The Painful Death of Indie Rock

[@ThePunkRockMBA]

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[@BrickNewton]

Thanks for mentioning the New Zealand indie scene in the 80's. As a tiny country if you wanted to do anything different you had to do it independently. Flying Nun records really were amazing for what they did for New Zealand music.

[@bartmix8994]

You aren’t old enough to make a good video about this. Alt Rock or whateveryou want to call underground music begn dying when Nirvana hit big and it was dead by 1996. Sure there were a few bands here and there that had some punk rock soul in them, but there was no more scene. Let it alone

[@Artefracture]

Reported for spam...

[@wincup]

It seems certain that as long as the system called capitalism continues, this phenomenon will continue to cycle like a treadmill. However, my personal complaint (in terms of music) is that even this ‘treadmill’ seems to have stopped now.

[@Zundfolge]

I'm a professional graphic designer with close to 30 years of experience so I know these people and I can tell you exactly what happens. See people that work in advertising and marketing (especially the "creatives") are every bit as materialistic and yuppie as the stereotypical stock brokers, lawyers and other "white collar professionals" but they think of themselves as "Indie", "alternative", "counter-culture", "artsy" etc and as such they listen to the music of those sub-cultures and insist on dragging it all into their work. And their work is to make advertising that will get mainstream normies to part with a buck or two for their clients. So they end up "mainstreaming" non-mainstream art (whether it likes it or not).

[@ThePunkRockMBA]

Yep that is EXACTLY what I’m talking about lol

[@RVZNKaraoke]

​@@ThePunkRockMBABut bringing the "edgy" music in will appeal to teens who need to feel and believe it all matters. The edgy/unknown aesthetic will also be cheaper to license and make your product seem hipper. Also, parents grew up with punk and metal, so the kids got into rap and hip hop as a way to "you just wouldn't understand, maaan" it all. Now parents growing up with rap are dealing with kids into TikTok...and those who catch their attention and control the tastes sell the products.

[@bluedeskfan2754]

'creatives' in advertising agencies are some of the least creative people around. they're job is mostly looking through fringe arts / films stuff and if anything is getting any buzz or going viral, then they rip it off and stick a brand name on it.

[@Zundfolge]

@@bluedeskfan2754 What's worse is a large percentage see themselves as "struggling artists" that are forced to "wh*re themselves as designers (because capitalism is ick)". So they're desperate to be "real" artists which is why they try to shove all their hipster music into their work.

[@blueghost4121]

Yes we know. Especially with pronouns in their bios. Super cringe.

[@LoganCovers91]

It comes down to this: no counter-culture movement can last forever as eventually the counter-culture becomes the culture.

[@blue---monday]

so true. i was thinking about exactly this recently

[@LordBillington42]

I remember being told the line 'Everything avant-garde must inevitably become kitsch'. Exactly what you said, just put it in your pocket if you want to be pointedly pretentious about it 😂

[@AstroSully]

Spot on!

[@oa5538]

Or it dissapears

[@ELCNUmorFnaMehT]

Exactly. It's no more complex than that

[@Telesko]

You forgot Juno. Lots of kids were too cool to be into things like The O.C but they all saw Juno and finally got sucked into the indie as a genre hype

[@ThePunkRockMBA]

Yep! Also a really good movie

[@agateforghosts291]

I totally misread this and thought you were talking about the band Juno and now I'm sad lol

[@Ivanexecutive]

super forgettable movie. I remember I thought it was boring as fuck.

[@bovinejoannie9429]

​@@ThePunkRockMBAsht movie

[@mramos1126]

Greatest pro life film ever

[@kitchensinkmuses4947]

I'm from the UK and it's crazy for us to consider Indie without Britpop. It was the mainstreamification of Factory records crossed with a nostalgia for the British Invasion bands (especially the Beatles and the Kinks). REM, sonic Youth, Pixies and the Breeders were barely on anyone's radar here. Instead, they had the Stone Roses, Joy Division, leading into Sleater Kinney, Kenickie and Suede. The the bands were really influential though, and it felt like a big shake up of the scene. Really it was the Strokes (from the US anyway) that made the biggest splash (especially outside London)

[@jon-paulfilkins7820]

I was more in the Goth/Industrial rock and Grebo mindset at the time. I hit my teens as New wave and Ska were fading as major musical forces here in the UK. And raise by a parent who was a music nerd herself. So when Britpop came about I understood the touch stones already. Some of those bands were rather special and many got lost in the rush to fawn over the bigger ones. In the great "Blur or Oasis" debate, I was always firmly in the Pulp camp 😉

[@henrywallace7996]

As far as I’m considered Britpop is when indie lost the plot. Postcard Records, Orange Juice, then later Sarah Records and the entire indiepop scene were all about remaining independent and rejecting trad rock, as well as making perfect pop music. Britpop was basically reactionary laddish rockism.

[@antoniskonstantaras5851]

​@@henrywallace7996that's a stretch! Suede, Blur and many other bands like Rialto, Elastica or Bis were far from the Lad Rock scene and bands like Oasis for example

[@leep1667]

@@henrywallace7996 "reactionary laddish rockism" nice phrase, shame it only applies to Oasis (and maybe Embrace). Suede, the Manics, and later Placebo were explicitly gender defying; Radiohead, The Verve, and Super Furry Animals were very experimental; Blur (even at their most poppy) couldn't shake their arty background; there was no lack of female fronted bands like Elastica, Sleeper, Skunk Anansie, Lush, Echobelly etc. Even indie landfill bands like Shed Seven, Dodgy, and Travis were going for the sensitive disaffected university student market. So in conclusion, you're talking out of your pompous behind

[@TheTigronette]

@@leep1667 To me, UK indie bands always had an image in line with their sound, until britpop. All style and no substance. What's the point of looking like a space-age gender defying creature if you're going to play a pub rock version of Blondie?

[@jonspencer12]

I found indie to occupy the 80s and early 90s. It was called “college radio” then. It meant DIY, Organic “rock” music. It wasn’t punk or grunge. Just varied, underground and it was special then.

[@henrywallace7996]

In the UK it was called indie, or indiepop, and the fans were called indie kids. Bands like The Smiths, Housemartins, Wedding Present, Pastels. Indie as a term seems to have entered the US lexicon sometime later.

[@EditLivy]

​@@henrywallace7996Exactly. That's my personal definition of Indie music - all the British bands from the 80ies you mentioned (and a lot more). It was the perfect time for me being a teen back then. It was awesome regarding music, attending gigs in small venues, lifestyle in general. It made us as people independent to some extend as well. I loved it (still do) and I have nothing but fond memories of that time.

[@danhicks1319]

Yes. The pre-Nirvana era of college radio was a special time.

[@overapology]

I wonder how college radio music sounded like compared to underground music today

[@jonspencer12]

When I think about that time in the US for me key college radio bands: REM, Pixies, Husker DU, Replacements, Depeche Mode, Sonic Youth. There were so many though.

[@Dan-Null]

I remember getting in an argument at my office job in 2009 about the term indie and basically realized indie became a new genre of music instead of diy. They were like, my boyfriend is really into indie music and she pretty much started naming off like jangly alt country stuff amd just popular hipster music(lumineers sounding stuff). I was like, that's not indie, you just mean normal music. I was like indie is underground, people putting out their own music, diy. She did not want to hear any of it. Now I realize it has just become a genre.

[@benamisai-kham5892]

I still consider it self produced underground artists, but it's also it's own genres with sub genres.

[@FlanaFugue]

Sadly I had to accept that too...

[@cleaningmyroom1000]

It’s not though. The Lumineers and other bands like them aren’t indie. Have we all forgotten that a lot of the labels that started out as DIY labels still exits? 4AD, XL, Rough Trade and SubPop are all still going and independent. It still exists at a grass roots level too, I live in Cincinnati and we have three local labels that all put out local indie and punk bands.

[@Dan-Null]

@@Luke5100yeah! I'm just saying I had to realize it's become a blanket term for similar sounding music, like alternative started getting used for everything in the 90s, people started using indie instead.

