Night Lords Part 2 - Getting Started in Horus Heresy

[@Jackalos1]

I swear if they just made an FAQ with a single sentence "All troops automatically gain the line sub-type" suddenly so much gets fixed.

[@killakhan7863]

Yeah I hardly see the concern especially with vanilla units nobody is quitting because a 10 man tactical support squad got line and if Crimson Paladins with a potential 3+ feel no pain is allowed to gain line then I think all other troops with a rite of war should be as well

[@knightsolaire3781]

For anyone watching the video I think there's a deeper conversation that could be had about A Talent for Muder you guys who are starting out should learn once you've gotten stuck in to the system a bit more. That conversation revolving around how A Talent for Murder interacts with target priority across your army. Generally you will want more bodies in a unit to outnumber your foe, but this isn't the hard rule when conducting unit selection for an army. When you pick a unit you should consider what role it will be doing, and whether the loadout it will have will benefit from a Talent for Murder or if it even needs to benefit. For example, a melee contemptor dreadnought will solve the legions lack of anti elite specific units. However, it will never benefit from A Talent for Murder in melee because it only counts as one model. This is still fine for you, because the dreadnought will still wound on 2's with or without the +1 in most cases. The big point I want to bring up is the Javelin Squadron in the fast attack slot. This unit can only get up to 3 models and will never outnumber a vehicle. Since it can take a lot of weapons that would love +1 to armour penetration rolls, you might see this as a huge loss of potential. However, this unit still has a fantastic role in a Night Lord army because it can still easily outnumber dreadnoughts while taking weapons like the multi melta which will wound contemptors on 2's with a Talent for murder and the lascannon which will wound leviathans on 2's with A Talent for Murder. It can also fulfill an anti terminator role as both those mentioned weapons instant death termies and don't need a +1 to wound. It will do this without competing for the only heavy support slot in a Terror Assault Rite of War. It can also perform a flanking assault. This is extremely important due to the pinning range being only 6" on a flanking assault, but the range of fear being 12". This means you can use the extra movement of the javelins to pin units outside of pin range of your flanking infantry, but inside their fear range. Of course this is just a getting started video, but I encourage you to try and consider this sort of stuff as you spend more time in 2.0. Good luck and Ave Dominus Nox!

[@razalfraz6618]

I know this is 5 months old but I would really like to hear more from you on this topic I find this really interesting since most other legions can be reduced to s8 ap2 and or terminator spam

[@knightsolaire3781]

@@razalfraz6618 Ok, the topic is a little difficult to discuss via comment section, but I'll do my best. Maybe I'll make a video on it xD. Anyways, the best general thoughts I can give you can be broken down into three points. Point 1: When considering AtfM interactions with a unit, you should first be asking yourself "What role am I trying to fill with this unit." This can decide whether you pursue trying to find a direct synergy with your unit and AtfM, or trying to get more out of point 3 (see below). An example would be trying to fill the role of anti tank. A unit that does this well would be something like the Rapier carrier with laser destroyer upgrade as it being bulky 4 makes a unit of 3 count as 18 models when you include the gunners. This will allow you to outnumber single vehicles who only count as 10 and make your rapiers shoot 6 shots that are effective s10 with AtfM and have ordinance and ap 1. For point 2, you should consider wherher the role you n eed to fill is so important that you should instead take weapons to mitigate the loss of AtfM instead of going without. Consider the Leviathan Dreadnought with one brutal fist and the the other a armourbane fist. The roles here you'd be trying to fill are anti elite (brutal fist) tank for team (t8 2+sv 5++ 7 wounds), and AT (armourbane fist). In this case you're not getting AtfM with the Leviathan, but you are fulfilling 3 roles at once and you don't need +1 to wound vs elites, and the armourbane fist is already coming in at s12 making AtfM redundant. Finally point 3: You should ask yourself why you're taking a unit if you have no way to make it perform better than if it were taken in a different legion. For example, I rarely take units with bolt or auto weapons because of how the IF trait would make a yellow version of the marine better. However, if I can find a way to do it better as a NL, I will consider taking the unit. For example, Imperial fist tactical marines are more accurate than other legion tactical marines. However, as a NL I can enforce night fighting and take a 20 man squad with an apothecary. Now both units will hit the same (if the tactical squad gets night vision from curze or prey sight), but only the NL unit denies shrouded saves and has +1 to wound. Let's bring it all together. In an example. All my friends begin tailoring their units against me by taking night vision with masters of signal and Armistos and putting them in heavy supports squads to blast me from range. (Point 1) I'm looking to fill the role of ranged anti infantry that doesn't get instant deathed by lascannons and krak missiles. I think about it and say, I could respond with a proteus speeders squadron with volkite calivers. Although I lose AtfM (Point 2) the Calivers are s6 and will wound on 2's vs the heavy supps. The speeders are t5 and won't be ID'd by lascannons or krak missiles on a return fire. (Point 3) I like to take Konrad, and he gives them night vision for free. This means I now have a unit that doesn't stress my heavy support slot in Terror Assault and has night vision which is very hard to put on the unit in other legions. Therefore, I have made a unit that no other legion can do better than me point for point. I made a thoughtful judgement about whether I needed AtfM on them or not, and since I didn't I found other ways to make them synergize with my legion. I hope you found that informative.

