Vorthos vs Melvin - Deep Lore vs Mechanical Brilliance in Warhammer 40K

POORHAMMER MERCH! orchideight.com/collections/p...
Horde Mode Beta Documentation: tinyurl.com/5fs3jr44
Horde Mode Discord: / discord
On this week’s episode, Brad and Eric talk about Warhammer from the perspective of the player's aesthetic profiles: Vorthos and Mel. What parts of 40k appeal to your lore self, and what parts appeal to your mechanical side? What parts appeal to both and, more importantly, what parts fail miserably to please anyone? Don’t waste time, find out this and more by pressing play!
MENTIONED THIS EPISODE:
Vorthos and Mel (2007): tinyurl.com/bdz8bjct
Vorthos and Mel (2015): tinyurl.com/5w36hmnu
Timmy, Johnny and Spike (2013): tinyurl.com/yndpz9vs
Drive to Work Podcast: tinyurl.com/mr2f4n6h
20 Years 20 Lessons: tinyurl.com/sa35hxcy
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 - Intro
00:48 - ATTENTION: Faulty Objective Markers (Update)
01:28 - Brad is a tsundere
02:32 - Remembering Player Psychographics
04:45 - Mel and Vorthos: Aesthetic Profiles
07:04 - Mel and Vorthos Definition
10:51 - Top-Down and Bottom-Up Design
14:45 - The Vorthos nature of Warhammer
17:36 - Vorthos and Mel in 40k
25:17 - Inside you there are two Space Wolves
30:30 - Designing for Vorthos and Mel (and failing)
38:42 - Final Thoughts and Outro
Show Links:
Website: poorhammer.libsyn.com/
Patreon: / solelysingleton
Brad’s Twitter: / drruler
Eric’s Twitter: / onekuosora
Licensed Music Used By This Program:
“Night Out” by LiQWYD, CC BY
“Thursday & Snow (Reprise)” by Blank & Kytt, CC BY
“First Class” by Peyruis, CC BY
“Funky Souls” by Amaria, CC BY
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[@mouthwide0pen]

Id like to raise the argument that Admech in 9th having loads of total excessively complicated nonsense going on mechanically, is at a meta level very lore integrated

[@Leviathan1494]

I miss 9th... Admech really felt like you were tweaking all these little gears and cogs to make your machine army run efficiently. Now it's just a lever with 2 positions.

[@lilith-punkpollock609]

I fully, genuinely agree. That was extremely fun and made games unique, and then they gutted the entire army identity in tenth to add simplicity the game already had. They were red guard

[@SenseiLlama]

I miss having decisions. Now as admech, I just hide on objectives and hope you don't have enough dmg to kill my spam.

[@bifman22]

100% Ad Mech were SO much fun last edition, everything but one model was viable and could do it's job. Giving skitarii a 2+ armor save wasn't even the worst of it, you could also make them ignore AP -1 and -2

[@runthatbackagain7126]

I learned how to play 40K on 9th AdMech and GSC whoever complains that 9th was too hard to understand is a bitch!!!!

[@quincykunz3481]

Here's an easy example that seperate the two: Vorthos loves the fact that arc-rifles are anti-vehicle and not anti monster, because electromagnetic gun should mess up technology. Melvin hates that monsters and vehicles are different things in the first place because that means some weapons just don't do thier job against tyrannids.

[@tomurashigaraki3010]

"laughs in crusher stampede army build"

[@airraid1266]

We went through this during the game Dawn of War 2 that the only Dreadnought/Wraithlord/Carnifex/Deff Dread stompy boi immune to melta bombs was the Carnifex, it was *painful* to deal with Carnis back then with Infantry, unaware with how it was on the table at the time.

[@wjpjr7854]

Recently had a game where everyone had to stop and realize that the highest toughness unit in our Ork player's list was the Beastboss on Squigosaur (T10), when that list had Ghaz (T6) and deffdreads, buggies, and planes all at T9. This highlighted how every player at the table was pretty Vorthos and confused and upset at this one number in a codex. Why does the naked man on a pig require higher-quality ordinance than the mega-armored iron man ork or the mech suits?

[@sethrinker9944]

They've treated Ghaz (among other Orks) so badly I simply can't play a good chunk of my Orks. They just feel so "wrong!"

