There is now a THIRD CPU Company. (Snapdragon X Explained)

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Learn about Qualcomm's new Snapdragon X chips for Windows laptops. Could they threaten the x86 offerings from AMD and Intel?
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[@ANeMzero]

"x86 was introduced way back in 1978 as a desktop platform" unlike ARM which was introduced in 1985 as a desktop platform. ARM wasn't really made for efficiency, at least not in the beginning. It was just a happy accident that Acorn and then later ARM Holdings ran with.

[@c128stuff]

It was made for efficiency, but not entirely in the way we see that now. When Acorn ended up designing the first ARM CPU, a huge inspiration was their experience with the 6502 CPUs they had been using so far, which excelled in its efficiency, but for which development into 16bit and 32bit variations had essentially stalled by the mid 1980s (in spite of the 65816). Needing less for doing the same or more is a key design feature of the 6502, and one which Acorn totally adapted for their ARM design. In fact it is a large part of why they did not go with the at the time 2 mainstream 16/32bit microprocessor designs (x86 and 68k). So, efficiency was a huge factor even in the first ARM design.

[@elphive42]

True, but the power efficiency element way exceeeded any of the developers’ expectations. There’s a famous story of an ARM test system running perfectly on trickle power, because someone powered a peripheral on for testing and the ghost power down the lines was enough to boot the system.

[@ElShogoso]

Just being designed from the ground up as a RISC machine was already a win for the ARM. The whole point of creating load/store and RISC architectures is that they were faster, more efficient, and allowed for much better pipelining - which of course, is also a practice adopted in modern x86 processors which translate the CISC instructions into RISC microinstructions.

[@c128stuff]

@@elphive42 I think by now ARM has exceeded any of the developer's expectations in about everything. While they clearly did set out to create a future proof CPU, it ending up developing into the CPU of choice for many devices, and the only viable alternative to the x86 architecture, possibly replacing it over time, must have been a wild dream, and not a realistic expectation at the time.

[@jnharton]

@@ElShogoso Modern x86 processors prove that while a RISC design may be superior, complex instruction sets still have their place. Imagine if all of that complexity was embedded in the operating system!

[@joshuadelaughter]

Now we just need a 3rd American political party.

[@LeonSteelpaw]

Libertarians already exist (they just have no traction whatsoever)

[@joshuadelaughter]

@@LeonSteelpaw Yeah 'cause their party sucks. I would consider myself a libertarian for the most part, but I usually end up voting Republican because somehow the Libertarian party is even worse than the Republican party.

[@lyxsm]

@@joshuadelaughter Please excuse my lack of education on the Libertarian party, but assuming they politically align with their name, wouldn't the republican party be much further from their core values than the democratic party? (unless ofc the parties values are also subject to the heavily right-skewed political system in the US)

[@Meshamu]

@@LeonSteelpaw Yeah, okay, but we don't need a "Via" of political parties. Next! (I'm saying next potential third party, we don't need a "NeXT" of political parties, either.)

[@andrewwilson7671]

​@lyxsm You are correct. The GOP is much closer to the Democrat Party than Liberterian.

[@guillaumelagrange9878]

Risc V on framework babyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!

[@Beryesa.]

More exciting indeed lol

[@guillaumelagrange9878]

@@Beryesa. Yes, and guess what. You dont need to buy a hole new computer to upgrade !!!

[@philip024]

That's the spirit

[@spencersolberg]

@@guillaumelagrange9878 not sure I would consider it an "upgrade" haha

[@guillaumelagrange9878]

@@spencersolberg I mean there is up and down, but we need to wait before judging. And you can not not be excited, right?

[@williamtopping]

No matter what side you fanboy for. This is good for all of us. Competition is good for all of us. You don't want to go back to bad old days of Intel just pushing 4 cores with 5-10% improvements again, and again, and again, forever and a day.... Do you?

[@android-user]

I do :P

[@dominicharvey6048]

Even still, this has more to do with laptops than desktops

[@johndoh5182]

I'm not a fanboy, I just don't like Microsoft as a company. Hey let me know how many subscriptions you end up having to get to use one of these. Let me know when the ONLY software you can load on these is via the Microsoft Store, because that's the intention with these, for Microsoft to become the same as Apple, controlling the entire ecosystem. Just think of all those software tools you used to load for free but now to get onto that laptop you have to get it through the store that Microsoft charges money from the devs to have that app available on their store so no more freeware. Let me know when this actually does the OPPOSITE of what you say and Microsoft stops supporting X86-64 and the only way you buy an Intel or AMD processor is to use Linux. Microsoft has NEVER been about competition and that's laughable.

[@SupaaMann]

I kind of do, only for the sake of being able to milk out every drop of efficiency on an aged platform despite everyone wanting them to move on

[@DanielFerreira-ez8qd]

​@@johndoh5182 You're assuming this commenter wants Microsoft to win, instead of microsoft to compete. Everything you mention there is a future where BOTH intel and amd fail to compete with qualcomm, and somehow there is no other option for windows except qualcomm CPUS. It's a lot of mental hoops to jump through to think that's anything close to what's going to happen, let alone what we want.

[@johndm.a0252]

We have 3 companies now. There has been progress.

[@BlueEyedVibeChecker]

Intel, AMD and NVidia on GPUs, and AMD, Intel and Qualcomm on CPUs. If they made socketable Snapdragon CPUs, imagine all the combos we could make now.

[@xXTommyXx]

And Apple right?

[@infernaldaedra]

@@BlueEyedVibeChecker why would you want socketed mobile cps their performance is atrocious

[@TheXev]

We've had three x86 companies for a very long time, but Via doesn't do much with their x86 license anymore.. except let China make crappy products with it every once in a while.

