaken us. What annoys me is mostly the assumption (that's based on faulty science that makes the pseudoscience of the colonial period look good, btw) that anyone who doesn't act or think like them. psycnet.apa.org/fulltext/2019-75285-001.html

[@Youtubereachjonathan]

Does this mean the autistic person can’t be vindictive. Good stuff Uta and Lorna.

[@teaartist6455]

This means the idea they have of autistic people is utter bullshit, which would be amusing if it wasn't so depressing. Basically the reality if more that people with autism have huge problems reading NTs (they read other autists just fine) so they are working with far less information to actually figure otu what other people might want, think and such, add to that the fact in some aspects autistic and allistic people just think very differently to the point where something one group does seems absurd to another and you've got even more potential for "language barriers", sot o speak.

[@timefortee]

@@teaartist6455 I'm curious, why do you say the autistics have less info to work with?

[@teaartist6455]

@@timefortee Because for autistic people, figuring out the way neurotypical (NT) people communicate, especially facial expressions and for some people tone of voice, isn't something we learn intuitively or easily. Very few of us ever get good enough at it to do it nearly as well as most NTs, at least in real time (pictures are a little different since you can take your time picking out the clues). Even for those that do get very good at it, it is still fairly exhausting over a long time period in a way that could be comparable to solving challenging maths. That means that most of us don't get all the hints NTs get about the other persons opinions and intentions because we can't read NTs as easily. To make a slightly silly comparison, think of how you may not be able to understand what a cat wants from you or why it reacts the way it does, but with time you may be able to learn to understand it's body language more, but you'll never be as good at it as other cats are and thus may still at times misinterpret cats. (I really hope this was understandable to you.)

[@timefortee]

@@teaartist6455 Thank you, that is some info to ponder for me.

[@niklasnollenburg1995]

@@teaartist6455 What do you think is the biggest problem autistic people have?

[@JamieHumeCreative]

Theory of MInd is bunkum. We now have the Double Empathy paper to speak to our deep empathetic ability. We simply do not see how NTs. get upset over certain types of things and instead of getting drawn into it, we just quietly try to support them. Not the same thing as not having empathy or sympathy. I just find we get hurt over different things. Most of which is hurts due to NT behaviours.

[@trueblue2581]

You mean Damian Milton's Double Empathy problem. How ASD people struggle understanding NT people and NT people struggle to understand ASD people. But NT people view themselves as superior and believe that they know better than ASD people and that ASD people are the problem and must live their lives to become NT people in order to be accepted in society. Which is essentially theory of mind but with aspects of transference and social justice whilst also voicing the issues of ASD people. Yeah I get what you mean, especially cause a significant amount of people with ASD see these videos and get upset at the main take aways being generalization of people with ASD rather than just respecting people with ASD.

[@FaithNoMore223]

They should be researching people with bpd very empathetic and good liars.

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[@fionabyrne7144]

The way Dr Frith is speaking is suggesting that autistic people are not human. She says theory of mind is essential part of being human, and then that is lacking in autistic people. This is highly problematic. Additionally, this has been disproved by Damien Milton with the double empathy problem. The double empathy problem suggests that it is simply that people have difficultly intuitively empathising outside of their neurotype. Autistic people can intuitively understand the mental states of autistic people. Similarly, understanding the autistic sensory experience is not innate for neurotypical people.

[@fionabyrne7144]

This is not serious science, it is serious ableist bs.

[@AlexN0704]

I think you are searching for an attack on her words, she basically means understanding what the other is feeling is part of humanity, yes, autistic ppl lack that skill but in no way she implies they cease to be humans because of it, walking and running are part of being human too, but that doesnt make someone in a wheelchair less human lol.

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[@beegeessongs17]

Yes they do tell lies but they not aware of it

[@hannahbelle1044]

my son is aware when he lies.. once he caught there a whole story with it

[@Waxcoat]

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[@Jorge-xf9gs]

This is not supported by the evidence. People who do not keep up with the scientific consensus should have their licenses revoked.

[@hermanfeeblebottom5002]

Yes, it is.

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