[@bruce-le-smith]

that sounds like a very frustrating discussion lol

[@bamafencer12]

If anyone remembers, but Gossip Girl had LOTS of indie music in the show. The Young Folks song is in the 1st episode. I found a few bands through that show.

[@slitslit4748]

They had Albert Hammond Jr on it too :)

[@meebsbeans]

They also had Kim Gordon from sonic youth they actually had a pretty good soundtrack

[@kieranaron3853]

Vampire diaries aswell

[@dbase120]

You'll never guess the other show the gossip girl guy created

[@magicknight13]

Lmaoo I love that show!! That's so true! They had a pretty cool soundtrack :)

[@jaredgunderson6530]

It’s funny, growing up in the 2000’s (born in 96) I didn’t know for way too long what Indie even stood for. I always associated it with a general aesthetic and sound more than anything else.

[@jcav9410]

FIFA Soccer (Now EA FC) games sort of did for 2000s indie rock bands - Specifically those in the UK 🇬🇧 - what Tony Hawk did for pop punk in at the dawn of the new millennium. Many indie bands such as Foster the People, The Black Keys, MGMT, Foals, Bastille usually got a song on an edition of FIFA just before their mainstream breakout.

[@jajangteu2449]

yeah agree. also pro evolution soccer too i recall (the drums, two door cinema club)

[@markshadows3667]

I worked at Urban Outfitters from 2000 to 2005 and pretty much the soundtrack of that store sums up indie rock to me. Most of it in wasnt into, but we got advanced cd copies of lots of somewhat groundbreaking albums. That's where i first heard and got into Interpol, the Strokes, Pedro the Lion, Dashboard, Bright Eyes, Promise Ring, The Faint, Ladytron, Death Cab, Postal Service and many more.

[@bamafencer12]

Remember when American Eagle had those Spring Break CDs? It's how I found Kings of Leon. Miss those days.

[@Adam7054]

Worked at American Eagle from 2003-2004. I still have a headache from how LOUD the music was. Edit: Saddle Creek Records changed my life, lol

[@bamafencer12]

@@Luke5100 That whole era especially in Dance/House too. That's mostly what I listen to these days.

[@residentpotato6023]

Crapola

[@mry82]

That's hilarious, but I must say I love Interpol, The Postal Service, Bright Eyes, etc... I'm just glad I found them through exploration on All Music instead of some corporate cog, haha.

[@michelhv]

🇨🇦You gotta blame us Canada too for indie escaping into the mainstream: from Arcade Fire in Montréal to Broken Social Scene in Toronto and Leslie Feist selling iPods, we’re guilty as charged. Oh, and sorry too for American Apparel and Vice.

[@heighwaymusic]

Stop apologizing, god damn it

[@michelhv]

@@heighwaymusic Sorry, it’s a Canadian thing. Oups! Sorry, I did it again.

[@littlekingtrashmouth9219]

Now now, the Canadian government has apologized for Bryan Adams on several occasions.

[@De_La_Soto]

Another notable moment for me was in 2011 when Arcade Fire became the first independent band to win the Grammy for Album of the Year. That shot them off to superstardom and opened the floodgates for the several “indie” acts that blew up in the early 2010’s like The Black Keys, Foster The People, Arctic Monkeys (in the US), Cage The Elephant etc.

[@BrooklynBaby100]

I won tickets to see them live in SF from a radio station out of the Bay Area! I took my brother ❤

[@johntate131]

I saw those bands in phillys a couple of times. I don’t even know where rock as a genre will go in the future. It’s probably just gonna regurgitate itself. I want the rock that Kicked this whole thing off!

[@sebadrum16]

The Grammy was both the best and worst thing to happen to Arcade Fire.

[@MW-dd8vk]

@@johntate131Then bands like Royal Blood, Nothing But Thieves, Highly Suspect, Badflower, Cleopatrick and Dead Poet Society are up your alley. Those bands are defining Alternative Rock for the current generation.

[@Norsztec]

my wish is that people wouldn't let the drudgery of our economic systems affect the culture of punk/diy/ indie. it's understandable on a personal level that people have to put food on the table, but im not yet convinced that outweighs the macro erosion of the culture. im about 60/40 on the side of keeping everything indie pure with a significant level of sympathy for artists trying to make it. also artists that dont sell out deserve god tier respect for doing the work and figuring out how to not let their personal needs outweigh what's bigger than them.

[@jhmi7877]

I'm definitely on this camp. My thoughts at the end of watching this video was, things getting more popular isn't as harmless to me as a lot of people make it sound, because when that happens, the culture surrounding the thing typically changes pretty drastically as well. And to me, that's important to note, even if it does become inevitable at some point.

[@lightfeather9953]

There is no agreed definition of "pure" nor any strong logical coherence behind it. For example the commercials thing... why is getting paid and exposed by being played in a commercial inherently bad?

[@FogJWrestling]

@@lightfeather9953it comes down to the contrast between art and commodities, which as you’ve pointed out is innately a tight rope to walk. Adverts are like, the most naked form of commodifying something. You’re providing a background for an institution to sell a product that often has nothing to do with the art itself. The entire premise of the medium is to simply make money. Obviously when you sell music, concerts, merchandise, etc. - you’re commodifying your art, but I think people accept that because it is related to the art itself, and is a direct expression of that art. A commercial is simply a transaction and nothing more. I’m not vociferously arguing this point, I don’t care that much, just trying to provide a perspective.

[@Arthur-wk6qc]

It's interesting to see that this whole "selling out" thing is sort of a cycle with alternative subcultures that fall under the independent or DIY umbrella. As a hardcore fan its funny seeing people so upset with bands like Knocked Loose hitting Coachella, or Turnstile and Scowl showing up in Taco Bell commercials. For me, I think its cool to see smaller bands show up in the mainstream. I think its awesome that these bands literally got there on their own, by grinding it out until they make it.

[@gx1tar1er]

It's also funny to think that Metallica was underground at one point.

[@soysaucehairdye7869]

I loved the Pacifico commercials that had Explosions in the Sky - You Hand In Mine. Those commercials were well done and I can't blame a band especially a post-rock band that chooses to 'sell out' for some corporate money.

[@davidherzing1496]

No one has a problem with making money, the problem is with the paycheck comes control. You don’t get payed with out having to censor yourself. It’s only selling out when you have to start flying rainbows just to be accepted

[@Ukraineaissance2014]

You learn pretty soon 'selling out' is meaningless. Everybody started a band partly with the hope they could make a decent living from it.

[@Ukraineaissance2014]

​@@davidherzing1496if they still make music you like why do you care though? thats for the band to worry about.

[@danderson8431]

I absolutely NEVER missed an episode of “Alternative Nation” or “120 Minutes”. I wish I still had those video tapes of all the music videos I recorded. That fully was my hobby as a teenager.

[@radiofreejenn0]

Same!! I recorded everything.

[@robertcaple2607]

Well before Alternative Nation there was Post Modern. Hosted by Dave Kendall on weeknights. That went away and there was just 120 Minutes for a few years. Then they brought out AN.

[@bruce-le-smith]

omg when i think back to the amount of time i spent laying on the floor clicking record and stop buttons on vcrs and boomboxes lol, it was a full time hobby

[@whenfatkillsfat803]

I was that way with Top 20 Video Countdown and a lot of that dominated MTV. I remember Lightning Crashes being number one for 5 straight weeks.

[@inelhuayocan_aci]

Yes, me too. In addition, I add Headbangers Ball.

[@danhicks1319]

I remember when Fugazi, Sunny Day Real Estate, The Sea And Cake, Swervedriver, Chavez, Tsunami, Red House Painters, Swirlies, Dismemberment Plan, Shiner, Superchunk and Juno (the band, not the movie) were considered indie rock while also being able to be categorized into other subgenres without a problem. The music was warm, organic and inspiring. And let me tell you, I miss music being like this.