[@fabricatorgeneralcaz534]

Great videos, definitely going to be putting together a Night Lords army for my first HH army and this video was helpful.

[@manofthewest5395]

The legion specific weapons are expensive beyond the point of reason on most models. 20 points for one chainglaive because you have to buy a power weapon first and then buy the glaive upgrade.

[@josephskiles]

At least 30k has rules for them, for some reason after 10k years later the tech seems to be lost.

[@TheOuterCircle]

They are prohibitively expensive, yes, but you buy them on units that already have power weapons, such as terminators, or upgrade special units to them, you don't just buy them for regular guys.

[@josephskiles]

@@TheOuterCircle that makes sense lore wise as it was a weapon of the top ranks like captains

[@mrdelaney4440]

I'm taking chain glaives on all my tac sergeants, thinking of adding apothecary's to each squad and running them in rhino's to capture objectives.

[@sinenomine7115]

If anyone is curious, one way to make Terror Assault significantly more powerful is to ally with a Death Guard detachment running The Reaping. Since it makes Heavy Support squads Troops, that can offset the Terror Assault restriction on heavy firepower. Plus it also means more Rad Grenades, so anyone with Chainglaives will appreciate it too.

[@7tunk]

Finally my legion. Ave dominus nox.

[@sylntghost007]

Thanks so much.really love your content.

[@Alex-yg5uh]

Swift blade Row CAN take consuls, it's still pretty shit though. Outnumbering also works for shooting in the LA rules.

[@jiffah]

Cavalry type should have the bulky rule built-in and the antigrav subtype as well and be cumulative so that a jetbike is bulky (3) and a combat bike bulky (2). Also, I do believe you can take consuls in the bike gang, just not the ones who cannot take bikes. That leaves you with: Librarian, Esoterist, Champion, Chaplain, you can take a Herald or a Primus Medicae and surprisingly a Siege Breaker (these rules do need another go at it.) So you could technically take a praetor on bike with retinue on bike and then 4 heralds to join 4 units of outriders and you would have 5 scoring units on bikes.

[@nightingale4632]

I feel like a lot of these rites of war could become playable, if their "troops" choices, became line.

[@BigBossFatMoss]

The Night Vision on the Raptors prevents the -1 LD debuff. And I think Terror Squads with rotors stack up pretty favorably against a similarly kitted Support Squad

[@szasstam5131]

Thank you, been waiting to make a decisive decision till I get a look at a true veterans opinion like yourself.

[@guillaumezwart7738]

Thx is long time I looked at ^^ really good video:)

[@manofthewest5395]

Night Lords' big weakness is their garbage terminators.

[@Urunian]

Yes yes yes thanks Macca been waiting for this one

[@highmarshalbalian680]

My Legion! Thank You!