[@Vaginshatain]

Big Squig

[@CMTechnica]

I don’t even like Orks but Ghaz at T6 just feels wrong on so many levels. Mildly tougher than a space marine? Why?

[@luckmyst3r986]

The Shark boy is funny and adorable

[@ace12342]

@@CMTechnica I feel like the mistake with Ghaz was having him lead meganobz. That seems to be why they gave him a 6 toughness. Offense wise he's very strong and can wound any datasheet on a 2+ but yeah his toughness just doesn't make sense.

[@hockeystar1300]

My time being the most annoyed about rules not matching lore is how when the Boarding actions game mode was announced as a T'au player I can not take a Coldstar Commander. The Coldstar suit was designed specifically for void warfare and boarding actions in the Farsight books.

[@CMTechnica]

Not a Tau player but that would piss me off. Like if Terminators couldn’t be used in boarding actions… when that’s literally what the biggest terminator based spin off was about

[@cipher4e]

Something else with Tau that annoys the crap out of me is how way of the short blade has always been treated. Farsight is specificly mentioned as training his subordinates in close quarters combat and with the exception of 9th it's always a better ranged buff because Tau arent allowed to melee

[@hockeystar1300]

@@cipher4e especially Commander BrightSWORD lol

[@burnin8able]

the most baffling and hilarious part of that is (I assume) you could take farsight himself, yeah? in his personal modified, upgraded coldstar suit? like, normal coldstar suits like the one farsight used in his first book to literally board a battle barge? nah, but farsight in his specific coldstar? A-OK.

[@cravinghibiscus7901]

I love that the no melee is also something that everything that plays against the t'au hates about them, they should definitely be weak in melee and the best shooting army.. I guess Kroot will come to the rescue?@@cipher4e

[@TheZeroChanel]

This really helped me understand my conflicting feelings on T'au in 10th. On Melvin side, I really dig the whole ftgg rule and how it makes the army more strategic, units working together, focus firing and not just 'shoot at whatever until everyone is dead'. On Vorthos side, however, It is really frustrating to look at 90% of 'deadly T'au guns' and realise how underwhelming their profiles are. Dealing damage by quantity and not quality of shots, really makes you feel like a slightly better imperial guard

[@kvass5165]

i fucking love your podcast, you guys and adeptus ridiculous are life fuel when i have nothing to do, y'all can't even comprehend how much more fun cleaning or cooking becomes once i have these bad boys in my headphones

[@keyanklupacs6333]

Comparing them to AR is probably such an ego boost to Brad and Eric since they're likely as big of fans as you are. 😂

[@gabrielfestini]

Duuuude are we living the same life? 😆 i am so glad to hear someone else watches/listen to both my favourite channels while cooking/doing stuff haha Take care mate ~

[@ajackass5950]

Damn right. That intro music gets me going like a kid watching cartoons

[@StephenLeaSheppard]

Funfact: There's a lore explanation for the rhino thing. In either Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work or the first Dawn of Fire novel (after a while these books sort of blend together in my mind) Cawl mentions that one of the reasons the Primaris technology (not the marines, but, like, all their new tanks and guns that he also designed) is so much better is he did not hobble himself by taking backwards compatibility with previous marine tech into account when designing it -- he made up all new, all-better tech for everything and used it exclusively. So even though they can fit inside, they can't interface with the new targeting or command-and-control elements. Basically he made up a new wifi standard and invented Apple's Lightning connector, and all the oldmarine stuff uses conventional wifi encoding and USB. Primaris Marines can't ride in rhinos because they can't connect to the wifi or even plug in manually.

[@KillerOrca]

So Cawl is Steve Jobs. That tracks

[@giraton1]

​@@KillerOrca oh fuck he totally is, pompus self engrandisement, big marketing shows and everything.

[@Feroce]

Honestly that feels like bottom up design. Something to justify getting rid of old marines from the lineup entirely.

[@screamingcactus1753]

@@giraton1 The only difference is that Cawl actually makes his own stuff

[@theshamurai32]

Brad: *wholesome thanks for our autistic shitposting* Us: "I don't know, I never thought I'd get this far."

[@theshamurai32]

​@games-wz7sz It's my disability too and has been joked about on the show before. I'm sorry if the joke hurt your feelings, but this seems a pretty selective time to be upset about it, given we're on a channel that has had similar jokes in its content.