[@matthewmohri9990]

I feel the same way, how did these fakes get into the same Indie Rock genre that Chavez, Polvo, The Archers of Loaf, SunBrain, Mousetrap,Tanner, Brainiac, Slint, No Knife, and Drive Like Jehu were in? Well I guess Indie Rock was a threat so it like other genres of music was Marginalized. What I find hilarious is that people think "Indie Rock" is a sound...No, if you aren't on a major label and you put your music out yourself or on a non major label, yup you are independent. Hello Remember Greg Ginn's Shirt

[@Anti.stress69]

​@@matthewmohri9990nowadays everybody can be "indie", you don't need label tou release music, distibution is easy. But you can be undegrounded with this model, do your own music even if it doesn't fit trends and explore your own unique sound

[@muzikkification]

The term indie infers they are an independent artist (although that''s obviously not always the case) - I think because so many smaller labels are owned by larger companies now that there isn't the amount of more well-known 'indie rock' bands out there now. King Gizzard are probably the biggest current 'indie rock' band that comes to mind, but I'm sure one of their songs will get featured in something big soon enough. On the point of Red House Painters, do you think Sun Kil Moon also fit the bill now?

[@jasonb3908]

I think the thing is that we all grow up, even music. Indy music didn't die, it just got a boring desk job, a family and a house in the suburbs like the rest of us. I think bands are smart to cash in when they have a chance, it doesn't diminish the quality of the music, or the original message even when it's hawking tacos or cars. Much like the rest of us that miss parts of being young and free, those bands also get to a point where the bands have mortgages and are driving their kids to soccer games.

[@zachariahpoltergeist4516]

IMO, the Indie scene hit it big with Napoleon Dynamite and Rushmore, thus ushering in the "block letters scribbled on a binder" aesthetic for all those movies and albums that followed.

[@fabricio4794]

Napoleon Dynamite is Saint Pepsi, i think he is the David Guetta of Vaporwave.

[@tommorton7211]

There was a big shift in the early 2000s when more established main stream artist started allowing their new songs to be used in commercials which helped remove the stigma that this had previously. One example that I remember was Sting's Desert Rose being featured in a Jaguar commercial in 2000. This helped increase the reach of a song that begins in Arabic and doesn't feature Sting's voice until almost a minute in. Today, it is still in his top 5 songs on Spotify with over 100 million plays. If Sting can use the help and exposure that a commercial provides, I can't blame an indie band for doing the same thing to increase the reach of their music.

[@ComDocH]

As a Gen Xer, I feel like indie died really around 90. Everything “college rock” became mainstream: REM, Jane’s Addiction, RHCP, The Cure, NIN, Depeche Mode, Elvis Costello, Psychedelic Furs. Then Nirvana broke big and that was that: independent alternative music died.

[@michaelwills1926]

Gen X here and totally agree. I tend to gauge the transition moment to when you didn’t have to fight rednecks for wearing a Corrosion shirt anymore because they were too busy being the biggest chunk of the Metallica fan base. That was a noticeable change in the matrix.

[@indieguy81]

I'm mostly on board with that, although I think it continued for a while through the 90s and early 2000s with groups like Pavement, Built to Spill, Guided by Voices, etc., but all those groups had firm roots in the 80s underground before making names for themselves. But yeah, maybe 1991 was the beginning of the end.

[@badmofaux]

@@indieguy81You said it. Matador, Merge, Touch & Go, AmRep, Crypt… just to name a few off the top of my head. And for each one, you can name 5 more matching their respective subgenre. The 90s were full of indie rock in the independent sense. The vast majority of what gets called indie, stylistically speaking, never appealed to me. At that point I had returned to my roots a bit and got much more into heavy melodic punk/rock/power pop. Again tho, not the stuff that typically comes to mind stylistically speaking when those genres get mentioned. I’m just a born contrarian who wants to discover things for themselves I guess. Plus let’s face it, popular music almost always sucks no matter the flavor.

[@nah....6151]

I would say it came back in the early 2000s though and had a really nice second wind for a half decade or more, because "alternative radio" ended up pushing bands like Korn, Kid Rock, Limp Bizkit, Creed, etc.... after the early/mid 90s wave died out, which to me would've been akin to college radio playing Motley Crue and Poison instead of The Smiths and Depeche Mode in the late 80s.

[@henrywallace7996]

Indie died when Britpop happened. RIP indiepop. College rock sounds like a funny American term.

[@Isobeln]

In the early 80s, punk for us was a way of life. DIY and individual expression were essential. The indie/punk ethos is what set it apart. It wasn’t a style, but a set of values, moral and cultural, that could only be achieved through independent ownership of the entire scene - music, venues, clothing, etc, etc. I was in the indie music industry at the time Nirvana broke and I agree that Nirvana had a gigantic impact so far as enlarging the alternative audience, but Nirvana didn’t stray too far from their indie roots and Kurt was conflicted about selling out. But what came after them was totally different. Green Day and bands that followed had no misgivings at all about making a lot of money and becoming rock stars, which punks would’ve rejected outright. Selling out was acceptable for a lot of bands now and if you hear them tell it, they never were really punks in the first place or at least didn’t share the same values and beliefs. The sell outs isn’t what killed it though. There were bands that sold out in the late 70s and 80s too, but there had always been a new crop. At the same time alternative moved into the mainstream, i saw a huge loss of individual expression and a homogeny setting in to the mid 90s alternative scene, becoming a bore. Younger kids didn’t appreciate some of the noisier, edgier sounds of the past, didn’t appreciate live music as much and venues closed. Add the internet, social media and a couple generations who value group cohesiveness over individual expression and we’ve got a totally watered down ‘indie’ that can be sold with fast food.

[@bibsma3401]

Marry me

[@steelpainter]

I got frustrated when 'indie' began to be perceived as a 'genre'. I remember bands like The Minutemen, Husker Du, The Cure, The Clash , The Smiths and Joy Division being really difficult to put into neat musical boxes. Many bands were 'independent' in that they functioned outside of the big disgusting gut of the music industry - outside of the relentless machine. However you feel about him, Frank Zappa might be the ultimate 'indie' artist in that sense. Maybe I was wrong, but I had felt at the time that built into that was musical freedom - you went where you wanted, not where an A&R man and a producer taking points while sitting on a throne of compressors wanted you to go. In the early nineties 'indie' became associated with a certain way of dressing, certain hairstyles, certain chord changes, certain subject matter, the anointed approval of a certain circle of influential critics. It began to get policed: I woke up one morning to find out Ozric Tentacles (releasing their own DIY cassettes at festivals and then forming their own record label) and Fish were not indie but suspiciously elitist prog-rockers (hey, that is NOT what indie sounds like, man) while the children of millionaires get zipped straight from an expensive rock school onto a big label with a crew of stylists bigger than their sound crew, Zane Lowe fawns over them and someone plays it for me waiting to se me get blown away by the sheer honesty of it all . . . .

[@usualdosage7287]

As someone in the younger generations I love the noisy, uncategorizable, harsher side indie like big black or the jesus lizard, much prefer it to the soft acoustic folky stuff

[@Ludzig]

Ok grandma

[@CastleManiaGames]

From a financial perspective, when everyone else leaves you, even your fans every band is indie. The music industry changed a lot post 2000. These bands either sell songs to car commercials or they play at local gigs for a couple years for their friends before they break up.

[@SartorialisticSavage65]

Nope.

[@apotato4939]

@@SartorialisticSavage65your insight was eye-opening and gave me a brand now perspective on things. Thanks!

[@helpwanted134]

As a teenager/young-adult reaching my 20s, I would say indie is in my top 3 favorite music genres ever. It’s what I mostly grew up with during my childhood, and I still listen to a lot of indie to this day. Most of my friends view indie as the new “corporate music” kind of, but I knew it was much more than this. The calm melodies and rhythms combined with thoughtful and introspective lyrics seemed very appealing to me, and I would even go to some lengths to say that it saved my life and comforted me when I was at my lowest. And so I came to appreciate bands like Arctic Monkeys and Death Cab enough to be interested in listening to not only their most popular songs, but also the deep-cuts

[@michaelthompson9540]

Keep it up. I am 46 and my wife is 43. We have been indie music fans since we were teenagers. Music has definently got me through some rough times in my life. I also enjoy me some dark wave and brutal death metal😊

[@stevenfunderburg1623]

I'm sorry...I fell asleep halfway through what you wrote there.

