Mazzer Philos | Unboxing & First Impressions

I've been a fan of Mazzer grinders for my entire coffee career, they actually produced the very first espresso grinder that started this whole thing. So when they reached out and offered to send me a loaner prototype of their new Philos I happily accepted.
Chapters
[00:00] Unboxing
[04:48] Insides & Setup
[06:01] Third Wave Water Sponsor
[06:45] First Impressions
[07:11] Build, Feel & Aesthetic
[07:43] Factory Burr Options
[08:39] Workflow & Grinding
[10:03] Prototype Vibration
[10:37] Final Thoughts
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#espresso #mazzerphilos #sprometheus #coffee

[@db7069]

Espresso, standard transmission sports cars and now a Benchmade knife!!! You really are a brother from a different mother. Excellent review and video by the way.

[@Sprometheus]

Haha I contain multitudes! Thank you my friend!

[@mauort6870]

Benchmade for life.. one of mine is going on 15 years old.

[@davidhunternyc1]

In your full review, I hope you record the sound of the grinder. I know that accurate sound is difficult to record for KZbin but it would give us the option to listen with headphones on to get a better idea. I think that recording the sound of espresso machines is important too, so we can get a sense of how differently vibration and rotary pumps sound in different machines.

[@Sprometheus]

Yes absolutely. I toyed with the idea of recording it as-is, but it’s intense. With the vibration it has a low hum, and the steel cup on a steel stand rattles at a frequency that sounds like a bell ringing. And because I was told this was a known issue and in the process of being fixed I felt it wasn’t fair to Mazzer to put that out there.

[@davidhunternyc1]

@@Sprometheus Thanks for your considered reply. Can't way to see your full review.

[@chen8857]

The alignment is definitely not impacted by how tight you screw the winged screws. Only if you wouldn‘t screw them in fully it would impact. The pairs of effective surfaces is engineered in a way that it does not change the angle of the alignment.

[@SetaRossa83]

Great concise review, it's been a true joy to watch

[@Sprometheus]

Thank you my friend, much appreciated!

[@erikasoldit]

For 64mm burrs that thing looks huge!!! Wow!

[@JeepBigE]

Nice video! I look forward to the full review.

[@Sprometheus]

Thank, looking forward to posting it in the best future.

[@knottymatt]

Cheers for the good vid. Looking forward to the full review. Hey where’d you get your rustic coffee cups I’ve seen in random videos? Keen

[@fillflashdetailer8838]

Wow, that's a gorgeous machine. It's a bit too large and bulky (especially for a 64mm grinder) for my setup, but it looks exceptionally high-end and very well-engineered.

[@iconindexsymbol]

Except for wishing there was an optional portafilter fork, that’s one of the best looking grinders I’ve seen!

[@Sprometheus]

I’m with you. I asked about it, and they don’t recommend grinding directly into a portafilter as the magnets, materials and design allow for the lowest possible retention. But I have been grinding into a portafilter that I hold without issue.

[@chrismccannIRL]

Excellent review and looks high quality. Did it look like the rear adjustment grind setting dial wasn’t overly uniform along the edge?

[@c4li]

when you look at this grinder you would expect at least 83mm burrs. It's massive.

[@Sprometheus]

It’s definitely got some serious girth. When you remove the casing it’s almost shocking how small the set looks inside.

[@brucesherborne408]

Looks like a nice piece of kit

[@Sprometheus]

Definitely a real solid addition to the grinder market.

[@SomeRandomBarista]

Can't wait to see the full review. You mentionned the grinder was slow, will we have abtime estimmation to grind an 18g dose of light roast coffee at espresso setting ?

[@Sprometheus]

Yeah it’s seemingly slow by design, with the auger feeding design. I don’t recall the timeframe but I will definitely retest it and run a comparison as well.

[@kevinalvarado3724]

Pretty interesting. I'm still using my Eureka Silenzio for espresso, but maybe in a few years I might incline to buy this Mazzer, it will depend on the availability here in France. Even though the P64 is my dream grinder, I think I'd be happy with this Mazzer as the last grinder I'd buy.

[@allen.t]

That TWW water jug is pretty sweet.

