India-Pak espionage & dirty tricks in words of Adrian Levy, co-author of ‘Spy Games’. On ThePrintOTC

#ThePrintOTC
Adrian Levy, journalist and author, was our guest at ThePrint’s latest edition of Off The Cuff. In a conversation with Editor-in-Chief Shekhar Gupta, Levy spoke about the similarities and differences in India and Pakistan’s intelligence systems. Levy discussed his upcoming book, 'Spy Stories', based on India’s Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) and Pakistan’s Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) and pointed out how both India and Pakistan have used proxy warfare with remarkable success. He said the reason why ISI is seen as an organisation with more teeth than RAW is because India has always projected itself as benign and that has been the biggest success of the country’s intelligence.
Levy discussed how despite victories such as the 1971 Bangladesh war and the Kargil war of 1998, RAW lagged behind ISI, especially in finances, until 9/11. That gap, however, has reduced since then, he added.
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[@girishktyagi]

If North East, Punjab, Kashmir is silent and peaceful, we must thank the silent warriors of RAW and other security agencies. It is a brutal world out there so it is not easy to judge in words or actions. We must judge with the outcome.

[@Rancho12345]

Agreed! The unsung heroes

[@anilrohilla4379]

Kashmir Valley is peaceful? Probably in our media and news, not in reality.

[@Baluph]

One of the finest interviews ever. Adrian Levy's articulation is amazing. Not a word spoken extra. Concise, to the point and hard hiting.

[@jhendukhan4363]

@@DV-lh2ov 😂…I wonder how the OP feels about your “concise, to the point and hard hitting” comment.

[@mohammadahmadrocks]

Perhaps, more concise than your comment and my reply as well

[@jujijiju6929]

@@DV-lh2ov He's an older gentleman, these things change with time gradually. I'm not sure being rude was warranted here.

[@ashwinnair9862]

@Abdul Ghafoor sit down kid ask your establishment and co to stop funding at first place, each actions of your establihsment will have repercussions. It's not a one way street.

[@AkshatSharma1505]

@Abdul Ghafoor What about Khalistan?

[@utkarsh96aware]

I an unemployed student in his 25, need to borrow some money from somewhere to pay for this. Cannot be in guilt of consuming these excellent journalism pieces. Brilliant. Thank you Shekhar Sir and Adrian levy!

[@max-cs9ko]

Shekhar Gupta be like: jaa ji le apni zindagi

[@ayethegreat4997]

@@max-cs9ko 😂😂😂

[@jhendukhan4363]

@@SurajsT-by9es Haha…brilliant. Seems like you’ve met my grandmother. She’d ask SG to pay her for watching.

[@ThePrintIndia]

Not a worry Utkarsh… you will be employed and well-paid soon enough… best wishes…shekhar

[@max-cs9ko]

@@ThePrintIndia shekhar ji, the way you keep supporting privatisation, it's getting difficult to get employment, especially for kids without nepotism links

[@TheVinaynaik]

This is what differentiates "The Print" from the rest of the online news channels. That was a facinating and Informative. Kept me glued for the whole 1.5 hrs. Well done 👍

[@SatishKolli-OM]

@Ninad hahaha what a joke!! So shekar sir is the new taliban of india, according to u, i suppose.

[@pichumanisankar2617]

@Ninad - can you substantiate your wild allegations.

[@psuyog]

Pakka anti-Maharashtrian ahe to. Tyachya junya hate tweets baghitale ki kaLel.

[@divyasatheesh2529]

@Abdul Gafoor Pakistan is the terrorists breeding state..There is no doubt in it!!!

[@KarthikS30712]

I'm humbled to be involved in the conversation where SG gets fresh information.

[@angaatkeeda7971]

I wish I could like this video multiple times.. Simply FANTASTIC! To The Print team- please keep this going! Such OTCs really help us common folk get a better insight into our own institutions and systems. Bravo!

[@SuvasisRout004]

Another author added to my 'to read' list. One of the reasons I love the Print is the no of quality books, reports, theories, surveys etc I get to know about through these OtC and CTC episodes. Keep up the great work the Print team and SG...