[@Podus81]

Death Cab rules! Indie/alt-rock is my favorite genre forever. Artistic humans who aren't exactly virtuoso musicians making emotional and introspective music. That is what indie means to me.

[@LayneStaley-zl2iq]

It's goofy trash from whiners in a world where real bad shit happens. You should poke your head outside of your most likely undeserved better position in life than 90% of humanity.

[@LayneStaley-zl2iq]

@@stevenfunderburg1623 not surprised.

[@MaththeNoob]

You forgot to mention the shift in indie that really created the lumineers when hipsters started liking acoustic better than electric and then came the lumineers, edward sharpe, passenger, vance joy and a million indie folk artists

[@robmartin5448]

I agree but Was that even organic tho? I remember normies(ex emo) flocking to Lumineers thinking they were alt. Anybody that was into crystal castles, sleigh bells, cut copy in 2012 was going into like Odessa,flume in 2015 or into like older rarerities. By the time 2016 hits the indie ogs had grown out of it. It was just funny seeing 2021 , tik tok pick off where we left off with crystal castlwss, strokes - all it fate callnit karma blowing up.

[@skakirask]

Pop punk/emo kids of the late 90s/early 00s came to a crossroads in the mid-00s. Either go the "heavier" emo route that was usually more adjacent to aggressive pop punk, or go the "indie" route that was more melodic, mellow, and often used acoustic instruments like Death Cab. I went the indie route at the time.

[@JohmathanBSwift]

For me it was Singles. I knew it was over when that movie hit. I never had to be cool. I could go to the shows and just be me. The clothes that I wore were the clothes that I had, and the next thing you know. It's like with Carhart jackets. My stepfather bought me one because I was doing some outside labor. It was like a right-of-passage thing. Again, the next thing you know. I'm happy for many of the band's success. I'm also happy that I got to see many of them in the smaller venues and clubs. It's kind of odd, but from 2012 to 2017 I was back going to the small clubs, but this time, I was seeing the much older acts that were out touring. Shows like Robin Trower in a crowd of like 200 people. He signed my 180-gram Friday Bridge of Sighs album. He kind of chuckled when he said, "Somebody actually bought this". Then politely said "Thank you. Means everything" I was going to see David Sandborn in the same small club, but then Covid hit. I did get to see David play at a larger venue previously, and I did get to meet him afterward and his band. We talked for like 20 minutes about music. He and his band signed some stuff and off they went in their small white van. For me being trendy is being removed from the music. You're doing it because that is what you're supposed to do. It's not because I have a disdain for trends. It's not I'm right and they're wrong, I just like to do what I feel comfortable doing.

[@etheretherether]

The show Chuck also had a banger "indie-ish" soundtrack. Wasn't as big as The OC, but definitely also inspired a whole generation of music taste.

[@BrickNewton]

So awesome to hear Fin mention the New Zealand scene and the bands like the Verlaine's. We had an amazing group of muscians in the 80's who forged their own style and sound. I was a bit too young to appreciate it at the time..

[@FlanaFugue]

Cloud Boy?

[@dsmithad]

You guys had spit enz and the church, really good stuff.

[@bwillie1793]

Mutton Birds! Flying Nun label bands. The Bats…good stuff

[@BBrecht]

@@dsmithad The Church are Aussie

[@jessmanuel540]

Great indie bands: Dead Can Dance, Cocteau Twins, Bauhaus, MBV, Slowdive, AR Kane, Spacemen 3, Loop, Moose, The Feelies, Galaxie 500, Felt, House of Love, Low, Young Marble Giants, Teenage Fanclub, BMX Bandits, The Vaselines, Stone Roses, The Jesus *& Mary Chain, Orange Juice, Beat Happening, Pixies, Throwing Muses, Pooh Sticks, Stereolab.

[@228-n6f]

As far I know, Indie music in general began to rise in the early 2000’s when the White Stripes revived garage rock along with the Strokes and Pre-Brothers Black Keys. Almost a decade later, not only it made officially to the mainstream, it reached its peak in popularity mainly because it wasn’t abrasive as its predecessors in rock and alternative music commercially (Nu-Metal, Post-Grunge/Active Rock, Emo/Scene Kid Rock, and Metalcore), which perceived major labels that it’d would make a lot of money for a long term but it kinda went short.

[@dathorndike4908]

Indie did NOT begin in the 2000's. Indie goes back to the late 70's, and reached its peak in the 80's and 90's with bands like Fugazi, Husker Du, R.E.M., Camper Van Beethoven, Bikini Kill, Joy Division, Flat Duo Jets, Red Red Meat, The Dead Milkmen, Bad Religion, etc. Indie is so much more than just not being on a major label. Its includes the whole DIY ethos of promoting and booking your own shows, self financing your own tours in a shitty van, and sleeping on people;s floors instead of the local Hyatt.

[@cristiwalters]

Not if it is the aesthetic that it has become. I believe the difference between the two uses for the term indie was already well explained in the video. The definition you are describing was not the one they were referring to.@@dathorndike4908

[@228-n6f]

@@dathorndike4908 I’m NOT saying how it started, I’m actually saying how it began to rise in the mainstream popularity that changed the definition of the term.

[@vlcheish]

​@@228-n6f Also Indie was the last genre for rock music before it basically died commercially after 2010. Seeing Arcade Fire on stage in Feb 2011 for The Suburbs was that last moment and things downtrend from there massively. It was crazy to see Coachella go from having Vampire Weekend to The Weeknd in a short time. Pretty much as Gen Z got into high school to college the entire scene was shifting hard. I lived by a university in late 2010s and I use to play a game when I was walking around trying to count how many times I hard any music being play that was rock and I could go an entire week without hearing it. With that said it seems TikTok is bringing more variety back interesting enough

[@lethybridtheorygolucastheo2191]

True. The Garage Rock Revival only lasted a few years (2002-2005 before the Emo influenced Pop Punk and heavier Post Grunge ended its run in the mainstream although along with it evolving into Landfill Indie) and a majority of that stuff was niche compared to Nu Metal, Pop Punk & Post Grunge (It was popular in the UK though)

[@chase7224]

I've always said the Insane Clown Posse is one of the most successful indie acts of all time.

[@soulfireclash2882]

When they were signed to Jive? Lol

[@VinylShinobi]

What about TECH N999999NE!!!!

[@joshgrotesque2519]

​@@VinylShinobiTech N9ne,Twiztid, KMK etc. Whoop whoop

[@dathorndike4908]

Are you high? What the hell is indie about ICP??

[@BPendleburyMagic]

​@@dathorndike4908well, they do own their own label. And, do all the merchandise and everything their own.

[@samhill618]

True. It’s something that the industry always does; they take something that is created by artists, market it with watered down imitators until the genre dies. My bigger concern is how difficult has become for poor artists to become artists now.

[@Shrimpy08]

Finn, as a “indie rock” fan I 100% agree with you. Indie rock is still here though bubbling in the underground but all the indie rock people know today is nothing but pop rock. Bands like Lovejoy,1975 and idk the glass animals band are just major label weak music.

[@helpwanted134]

You’re telling me there are people who categorize Lovejoy and The 1975 as indie?

[@sunny1992s]

@@helpwanted134 The 1975 is technically on their own label. But to me they sound like generic pop rock from this generation.

[@helpwanted134]

@@sunny1992s that’s what I was going to say. Sonically, The1975 is pop rock 100%. Maybe it sounds a little bit like indie but it’s not

[@sunny1992s]

@@Luke5100 yeah realized I unironically gatekeeped a genre.