[@Sprometheus]

Thanks! I asked for one because I just couldn’t see myself mixing it in plastic bottles.

[@TheHabadababa]

Really looking forward for the burrs, I think they would make a great addition to my setup since I use the super jolly I converted to single dosing for both espresso and pourover. Couldn't get myself to spend more than what I paid for my grinder and machine on some SSP burrs but mazzer burrs tend to be reasonably priced, they might be a budget ssp MP that blows the super old mazzer burrs in my jolly out of the water when it comes to clarity

[@Sprometheus]

Yeah the Mazzer’s are definitely aiming for a similar cup profiles and they seem to be delivering, but I guess I should run a side by side tasting and see.

[@grahamwhiting6567]

Thank you for a concise firdt look at the Philos. When you have used it for a while, I would like to know how you find ths workflow and ergonomics. I think that they have been well considered Ns there is also a good discussion of this grinders ergonomics on the Mazzer website. As s qualified mech. Eng. I can reassure you thst the burr alignment jas been carefully considered. They will CNC the front shell to the rear body mounting on a common axis and they have a jig whixh checks every grinder burr faces for flatness and parallelism.

[@Sprometheus]

Workflow is definitely a big discussion for sure. And I will absolutely be testing the alignment, and sharing my findings on that front as well.

[@owenrogers9528]

Mazzer makes solid grinders, and that is an absolute unit. You raise an excellent point with respect to the wingnuts. I would prefer a long hexnut that can be tightened with a torque wrench for consistency -- measurable, repeatable...

[@jackfinnigan73]

I believe this is true only in respect to not controlled surfaces. Otherwise you have no effect with different tightening, as long as they are both screwed in

[@newtonpeskin154]

I'm eager to hear your insights on how you think it stacks up against the Timemore Sculptor 064S or 078S. While the 078S might have an advantage with its larger burrs, I'm particularly intrigued to learn about their comparison before any seasoning takes place.

[@jmvdigital]

The vibration you mention isn’t surprising given the visible wobble of the axle end at 10:17 when you run it without the front burr. Seems like a tolerance or balance issue.

[@SebastiaanSwinkels]

Looks interesting. Not sold on the design yet, or the adjustment dial on the rear. If you have your grinder in between other stuff on your counter, you're bound to knock something off eventually when reaching behind the dang thing adjust the grind size. For the time being, my 2 Mazzer SJs and 1 Mazzer Mini are safe it seems haha

[@seansweet4883]

How would you compare this to the Zerno (if you’ve played with one)? I think both have 64 mm burrs.

[@The_Coffee_Rabbit_Hole]

It look interesting , thats nice that they ship it with 2 sets of burrs ... i bougth the Ak74 from Starseeker , ill be the first in north america to have it for review , interesting model too

[@davidrogala7597]

looks good

[@fastcoffee9878]

I just installed Redbirds on my '98 Major with good results. But I will have to follow this closely. 🧐

[@0whitestone]

I wonder if that asymmetrical augur is causing the vibration, seems like it might be hard to balance

[@brendansmith]

I might have to snag one

[@_Brewn]

Cant wait for mine to arrive, i'm really convinced, that this is the perfect grinder for me and will retire my P64. Got a Black one but damn silver is sexy too! here in germany we got 50hz 1400rpm so i hope units wont vibrate as much :/

[@Sprometheus]

I have faith that Mazzer will handle it, and I think the vibration issue is only on the US versions as it has a higher hertz motor and the anti vibration feet and motor housing wasn’t tuned properly for that.

[@notabenex1]

Where did you order it in EU?

[@_Brewn]

@@notabenex1 Moba coffee in germany :)

[@jackdixon1761]

So I went with the Bianca V3 following your video and now I’m looking to upgrade my Mignon Specialita. Size wise how does this compare? It looks absolutely huge but it seems to tick a lot of boxes for me. Offering a quality single dose grinder that seemingly sits between the Chinese and the super premium models. Do you think I’d find this a good upgrade?

[@greysuit17]

This is very intriguing, would like to know the taste profile on the burrs for both espresso & drip. I’m very curious about the new EK Omnia, seems like a huge upgrade fron the 43.