[@Quaaludio]

@@games-wz7sz it really scares me how many people are killed by language every year.

[@theshamurai32]

@games-wz7sz So if you have problems with that content too, then legitimately, why are you even here? Christ on a cross, if something has content that offends your sensibilities, you can just leave dude. I can't believe I have to explain this, but every action online is a social contract and you can- at any point- revoke consent to engage and head out if you don't like it. You are the one in charge of what you do/see. But making a big deal out of it when you continue to be here too is just for attention and virtue signaling, let's be honest here. Do you, man. I wasted enough time on this discussion.

[@theshamurai32]

@@games-wz7sz Hold up. When in the actual fuck did I compare autistic people to animals?! You put that in there, chief. Fuckin hell, I'm starting to think you're just projecting.

[@sigurdjensen195]

Hold up. You can NOT equate autism jokes in modern day to jews (undesirables) during the holocaust.

[@arkslippyjunior7773]

Your T-sons argument hit exactly right with codex CSM and our system of relics, warlord traits, god marks and legions where you could make units that suited your legion perfectly and had a good use case in game along with having enough of a fun factor to encourage mixing it up And then we got hit with 10th and my beloved iron warriors have recently hit the shelf until we get a codex that enables play that isn't just a shitzlion chosen

[@Ralinor666]

What are you doing for episode 100? Smash or pass on every character model?

[@CMTechnica]

Pass on Angron Smash Asmodai

[@LordCrate-du8zm]

@@CMTechnica Nah man Asmodai would smash _YOU._ With his crozius. Over your head.

[@user-hf6vf5gc5n]

Do you think nurgle is a top or bottom?

[@LordCrate-du8zm]

@@user-hf6vf5gc5n I hate the fact that Great Unclean Ones canonically have done this

[@Ralinor666]

@@user-hf6vf5gc5n He's a top, but his followers are bottoms.

[@jkillyleagh953]

Panglacial Wurm left me in stitches lmao

[@DnBGolf]

I think you meant Plangay, plangla, pangay, pangshell... Wurm lol

[@Bluecho4]

I kept hoping Brad would just substitute "[THIS]" after a while. It's how the rules work behind the scenes, so it would be appropriate. Especially for a bottom-up design example.

[@Dan-bq1dz]

There's a whole lot of high melvin spikes that I would like to see spiked on a cross. Sincerely, relatively low melvin high vorthos timmy.

[@Dovorans]

Something that really stimulates the Melvin portion of my brain is when an effect has a good *downside* in addition to its benefit. It creates tradeoffs, choices, and opponent interactions. It's why I generally prefer shroud and ward over hexproof as mechanics.

[@mouthwide0pen]

melvins art being edited to have a 40k datasheet and a genestealer (?) codex is really funny to me

[@averygray3372]

and vorthos has the necron novels XD

[@garethlamb6923]

I can’t wait until we get an episode recorded after LVO, so we can hear the reaction to the monolith- sorry, piece of terrain, winning the game.

[@nathanl8622]

I appreciate you using the Clue character in Magic-themed cosplay as the stand-in for "mechanically interesting, not necessarily flavorful" player profile.

[@Calvin_Coolage]

Funny timing considering the latest Magic set too.

[@aidanmckeown4791]

Idea for a future episode, 40k tier list for ease to kitbash/convert armies with @petethewargamer as a guest host Could consider cost, skill, creative range

[@steventhompson7473]

Omfg I laughed so hard at Brad messing up panglacial wurm 😂😂😂

[@andrzejsugier]

As a designer by trade, having more design-centered episodes makes me think like I'm working *a bit* when I'm slacking off having an hour long painting break and listening to Poorhammer while working from home - so keep those coming!

[@crikeymiles]

This

[@llraijinll5753]

We need a serious, no joking life on the line discussion on the following ; -You open a restaurant in the warhammer universe, what food are you serving, what are called? And most importantly what models are your employees? Who are you serving!? Nurglings welcome! (rip hygiene rating) -Its the Olympic games!! Which models / characters / factions (spitballing) are winning which sports? Just spitballing, you guys could talk about the weather and I'd be invested! Love you guys! ❤

[@Yutopiso]

Depends how many orks are in the audience

[@L.Bomrek]

- serving artisanal tyranid to rouge traders and imperial nobles - Eldar would NAIL track and field

[@genos2939]

-a mobile caravan/pub that follows a Waaagh around to serve non-fungus beer, servers are some squats who are super proud of our beer brewing skills -olympic wrestling is dominated by the oiled up banana boys/custodes

[@Maladjester]

A bakery staffed by ratlings who are actually weapons dealers. On the one hand, the sticky buns are inexplicably delicious......