[@RHari1]

One of the best and most fascinating Off The Cuff interviews I have come across! Just superb... And I hope Adrian Levy can do more such off the cuff interviews with Shekhar Gupta, and share his insights about this intriguing undercover world. Simply brilliant!

[@randomanand]

Can we get timestamps for OTCs? It becomes easier to search answers to specific questions which were asked in past OTCs.

[@ThePrintIndia]

Hi Anand. We come up with snippets a couple of days later - almost like highlights of the conversation.

[@gurvijaybecker]

@@ThePrintIndia actually time stamps are way easier and gives viewers the liberty to traverse through the interview.

[@mayankkishore3844]

@@ThePrintIndia Agree with Anand and Gurvijay, timestamps are easier.

[@jashthakkar6786]

@@ThePrintIndia yes please it will be help

[@technodestination4763]

@@ThePrintIndia Please do try Timestamps....they work wonderfully and very easy to set up

[@gauriparab]

This “Monisha” deserves a movie based on her life….or a web series!

[@SandeepKulshrestha]

Absolutely! Hope you read the book

[@rohinisridharan7061]

No please. Bollywood would find a way to mess it up with songs and unnecessary love story. Of course it would be great if it was directed on the lines of movie Argo.

[@mohammadmohsinmohammedmohs9717]

Sadly she is not real.. I think this author made it up

[@mrgyani]

Absolutely mind blowing. Have seen & heard so many spy,intelligence related content. This has been by far the most explosive for me..

[@parshowjyotiphukan8445]

Brilliant interview. Learnt a lot.

[@yugeshsaaireddy8832]

One of the best interviews I’ve watched in a long long time , every minute was just engaging !!!!!!

[@dineshkumarsnair7964]

Welldone Sekhar Ji.. Bringing in A Levy was great..Siege, The book and the interview in The Hindu by Mr Levy was so sharp.. He said openly... No incentive in India to Learn from the mistakes of 26/11.. He was coreect..

[@mrgyani]

One of the best, most exciting, fact filled interviews I have seen on this channel.

[@indermethil]

Started watching the video (where shehkar introduced Levy's books). Paused and saved the video, bought the book, spent 24 hours to finish reading and back to watch this. The story is insane, even bond or Bourne films don't come close to what has "allegedly" happened in real life. Well done to both shekar and Adrian

[@uvg319]

The best news channel in India and finally someone who has some intelligence.

[@babkamath]

Great chat, loved it, the perspectives and nuanced conversation is much appreciated

[@siddharthpantoji3999]

I was very impressed by the book - Deception - by Levy and Clark. These writers are very thorough and detail oriented. I am glad Shekhar Gupta likes the same kind of books as I do.

[@ashwinnair9862]

I started watching thinking it's too long but boy oh boy it's worth it. Brilliantly covers nuances of intelligence agencies and the men and women behind them. This is so underrated. Please add timestamp. It'll be a big favor for all of us. Adding this book to my 'to-read list'.

[@electrogagan]

Shekhar sir and The print team - your coverage is exceptional. Heartfelt congratulations for your body of work !

[@sweetguy0]

One of the best discussions on The Print. Thank You.

[@sambugabuga]

Why the audio going off at 58:31 ? Was this deliberate to hide a name ? Brilliant interview by the way. We hardly ever get to know about our own intelligence agency R&AW. Looking forward to reading Adrian's book.

[@resket32]

Exactly

[@cookie365]

Eagerly looking forward to it

[@mig882001]

The best interviews and looks like Gul Md word came true with the Taliban now in control of Afghanistan .Beautiful narration of SPY vs SPY .Adrian understanding of both RAW and ISI operation fascinating .As a Indian RAW news was more scandals and another government bureaucratic organization filled with clerks low level IPS officers .

[@jitkr1489]

I made my yearly donation of the years international subscription after this episode! Good work Print

[@libshastra]

Can we get a panel of legal scholars for an off the cuff and ask them about judicial reforms?