[@Sprometheus]

I’ll definitely cover that in the full video. And yeah, I need to reach out to Mahlkonig and see what I can do.

[@jameshagon6798]

From an purely ergonomic point of view I think it’s absolutely wild they’ve stuck the grind adjustment on the back. It feels like it’s the wrong way round - surely you’ll be adjusting your grind far more often than you’d be swapping burrs? PS: Standout video as always cap’n 🫡

[@jerrygarcia7649]

What scale is that 👀 Also dial in video would be great. And speed of grinder in comparison to both burrs. As well as taste profiles between burrs. Love the channel

[@JPC326]

Comparaison with the Zerno would be awsome !

[@Sprometheus]

Absolutely. Just need my place in line to come up faster haha.

[@Kats072307]

It's one of the grinders I' ve been really looking forward to get to know, and possibly purchase. I own a Ceado E6p (not a single dose grinder) with 64 mm flat burrs. I am happy with it. Although I am really looking forward for my first single dose grinder. And since Kafatek Monolith Flat Max comes at a unique price tag 😄, I've been looking at 2 single dose grinders both with Mazzer burrs, the Mazzer Philos and the Weber Key mk2. Since my Ceado can give nice balanced shots, I was looking for more clarity. I am not sure which one of the two will give me more interesting espresso (and only espresso), with more different characteristics from the Ceado and which one would you recommend. Although, I have seen that your experience with the Weber was a bit traumatic

[@Sprometheus]

Haha well I can’t recommend Weber personally, some folks enjoy them. But I will say the stock burrs on the Philos will give you a ton more clarity in your cup than the 83mm conicals in the Key.

[@mtpastor4546]

This will be my next grinder For domestic high end user market, atheistic approach is essential. I personally think Mazzer got the spot. Single dose, dual burr sets, premium material, atheistic… and the brand Mazzer.

[@rxonmymind8362]

Please do a db reading on this and tolerance check. The Zerno in terms of tolerance is impressive. The Eureka Silenzo, Niche, Weber, Monoloth and Kitchenaid espresso grinder (KCG8433ER at 67db) are all exceptional. The style and looks of the Mazzer is spot on. Hopefully it comes in different colors. I'm ao tried of machines looking like they came out of a dentist office.

[@jules5350]

Nice review, good looking grinder. I still don’t understand the decision to put the adjustment dial on the back of the grinder… also with that size, they should have used the 80mm burrs….

[@bitorem]

It looks like the release date for the Mazzer Philos was delayed. Any recommendations for alternative grinders to match up with the Linea Mini?

[@sunvalleydrivemusic]

I’d like to hear how loud it is, how long to grind shots, how hard to clean, how hard to align the burrs. Thanks Spro!

[@milos.sladecka]

It would be awesome to compare esspreso made by these burrs: Mazzer 1200, SSP Multipurpose, SSP Lab Sweet v.3 and Option-O Mizen Omni 64mm.

[@chongli297]

One thing I'd like to know is what the torque specs and are on those wingnuts. If Mazzer or someone else could do a bunch of testing on burr alignment and determine the optimal torque values on those nuts for maintaining perfect alignment, that would be great!

[@trevorkurzhal7273]

Cereal box joke was A+.

[@Sprometheus]

Much appreciated. I miss that level of breakfast excitement, haha.

[@fastcoffee9878]

Those were THE days

[@nittygritty7434]

Can you check if SSP burrs fit in the Philos? Also is the 1600 RPM too high overall in sense it creates fines and higher body than if peaked at around 1400?

[@Sprometheus]

Though I haven’t checked officially, the screw holes do line up with a set of SSP burrs. And I did bring this up to Mazzer, the speed and fines, and they told me the auger feed rate has more of an effect on the grind size distribution than the speed. But you can bet I will test that.

[@Hemshemsems]

Augers are the new new feature. Spro can you go into it more if you think pre crush or longer travel distance through the auger would be best way to slow the feed down. Why can't the shute have a delaying effect too, so less backup of beans can be mitigated?

[@Sprometheus]

Good questions, and they definitely seem like a feature that’s having its time in the spotlight. I want to do a deep dive on them, but it’ll likely have to wait until I get the Zerno to test multiple on the same grinder.