[@Grubnar]

"Its the Olympic games!!" I think you mean "Games Day!" Great idea, BTW!

[@bubbus5183]

The visual gag of putting the Genestealer cults codex in Melvin’s hand is excellent and I applaud whomever made such a visionary choice.

[@yunanada2264]

Plot twist, a full dragon army in AoS (at least when the v3 stormcast codex was released) is a very very spike type list. Being able to move your dragons 12" before the movement phase and still be able to move them later was really something to say the least

[@levb258]

A pretty fun episode, and an interesting perspective. Though with them coming from MtG, I feel like the fancy names obscure the fact that this is just a rehash of fluff vs. crunch, at least the way they are usually seen in 40k. If you just talked about how fluffy or crunchy things are, it would be more familiar to WH.

[@cpom5075]

Around 15:00 you guys mentioned LVO. Will we get an episode of you guys covering it? Would have love to see your guys reaction of why and how Necrons won the tournament.

[@thepoorhammerpodcast]

We talked about it yesterday, but Eric only watched some Saturday games and the big box cars moment from the finals and by the time we record and release an episode about it most people would have moved on from caring. It's the problem with our schedule. It's just a better topic for others to cover. I will say unrelated to the games: letting Joe cover the finals is a huge win over past years where the coverage for the last rounds would suddenly take a nose dive as WGL wasn't allowed to cover them.

[@theswarmsquad3606]

Yu-Gi-Oh straddles the Melvin-vorthos line great (for the most part (looking at you, Valmonica)): each different archetype has a very specific mechanic/game plan that fits the theming and aesthetic design of the cards! For example, the sushi archetype is one rice monster and a number of topping monsters, who can be searched with menus, and all of the boss monsters in the deck are made with different combinations of topping+rice.

[@Pseudoscorpion14]

Unfortunately, YGO fails at the secret third aesthetic profile of Me, who wants a game with a comprehensible UX.

[@theswarmsquad3606]

@@Pseudoscorpion14 eeeaaaahhh, you eventually learn the phrases to subconsciously blip out

[@joe_h_Redwire]

In the Timmy/Johny/Spike video I incorrectly said giving Knights backstories is Johny. It's actually almost all Vorthos. All of my Knights have names, both the pilot and machine. I know roughly what world type each of their home planets is. If I run them as chaos, I know why each of them fell, usually because another Knight tempted them. If you don't name your Knights, you ain't playing them rights!

[@RaptorianxdReviews]

See this makes me feel a lot better. Im not an idiot for bringing my Death Company heavy Blood Angels list and losing six times to my wife, im just digging into that Vorthos/Spike aspect of me! This was a really fun episode, Poorhammer always makes the day better

[@rhvette]

For two episodes in a row now, I am falling more in love with the Vindicator. Not because it’s based on actual tanks, but because it being based on actual tanks tilts out Brad worse than ketchup on a Chicago dog.

[@sweetboygreeny3855]

I like the vindicator because it has a shovel and a big gun. And it does not look over-the-top meched out. Good ol' reliable tank.

[@gremlinqueen]

Episodes like this are some of my favorites. It offers a perspective that I don't get as much from other 40K content creators.

[@weavelcow9596]

I love these episodes, also thanks for the podcast recommendation. I appreciate mentioning looking at the games in different perspectives. One of my problems with how some people act, when it comes to discussions, is I wish people would also compliment things that they thought the designers did well in addition to their criticism. I understand the idea of "they are designers, their job is to design things well. Why would I compliment them?" But I just think if you like the direction that someone, or a team, is moving in. Then praising the parts of their work that you enjoy is a great way to communicate what you would like to see more of in the future. That's just my little rant.

[@murphy7801]

Apparently Brad doesn't know Rhino's history. When the metal marine models where a thing it was a different much smaller rhino which couldn't fit those guys in 😂

[@pisquid9309]

It was the Spike, Timmy, and Johnny episode that got me into this show in the first place. I love these episodes, please don't stop!