[@InfernosReaper]

We've had 3 companies, it's just that Windows on ARM sucked until recently, assuming you're using a high end ARM chip of course

[@Robulite]

Ai wastes sooooo much power I don't want it in my pc....

[@motoryzen]

I could not agree more I'm so sick and tired of everything being pushed towards artificial intelligence I want actual real intelligence not some bull crap that some human thinks he created that the permanent thing then in the end he forgets he still has to micromanage from the back end and I'm not just talking about the developer the damn end-user shouldn't have to do that

[@xanderplayz3446]

I can’t wait until the AI bubble pops.

[@Wgrid93]

@@motoryzenthey are calling old shit like algorithms ai Like wow now enhanced with ai while its just a search bar

[@WolfJarl]

@@motoryzen Hear-hear. I'm fine doing my own specific searching where I decide everything, because unlike some tech bro with no sense of self-awareness I can actually use my brain independently and come up with my own solutions.

[@cberge8]

Darn, I was really hoping for a a Cyrix comeback.

[@zeuslgn]

A resurrection was briefly tried a couple of years back with ARM and RISC-V processors in the works but the Pandemic flatlined it. 😉

[@SunnyRayPL]

Technically Cyrix designs became VIA C3, and that eventually ended up in the form of Zhaoxin

[@abukes01]

Let's just hope it doesn't cost an ARM and a leg 😂

[@PCs454]

the PCs are around 1500

[@kayburcky7146]

​@@PCs454Where I'd say, either these things and Software are fckin on point day one or they'll be a giant flop for the 1000th time because they tried to shoot for MacBook prices ...

[@PCs454]

@@kayburcky7146 well the older surface books were around that price too and they had like intel i5's

[@TamasKiss-yk4st]

You can pay with your kidney, so you can hold your ARM and leg 😂

[@NVidiero]

I understood that reference [/steve_rogers]

[@Reckless150681]

Aren't there technically a lot more than 3 CPU companies? Just 3 in the consumer PC market...

[@Thumper68]

IBM makes their own still they’re badass

[@UwePieper]

Isn‘t Apple already the third consumer CPU company? Or are they not counting because you get their CPUs only in Apple products?

[@VoldoronGaming]

Apple AMD Nvidia ibm Qualcomm Samsung Intel and whoever licensed arm besides Nvidia Apple and Qualcomm

[@foundouthowtochangeytnameb1997]

MediaTek

[@lowlevelcodingch]

@@UwePieper it is arm

[@Jayandthegames]

Yes, but the Snapdragon processors are locked down to preassembled motherboards as they only come in BGA format.

[@IdealIdeas100]

Currently, but that doesnt stop the company making them swappable in the near future. Theyre not going to spend the R&D costs to make them swappable unless they see its worth it to.

[@SuperSmashDolls]

@@IdealIdeas100 They're never going to sell socketed ARM chips because that requires adopting a standard for firmware, interrupt controllers, and onboard device addressing. There's a lot of stuff that the PC platform takes for granted that on ARM gets done differently by every single SoC vendor, *per chip*, and thus motherboards have to be customized to only run one specific chip. There'd be no benefit to socketing basically any ARM processor. There are two exceptions: - That one ARM Zen 1 chip AMD had on their roadmap that was canned a year before Ryzen's launch - Apple Silicon Apple and AMD are both PC companies, so they understand the value of backwards compatibility intuitively and design their chips accordingly. We never actually saw what the ARM Ryzen looked like, but had it been successful it would have probably ran UEFI and all the ARM standards for "PC-like" hardware compatibility. Apple doesn't follow the standards *at all*, but they also have an internal policy of treating their hardware interfaces as if they were standard and not breaking them. So instead of UEFI or GIC you have iBoot and AIC, but they change rarely. This is why the Asahi Linux team is able to support the hardware as well as they do. Of course, Apple is never going to sell chips that would be useful for anyone other than themselves, and AMD only considered ARM because they thought they could court Amazon... who decided to make their own ARM chips. AMD already has an x86 cross-license so it makes no sense for them to sell ARM when x86 has a *better software ecosystem* and *always will* by virtue of the fact that it's not made for embedded shitboxes. You pick ARM because you can license and customize it. You can't socket a customized part like that.

[@Juanguar]

And so does every laptop CPU nowadays so your point only stands for desktop where ARM barely exists

[@yodal_]

Knowing Qualcomm, they will never be user-swapable and they are going to keep most information about how they work away from even kernel developers.

[@FFXfever]

Unfortunately, that's also where alot of x86 is finding its bottle neck to be in. It's struggling to get the bandwidth required between the CPU/GPU and the ram. Zen 4 was supposed to have 16 core Igpu variant but even the 7840u was getting bottlenecked by 7500mt ram. So we're gonna start seeing more and more SoC- like design for the upcoming years.

[@Michi-go5xi]

I'm very happy to see ARM on laptops other than macs To install GNU/Linux on them. No way I'll use Windows

[@RAEJDER]

Good for you, want a cookie? Good boy.

[@thripnixe]

okey

[@fledgeking]

Windows gets pissed off at regular hardware, I can't imagine how this is going to go with ARM. They would need to completely rebuild windows from the ground up for me to ever consider going back. 😂

[@RAEJDER]

@@fledgeking Theres... theres literally windows built for ARM since 2012? xD

[@fledgeking]

@RAEJDER I'm talking bigger than that- widespread adoption and, therefore, multiple variants from multiple companies in one generation being used by lots of average people. Windows is a pain in the ass with drivers and updates breaking shit.

[@ronny332]

My hope is in tuxedo to get a 100% Linux compatible notebook ready. Windows is no option. Multiple reasons.