[@Hemshemsems]

@@Sprometheus Yeah Zerno would be the best to compare it too. Grinders would look more odd the longer the auger is. But to me many of them seem too short, but the blade on the Philos would slow them down more than more blade "threads".

[@Hammi4Real]

Ngl the grinder looks like a doomsday device which every qualified operator must take great protective care of every micro adjustment on its meticulously constructed dial. Almost sci-fi, all it needs is a big old clock on front. Aside from this, this is quite the presence. So flush, and machine brushed to almost impossible lengths save for a few plastic caps here and there. This is literally bling on a counter top and it's certainly eye catching. How do I elaborate.

[@RiverbankHomestead]

Will you do a test of running the grinder without the burrs to see how effective the prebraking auger is?

[@Sprometheus]

100%

[@grahamwhiting6567]

I've seen a few reviewers do this, but it's meaningless. This is because the burrs can commonly hold back or recycle the beans in use. Some beans in whole or part will get held at the end of the auger and will be either further chipped or turned over and recycled in front of the burrs. Makers know this and will allow some of it to happen at various grind settings.

[@toddpower4674]

Something else that's really nice that I won't own. Just bought a meat slicer today and haven't told my wife yet.

[@Sprometheus]

Oooh, as a fellow gourmond I get you. I just bought a Le Creuset bread oven for some sourdough action.

[@ronaldorodan8762]

@@SprometheusMr would you share the sourdough recipe? Lil carb action wont kill me 😅

[@ggusta1]

Have not read all the comments but does this have any anti static technology? Is RDT necessary? It's beautiful but for 64mm it's huge. Feeling like there's more features just over the horizon that may change the game. It will be interesting to see how well this is received.

[@robz9988]

Wondering how you think it compares to the Zerno

[@cheekster777]

Thank you my friend.

[@Sprometheus]

Of course, thanks for watching and have a great weekend.

[@cheekster777]

@@Sprometheus - You too Buddy. 👊🏻

[@MGM_Think]

I like it, I just need some disposable income, it will most likely be end game grinder that won't be replaced ever.

[@kevinweitz3414]

One of my other hobbies besides coffee is pocket knives, another form of functional art. It pains me to see you open all of these boxes with that dull serrated knife. Happy to give you some suggestions if you ever want 🤙

[@Sprometheus]

Haha, at this point because I got so many complaints about it I’m using it purely as engagement bait. I have a handful of proper box cutters haha.

[@bitorem]

I just purchased a new linea mini and want to pair it with a single dose grinder. My 2 favorites so far from videos are DF83-V and Mazzer Philos. Any recommendations on one over the other? Strictly for espresso milk based drinks (cortados and cappuccinos).

[@Sprometheus]

I think they’re both solid options. Both have a huge amount of burr choices being 64mm. But I’d ask yourself if you want RPM control, because only one has that.

[@bitorem]

@@Sprometheus Is the Acaia Orbit Grinder also on the same level or do you think Mazzer Philos and DF83-v have an edge?

[@JonFairhurst]

I’ve been holding off from upgrading from the Niche Zero. The Philos might just be my Goldilocks grinder. Some grinders, like from Weber and Option-O have huge price tags, and I’m leaning more towards a vertical/auger design. Other Chinese sourced grinders seem a bit cheap. I strongly considered the Zerno, but I’m not a fan of their sales and funding model. The Philos, on the other hand, is from a major, traditional manufacturer, hits a sweet spot for price and quality, has a vertical/auger design, and includes a burr set that potentially balances clarity and body. I like the access and rear adjustment, since it would be easy to clean with no adjustment changes and no dust in the adjustment threads. The vibration is the one flaw, and it seems that a fix is coming before release. It’s definitely my next big, coffee purchase. Any clue on availability?

[@Sprometheus]

Yeah I get you. And I do agree I find the buying a spot in line to buy a grinder isn’t ideal and feels a bit…Supreme-ish. Time will tell if it’s worth it. But that said, the Mazzer is definitely one worth watching. Still working with it and playing around and I’ll have some short tests to do once the final one lands but I have high expectations. In terms of availability I think it’s supposed to drop for sale online this month or next.