[@SockimusPrime]

I feel like this is the episode that finally helped me wrap my head around Vorthos and Melvin - they were always a little tricky for me. I think detachments offer an interesting split between Vorthos and Melvin. When the Gladius Task Force was first announced, a lot of people complained that they “Didn’t want to play Ultramarines”. But there was a Melvin part of me that really liked the idea that you could run one detachment this week, and then run the same list in a different detachment the next, especially in Crusade. It may lose that fluffy aspect that every chapter has their own immutable unique rules, but it does a lot to make your army feel adaptable, willing to change their strategy to best meet the needs of a situation.

[@RanVor]

It's actually better this way, because SM chapters are supposed to be adaptable. They may have their preferences when it comes to tactics, but they still train in all types of warfare, because not every battlefield situation is suited for their favorite tricks. The Ultramarines simply specialize in being generalists.

[@dickkickem4238]

@28:30 That's not even the worst combo admech had in my opinion. (Tl;dr, skip to the "You then shoot at the Knight Paladin" part if you don't feel like me explaining the combo.) -you build your list as SkitVetCoh -you pick agrippina as your forgeworld you'd get an additional AP for everything at half range -you take exemplars eternity on a marshal for reroll wound and hit rolls of 1 aura -you then take a manipulus with the Artisans Holy Order paid point upgrade. Put into advanced part (this basically just means you can't do this turn one. Oh no.), and give a 20 man brick of skitarii rangers with the +1 strength to ranged attacks from Artisans and then also give them his galvanic field buff for the an additional point of AP and +6 inches to their ranged attacks. (this is all done during your command phase) -you then put yourself into the protector Doctrina Imperative to have your skitarii hitting on +2 (or have another marshal with the cantic thrallnet and just put that unit in protector; also, again, command phase) -You then position this 20 man ranger brick to shoot at an Imperial Knight Paladin within 18 inches with also the Marshal with his reroll aura near the 20 rangers. -you use the Binharic Offense strategem (from SkitVetCoh) on those 20 skitarii for 3 (yes, fucking 3) command points to give that unit +1 to wound on their ranged attacks -you then also use the Galvanic Volley fire stategem (2 command points) from the admech codex to turn that 20 man squads galvanic rifles from heavy 2 to rapid fire 2 You then shoot at the Knight Paladin -this give you 80 shots within 18 inches that hit on twos, rerolling ones, wounding on 4s (fucking 4s) rerolling 1s, with AP-3, and 1 damage. This ends up averaging about 77 hits, that turn into about 45 wounds, and 37 damage if the knight doesn't rotate ion shields. That's a dead fucking knight. (it's "only" 22 damage on average if it does rotate ion shields so the knight barely survives with 2 wounds remaining) This is a hot take, but as an admech player, I feel like my troops shouldn't be able to kill an imperial knight in 1 turn of shooting. However, I also feel like my troops should be able to kill 5 basic bitch intercessors in 1 turn of shooting. Am I being unreasonable for wanting my troops that I spent way to much money and time on to be somewhere between being way too good and actually useless? I can't help but feel there's a middle ground here. edit: a ranger squad in 10th will do on average about 1.5 damage to an intercessor normally but if you give them full hit rerolls from a marshal leading them and full wound rerolls from the transport, they do almost 4 damage. In other words, in the best case scenario buffs wise and rolling a little lucky, a skitarii ranger squad kills 2 normal ass space marines.

[@epicgamer1910]

I would love to see more of these!! They are pretty much my favorite things you guys have made. It's so interesting to learn about and such a different thing than what other 40k youtubers do.

[@MegamanZero410]

I heard this one didn’t do as well as you hoped, so I came back to watch it and enjoyed the topic! Keep doing what you guys enjoy!

[@paulbotelho3997]

This was one of my favorite episodes! Now I’m going to go look through your backlog for more episodes like this one!

[@MWJ1995]

You know it’s gonna be a good day when your favorite podcast puts up a new episode, look forward to watching/hearing this after work!!!

[@jonathanamsberry3971]

My faborite Melvin is the Burn Through Laser from Dropfleet Commander. Really the whole game system feels amazing and has a pretty strong Vorthos feel/capability. Its weird because I love the aspects of the game but have not played for a very long time.