[@GSBarlev]

I really hope we get open source performant drivers for these NPUs sooner rather than later. Not that I'm bullish on AI features being baked into the desktop, but there are plenty of fun use cases for chips that can multiply large matrices really fast. Plus: AMD's XDNA cores are FPGAs, which, if they're ever fully unlocked, could be *awesome* for retro gaming.

[@CristianoCang]

You're lucky that Tuxedo has already announced they're gonna offer a model with Linux installed then.

[@cubiss1273]

I've been running arm64 debian on Raspberry Pis without an issue for years. I'm assuming it will work with snapdragon too

[@Nordlicht05]

I often ran in problems with Linux. I use it from time to time, old laptop, hp thin Client, and two raspberries. Dumb me though there is no problem in using any Bluetooth adapter ... Than I googled, saw I needed to type in various commands in terminal to activate BT and the typical Linux people suggesting flashing the firmware for the adaptor... I really don't know why Linux is struggling 😅 This was only one of my minor problems I had over the years. Normally it takes only so e minutes when in get problems and something don't work.

[@ronny332]

@@Nordlicht05 well, ok, could be. I'm more the old Linux user, started over 2 decades ago as a student changing in the starting Windows 95 era over to the upcoming Linux world, just because I loved DOS and Windows 95 was totally crap in my eyes. It's hard to say how a Linux Distro behaves in the hands of someone, expecting the same as with Windows. I buy and create all my hardware with Linux in mind. Windows is just running on my Gaming Rig, maximal reduced, just to run Steam.

[@privacyvalued4134]

The main problem with Windows on ARM laptops is that they can generally _only_ run Windows. I have a WinARM laptop that I've literally tried every ARM-based Linux and BSD distro under the sun on and it refuses to get past the Grub bootloader. So if you want to replace Windows and run Linux or potentially dual boot or even just use Linux as a recovery OS on a USB stick when things go horribly wrong in Windows land to read drives and extract data before reimaging the OS, then you should probably hold off a while longer. It's possible that Qualcomm and/or motherboard vendors are colluding with Microsoft to explicitly block the Linux kernel from running on ARM laptops that ship with Windows.

[@GSBarlev]

Yeah, and it's a disaster for repairabilty as well. Emily explained on an old Techquickie that ARM isn't actually inherently more power-efficient than x86, but the gains are from the fact that they're almost always SoCs, with the RAM on the same package-if not die-as the CPU. Meaning: no upgrading without replacing the entire motherboard, which may also have the SSD soldered on as well.

[@ShadyHero]

try pi os or see what jeff geerling is doing

[@vartannazarian3451]

It’s because it wasn’t great that a developer wasn’t interested in tinkering with them to be able to install Linux like on the new Macs. but with the new x elite processor many will look for a way to install linux by hacking the bootloader

[@randomswedishdude]

How is that a problem with Windows on ARM... That you cannot install Linux?

[@Antimonious]

Old arm chips are nothing compared to this new chip. They're not comparable.

[@POLARTTYRTM]

There has tons of CPU manufacturers, most of them just are not in the x86 desktop market, they are in phones, calculators, routers, supercomputers, onboard computers in cars, aircraft, etc, all in ARM or RISC V.

[@ETG168]

I'm more interested in getting Linux with one of these rather than Windows

[@notjustforhackers4252]

Tuxedo has already announced a Linux machine running one of these.

[@jordangibbons2331]

When I get my hands on a laptop with one of these chips it’s gonna run Linux. I haven’t had windows on any of my computers for at least 2 years and I don’t plan on going back

[@michaelwright2986]

I was going to ask how long before we get a proper Linux system--could actually motivate me to buy a new computer.

[@bedro_0]

@@jordangibbons2331 It was announced that they support normal UEFI boot, so you likely will be able to load whatever you want

[@hanelyp1]

@@michaelwright2986 We've had linux running on ARM processors for YEARS. Including major apps running native rather than with emulation.

[@michaelwright2986]

@@hanelyp1 D'uh, yes, I was confused there with Asahi Linux, which is for Apple silicon, I think. Or have I still got it wrong?

[@Iscream4j0y]

Software dev, I can only be interested in this once packages start being supported on arm. Every time I look into it, it's all out of date, it'll happen eventually, but we're still not there yet

[@1.0]

The packages will follow suit soon. 3 years and arm will be mainstream

[@ben_car_8115]

That’s what I did with MacBooks (as a lower level dev). Based on leaks and other info I bought the last Intel MBP before they switched over to M* to make sure I would have the best computer I could while I waited for the transition. A few years later and I was able to switch without issue. Very glad I did it that way since I didn’t have to experience the other teething pains other devs did

[@JordonAM]

Once Snapdragon X Elite mini PCs start to hit the market, then I'll be interested. More active cooling would hopefully bring the chip to its full potential and be viable as a video editing machine. Would be a great (and hopefully cheaper) option to a Mac Mini/Studio

[@DigitalBenny]

I already sent a message to MinisForum to see if they have any plans. No response from them...

[@legendgood0125]

I think it's more than three. -REC -Texas instruments -Fujitsu -Amazon -Nividia I guess -Hitachi -IBM -Mediatek - AND APPLE

[@peterwstacey]

Not to forget Zhaoxin (Cyrix -> VIA -> Zhaoxin), and (if you want to get loose with the definition of processors, i.e. processors for industrial use or single-use devices like car chips, cell towers, and infrastructure stuff): Broadcom, Nordic, VIA, Bosch, Marvel, ASM Technologies, u-blox, NXP, Sierra, MosChip, and probably a lot more I can't think of right now :)

[@jayhill2193]

My TI graphics calculator uses a TI CPU and aside from that, I don't think TI plays a role outside of military and industry contracts. Same with IBM. I don't know too much of the others besides that they produce various kinds of chips, but none are relevant for consumer CPU needs. In the past there were some more x86 manufacturors that didn't flourish, Apple once had PowerPC and now does it's own thing but Apple is hardly consumer CPU manufacturor. Nvidia tries though.