[@guillaumezwart7738]

I like the "certified strong unit"

[@Azurios]

Swift Blade: The Centurions are allowed to take Consul-Upgrades.

[@TheOuterCircle]

Cool, and how many can take bikes? Maybe Master of Signals, Librarian, Primus Medicae? Still not a great range.

[@Azurios]

@@TheOuterCircle Just pointing out a mistake. That was not meant to be a "that rite of war is rly good post". I think your assessment is correct. Swift Blade is not a good rite of war. There is probably just 1 person out there, that wants to play biker gang night lords.

[@TheOuterCircle]

@@Azurios oh I know, I guess the Herald is actually a viable choice.

[@Jackalos1]

@@TheOuterCircle No rules stopping you have multiple heralds either... "This is the legion standard" "No, mine is the legion standard"

[@spenson]

Life tends to get in the way of work. Even with that I think you're producing good videos at an amazing rate. Did they clarify somewhere that A Talent For Murder doesn't work if you outnumber the enemy with a shooting attack?

[@ollzy6663]

It's really annoying how close they were to getting things perfect but just messed it up with details. Ultimately the legion traits steer you towards a very specific list: 20 man tacticals, apothecary and some rotor cannons/nemesis bolters to pin and some long range AT to take advantage of night fighting. They make a specialised bike rite of war... but forget to give you a reason to actually want to take bikes. They make a specialised terror rite of war... but forget to give you a reason to want to take terror squads (outside of rotor cannons). At the very least they need to update it to give them line, otherwise you're taking the TA rite of war to use night fighting and nothing else.

[@josephskiles]

How powerful are the praetors with jumppacks in 30k? I'm still sal9⁹y about losing my favorite unit, and it's looking more like I'm gonna switch to 30k

[@TheOuterCircle]

Better than bikes, generally.

[@josephskiles]

@@TheOuterCircle thanks for answering! So basically can you make them into the equivalent of a slam captain? I already have a lot of FW stuff like Sev, the night raptors, the contenkers, and both of the dreads so embracing 30k over 40 just make sense.

[@Balevolt]

Behold, the reason we need a FAQ Bikes

[@ignitedxblaze]

Its sad how hard they gutted the bikes, meanwhile they gave a bulky weight for contemptors... because they dont see enough contemptors on the table?

[@TheOuterCircle]

Bikes and speeders. I mean a Javelin counts as 1 infantry model, so a single jump pack outnumbers it.

[@ignitedxblaze]

@@TheOuterCircle yup, it sucks

[@gadzilla6664]

Contemptors don't have Bulky and they aren't Vehicles. They count as 1 model, as do all other dreadnoughts.

[@ignitedxblaze]

@@gadzilla6664 kept forgetting them not being vehicles

[@knightsolaire3781]

@@TheOuterCircle Don't discount the Javelin! Its squadron can still outnumber dreadnoughts!

[@gadzilla6664]

Correction on A Talent For Murder: The "Outnumbering" clause counts for both melee AND shooting attacks. Take those tanks in squadrons guys.

[@TheOuterCircle]

I did mention shooting.

[@gadzilla6664]

@@TheOuterCircle My apologies for the nitpick, but your text for A Talent For Murder says: "-When shooting at a pinned or falling back enemy, or attacking an enemy who is outnumbered in close combat, gain +1 to your to-wound and armour penetration rolls." That at least makes it sound like the outnumbering clause only applies in melee, and not for shooting attacks.

[@TheOuterCircle]

@@gadzilla6664 fair call!

[@Mickem91]

@@TheOuterCircle What is your opinion on whether if you are a Spartan shooting a squad, does your vehicle count as 10 for the purpose of outnumbering?

[@wizard0313]

Correction on their legion rule- you have it as +1 to wound and armor penetration rolls, while it's either +1 to wound or to armor penetration rolls

[@TheVirtue01]

Technically you’re right. But there’s nothing in the game which has both a toughness and an armour value…

[@wizard0313]

@@TheVirtue01 Not if you're me and you got it confused with armor piercing

[@TheVirtue01]

@@wizard0313 ah fair enough 👍🏼

[@Balevolt]

Terror Squads with Volkites are scary good, and they already have pistol/ chainsword, they have precision strike not shot.