[@Drthulhu]

Love this kind of topic. Very interesting and fun! Y’all are keeping me alive at work in the slow season

[@duneysands946]

These sorts of episodes are far and away my favorites. Never feel too bad about making another informative game design video :)

[@ProfessorOtakuD2]

"That doesn't cure the fact that it looks stupid" is a conversation I've had to have MANY a time.

[@benberkebile2773]

Im sad to hear this one didnt perform as well, I absolutely LOVE to see yalls game design sides come out, its such an interesting topic.

[@davydatwood3158]

I don't like Warhammer 40K as either a game or a setting, and yet am still listening to this podcast. :) (I do enjoy the visual aesthetic of many models, and *used* to play the game, so your point is still valid.) Vorthos vs Mel seems to be measuring many of the same values that Narativist/Simulationist/Gamist measures in role-playing games, just on a slightly different perspective. (Mel would seem to be the overlap between sim/gamist, but Corthos and Narativist seem to map together very well.) That sort of game design theory is super interesting to me, so I'm happy you did this episode.

[@cnelson1025]

Love this podcast. Thanks for getting me into this hobby making my days at work go by quicker!

[@EndsonLawrence]

As a seasoned MTG player, this was a nice way to frame these topics for 40k and really enjoyed your takes on the subject.

[@TheRealDeadRock]

It needs to be said that I think thhese episodes are my favorites too. I'm always fine with whatever you guys can eek out for the week, but I'm always hoping for these kinds of episodes. Do whatever makes the channel grow, but don't let the views disparity stop you guysa from fighting the good fight!

[@KanaKuroko]

This is super interesting to me, its always fun to analyze why we like or play certain things. I definitely have big aspects of Vorthos, lore is a driving force for why I pick my factions. Initially when I first got into 40k ages ago it was before Gorgon was fleshed out and I just made my own custom Hive Fleet that would have slotted in fine there with tons of poison all over the place. In fact most of the time when I find a faction I'm interested in I'll think up my own subfaction with its own quirks and then listbuild around that, its just the most fun way to engage for me. Think the only two times I haven't done that was my ancient nascent Necron list that was based around one dynasty or another and Space Marines. Salamanders are just the coolest thing to me already, so no need to make my own I suppose. I don't really lean into Mel all that much, unless it hits my really specific niche of gameplay. I LOVE debuffs and DoT style play, so that's always a hard draw no matter what. The whole plague and debilitating enemies thing got me super interested in Death Guard, when I never really cared about them as a faction before from their lore. It's why I'm kind of mixed on 10th edition the more I look into it. On the one hand detachments make it super easy to build a custom subfaction, and pick the rules that match it without being tied to the lore that subfaction might have had beforehand, but the lack of unit customization hurts the ability to really dig into the details and sell the theme or lore built up for that creation. It's like being able to take first step but then hitting a wall.

[@TheKicerK]

These types of episodes where you just ramble about stuff are my favorite. I always listen to them when I paint my models so I dont really mind if they're long either

[@CitrusyLimes]

Thank you all for teaching me about these concepts. Ive been thinking of making some kind of game, and learning about these concepts really helps with boss design and things like that

[@RigRogRig]

Tend to listen on audio rather than KZbin but thought, would pop on leave a comment. Love these style topics you guys do, reminds me of some of the extra credits stuff, getting a peek into game design decisions is super interesting and the way you guys explain it. Top notch 👍

[@sidemanelm]

This episode gave me so much to think about and I really appreciated it. I mostly engage in Warhammer through video games but I’m getting more into the lore (and hopefully hobbying soon!) in large part due to your podcast as well as Leutin’s videos being one of the only ways I can get to sleep reliably. this concept really helped me understand some of my annoyance when I’m playing Dawn of War and all the heroes are melee and the troops are ranged and I want the heroes to lead squads for lore reasons but I hate that they don’t get to melee as much for gameplay reasons.

[@xemnufromthemagicplanet1678]

I love these types of episodes so much

[@jaredezrin5002]

Even before the episode started I was debating sending a joke email complaining about the objective markers, really disguising a compliment. But then to hear that the community helped you have a better week was really nice Brad. Love the show, keep putting in the good work guys.

[@lordspork]

Love these types of episodes!