[@ThePrintIndia]

Hi Shiv, interesting suggestion.

[@libshastra]

@@ThePrintIndia I think it's overdue. Last year during the lockdown, we had plenty of policymakers and economists. All of them mentioned judicial reforms but couldn't expand on it beyond the concept.

[@littleviceroy5835]

it was really a delight to watch. Thanx SG

[@sachinreddybappa1273]

Bro vch movie mentioned at 4:28 ??

[@rigpandey2452]

Absolutely mind-blowing want more of this 🥺

[@NaveenKumar-je4sz]

There new book is brilliant. These two writer have some brilliant Hardcore Source in espionage world

[@Valkyri3Z]

Someone from Pak establishment once said the main thing that ruined Afghanistan was involvement of intelligence agencies in the war on terror. They completely twisted the situation beyond repair.

[@curiosity361]

Fascinating stories!! 👍 Thank you SG sir and The Print.

[@stevencolaco4931]

Excellent interview...very interesting discussion

[@nagpalsid]

Absolutely loved this. Excellent job Shekhar

[@preejuani4836]

Great conversation, well done.

[@ZZz-kf4oy]

@ThePrint please consider putting your longer videos on applepodcasts. I dont see any "Off the Cuff" on apple podcast. Thanks!

[@Valkyri3Z]

The funniest part is when even CBI buys into RAW story. LOL LOL

[@uzochiokeke4328]

Even FBI has been fooled by the CIA many times

[@veydkurup9746]

Fantastic interview sir, learnt a lot today.

[@wiips2311]

I must say this one of the best interviews I've seen . You should get Adrian more frequently on your show. I am going to read his book for sure . Good work Print

[@marcuslobo5765]

Really wonderful interview. It was wonderful to hear a neutral voice on the topic. As an Indian ofcourse the RAW story will always be more palatable but what we must understand is that when it cones to survival we must use every tool at our disposal. It is kaabil-e-tarif that despite the gap in available resources our RAW forces have been able to puch over and above the limits to stay at par and even surpass ISI

[@Rajj854]

Enjoyed this. Well done !

[@RahulReW]

Great interview one of the best I have seen in a while, now have to get his books to read it first hand...keep up the good work and bring in such amazing guests in future too... 👍🏼

[@abhilashpatel1809]

loved the discussion.

[@vishalthapa2062]

One of the most amazing episodes... A hour and half just flew away :-)

[@uzochiokeke4328]

you are nepali? 😮

[@ThePrintIndia]

Thank you very much, Vishal… best wishes… shekhar

[@rohinisridharan7061]

Beautiful!!! Loved every bit of it. Thank you

[@321bluff]

As a pakistani i admire and appreciate his effort to study this reigon so extensively as a scholar and be an academic in his approach and neutral in his mindset.

[@ShubhamSharma-hm3sb]

Pakistanis study?🤔🤔🤔

[@hassan42865]

Such depth of information and clarity. Looking forward to get a hold of this book.

[@osyl8]

Great conversation! Thanks Shekhar and Adrian.

[@bikramjitbiswas9478]

just ordered the book- cant wait

[@saratsaratchandran3085]

Breathtaking revelations! Kudos to SG! A serious movie stuff!

[@sumansannigrahi1135]

Very knowledgeable interview...Thanks Shekhar ji for bringing such awesome content.. ordered the book.

[@psychotormentor3278]

Amazing discussion....I'm already sold..ordered it from Amazon already and now can't wait to read it..thanks @SG for such a wonderful Off The Cuff

[@ayethegreat4997]

And how is it ?

[@psychotormentor3278]

@@ayethegreat4997 gripping and intense!

[@psychotormentor3278]

@Abdul Ghafoor absolutely…you reap what you sow

[@alexkool3511]

@Abdul Ghafoor one copy paste reply on every other comment... Did Chinese teach you that???

[@riteshdhawan1230]

One of the best OTC yet! Thanks Print. Happy Birthday and more power to you all. Shekhar G rocks.

[@nomadickhan6655]

Good interview.. 👍 adrian levy's narrations of the events felt like im watching a spy movie.