[@bamafencer12]

@@sunny1992s I call it rich white girl music. Especially with bands like 1975.

[@matthewgallant3622]

I was into indie rock for a bunch of years in the mid-2000s mostly, and it started with Radiohead for me, then The Shins, Bright Eyes, Cat Power, Neutral Milk Hotel, Modest Mouse, etc. i was writing and doing lots of art, going to festivals and just kinda coasting through life, and it made a good soundtrack for that. These days I’m back to hardcore punk, new wave/goth rock, underground rap, and thrash metal for whatever reason. I’m 37 and I just listen to what I feel like. Indie rock doesn’t hit my ears that often anymore. But there was a time it was huge to me and some of those albums will always mean something to me.

[@Isporf]

I think “indie rock” suffers from a genre classification problem. “Alternative” already had a specific connotation for music that was noticeably heavier than most “indie rock” sounds, and no one really came up with better descriptors, so a bunch of wildly different artists are all shoved under the “indie” label. You have the same problem with EDM. Sure it’s all dance music, but it’s a HUGE umbrella that covers artists that are polar opposites of each other than that they make music with synths

[@denislemieux4915]

Many of us older electronic music fans consider the term "EDM" to mean Pop electronic. The Chainsmokers being the easy example.

[@isaacjamesbaker]

The fact I love watching your videos on genres or scenes I don't care about... feel like that says a lot about your research, perspective and delivery. Great stuff!

[@cleaningmyroom1000]

It was perfectly researched until he got to the 2000s.

[@dylanadams1455]

Never thought I'd ever see The Chills and The Verlaines on a Punk Rock MBA video!!! The Dunedin scene in New Zealand in the 80s and early 90s was amazing, mostly revolving around one Indie label, Flying Nun. Really diverse bands, the only thing uniting them is their non commercial sound. From sweet jangly pop (Chills, Verlaines, The Bats) to raucous noise (Gordons, Skeptics, HDU) to wiry Indie Rock (The Clean, Straitjacket Fits)to twisted dark Industrial dance pop (Headless Chickens), a truly legendary Indie label.

[@nikkinathandarling416]

Over here in Scotland & the wider UK, Britpop is probably the epicentre of indie. Bands like Oasis, Suede, Pulp, Blur & The Verve still have a cult following today. Ocean Colour Scene, who you could argue were a "mid-sized" Britpop band, still sell out arenas, especially in Glasgow almost every year. Britpop morphed into bands like Garbage & continue to mutate into the likes of Biffy Clyro & Franz Ferdinand. Glasgow is definitely the epicentre of indie now and has been a massive player for decades (The Jesus and Mary Chain, Primal Scream, Franz Ferdinand, Mogwai etc) but Manchester coming off of the back of the Madchester scene arguably burst grunges bubble over here with Oasis's first two records, Definitely Maybe & What's The Story Morning Glory going stratospheric (Knebworth anyone?)plus underated band The Verve still adorning walls & record collections today, & of course Livepool played it's part with the likes of the LA's and Cast. I don't know how big an impact these bands made across the pond but for sure over here you think Indie, you think 90's Britpop and the influence those bands still have on Scottish/British music today. Finally a quick note on how pop music has been influenced by indie acts. Just check out Rebecca Lucy Taylors' transformation from shy indie lass in Slow Club to confident & fabulous solo princess - Self Esteem.

[@dylanadams1455]

OCS were underrated. They had this great 60s soulful element. Love The Riverboat Song and The Day we Caught the train

[@robertpatterson1037]

Here in the Uk indie definitely points towards Britpop and The Manchester sound etc. was a big fan of Jesus Jones,Neds Atomic Dustbin etc etc which all came under indie.

[@thegoofsRus]

Liam Gallagher might curse someone out if they called Oasis an indie band to his face. 😆 He'd rather Oasis be called a Rock & Roll band. Oasis seemed like the kind of guys who would clown on modern day indie bands. But maybe Oasis would be considered an indie band by today's standards. Maybe.

[@robertpatterson1037]

@@thegoofsRus if you think of Oasis as a sound and attitude then definitely indie but as one of the biggest selling bands of the past hardly independent. It’s down to how you view what an indie band is I guess.

[@jamlemon]

Exactly, indie is pretty much all of these bands and anything else that gets played on Radio X.

[@youngwt1]

The indie aesthetic hits a little differently this side of the pond, when I think of British bands like embrace, snow patrol and early Coldplay, though it’s probably more accurate to call that post Brit pop if anything

[@SingKahKah]

I actually do think there was a bursting of the bubble of what could be considered the 2000s indie rock boom, probably somewhere between 2009 and 2011. Throughout the decade what was considered indie started to get more and more experimental, perhaps as a reaction to the increasing commercialization, which kinda popped with the trifecta of Bitte Orca, Veckatimest, and Merriweather Post Pavilion in 2009. Maybe it's forgotten nowadays but those three albums were absolutely massive, a watershed moment that spelled the logical end of the 2000s indie rock boom. After that it kind of reset, almost like it was too much. Indie got less out there with the rise of social media and an increased focus on aesthetics that allowed artists like Grimes, Mac Demarco, St. Vincent, James Blake, Odd Future, Bon Iver, etc. to really thrive and garner massive fanbases. From there it's not hard to see the direct line from say, Bon Iver or Fleet Foxes to The Lumineers. Also if you haven't already seen it, I would recommend a documentary called Kill Your Idols from 2006. It kinda touches on this stuff, explores the relationships between the generations of the New York art punk scene starting in the 70s with like No New York, DNA, Lydia Lunch, Suicide, Sonic Youth and going up to the mid- 2000s when bands like The Yeah Yeah Yeahs, Liars, Gogol Bordello, and Black Dice were having their moments.

[@gx1tar1er]

Arctic Monkey is on Domino which they claim to be an independent record label but they got extremely commercialized during their fifth album, AM (that album was HUGE world wide in 2013) so I'm not really sure if it's "indie" record label anymore lol

[@gx1tar1er]

there's other notable artist on that label: Alex G (later) Animal Collective (later) Franz Ferdinand My Bloody Valentine Pavement (later)

[@ryanissuper1334]

...and then followed it up with a concept album about a retirement home on the moon.

[@anthonybird546]

Clinic was on Domino and they were weird as fuck

[@honiideslysses12]

Back in the nineties as a young twenty-something I truly embraced the cynical and jaded Gen X slacker culture. I dug the DIY lo-fi aesthetic of Pavement and Guided By Voices and the very loud dense swirling and disorienting beauty of shoegaze pioneers Ride, Slowdive and My Bloody Valentine. The ‘zines were great, too like The Wire, Raygun and even Spin. Thanks for the memories and as indie rock’s elder statesman Flaming Lips frontman Wayne Coyne said, “The sound is so cute when you’re twenty-two.”

[@tobiasblackmoar]

kinda messed up using kurt's dead body photo to show the tattoo..

[@CIRCLEOFTONE]

I'm working on a Bauhaus video as I type. Most indie labels have at least distribution from a major these days so it's harder to win as a true indie label. Great video man. Venom had a huge hand in metal when it comes to creating an indie label which helped launch NWOBHM. Mentioning The Damned is huge too. The release of New Rose put punk on the map.

[@hrotha]

I thought the only contribution of The OC to pop culture was the Dear Sister SNL digital short, I had no idea it was basically an indie show

[@sunny1992s]

The OC really impacted pop culture of the early 2000's. MTV had its version of it, called "Laguna Beach: The Real OC". Nickelodeon had "Zoey 101". Music videos, such as John Mayer's "Clarity" leaned into that indie/southern california aesthetic.

[@brainst3w]

mmm whatca sayyyy

[@CaptainAndy]

The pub rock scene in the UK during the late sixties and early seventies was basically indie rock before the term indie rock was a thing. These bands played small venues (pubs) rather than big fancy venues and they set up their own labels to release their records. The first UK punk single: ‘New Rose’ by the Damned was produced by pub rocker Nick Lowe and released on pub rock label Stiff Records.