[@heiroftheredeemer2828]

I really love the in-depth dive into game mechanics and feel good stuff. It's very insightful and interesting

[@Alucard291]

Thank you for the episode. It is an interesting insight that I've not really explored too deeply as a general concept.

[@InTentsCity]

Usually I'm just a listener, but I gotta say, these are my favorite episodes to listen too. Having you guys deep dive into mechanics is such a treat, and you are able to dumb them down even for me, someone completely blind to the game and it's mechanics. I don't play, probably wont ever due to the price of time and materials, but I love hearing your breakdowns on all things Poorhammer. Thanks for bringing us this awesome content.

[@zaken1235]

Thanks for featuring my jank krieg models!

[@Asrtyulg]

Short but sweet episode this week. I loved it

[@BaronElBardo]

I need more episodes like this :0

[@sirsteadyeddie3478]

This was an amazing video. I am definitely VERY interested and excited about these kinds of topics! Keep em coming if other ppl feel the same ❤

[@daguynexdoor]

Great show. I really liked your takes on this topic and explaining that you can be Mel and vorthos at the same time.

[@TheVoxChannel]

Absolutely love this type of content!

[@halalpapi9450]

This was a super fun video to listen to while on the subway! Cant wait for the next one

[@Myder_Dragon]

Congrats on 99 episodes. Looking forward to what you have planned for e100

[@toomaskotkas4467]

That's was awesome! I fell asleep after about 12 minutes into the podcast even though I was listening it on x1.5 speed. Highly recommend if you have insomnia.

[@ovan2190]

I like this, you guys may ramble a bit but that's what makes these fun and understandable

[@fernandozavaletabustos205]

Thank you for another video!!

[@cristhianmlr]

I readed Deep Rich Lore Mechanics in the thumbnail

[@thepoorhammerpodcast]

Man, this is very close to skaven speech.

[@jman6822]

I like these more than the tier list cuz yall actually talk more and think about it more

[@7hird3ye]

This was interesting as hell. Thanks for this episode.

[@shaedeymamlas5496]

Panglacial + selvala is a genius combination that is unique in that it will get a judge to get your card, usually the wurm, and either tear it in half, toss it in a trashcan or slap you with it and be completely justified

[@Jake96000]

I like the informative podcasts where you dispense information

[@ANDELE3025]

The worst part with Crusher is that the solution to both is so simple: Tyranid Monster units at starting strength in synapse roll 3d6 when charging (or +2 move if boring and shooty supporty, either way some movement to represent initial burst of energy when freshly spawned/deployed for the hungry ones along with orders from the hivemind). Tyranid Monster units below starting strength have +1 to hit. (angry) Models in a Tyranid Monster unit gain "Damaged 1-5: Add 2 to the Attack characteristic of this models weapons." replacing any "Damaged" ability of the model. (death throes/feeding frenzy to regen or fulfill their role for the hive) If you want to be fancy, you could add a "enemy must allocate attacks/wounds to the model closest to attacking unit when attacking a tyranid monsters unit, even if a model has existing wounds/had attack allocations" style thing as strat or rule to have multiple 1-5 wounds left damaged monsters, for lore and as a reference joke to old editions by calling it "Shoot the big ones! The ones charging right at us!" but that feels like ripe for schenanigans.

[@liefericson6496]

When I first got into Magic Arena thanks to some friends, I remember seeing the archetype avatars and going "hey, I know those guys." Then I saw the unfamiliar Vorthos, thought "who's this chick in yellow? She seems lame." And then I carried on with my monoblack skeleton necromany deck with lots of antergy because I like skeletons and thinks it's cool and flavorful

[@Feroce]

It's been a long time since I played magic, but they have skeletons now? I always ran zombies in my monoblack necromancy deck, but skellymen are way cooler.

[@crikeymiles]

Loved this conversation

[@mitchellwarren73]

A new episode, the best birthday gift I could ask for

[@ebros5758]

Happy birthday!

[@annaleas2091]

ooh yah, Im definitely leaning towards top-down vorthos.....custom chapter = terror birds! budgies, cockatiels, cockatoos! need fast movers, flying things...BIRDS. FInd a theme, then make it work. LOL

[@logandaley1544]

I hadn’t heard of these terms before. I learned something new today.

[@ki3657]

I love these episodes! I'm not super into WH gameplay but I love the lore & models & design quirks. It's so fun to listen to. Would love more content like this.