[@bharathkupur3447]

Such an amazing conversation, appreciate it and very best for the print team.

[@rajeshsingh6015]

I am just awe struck by this, kudos to Shekar Gupta for bringing this to his audience and also the very same to Adrian for the wonderful work that he is doing.

[@rohanundale2519]

This was one gem of an interview from the Print.

[@akashbanerjee6303]

One of the best interviews I have seen ever. Period. Salute Shekhar Guptaji

[@ThePrintIndia]

Thank you Aakash. Best wishes…shekhar

[@MrRk540]

Awesome JOB!!!!! Again... Print is worth the subscription!!!!

[@sanjaydongre]

thanks shekhar for bringing adrian on this episode with full of hash-hash stories , classified info .

[@prafulbhat7039]

Good Conversation that usual media platforms miss to offer. Thanks Mr Gupta

[@saju7726]

brilliant session....

[@dinkarparashar2]

One of the best conversation !!!

[@kabirbahri]

Alot of knowledge transfer here. Really good.

[@Shaggy-839two]

Fascinating. Also funny how Shekhars subconscious biases come to the fore as well!

[@AkshatSharma1505]

Like?

[@navalfa7291]

@@AkshatSharma1505 No Raw officer in his right mind would think that their country at present is not going in the right direction. Also, No Raw Agent would think Mamtha Banerjee would be the right PM of India.

[@AkshatSharma1505]

@@navalfa7291 Mamta Banerjee? Sorry, who says that?

[@waqaskhan552]

Amazing interview ... and undoubtedly this book would be incredibly engrossing

[@ratnamagotra3390]

Brilliant conversation

[@vodanor4997]

Amazing conversation by the best media channel on the Web. Kudos to the Print

[@podadi]

Damm great piece of interview which talks in lot of details !!

[@YahyaKhan-jr7sg]

Damn!! the guest & the host.great info & interesting talk..spy games is a must read now

[@lovesharma4883]

oh wow! I want to order this book right now, and I just finished the interview!

[@ayethegreat4997]

Did you order the book? How is it ?

[@lovesharma4883]

@@ayethegreat4997 oh its amazing. Every page has something which I never knew from regular news. And those close details of officers in RAW and ISI is very engaging. Halfway through it.

[@akshatpathak25]

Manisha, where ever you are...Take a bow

[@rb9238]

The book is basically a publicity campaign for ISI. The authors list various mass terrorist attacks in India over the decades and claim that each one of those attacks is either done by renegades in Pakistan without the approval of ISI or was an Indian false flag. They blame ISI for a few assassinations in Kashmir. That's it. It's also clear from reading the book that the authors have received zero cooperation from RAW. They have a single source from RAW, a retired disgruntled employee. From Pakistan, they have multiple sources which suggest close ISI cooperation who deftly steered the authors.

[@lalsingh5765]

I like Sekhar Gupta's "Cut the Clutter" for its current subject and it's duration of 20 to 25 minutes. I listen to it the first thing in the late evening before the other speeches of 1 hour plus. Thank you SG.

[@abdullahmuhammadzunaid7137]

Absolutely fascinating & eye opener.. it seems, as always the casualty of the actions, are the same normal humans with normal dreams, across the nations.

[@uzochiokeke4328]

you are pakistani?

[@uzochiokeke4328]

@Abdul Ghafoor where did he say that?

[@crkamathtube]

Absolute delight to watch! Have read Exile...will read this one too!

[@sargamsur5337]

Great conversation… makes me curious to read the book. Keep it going SG, another master piece…

[@galeej]

Love how sg let's levy just talk.

[@shishirsks]

Learning such new things looks scary in some ways, most of us are just pawns in a grand game played by big powers, worst part being we don't ever realize it.

[@sudarshan3965]

we are just peasants

[@mrred2496]

we are just fodder characters (anime language)

[@chlorine5795]

@@sudarshan3965 lol

[@pkmkb_0]

we are just Oblivion NPCs

[@olgabooga2230]

@@pkmkb_0 oh good! You’re awake

[@raghuramas6804]

What an insightful talk on geopolitics in the region and such a balanced conversation. Glued for 1.5 hrs and Will surely pick up one of his books

[@duvasrealm]

Pure Quality Time! Quiet a revelation for us the simpleton!