[@konstantinosvakouftsis4086]

Can this grind for Turkish/Greek?

[@BillB33525]

Suprised it's not variable speed. What do you think of the 1400 rpm speed?

[@Sprometheus]

I asked about that directly when I met with Mazzer. Their explanation was interesting. For one, they said the grinder had been in R&D since 2020 and the whole RPM popularity didn’t pop off until 2021, 2022 and it would send them back to the drawing board. But they also said that in their tests the auger feed rate played a large enough role in grind quality, plus they feel like adding more failure points isn’t something they wanted to do.

[@RichardPringle9]

Slow feed test to see how much the augur makes a difference

[@Sprometheus]

That will happen for sure.

[@madskongensgaard1066]

+1 for this@@Sprometheus

[@s96822]

Philos is not variable speed is it?

[@Niikolaii]

Is this a prototype u tested in the video like outcoffeeshelter or ist this the final production unit? edit: you mentioned at the end of the video that’s a US prototype.

[@Sprometheus]

Indeed! And I think they’re in Turkey or somewhere else outside of the U.S. so like have an EU version.

[@Niikolaii]

@@Sprometheus they live in the UK now, moved from Turkey indeed.

[@user-od4op6ng9y]

How is not standard by now to have screwless burr sets? Having one even grinding surface makes more sense, as grinds are notorious for building up and sitting in those holes for a long time unless you clean frequently. A magnet with a locking mechanism wouldn't be hard to do.

[@UltramaticOrange]

Putting the grind adjustment at the rear, where it'll hide under cabinets, I think will be a non-starter for most people.

[@Biomechan]

Philos seems very friendly

[@jonathanfong3033]

BR > M

[@nichj487]

Any idea of the release date? I emailed Mazzer in December and they still seemed confident to have it for sale in February, but I’m hearing whispers that it’s being delayed…

[@radstein3705]

In Germany, some stores state communicate a start of Philos sales at end of march.

[@JeepBigE]

I got a reply from Mazzer in January and they stated that production was to begin in March with sales possibly in May. The price would be around $930 US dollars.

[@weaverhchrist]

64mm burrs? Regardless, I would be astonished if the price is anywhere close to $1,000 as mentioned in this vid!

[@Sprometheus]

I was surprised to hear it myself, and maybe things will change but I asked for a price point estimate and that’s what I was told

[@alanroderick7153]

Thank you. I think it looks great, and materials do seem to be of good quality from the vid. Do not think it is for me as all my counter tops have cupboards above and I think trying to see the scale on the back would drive me insane. Looking forward to see your full review.

[@Sprometheus]

Yeah I think having cabinets or even not being on the taller side could possibly affect someone’s ability to adjust and use the grinder effectively.

[@JonFairhurst]

I think that the rear adjustment is cool. Cleaning will be a breeze with no need to recalibrate and no risk of dust in the adjustment threads. Yes, you would need to look at the numbers when going to a different bean, but this probably isn’t a daily thing. For fine tuning, we’re just nudging things, which can be done by feel. I also have cabinets, and I think it will work great. 😀

[@Sprometheus]

@@JonFairhurst absolutely. Like most things, there’s pros and cons.

[@JonFairhurst]

I also have cabinets, they are 16-inches above the counter and extend 12-inches from the wall. I’m 6-2. I play-acted doing the adjustment, based on my educated guess of where the adjustment dial would be, knowing the published dimensions. I might need to tilt my head slightly to see it, or pull the grinder out 2-3 inches, but it’s borderline, and tilting my head to look there seemed natural and would become an unconscious behavior. I see it as a feature, rather than a bug. I also like the aesthetics of having the dial and numbers at the back. It adds to the elegance of the design, as compared to a numbered dial on its face, which gives a more technical/industrial look to a product. Kind of like in the 80s when products were designed with prominent allen bolt heads, which were often fake!

[@gotters]

Looks like a handheld Dyson hoover.

[@averagedave1953]

How is this compare to DF83V? Very similar price range

[@JeepBigE]

It will be nearly $200 more than the 83V, but I'm sure the build quality of the Philos will way ahead of the 83V.