[@connerymilne6466]

These are very interesting videos by all means do more!

[@dairewoods2544]

I absaloutly enjoy these type of episodes

[@Isaac-ze4fl]

The game design and psychology episodes are super-duper interesting and yall should do more

[@greenboi1549]

Very cool, very swag. Love episodes like this.

[@bryce7344]

Thank god the thumbnail got changed on this lmao

[@JoshTalLess]

Love this style of content

[@steveroyal6229]

I tried being a Vorthos in a semi serious tournament. Full destroyer cult (before codex), absolutely zero non-destroyer cult models on the field. I got wiped out by the same list (Necron lychguard death star unit pre codex) twice in a row. It wasn't fun to play against and I wasn't having fun with my list. So, I decided to just stick to playing as a Melvin. I am now bringing 100 necron warriors to the field because I find it funny and the last guy I played against got angry that warriors are busted (Codex). I don't know what I am, I just exist to anger people and play not guard. I will be playing this list in a team tournament with an admech player as my partner. It's the same thing in nearly every wargame I have ever played. Tried to build a lore friendly list for World Eaters in 30k, got smashed by a few dreads. I am now saving money to fill my WE list with angry robo paraplegics. HoS mortals, I'll look around to see what other warbands say what each unit is supposed to do. I got beat by trolls, I will now flood the board with arrow ladies with gimps. Am I a revenge player? Am I just salty that I can't into list building? Am I just insane? I don't know nor care. I've already spent $300 dollars on a Word Bearers list where it's nothing but evil plasma cannons. Who knows what it'll turn into when I get beat, maybe it'll be an alternate time line where the Word Bearers thought tanks were cool and Logar was a Christian nun.

[@Barkus365]

Hey guys - Just wanted to say I really liked this episode, it was a super interesting topic that I knew nothing about prior. Thanks : )

[@Acidicstudios]

I think it's cool that Brad has given us a new psychographic in the form of the Sturmtiger, which is like the Spike/Johnny hybrid but with just a tiny, micro-sized sprinkle of Timmy . ¯\(°uo)/¯

[@Nomnomnomnomie]

Yogscast Tom and Ben played horde mode adapted for age of sigmar!!!! Great video and noice game mode!

[@thepoorhammerpodcast]

I just watched this! lol Thanks for the heads up.

[@Nomnomnomnomie]

@@thepoorhammerpodcast noice noice, was great fun. Hope you enjoyed it as much as me.

[@quendi5557]

This was a fascinating video.

[@jimbusher5895]

Great episode - never played Magic but the pull of Lore and interesting games mechanics is something I definitely recognise

[@KendricStern]

Panglacial wurm is coming out of the ice, it pops out of nowhere when you dont expect it.

[@Maldraugedhen]

Vorthos and Melvin map very cleanly to the idea that rules, especially game rules, are a form of language. The 'Vorthos' element is the content of what is being described, while the 'Melvin' element is the structure of how that description is built. An author who works with fascinating concepts but misspells constantly or builds confusing scenes is high-Vorthos, low-Melvin, while a legal document is often intended to be high-Melvin, low-Vorthos. You can get into grey territory with poetry and with pure abstraction game rulesets, where elements like meter or clever interactions between game entities are both the structure and the message.

[@SAMcGarvey1]

New Deathwing Knights models vs new rules has Mel and Vor fighting to the death inside my soul

[@DrHideInet]

You may play Panglacial Wurm from your library.

[@tomanegiora1100]

As someone who only recently really got into Warhammer after tumbling across your channel, I adore hearing opinions from people who have been in the community for so long. I hadn't heard about psychographics before but I really enjoyed this insight into not only the tabletop/magic but how Vorthos/Mel can apply to other things. I would kill to hear about these aspects in the different armies or whatever else you guys put out.

[@MGPW]

I do like hearing about the terminology used in these things, whether it's community-wide (such as everyone knowing what a FNP save was shorthand for even in 8-9Ed) or specific to a group (such as Vorthos & Melvin in this case). It's absolutely entertaining.

[@ascendedraven1934]

My absolute favotrite magic card, and a good example of top down, is 'Deft Duelist' A 2/1 human with First Strike and Hexproof. The mechanics and lore if this card fuse together so perfectly and all without needing a wall of text, just three words and a stat block.