[@ramacol9343]

Simply fascinating. 👍 Listened through in one sitting. Looking fwd to reading more of Levy.

[@junaidarif9932]

beautiful. insightful

[@AkshaySrinivasan123]

Brilliant as always!

[@SandeepKulshrestha]

The Print is the most balanced. Kudos SG sir

[@puneetpuri2758]

What a insider communication, wow!

[@drsubhan786]

Very interesting, very good and very informative programme. 👍

[@nimmanaveen]

Excellent source of information shared no exaggeration. You hit the bullseye. Keep the great work Print. All the best

[@tarovarverma8022]

Awesome and very informative interview

[@shashankvaya2636]

Honestly, there shud b a series on Netflix or Amazon named RAW vs ISI.....

[@vikrantdeshmukh1475]

Good interview..

[@SrinivasRamineni]

Mt first comment to The Print. The conversation was so interesting that I want to read Adrian and Cathy's books now.

[@VarunJainafmc]

One of the best and most knowledgeable #OTC I have heard in a long time. I am planning to read all of Adrian Levy's book.

[@tuepecto]

Superb discussion looking at current state of affairs.

[@sidhuparakala]

Very good interview. Eye opener in some sorts too. One question, Adrian's issue with Pulwama isn't that either the attack or the response are fake. Rather, his only gripe is that there are certain elements on the pak side which didn't want the peace process to progress and hence caused the whole mess?

[@sharathmandyam6103]

He also sees Pulwama as a event that was used by the faction in India that doesn't want peace with Pakistan

[@ThePrintIndia]

Yes. He’s suggesting this was sabotage by Pakistani elements who wanted war with India…tks for writing in… shekhar

[@peacenease]

There are parties that don’t want peace and between India and Pakistan. To blame everything on some shadowy ISI elements is too much of a conspiracy theory. The simple explanation is that terrorism in Pakistan is carried by enemies of Pakistan whether it’s India/Raw, US proxies, or Israeli collaborators the most likely ones. To blame ISI for everything makes it seem too self-contradictory to be effective and incoherent as an argument. The obvious culprits who don’t want peace between India and Pakistan are the USA and Israel. False flag terrorism is not that rare and countries instigate these things all the time. Sorry but I must invite you to open your mind so that it could at least become probable to you that it makes some sense that there could be other actors as well. Sad to say that "the print" came in quickly to clarify that Levy insinuated that ISI must have been behind Palwama since the assumption seems to be that ISI is some kind of devil that all badness must connects back to. To consider for a second that Israel and US would not want peace between would be very uncomfortable albiet much more coherent. Such is the world of irrationality that seeming grownups can regress to is disappointing. If there was a reason to look at India's any real or percieved short coming in its engagment in Afghanistan then it would be this kind of immature thinking that doesn't allow for a more mature albiet inconvenient contemplation!

[@divyasatheesh2529]

@Sharath Mandyam The perspective of authors varies from person to person. We should not believe in them and draw a conclusion entirely on a book written by a foreign author.But we have to keep our mind open and think about it.that’s all.

[@sharathmandyam6103]

@@divyasatheesh2529 your point being ? My comment clearly says it's his view

[@tarunkumargullapalli4361]

Brilliant!

[@saadkhan3300]

Smart of Levy when he said 'yes' to shekhir gupta's addition of word 'former' to khulhushan's name. He prolly understood SG had to do that or else he would be bashed cos it is Pak's stance that he was a serving officer.

[@uzochiokeke4328]

he was not a serving officer and Levy openly criticized R&AW in this interview maybe you are deaf.

[@varunchowdary599]

This is one of the great interviews. I'm buying that book.

[@overdriver789]

Man that's gold

[@alaymehta2025]

What is the chronological order to follow while reading the Books Mr. Levy?