[@madskongensgaard1066]

DF83V has variable RPM, a somewhat in-effective auger, but larger burrs.

[@hansvancauwenbergh]

⁠@@JeepBigEYes build quality speaks for Philos but burra size speaks for DF83v. Heard however a lot of alignment issues with the DF83v

[@hansvancauwenbergh]

Thanks for the nice unboxing video! Any time indication of the full review?

[@s96822]

I owned a mazzer mini, a great solid grinder. unfortunately it was stolen. you need not worry about clarity as you speak with much eloquence and clarity.

[@likes_too7538]

Hi, I‘m currently thinking of upgrading my espressomachine (Lelit Anna PID), to either an Ascaso Steel UNO PID or Profitec Go. I absolutley love the asthetics of the Ascaso and hate the buttons of the GO, but I have concerns about the temp stability of the thermoblock. Any advises or experiences? THX!

[@tatemazer]

damn that brushed finish is hot

[@Sprometheus]

It looks nice for sure, but it’s super hard to photograph and film, so a black final release version will be here soon-ish.

[@jackfinnigan73]

​@@Sprometheus how does it feel tactile?

[@johnl.7582]

No keen on the reacharound grind dial. Weird ergonomic choice.

[@Sprometheus]

I can see that, and I was pretty skeptical too. But it has its pros and cons.

[@kaush23]

Feels like vertically mounted flat burrs (VMFB's) are the new hotness on single dose home grinders. Personally, I'm leaning towards the new DF83V over this primarily because the variable speed and secondarily because I much prefer the grind dial at the front. Not that I care much for variable speed (yet), it's just I prefer lower speeds (under 800 rpm) on vertically mounted flat burrs because gravity takes care of most of the job in expelling grinds from the burrs. So I figure might as well engineer VMFB grinders to spin slower and thus introduce less heat than their horizontally mounted counterparts. Great first impressions, and looking forward to the full review!

[@dr7246]

It’s a good looking grinder. But pop it on an equatorial mount, and it’s looks like a slick, travel, Newtonian reflector!!😂 I really wish more grinder manufacturers- that target high end home use- would follow what Weber and Acaia did in having universal voltage support. Granted it’s probably not a priority for most people. I’m just in the market for for a grinder and am moving over seas later this year. $4k for the EG1 is too much and I’m not hearing great things about the Orbit. The Philos would be tempting if it had that support

[@Sprometheus]

Haha I had to Google that reference! And yes, universal voltage support should be standard once you reach a certain echelon of grinder. It would be nice to see that.

[@bjfeerus]

💖💖💖 Love Is Important ☕☕☕ .... .

[@Sprometheus]

Indeed my friend!

[@38201270298]

I don't care how it works, I'll buy it for the look!😂

[@Sprometheus]

Haha, fair enough. It definitely has a lot of character and style compared to many other grinders out there.

[@lukeclayton7578]

It’s pretty but meh. I don’t understand the value over the Fellow Ode 2. It looks more form over function, and eventually an annoyance to live with. I do not know the price of this machine but I imagine it will be in the exotic range given the materials.

[@MichaelZuskin]

Looks like 98 mm, but it's only 64!

[@Sprometheus]

It’s definitely got some serious diameter!

[@santiago71280]

I think I am going to sell my Lux D to get the Philos

[@JJ-gm4ck]

under $1000?

[@Sprometheus]

I was told at or around $1000. Currently unconfirmed but it may be an intro price that could go up in the future.

[@frapefro5591]

Really? This huge grinder, weihging 15kg, has only _64mm_ Burrs? 😳

[@pilosopo25]

Made in china or Italy?

[@SetaRossa83]

Fully Italy like all Mazzers

[@pietjepuk5427]

Sharpen your blade.😂

[@markholm7050]

Can’t say that little brush for cleaning out the chute is a plus. It screams “there’s hold up in here!” Many KZbinrs doing retention tests do it all wrong. Doing it right is a bit laborious, but doing it wrong is pointless. The right way? Clean out the grinder completely before each grind. Weigh the beans precisely. Grind. Weigh the grinds precisely. Subtract. If you don’t clean out before each grinding, you are not measuring retention, just grind to grind variability. If you don’t believe me, do this thought experiment. Imagine you have a grinder with 1 gram retention. Grind 100 batches of coffee without cleaning between batches. Where are the 100 grams of retention? Inside the grinder?