[@peterwstacey]

There is also VIA (Cyrix -> VIA -> Zhaoxin). Plus plenty of others if you go away from x86 which are used in industrial, automotive, and infrastructure machines - such as Broadcom, Samsung, Marvel, ASM, Nordic, Bosch, ST-Micro, Nokia, Ericsson, u-blox, Sierra, MosChip and probably lots of others I can't think of :) (re-posted since it seems to have been deleted for some reason)

[@squirlmy]

@@jayhill2193 Apple is trying to become a consumer CPU maker. Around the same time Apple gave up PowerPC, PPC was a dominant architecture in automobile computers. Most all commercial vehicle. It's a mistake to think CPU market~PC market. "CPUs" are everywhere. There's still tons of Z80 chips (including eZ80 and virtual ones in FPGAs) in our everyday lives. I think you know this, but singling our "consumer" CPUs isn't of any consequence outside of laptop and desktop manufacturers.

[@Jimster481]

I'm not sure why the title of this video is "there is a third CPU company" . Because the reality is that there have been six or seven CPU companies for quite some time. In fact, MediaTek already has ARM CPUs in laptops for years. And RockChip has ARM CPUs in laptops for even longer. So why is Snapdragon XElite now counted as the 3rd? It should specify that this is specifically available for Windows laptops only. Because on Chrome OS there are a whole variety of CPUs.

[@veryboringname.]

This video is aimed at the general public. The vast majority of computers used by people run either Intel or AMD processors, plus some Macs in the mix. No popular retail shops sell MediaTek laptops as "nobody" is buying them relative to Intel/AMD, so they don't exist in the minds of consumers. Now there's a huge push for Snapdragon laptops; there'll probably be more of them sold in the next few months than all the ARM laptops that have been sold in the past 6 years. That is why it's counted as the third.

[@chillcopyrightfreemusic]

You win best comment. I thought ampere was the third option anyways 😂

[@squirlmy]

@@veryboringname. in their dreams. The general public is stupid. Yes you can market something as unimportant as "SnapDragon" to users, no reason to follow the sheep.

[@veryboringname.]

@@squirlmy How are your Intel/AMD shares going?

[@zyxyuv1650]

The first thing I want to see here is benchmarks showing how good Snapdragon X is at emulating X86-64. Can it emulate everything seamlessly with only a marginal performance drop? Or does X86 stuff run at half speed? Or?

[@Kmcornell23]

Other KZbinrs have uploaded videos today that show a 50% reduction in performance when using an emulator for X86/X64 programs. Native programs run well but the translation sucks.

[@circuit10]

@@Kmcornell23I’ve also seen people saying it’s about 90% as fast as native

[@marcogoncalves1073]

@@Kmcornell23 What videos have you seen? Literally all videos I've seen from good reviewers put it at around 10% difference.

[@DLeonard716]

@@marcogoncalves1073 Yeah Kmcornell is talking out of his ass lol. I've done (almost) nothing but watch reviews and live streams today, and the BIGGEST hits are 12% in graphically intense programs/games (AAA titles, video editing and rendering software, etc.) Out of the gate, you can't ask for better emulation without asking for perfection. Shit seemingly slaps.

[@Naris48]

@@marcogoncalves1073 1/2 speed? 50% reduction? 10% reduction? Compared to what? How can you say something is some percentage slower, or faster, than something completely different? Are you comparing different CPUs running at the same clock speed with the same amount of memory? Different laptops running at disparate speeds with different memory? Are you comparing the Snapdragon X to mediocre low power middle tier CPUS from Intel and/or AMD and/or Apple in vastly different laptop machines?

[@davidmeier1004]

us linux users have been daily driving arm stuff for years.

[@c128stuff]

Of course, ARM is only a few years newer than x86, dating back to the 1980s when Acorn needed a new CPU. ARM is actually inspired by the 6502 family originally, which Acorn had been using before deciding on designing their own CPU. It has seen many interesting variations and detours in the decades since. The ARM business model is also rather interesting, and a much better fit to todays world than what Intel and AMD have been doing. Going fabless and selling cores for others to integrate and use was pretty courageous at the time, and way ahead of its time, but turned out to be a good bet.

[@Roxor128]

AMD went fabless ages ago. Global Foundries is what used to be AMD's fab division.

[@c128stuff]

@@Roxor128 True, but that started over 2 decades after the first ACORN designed ARM CPU was produced by ARM's silicon partner at the time, VLSI technologies. Design of the first ARM CPU started in 1983, the first production chips were made in 1985. AMD made the first steps to becoming 'fabless' in 2006, and actually splitting off global foundries happened in 2009, almost a quarter century after the first ARM CPUs came of the production line, and more than a quarter century after Acorn decided to only design a CPU, but have someone else do the manufacturing. So... relatively speaking, AMD going fabless is pretty recent, when compared to ARM.

[@xanderplayz3446]

They didn’t try and replace it, it was for an expansion to one of their home computers to make it as powerful as a workstation.

[@c128stuff]

@@xanderplayz3446 That was their initial use case indeed. But it seems to me that was considered a stepping stone, an inbetween state, and not the desired 'end-state' which was achieved in 1987 with the introduction of the first archimedes.

[@LMacNeill]

I've been running the ARM version of Windows 11 in a Parallels Desktop VM on my M2 Pro MacBook Pro for about 15 months now, and I've had great results thus far. Admittedly, I'm not stressing it -- 90% of the time I'm using it for Microsoft Edge to test websites I write, and for MS SQL Server Studio, but I've run a few other Windows apps on here and had no problems. Haven't tried any games, but that's not what I use this computer for anyway. I have a gaming PC for that. After reading all the negative press on ARM Windows, I've been quite pleasantly surprised at how it just seems to work...