[@ollzy6663]

They should be but point for point you're almost certainly better just taking 20 man squads of tacticals with bayonets, an apothecary and one or two squads of rotor cannon terror squads as support to pin. Especially when you consider they took line away from the terror squads for the rite of war. Recon squads can act as an enabler to make the terror squads more viable but it feels a little redundant when tacticals are just so good with A talent for murder. Whilst the legion rules themselves are fluffy and strong I feel they slightly steer you away from taking the fluffy unit choices. I'll still take volkite for the flavour but in a competitive game they would probably be left on the shelf.

[@warhounds]

wouldnt 5 warlords with flaymaster trait be scary especially if you have 5 outrider squads with meltaguns since they are counting as troops? yes it is a lot of points but that army would wipe out a infantry smooth as butter

[@Connordaboss45]

They have to use jadhek clanlord command trait

[@joshuaginn792]

IMO the only legion that a Sicrian Punisher with all HBs works in.

[@combatwombat2134]

Not Iron Warriors with shrapnel rounds?

[@meanmachine6328]

I want to make a nightlords jetbike seer council (4 librarians and preator on jetbikes). share the wounds around then use the psychic power to let every model try to heal a wound make them have str9 force weapons and t5 attached them to a biker unit to absorb the wounds you don't want on you seer council I never take tactical squad scoring units in either of the night lord rites of war. your points are much better spent on 2 reconnaissance line squads with sniper rifles for pinning terror squads are best armed with rotor Cannons for pinning take a squad of 10 with 4-5 rotor cannons. remember in their rite of war your rotor cannons can be -3 leadership pinning (night fight, fear, shell shock) terror squads have 3 attacks base upto 5 attacks on charge with preffered enemy infantry I dont care about raptors having night vision because I always take curze, curze giving all units night vision and bloody murder makes up his points a lot and curze is amazing at taking out elite infantry or dreadnoughts I run curze up the board turn 1 to join a terror squad near to the enemy and make the most of his fear 3. now rotor cannon terror squads are -5 leadership pinning test and you didn't mention how good rapiers are with the army rule, take 2 rapier lasers and that is a 12 model unit for +1 to wound/armour pen pinning and bulky is what all night lords players should focus on to make the most of the army hope all this helps my fellow night lords players

[@kurnou5]

Night Raptors ARE 2 wound models.

[@jamespetersson23]

Great write up, what are you using on your terror squads for the other 5-6 marines? Volkites or close combat load outs? or just bolters and save the points while relying on the pinning?

[@meanmachine6328]

@@jamespetersson23 I just keep the other 5 at base points. They still have lots of attacks with shred and preffered enemy. You want to put wounds on the basic ones Their main job is to infiltrate in and pin turn 1. I like curze to run up 20" turn 1 and join them.

[@davidbaines256]

does the outnumbered not also apply to the shooting not just in CC

[@knightsolaire3781]

It applies in shooting

[@Connordaboss45]

When can we expect a 2 hour rant on white scars?

[@TheOuterCircle]

You won't get one, I like them, it's a constant soft-buff and it does work, it's just not as good as legions like this.

[@Connordaboss45]

@@TheOuterCircle disappointing but understandable

[@Skringly]

@@TheOuterCircle I actually agree with you. I wonder if a lot of people who throw shade at the white scars are mostly doing so indirectly because the typically associated WS units like bikes got nerfed.

[@meanmachine6328]

at last 😊

[@sagacity1071]

More rites that dont understand line matters... sadness

[@kaiparkin2194]

Part 2 for imperial fists?

[@TheOuterCircle]

It's uploaded, but live for patrons first, I may drop it in an hour or so.

[@kaiparkin2194]

@@TheOuterCircle great thank you

[@mikediamond1234]

Why the fuck are all troops not line