[@RanterInShades]

I associate "indie" the most with the 00's to early 2010's. By the time I started college in 2012 was when I started to notice the definition changing, but I was on board with it because I liked seeing any kind of rock in the mainstream.

[@TikkiNikki]

I think Indie has a place of you happen to be doing something significant in your life. A lot of the 2000s indie bands have a one wonder that correlates to a specific memory in my past. But on the whole, I wouldn't listen to more than that one song by the band so perhaps I contributed to the fall

[@BrooklynBaby100]

Huh lol

[@zzjamie-is-over-partyzz]

i think you’re right about how indie has become more of an aesthetic rather than best kept secret from the mainstream, but in my opinion if they’re signed to a label or not there’s still a lot of indie living. even though the idea of indie has now shadowed most of its roots, indie music for the past couple of years have usually been just random people online trying to make music and putting it out on bandcamp and soundcloud. if you like it, you give them a follow. usually some people in that group end up making it in the mainstream indie scene (what we see first when we think if indie). underground indie is still out there, just in a more digital way.

[@zzjamie-is-over-partyzz]

bands and artists like alex g, frankie cosmos, clairo, and snail mail are indie artists that even though are signed and have a bigger audience, they started from the bottom in the indie scene playing small show and posting their music.

[@Punxatowny]

Glad to see some mentions of Modest Mouse. Would love to see a whole video about their strange history.

[@Bruisewillies]

Great vid! Something interesting, in the UK at least, is how much indie BBC Radio 1 played throughout the 80s and 90s, particularly through John Peel, but also Andy and Liz Kershaw, Steve Lamacq and Mark Radcliffe. This was a national radio station, broadcasting all kinds of wotld, indie, metal and punk for hours a week. Also, by the indie metric, Stock Aitken and Waterman were an indie label ( Dead or Alive, Bananarama, Rick Astley, Kylie Minogue)

[@henrywallace7996]

True haha. SAW used to top the indie charts before they changed it.

[@infidelmat]

Being anti-punkrock is the most punkrock thing ever 😂

[@bluegregory6239]

That makes Steely Dan the punkest band of all time.

[@jmcmike4407]

@@bluegregory6239yes

[@fabricio4794]

@@bluegregory6239 i Love Stelly Dan,and im a white man from Brasil,this is the most anti stereotype act that i am

[@ConvincingPeople]

@@bluegregory6239Honestly, Steely Dan's lyrics were really subversive and twisted in a way which a lot of punk bands would've killed to be.

[@javierpulidofrausto9496]

The fact that indie music fits so well with commercials is its most damning characteristic. It really is as soulless as elevator music. A genre so worried with looking and sounding cool and aloof that it ends up being completely bland.

[@MrKowalskyfication]

I don’t think that’s necessarily an indictment of indie music. I like indie music and therefore I will probably like how it sounds in commercials, why is that bad?

[@javierpulidofrausto9496]

@MrKowalskyfication Because of the nature of commercials. They are, by definition, not a creative work with an artistic purpose. They are a marketing tactic that's used to sell things. So, every element in them has to be bland and not threatening in order to avoid offending potential customers. That's what indie is like, music that anyone can find pleasant (I do), but that doesn't really contain anything of substance. The music is not complex, imaginative, or with any identifiable trait other than 'rock but not too edgy or aggressive', and the lyrics are emotionally detached. It's hipster music.

[@MrKowalskyfication]

@@javierpulidofrausto9496 I disagree, I think tons of great songs have been used in commercials, that doesn't necessarily make the songs bland. For example Morricone's Ecstasy of Gold has been used in Modelo commercials, does that mean that every element in that song is bland? Absolutely not. (Other examples include David Bowie's Heroes, Daft Punk's Technologic) I disagree that popular / widely appealing things must be bland or lack substance. I think art can be both popular and have a wide appeal, while still being interesting.

[@javierpulidofrausto9496]

@MrKowalskyfication That is a very valid point. My diatribe is not really against any other genre of music apart from indie. It's just that since I was a teenager, I've defended pop-punk, emo, and other types of Warped Tour music from hipsters who consider indie a superior genre, and deride what I like. So I am quite biased.

[@danevans4376]

@@javierpulidofrausto9496 also worth noting that the guy that runs this channel has a clear distain for "indie" music, he fails I think to realize the varied scope of bands that fall under this supposed banner. He constantly lists the Lumineers as the pinnacle of indie music. The Lumineers, Bloc Party, Interpol, The Strokes, Arctic Monkeys, Gorrilaz, The Killers, MGMT all fall under the the supposed "Indie" umbrella yet their sound and style couldn't be any more different. I'd almost argue that Pop Punk as a genre is one of the most anodyne and pastiche genres going around.; its the same powerchords being churned out band after band over the last 30 years.

[@lonewanderer3603]

I refuse to believe anybody at the time was having more fun than The B-52's.

[@duffmcclintock6199]

That was depressing but spot on. Also, did you really have to show Cobain’s corpse? That made my stomach uncomfortable. Change it.

[@DanielSnafu]

so it's not just me who saw that

[@jeanpierre5941]

Yeah I agree

[@luizakrolewska]

I remember when i was in high school and everyone was either indie or emo. Indie kids dressed in vintage clothes they found inspiration from on tumblr and listened to Mumford and Sons. I was an emo kid myself but I thought indie kids were so cool and I secretly loved indie music, especially The Strokes, and yes I was crushing on Seth Cohen as well 😅 that was a good time to be alive

[@agzilla9005]

Man you just reminded me of an old Zach Gallifinakis joke- "my next joke is to prove that i can appeal to the art crowd but also be dirty. i call my balls belle and sebastian." Also I love when you teach the children about great rock bands that existed before 1991.

[@kevinstewart8120]

Also I think indie aesthetic of the mid 2000s was dethroned by the explosion of EDM stuff like dub step and club music like that

[@blackelton7127]

You could argue that a lot of the Sound Cloud and KZbin dubstep producers were more indie than the commodified ‘indie aesthetic’ bands that were actually on big labels

[@jlbnerdy]

Really enjoyed this look at the indie music history....was in hugh school/college when indie blew up in early 2000s & had a huge crush on Seth Cohen. Only reason I haven't gotten into much newer music is honestly just doing more 'adulting' & not being as active in going to shows, except tried & true emo bands touring now, like the Get Up Kids. Would love a video on how music you discover in hs/college stick so much, too.

[@Philliben1991]

The internet killed indie. First of all it completely destroyed the whole idea of an underground. The whole point of the underground was it was almost a secret society. Once it was exposed to everyone at the click of a mouse it lost it's cool and alternative credentials. Secondly, the promotion and distribution model of indie music was very traditional. Record shops, alternative radio, music press, small venues. The internet destroyed many of these and greatly reduced others leaving a greatly disturbed network. Thirdly the quality of guitar bands dropped off sharply around 2010. Most of the 'Pitchfork' bands were boring (The National) or unlistenable (Animal Collective). The record buying audience mostly saw through the garbage they were being slung. The 'new' thing lost it's appeal and serious music fans went off to investigate back catalogues of obscure groups from previous decades as they were much better than the new offerings. The indie genre became stale and backwards looking. Bands had been ripping off bands like The Velvet Underground since the very beginning of Indie but they usually added their own touches. By 2010 most guitar bands just sounded like poor quality tribute acts. The nadir was around 2015. Since then I think things have been making a slow come back. It's nowhere near what it was but you can at least make a list of decent quality 'indie' bands again - Idles, Squid, Tropical Fuck Storm, King Krule, Fontaines D.C., King Lizard etc.

[@volpe_sol]

The OC actually had an absolute banger soundtrack. I made the show stand out and feel unique because of its music selection.

[@TheRealityofFake]

I think indie is kind of at it's peak in the sense of the first definition. Artists today have so many more opportunities to release music on their own that they really don't need labels anymore. There are artists turning down signing with major labels because they're better off just using tik tok and spotify to release music.