[@4RILDIGITAL]

I appreciate the thorough explanation of how Snapdragon X processors work and how they stack up against other players in the market. The AI advantage definitely seems promising.

[@theoneyoudontsee8315]

that's some heavy truth you can trust promoting other lmg youtube channels that will be the place to go for independent reviews you should wait for. unless money is not a problem and you don't have the keys to what ever $100k+ automobile your heart desires, you should wait for the ltt snapdragon X reviews and Dubble check them with gamers nexus snapdragon X reviews if you are driving a Toyota camry and renting your home that's not even a whole house!

[@mirage1857]

without gaming support on arch i will never switch to arm.

[@Juanguar]

@@extremetiehe said on arm Not on Linux Read

[@DanVibesTV]

@@Juanguar he said arch... Read :)

[@Juanguar]

@@DanVibesTV yeah exactly If gaming on arch on arm doesn’t work he won’t switch Very specific scenario

[@michaelwright2986]

@@Juanguar A scenario which has got the marketing department shaking in their boots.

[@bigfatbassinyourface]

Box86 and box64 already makes Windows games run on Android phones. Games will work just fine

[@dftfire]

Is this new CPU made by....... 🥁 LINUS TECH CHIPS? 🤣

[@svsguru2000]

The return of Cyrix? No? Oh, it's just qualcomm with their lizard cpu.

[@MakerManX]

Lizards are pretty cool

[@rigen97]

snapdragons are actually flowers not lizard

[@shanent5793]

ARM is also from the '80s. It's irrelevant because the current architectures have moved on from those initial versions.

[@SlyNine]

I've been listening, trying to find good sources. Mostly the concensus I get it, as you said, this aspect of the cpu is mostly meaningless unless those instructions are actually called on for something. CPU engineers seem to be excited tho.

[@BadContentCreator193]

Qualcomm is not just cooking mobile CPUs, they’re also cooking laptop CPUs

[@marschallblucher6197]

Let's hope the CPUs don't cook themselves.

[@windows8.1proforthewin]

@@marschallblucher6197 the Snapdragon 810 and the 888:

[@MichaelSidneyTimpson]

Coming to windows PC to you soon: non-upgradable soldered on ram and storage, with only an integrated gpu option.

[@Sezamn]

i hope that qualcomm will actually make Desktop CPUs. that you know, are actually removable from the motherboard. Same with memory and disks (i've had recently found a laptop that has a soldered disk. a low end chromebook with 16gb of disk space)

[@MichaelSidneyTimpson]

@@Sezamn If you are doing ARM based tech you cannot have it with removable memory or disks (or even GPU) because it would severely slow it down (that's the main advantage of SOC). A removable motherboard, on the other hand, could be possible, and in that case you are essentially replacing the entire computer, however.

[@Sezamn]

@@MichaelSidneyTimpson OH, in that case nvm, I'm sticking to my x86_64 pc, thank you very much.

[@MichaelSidneyTimpson]

@@Sezamn Actually Intel and AMD are starting to follow the SOC non-upgradable approach in some of their upcoming and future processors just to stay competitive, so we might not have a choice.

[@MichaelSidneyTimpson]

@@Sezamn better tell Intel since they've already started going the SOC direction too. You think I prefer not being able to upgrade my ram? I am not a cheerleader here.

[@Gementa]

5:15 - I bought my Surface Pro 11 yesterday and returned it on the same day. Most of my games were unplayable and I had some essential apps that wasn't supported, such as Google Drive and other PC tools that I need quite often. I think Arm laptops will be worth it in ~2 years when there's more support for Arm.

[@arnabkumarkundu1869]

we now have 4 competitors 1. Apple silicon 2. Snapdragon x 3. Intel 4. AMD

[@Sezamn]

honestly it's still rather 2 options rather than 4 or 3. you can buy a laptop with apple silicon or snapdragon x, but you won't be able to build a desktop with snapdragon or especially apple m chips

[@xanderplayz3446]

Mediatek and Rockchip?

[@SwapnilSoni]

Its Qualcomm Thank me later for saving your 6mins

[@11KEBAB11]

bro it literally says it in the first second at the bottom😂

[@SwapnilSoni]

@@11KEBAB11 FR lmao

[@dgsprysoup]

Didn't expect to find you here Swapnil from BePro

[@SwapnilSoni]

@@dgsprysoup dayum xD #BePro gang forever :3

[@ebridgewater]

1:28 You really should be adding the year to your older clips

[@mateowoetam]

I want to try the RISC-V StarFive JH7110 on the (in development) Framework 13 Mainboard

[@blablamannetje]

then do so!

[@p0r5ch3911]

What no reviewer spoke about yet was if the Snapdragon is able to handle 2 extra monitors (with docking station). The Air is not and for work I need two monitors. If that is possible and all my editors run, I'm actually considering buying one.

[@MichaelSidneyTimpson]

One of the advantages of Windows adopting ARM, is that also the steps to converting major apps to MacOS will be much simplier if they are already written for ARM on Windows, so in a way, it could also be good for everyone.

[@ArkSerg]

You forget to mention that success of apple rosetta 2 translation layer is partly based on special hardware tricks. From Wiki: One of the key reasons why Rosetta 2 provides such a high level of translation efficiency is the support of x86-64 memory ordering in the Apple M1 SOC.[14] The SOC also has dedicated instructions for computing x86 flags.

[@xmarkclx]

We need a second ARM chip competitor. Apple should just sell M series chips for PC use. There are a huge majority of people who will never buy a Mac but would be happy to get all the performance and efficiency the M chips provide for Windows/Linux. Free money on their end.