[@Sprometheus]

Every grinder I’ve ever touched has dead space that fills with coffee grinds after the first few uses, and once that does the retention drops. I see you point here, but I think your expectation is not realistic. Zero retention is a marketing term, but regardless you should be cleaning out your grinder dead space regularly to avoid stale coffee or oils becoming rancid, but I think testing retention in the way a grinder will be used is more important than splitting hairs.

[@markholm7050]

@@Sprometheus I’m not splitting hairs. Testing repeated doses without cleaning the grinder is not measuring retention. As you said, dead spaces in the grinder fill up, so that in practice, net retention goes to zero for any grinder. All you can measure without cleaning is the variability in retention. I know a lot of people measure retention the way I say is wrong, but it is possible for a lot of people to be mistaken. In any case, retention all by itself is not such a bad thing. If the grounds just sat in there filling up dead space, but did not affect the taste of subsequent grind batches, there would be no reason to complain. As you mentioned, the problem comes from the trapped coffee going rancid and then transferring off flavors to subsequent batches. It’s the trapped grounds that are the whole reason for interest in retention. A test method that does not measure them is pointless.

[@Sprometheus]

@@markholm7050 this sounds a lot like splitting hairs… I mean, my point is clean your grinder regularly to avoid rancid coffee, but if you can taste trace amounts of other coffees in different doses you need to donate your tongue to science to be studied.

[@markholm7050]

@@Sprometheus So, one take away is, “clean out your grinder frequently” and when reviewing grinders, ease of cleaning should be a bullet item. Another takeaway is, if grinder manufacturers could get true retention low enough, cleaning might not be necessary.

[@francisvaughan7460]

Retention comes in two parts. From a clean grinder there will always be some filling of crevices and dead spaces. Some of this will stick, and some of it will be pushed though on the next grind. The first few grinds from clean will always show more retention. After things settles down there will be steady state of retention from grind to grind that is the pipeline effect, with the residue from the last grind being pushed out. This may give the illusion of zero retention. Knowing what both of these values, what you might call the static retention and dynamic retention, is probably the important question. Grinds that are filling crevices (static retention) will likely stay there until the grinder is disassembled for a proper cleaning again. Given enough time they may oxidise and even go rancid. But if they stay put, they won't matter. There could be a worst case, where these stuck grinds do slowly work their way out, and maybe could become an issue. But given just about every grinder on the planet has this problem, I suspect it is in the margins. Working out the static retention is not too hard. Start clean and weigh output versus input over a few grinds the output to work out what has stayed. Dynamic retention, the grind to grind pipeline of retention, is not so easy. Maybe you could dye some beans and see how much contaminates the next grind. Radio labelling the beans would be a great way, but even for a devout coffee geek likely a bridge too far. Disassembly and trying to estimate the proportion of loose grinds versus stuck grinds might get you a ballpark estimate.

[@TheDennzio]

Spro, that knife is just wrong for unboxing

[@Sprometheus]

Well since it’s designed for tactical defense would you rather I call these tactical unboxings?

[@canucklostintheusa5306]

Whoever the designer was should rethink it because this is just fugly. IMO of course to each their own.

[@zubsero73]

There's a whole lot of knifing going on

[@Sprometheus]

I see you’ve played knifey-spoony before

[@alighanadian7207]

the vibration is caused by asymmetrical bean crusher.

[@Sprometheus]

I don’t think so, I mean I’m no engineer but I think they would’ve noticed this long ago during R&D and not when they put a different motor in it for the US market alone.

[@ea5437]

Not blind burrs. At this stage of the market and its participants and competition, it’s a shame.

[@davidfrankel9267]

Those wing nuts do not instill confidence. Trouble waiting to happen. Nope.

[@JulesAUS]

Mazzer has started shipping Philos grinders within Europe - there should be user feedback available very soon. @Sprometheus - looking forward to your review and in particular I'd love to know how the Philos compares to the P64.