[@ThePunkRockMBA]

Totally agree

[@joeplaysdrums89]

My wife and I refer to the music used in the OC and Chuck and Gossip Girl as Schwartzcore. Since Josh Schwartz took such a huge part in choosing the music that would be for his shows and honestly (barring Gossip Girl) the songs are freaking great and really add to those episodes.

[@alyzu4755]

I started college in '87 and met a friend who introduced me to indie music. We were living in NYC and, at the time, most clubs would let us in, even though we we were underage. We weren't there to get drunk, we were tgere for the music. And I got to see some great shows: Husker Du, Fishbone, Pixies, Fugazi, and even the Ramones. I LOVED "120 Minutes" and watched it every week. In '92 I moved to the Berkshires in western Massachusetts and wore flannel and boots because I HAD to. It was winter and it was cold and snowy, lol! Finally, the mainstream ALWAYS takes over the fringe. Look at the classic Coke ad from 1971.

[@blueshadesable]

recently discovered this channel and am loving it. You're really digging into niche topics and giving good coverage. And yes, the O.C. was amazing because it absolutely featured music as much as its characters. Great work man! I will def be tuning in some more for this kind of content.

[@nateo7045]

Love the Shins. Was hoping to see a mention about Bright Eyes. Feel like Conor Oberst is the epitome of indie.

[@brainst3w]

100% agree. conor oberst was like the “heartthrob” of indie

[@nateo7045]

@@brainst3w Ohh I have a total heart on for that man. Honestly, if I had to pick only one artist's discography to listen to for the rest of my life, I think it'd have to be his. And yet I feel like most people don't even know who he is. What's wrong with the world! 😭

[@soyburglar77]

Considering that I’m roughly the same age as you (46), I could listen to and talk about this stuff all day! I really value the fact that I was sort of the perfect age for the convergence of all of this stuff, but primarily the fact that in hindsight, my obsession with MTV at around the age of 13-14 was completely justified! Programs like Alternative Nation, 120 Minutes, Liquid Television, the State, etc just completely primed me for one of the best eras of music we’ve ever seen. I bought a $30 Harmony guitar when I was 13 with the sole intent of becoming as much like G’n’R’s Slash as physically possible. But it’s no surprise that within the span of just one year, from the end of 1990 to the end of 1991, all remnants of the hair metal giants that had adorned the walls of my bedroom had all been removed and replaced with posters and images of the Cure, Lenny Kravitz, Violent Femmes, Pixies, the Lemonheads, Jane’s Addiction, and so, so many more unbelievable acts.

[@whenfatkillsfat803]

About to be 43 in a month and agreed with that era. I'll add Top 20 Video Countdown. Once they cancelled that for TRL, they were dead to me.

[@jameslupkin3266]

Lol so glad you mentioned the OC. I just started showing my wife the show and how I still listen to all the music from then

[@psych4003]

SONIC YOUTH MENTIONED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It would be really cool if you did a video on Sonic Youth Finn. REALLY cool!

[@megmcguigan3857]

I was a teen in the 80's and into Indie type music. I was basically into goth music before it was called 'goth' in my part of the SF East Bay. I saw The Cure in an arena in 87 and it was the worst show I have still ever been to. I have never been into grunge music. I went as a favor to a friend to a Pearl Jam, Nirvana RHCP show on Dec. 31 in San Francisco and my friend and I looked very punk/goth and other people there gave us shit the entire night. I equated grunge fans with scene jumpers because it was soooooo trendy to call oneself 'alternative' during that time. I still listen to punk and goth music to this day because the music genuinely means a lot to me.

[@Podus81]

I love The Cure live, that said, '87 may have been the end of the bands heavy drug use. Was Simon back by then? He left the band after he and Robert got into a fight involving a glass of beer. I forgot who hit who.

[@megmcguigan3857]

@@Podus81 Yeah, they broke up a few times in the late 80's. I honestly can't remember. I was hugely into U2 during that time and I made a DIY U2 back patch for a denim jacket I used to wear constantly. I wore it to that Cure show and not a single person gave me crap.

[@asicola1]

I was at that Pearl Jam / RHCP / Nirvana show at the Cow Palace that night too. People gave me shit because I didn't have a flannel on.

[@MrBlink1980]

One Tree Hill got me into "Indie" music. Great show. First 4 to 6 seasons are better than the OC in my opinion. The last 3 season got a little crazy, but still had that the music as a character in the show. The show also had the greatest redemption arch I have seen. "You Can't Kill Dan Scott!"

[@residentpotato6023]

One Dumb Show

[@jacobb1650]

Yes 100 percent

[@manderse12]

Great video essay. I appreciate your honesty. I especially appreciate the deep history dive into the roots of "indie" when there was something substantial to answering the question, "Independent from what?"

[@AvaaSlays_Swiftie]

I liked very few indie bands growing up in the 90s. But I totally agree it feels like an aesthetic now.

[@billyhughes9776]

Oh man -- The OC portion of the video hit me with some heavy nostalgia -- I felt high for a few seconds,....

[@jeffkeys8703]

Indie is definitely more of an overall sound or aesthetic now . When I hear or see the word “indie” slapped infront of a genre I automatically think of it being a more eclectic / watered down version of whatever genre it’s infront of

[@Chaz4543]

When I hear indie I think NO loud or heavy distorted guitars.

[@aljanusis]

At 10:01, there's absolutely no need to show a death scene photo for something that we could learn about. We all know about Kurt's demise. He had other photos of his K Shield out there.

[@soysaucehairdye7869]

The greatest Indie album of all time is Unwound - Leaves Turn Inside You. That album is a reason why a band would stay indie and they were a band that started out with Nirvana in the same practice space.

[@michaelthompson9540]

Damn. A friend of mine burned that cd for me back in like 2001. Great stuff.

[@markanderson3870]

"How did we get from Fugazi to the Lumineers?" Indeed, great question! I'm laughing while I'm crying.

[@devastaterx]

I kinda wish this channel had a more general music title cuz this needs and deserves to be over a million subscribers. It's just that kind of channel with the info you get from it. I love punk but not everyone does and tons of the content is not punk focused.

[@ThePunkRockMBA]

I wish it did it too! Oh well, too late now

[@hangtownranger]

⁠@@ThePunkRockMBAI think you can change the name. “My Thoughts Will Probably Offend You” channel had hers changed “Michelle McDaniel”

[@PieknyWojtek]

Indie scene in UK and Scotland is still huuuge. I would guess it's one of the most popular genre over there. When I lived there and you wanted to start a band you would play indie - it's like a base for making music. There was also MTV2 (now MTV Rocks I think) that played mostly indie music, and sometimes even less known bands.

[@SF2036]

As a late Gen X’er (teen in the early 90’s, 20 something in the 2000’s) Finn and I are usually on the same part of the map. Unfortunately I will have to delineate quite sharply with the status quo. I sincerely miss the rawness and anti-establishment viscerality that was once one of the staples of indie rock.. Total co-opt went down in the 2010’s. 👎

[@radiofreejenn0]

I’m only a tiny bit behind you in age, and I could not agree more.

[@SF2036]

@@radiofreejenn0 And I thought the softer indie pop generally was good music.. I just get really nostalgic for the rawer more aggressive music

[@radiofreejenn0]

@@SF2036 I like indie to a point, but like you, I’m more into raw, aggressive sounds usually. It does vary however for me sometimes. I listen to a LOT of 90s stuff and I’m convinced some of the music that came out during that time period was the best(but ya know, I’m probably biased). I was listening to Spiderland by Slint yesterday and I feel by all accounts they would be “indie” but I hardly know a single person who has heard of them.

[@SF2036]

@@radiofreejenn0 It’s like the culture got on this moral high horse where raw and visceral means toxic, or wrong and gross. Nah, in the context of indie (also punk and metal) it usually meant anti-establishment, and urgent. People really should take better stock of what they’re calling irrelevant. The world can be ugly, harsh and dystopian, art needs to reflect that reality rather than always deferring to something that’s designed to create comfort and challenge no one.