[@FrankHarwald]

There's Qualcom Snapdragon & then if you're fine with low-power computers then there are many SoC vendors: Broadcom makes the entire Raspberry Pi ecosystem, Texas Instrument + Newark make the BeagleBone, BananaPi is made by Shenzhen SINOVOIP, Odroid which is made by Amlogic/Samsung/Intel... & about every major semi vendor has some kind of newer ARM chips in their program - & some can also be used for desktop & workstation applications.

[@xmarkclx]

@@FrankHarwald Problem is they are all low spec compared to the Apple ones, and PC enthusiasts, those who actually spend money and the companies will get most profits from, will not leave their PC master race x86 PCs for a worse experience and worse performance low spec SoCs.

[@bradderrs6221]

This competition is very good. Apple might start actually "trying" now

[@deltacx1059]

The battery issue on modern laptops is one the manufacturer makes by putting things in the smallest chassis they can.

[@jal051]

The problem with Windows ARM isn't the ARM cpus, it's Windows. They haven't gone full on with it. Most of the software is x86 software ran on emulation.

[@reddcube]

It will be really exciting to see these chips improve Chromebooks

[@p4l4d1n7]

Wish software devs made more for Linux, considering micropenis is going to force their AI garbage later down the line either way.

[@SimonBauer7]

linux on arm is a lot better than windows on arm. and qualcomm is working to get drivers for linux.

[@Eugensson]

Lenovo usually certifies their Thinkpads for Linux, so most likely it should support it.

[@rwhite9994]

Open source will always lag behind paid for, funded by, operating systems or OSs, simply because the feature sets have many many times more people and resources behind it to get things working and working currently. I am very happy we have an open source that allows us to homebrew and actually get tons of stuff done using linux and open source developers. Who have went on to write many programs with open source that they then patent those apps. Circle of life. What we - consumers- really need is competition, very strong, very hungry competition, beyond 3 players in the trillions. We need regulations that would allow NEW players to enter the market, to make a splash without top tier predators killing them off before they could ever come to market. We need regulations that gives more powers to consumers, as well as utility and choices for which software, apis, and os we would want to use. And we need regulations that would allow a non-trillion $ company to create features in OSs that would not get buried in legal red tape long before it could ever come to market. As huge as these corporations are, and as much power and money they control, you would think there would be many times more players in this field. More players to push innovation, lower prices, and compete, compete, compete.

[@justahumanwithamask4089]

@@SimonBauer7 Qualcomm shouldn't take too long with that since, they already have drivers for arm on the linux kernel (android)

[@ngroy8636]

OpenCl (GPU) being supported? Or does Qualcomm has Cuda, ROCm like for their gpu/ hexagon

[@SullySadface]

First 10 seconds just made me remember my old Amiga, but really anything running a 68k series Motorola was pretty darn good.

[@Nevict]

More competition is always good for the consumers. :)

[@NVidiero]

I dont know if windows would manage this change like it should, but the potential of arm chips on laptops are just INSANE. Ive been using pcs since 1997 and i recently buy a m3 macbook air and is the best performance/battery life/heat piece of hardware ive ever got. Its practicality, usability and power are just insane. I hope qualcomm/MS do it at lest as well as apple did.

[@reappermen]

They can't, because a lot of the M chip performance rests on a tightly integrated software stack, which extremely limits what it can do. Basically the M chips can only really run the mainstream applications and such, everything more niche function wise either won't work, or work absolutely terrible. Each niche is small usualy, but there are thousands and thousands of niches covered by windows/x86s more open approach. Similar to how using socs greatly reduces ram options, as it has to be a prebuild package with the cpu, compared to the sea of ram options you have with non soc cous.

[@TH3C001]

Until you can walk into a Micro Center and grab a CPU in a box that isn’t from AMD or Intel and install it on compatible motherboard I only recognize 2 CPU companies. Apple users/fans will argue against this, but the M series of CPUs are part of the Apple product, and although modern laptops also have integrated soldered Intel and AMD CPUs you can still buy socketable CPUs from both of those companies. At the very least Qualcomm’s CPUs will be available in almost a dozen laptops, the M series CPU is found in one, an Apple.

[@bigfatbassinyourface]

This isnt about desktop computers. Stop feeling so threatened

[@jameshodgetts7541]

@@bigfatbassinyourface its not even just desktops, its specifically BYO gaming rigs which appears to be the only PC they'll recognise as useful....99% of computers in the wild do not fall into this category lol

[@Respectable_Username]

I can't wait to see The Labs numbers on these things! Won't be running out to buy one myself yet, but am keen to see what actual competition it provides and maybe give some thoughts towards future upgrades. Either way, I suspect CPU performance will improve quite fast over the next 2-3 years if the numbers provided by Snapdragon are to be believed, especially if Intel and AMD at least try to keep up!

[@stevemaricar4350]

The Snapdragon X seems like a decent advancement and quite a competitor to Apple's M series. The AI capabilities and the power efficiency make it a promising option.

[@Gindi4711]

Please do not spread misinformation. The instruction set has nothing to do if a certain product is more or less power efficient. The main factors that influence power effiency/performance are: a) The actual design implementation (for example the ARM Cortex X4). Note that neither Apple nor Qualcomm are using the ARM designs any more. They are just using the instruction set. This is the same way as AMD is using Intels x86 instruction set, but they both have their own designs. b) The manufacturing process (TSMC vs. Samsung vs. Intel) c) If the CPU is run at a very high voltage or low voltage. The same physical CPU could be run with 350W at 6GHz or at 35W at 2GHz d) If we are talking about real life battery life: Energy saving features So why does it not matter: In a modern CPU all instructions are first decoded by the frontend into design specific micro ops. Everything that happens after this point (branch prediction, cache/memory access, backend etc.) are all exactly the same not matter which instruction set is used. The only difference is how to decode them in the front end. Here x86 are a bit harder to decode in parallel because they have variable length. x86 will need a few more transistors to do this, but overall when looking at the whole CPU with billions of transistors this is such a tiny part that is does not really matter any more. So why are most x86 devices less efficient: Until now the regular Windows line did not support the ARM instruction set. So most CPUs ARM instruction sets where designed for low power devices (smartphones, tablets, lower power laptops (in case of Apple), but no desktop PCs. This means that their designs were optimized for power efficiency as the top priority. On the other hand Android does not support x86 (with a few exceptions a long time ago). So every CPU using x86 was developed only with laptops, desktop and servers in mind so most of them were optimized for maximum performance as the top priority. This is especially true for the current 13th/14th gen Intel Raptor Lake CPUs.

[@xanderplayz3446]

> Until now, the regular windows line… Yes they did, look at the Surface RT, Project Ventura, etc.

[@Anim4000]

ARM now can have UEFI like typical x86? Mostly ARM use uboot and locked bootloader, if PC ARM do this, it's useless since can't reinstall OS or change OS and boot to USB

[@holmes5683]

Another Mac Address video? Let's goooo

[@jakran0572]

I'm imagining a video that doesn't make me immediately turn down the volume.

[@jasonmp85]

Wow that’s crazy, Qualcomm hasn’t made CPUs until now?

[@ThePrestigeification]

Unfortunately real world benchmarks of the snapdragon X are underwhelming in power efficiency and power

[@CyFr]

Still waiting for a chip i can drop into a desktop motherboard.

[@ByteMeCompletely]

What about all the companies producing RISC-V?

[@ChrisSmith-tc4df]

That’s a metric fuck ton (for you Canucks) of cache in a consumer grade CPU. If Intel/AMD we’re to sacrifice that much expensive due area for that much cache, they might see similar gains as well.

[@lostcosmos3245]

What I want to see is an Intel or AMD x86 Laptop with an integrated snapdragon chip to offload the AI tops to that and keep the CPU and GPU free, garnering more performance.

[@MrJhwan]

Tbh I’m not super intrigued by the new kid on the block. That npu on windows only will be practically used by Microsoft to spy on you harder than they already were. Namely by making use of local image processing to figure out exactly what you’re doing on your pc without a human looking at it or needing the more direct spyware like before. That’s exactly what recall is and given that is the only major selling point aside from power efficiency I’ve seen, yeah no thanks I’ll pass. Maybe when Linux distributions that support arm are to my liking I’ll consider it, but until then I’ll stick with my ryzen laptop with Linux mint.

[@HalloBro393]

would love to see the battery life and gaming performance on this new chip

[@Sacto1654]

The big issue now is Microsoft convincing everyone to port their x86 Windows apps to Snapdragon X Elite native mode. Hopefully, there will be porting tools like Apple's Rosetta.

[@helloweener2007]

No there is not. PC = x86 architekture There are producers of computers around for all the years: Commodore, Apple for example. It was always PC / Macintosh, PC / Amiga and so on. There always existed other CPUs manufactorers for other systems. There is another producer of CPUs now, and the non-x86 World got Windows.

[@ThePainlessGamer]

If they want to capture the market in the bigger picture they need to make desktop CPUs too and they need to be socket able, Qualcomm being based on ARM and not x86 doesn’t really make them a real competitor until they are able to have the same app compatibility but they do have a lot of compatibility from Microsoft

[@prakharchaurasiya8107]

You guys really need to correct color on the host. How is the host looking worse than it was years ago.

[@MayankJairaj]

Aren't AMD, Intel and Apple - 3 already?

[@dftfire]

And you could add Samsung, MediaTek, Nvidia and Google. Though I guess it's hard to draw the line at who is a "CPU maker" and who simply designs their own CPUs, but gets other companies to produce them... 🤔

[@jameshodgetts7541]

@@dftfire Even then, if you exclude those who just design and don't produce, AMD would be firmly out of the running too, as they're fabless too...

[@marisakirisame867]

Now just hope there is replaceable ARM CPU with their cool sockets

[@michaelmcgee7683]

So many asterisks to their performance. When comparing against x86, they map it against power consumption where ARM architecture naturally has an advantage. When comparing to Apple Silicon, they compare their 12-core cpu against the Apple’s 8-core cpu (when apple does have an M3 12-core), and claims they handily beat them in multi-threading tasks. That is to say, I am happy to see the newcomer in the market but there is heavy spin in their marketing to make it seem like they are the frontrunner in performance, where their real strength will be the cpus availability.

[@SlyNine]

X86 is such a small part of the cpu. It's not like machine code for basic tasks are more efficient. Read, store, etc. Mostly it's about keeping the clock speed within the efficiency envelope.

[@gl1tch133]

Now, they only need to offer the Desktop CPU Version.

[@jim4556]

I'm ultra excited for this. Thin clients that don't suck. Power consumption is a big deal for those. You end up paying alot in energy for a pc that never turns off and sits partially idle alot of its life. That carries over into industrial PCs that need to be passively cooled. Intel versions are thermal throttle city on those. Aaand home assistant is now adding local chat gpt for a local amazon alexa equivalent. Thinclients typically take 30 seconds to process and respond because of their poor AI performance. Again power consumption is a big deal for those applications.

[@abdulhkeem.alhadhrami]

Now do one with the benefits of switching to CAMM2 instead of using DDR dimms.

[@NeverlandSystemZor]

We NEED more options and more alternatives.

[@lameashecc467]

Nah, not letting such a pervasive risk anywhere near me... no thanks AI overlords...