[@SF2036]

@@radiofreejenn0 intensity. Intensity is good for humans! Embrace it! Run some sprints do some pull ups maybe actually earn that $100 massage you pay the spa for 😂 Sorry to make two comments. This is a topic I can go on all day about.

[@dg1019]

Indi went away with the rise of the internet as we know it. Before that they only access to any real exposure was a major label and radio airplay. Indi bands did a work around with college radio and smaller labels. Also touring nonstop. The internet changed all of that. Napster was the beginning of the end.

[@LumbyMcGumby]

It's indie rock n roll for MEEE. It's in my soul, it's what I need! Indie rock & roll, it's time! Lol, the title made me think of that glamorous indie rock and roll song by the killers. Great song 😂

[@deantodd8103]

"Indie" is kinda the late 1990s equivalent of punk rock, as you noted. Unlike pop punk, indie bands initially followed early punk's example of self-produced or independent label releases. (I suppose I should note that the Big Three of original punk - the Ramones, the Sex Pistols, and the Clash - did get signed to major labels). Like punk rock and any other "outsider" genre, indie rock had only two options: grow or die. It's almost inevitable that outsiders become insiders.

[@henrywallace7996]

I would say late 80s, not late 90s, but I agree with the punk comparison. Bunch of groups like The Wedding Present, Talulah Gosh, Field Mice, & Primal Scream creating their own independent pop world based on flexidiscs and fanzines.

[@TheKalaxis]

R.E.M were one of Kurt Cobain's favourite band and he was allegedly playing one of their albums when he unalived himself

[@Nu_Retr0]

reminds being 5 or 6 and being with my parents shopping at the mall in the 2000s and hearing the echo's of Modest mouse playing on their PA systems with the smell of Auntie Ann's and Great American Cookies mixed with the smell of chlorine from the mall fountains. And then stopping at EB games to get a Gamecube or a PS2 game. Good times......

[@jameydunne3920]

Indie music has definitely turned into a stylized gimmick of itself, but no more than any other genre or subgenre of music. When i was younger, (15-30) I tended to like what i liked, whether or not it was cool or suddenly became uncool, though my taste lived in Top 40 radio and whatever music i could purchase in the next town over (my town was pop. 5000, the nearby one, pop. 15,000). I still really like Right Said Fred's Up album (that's where the infamous "I'm too sexy" is from). Now that I'm in my mid 40's, i just listen to whatever i find interesting and assume it's uncool or cringe. I am surprised when I like or buy something that is actually trendy or "fire". In the process, my music and shows I've gone to has expanded all over with some of my last few shows being Arctic Monkeys (w/ Fontaines DC), NF, Joe McIntyre (from New Kids on the Block), Fozzy (w/ Ugly Kid Joe), and Wax Tailor. I have tickets to see Playboi Cardi (my nephew's favorite and 2nd time) and Rayland Baxter. Labels are helpful. They give you an idea of what kind of musical experience to expect. I'm glad these artists were able to connect with larger entities so they can reach more people and (hopefully) get better compensated for their time, talent and effort.

[@roundearthshill248]

I'm 38 years old and Seth Cohen was my musical taste maker and still influences me today. It's true.

[@matthewgallant3622]

I listen to a lot of 80s post punk rock these days, there’s just so many good quality albums out there I never had access to before streaming. The The is a great band, Love & Rockets, Joy Division, Bauhaus, etc. There’s just a raw different sound to it that’s a refreshing change from the regular D-beat punk sound and it’s still edgy and sarcastic and all of that.

[@Udontkno7]

I recommend Orange Juice. They're not post punk, but heavily forgotten and I think encapsulate that jangly indie 80s sound in the best of ways

[@matthewgallant3622]

@@Udontkno7 I like all of the 80s underground punk and whatnot. I love Sonic Youth and the Flaming lips also

[@henrywallace7996]

@@Udontkno7God bless OJ and Postcard! And Sarah for carrying the indiepop torch all the way to 1995.

[@whenfatkillsfat803]

Psychedelic Furs are another good one.

[@ejenplitobarces]

Have you listened to Felt and The Bolshoi?? Another post punk/jangle pop bands from the 80s that deserve more love

[@derzflurgenz5397]

Phantom Planet got me into music. To this day they are one of my favorites. The story of Phantom Planet, Rooney, Jason/Robert Scwhartzman and that indie surf scene was my whole identity growing up until Saosin completely changed me. Haha

[@whenfatkillsfat803]

My younger pop loving half sister had a Rooney album. Remember them?

[@derzflurgenz5397]

@@whenfatkillsfat803 I loved Rooney. Saw them a few times and still have signed Merch from them.

[@derzflurgenz5397]

@@Luke5100 Coconut Records was pretty cool. Anything the Schwartzman brothers did I ate up when I was a teen.

[@SDREHXC]

The OC was a based show and I’ll die on that hill. A lot of those shows from that era pushed indie music. The OC, One Tree Hill, every Michael Cera movie and the other movies in that genre of awkward teen coming of age story, even a lot of episodic-ish shows like House and CSI had their hand in a lot of alternative music.

[@teleskopossomnium]

based how? it was about a rich jew who did nothing all day but okay video games and read comics but somehow had the hottest girl, a rich spoiled brat, and parents who did nothing but cheat on each other (my gf back then watched it). the show sucked like most mass media pushing zero morals

[@whenfatkillsfat803]

Veronica Mars was the show The OC should have been and I'll die on that hill. The OC has not aged well at all.

[@Thomsonthetube]

Great video. I think you hit the nail on the head. I remember my older sister (who never explored any subcultures) playing the Shins for me on our way to school in 2005 and she said specifically that she heard them from Garden State lol

[@mdebyangel]

I never got into indie personally, but this video will still be an interesting watch, as are the rest of your videos!

[@junked5214]

Built To Spill never gets any credit. One of the best indie bands with so many good albums

[@EdoCFH]

I think you are quite missing the point on why the "old school" indie has become the indie we know today and it's because of the rising of acoustic guitar. Nirvana's famous MTV unplugged show and The Oasis have changed forever how we perceive rock music and indie in particular bringing a softer and more melancholic sound to a wide audience. IMHO the Brit Rock scene has done more than every band besides Nirvana for the Inde rock genre and evolution.

[@EdoCFH]

@@Luke5100 Finn is right on his stuff, no doubt.

[@KrnyMr]

Finn is always right. I'm in my 30s right now. Loved The OC as a kid and Seth Cohen was indeed my musical tastemaker back then. I'm glad he was, cause I discovered a lot of great bands thanks to this show.

[@sunny1992s]

Yeah, i pretended to hate The OC(I was a dumb 12 year old boy that had to hate anything girls like). But I didn't fit in with the nu-metal crowd, or even much of the harder emo communities. So seeing a shy depressed nerd on tv with this unique taste in music, felt like i was being seen.

[@carausiusmenapia3219]

Indie started late '70's in Britain & Ireland, after the post punk era, following on from the '79 Mod scene. Americans claiming Indie is like people from England claiming Rockabilly or Soul music. It was originally a working class inner city culture. Punk was already a pastiche by that period. Grunge was Heavy Metal Rawk through the back door, without the shredding. As far removed form original Indie as possible.

[@DBSG1976]

I was in high school in the early 90s and it felt like Indie acts were becoming very mainstream.

[@ryanjacobson2508]

By around 1995, 80's style metal was more underground than so called alternative rock... Irony.

[@SF2036]

For sure. Fugazi, Ween, Spoon, Pixies, Wilco, Pavement.. All that stuff was in heavy rotation in mags and on MTV. Not to mention college rock stations.

[@raydunn8262]

Modern Rock encompasses all this music. Punk started it all. Then New Wave. Modern Rock was coined to include both. REM changed things, they were called Indie because they were originally on indie, IRS. They were also called College Radio. As we headed to the end of the 80', Alternative start being used. From then on, Altrrnative included Grunge. It all started from Punk and Modern Rock is a good overall name.