[@ChrisSmith-tc4df]

Those earliest processors were built upon an NMOS fabrication process, so the power consumption was more or less largely built-in to the design. The Instruction Set Architecture (ISA) had only a minor effect on power consumption. This is in contrast to modern processors built upon a CMOS fabrication process where power consumption drops precipitously if less computational work is being performed. (Theoretically down to zero, but leakage. 😐)

[@JonathanBradysouth-africa]

Bless you Riley...one of the few people paid to act professionally awkward while delivering spats of large info all at once.

[@Milos596]

Without dedicated graphics, i say no.

[@Sezamn]

Without an actual desktop CPU, and a standalone motherboard (not soldered), i will also decline this offer.

[@t8polestarcyan22]

More like forth or so cause there used be a third, Cyrix. Our first Windows (and DOS) PC was a Cyrix 486.

[@aliasoma]

Fun fact: Qualcomm bought a chip company called Nuvia, which was founded by the 3 primary architects of Apple Silicon.

[@MichaelSkinner-e9j]

If they never killed project ARA, we would’ve had this a long time ago

[@TraffitiOnFortnite]

Honestly if they can make a stable cpu that performs just like or even better than the Apple M3 chip then im definitely down to buy a laptop like that with windows. I'd be interested.

[@marsovac]

I can be persuaded when single core desktop and game performance is on par with x86. Multicore is mostly useless to me. But I cheer for that happening.

[@AlessandroNava1]

2:51 end of sponsor break

[@NicolasChapadosGirard]

Imagine doing a quiky about it and on the same set talking about it in quick bits on another channel that is genius!

[@Roxor128]

I'd say the title/thumbnail is misleading. When I saw "Intel, AMD, [mystery company]", I thought it was going to mean a new x86 manufacturer (probably some Chinese one that's ignoring any licensing garbage). If they're using ARM, RISC-V or anything else, they're not really competing with Intel and AMD, as the different architecture puts them in a different market.

[@TheMR-777]

So now its a 3-Body Problem

[@majinvegitto4238]

The answer I await is why? Why would I buy a Windows machine that lacks the main selling point of long backward compatibility. Just get a Mac or Linux system if I don't need Windows backward compatibility.

[@parpification]

wow i must admit, the greenscreen quality did really take a massive dip since the other LMG projects :)

[@LeonSteelpaw]

Competition will breed excellence but 30 fps is still 30 fps shy of the standard 60fps to be smooth and reliable gameplay

[@leonidas14775]

When it comes to talk about whether people can install linux on these, or they're locked down like those Windows RT tablets, the silence is deafening.

[@plankalkulcompiler9468]

What about using it with a Linux distribution? It would be even more superb!

[@adilogan]

Finally a pc where fans won't go full throttle when viewing 4k video on youtube.

[@elbeetlebeasto]

Sooooooo where's the LTT review for the new Surface devices? Isn't the review embargo over now?

[@marschallblucher6197]

They're probably still trying them out before actually making the review.

Get a M3 Pro and use ARM Windows on a VM. You’ll have the best of both worlds.

[@V3ntilator]

Still not like 1990's. Intel, Cyrix, AMD, IBM, Motorola and probably more CPU makers.

[@nzoomed]

Still only 2 major x86 CPU companies, but there are actually way more companies that make ARM chips than just Qualcomm alone.

[@denvera1g1]

I want to get my hands on this. My eyes were opened when i compared my personal M1 Mac Mini, to my work's 4750U based thinkpad something or other; and just let me say, i'm no longer an ARM shill. I was SHOCKED that my 5nm M1 Mac Mini was both SLOWER and used MORE POWER from the wall than the laptop at work when transcoding 1080p60 MPEG2 to H265 using the CPU only(offers better compression:quality ratio than VideoToolBox and VCE/QuickSync) Yea, i had to ask to bring the laptop home to test it with the same equiment to verify. My M1 Mac Mini took 1H9M to transcode this 1H video, using 33Wh from the wall. The work laptop took 1H4M(negligible) but used only 28Wh I still do no understand how this is possible 1: The M1 is on 5nm, the 4750U is 7nm so should have a 10-30% efficiency lead even if they were both X86/both ARM 2: The M1 uses highly integrated parts and a quiet fan, the laptop used SODIMM, M.2, and a fan you could hear(slightly) from across the room(Mac was basically not audible sitting next to it) 3: For part of the test the laptop was powering a freaking screen, and i'm sure the battery charge controller doesnt reduce the power it pulls from the wall. All this ads up to me thinking i did something wrong, but i ran it over and over. I eventually bought a 3950X to dedicate to my recording server and just use my Mac Mini as my desktop, this ended up being noticably less efficient than both the 4750u and M1, but it was far more powerful and allowed me to schedule transcodes when recordings werent taking place better ensuring stability during recordings. While never able to beat the 4750u, it did come close to the M1 at 39Wh/file(adjusted, because i had to run 2 simultaneous trans codes to use all 32 threads, it used 79.something Wh to transcode the same file with 2 different names)

[@greggmacdonald9644]

And that 3950X will be 3 generations old, next month. I bet you'd see a big jump in performance, while using less power, if you got yourself a 9950X CPU (and mb + ddr5) in July.

[@denvera1g1]

@@greggmacdonald9644 Probably, bu hear me out. An M4 iPad Pro, with 24GB of RAM, and MacOS Built in UPS, could act as my KVM for other devices in my rack.

[@UltraZelda64]

If anything, this might be a nice platform to build a laptop on to run Linux. I see no real reason to run Windows on ARM though, it will have to emulate all of those Windows programs that people use Windows to be able to run in the first place. At least with Linux, while there may not be any distributions targeting this platform, if ARM in desktops and laptops takes off Linux distributions supporting it will probably quickly follow.