Ringwraiths | The Redemption of the Nazgûl

Could the Nazgûl be redeemed? I discuss the possibility of redemption and redeemability for Sauron's enslaved servants in The Lord of the Rings - The Ringwraiths. Is it even possible they could turn from evil? I talk of Orcs, the fate of Men, and a possible path to redemption for the Nine.
► Chapters:
0:00 - Intro
1:23 - Orcs and 'natural evil' creatures
4:17 - Nothing is irredeemable
5:13 - The Ringwraiths and their corruption
7:28 - Overwhelmed by a greater will
8:46 - The chance of redemption
10:46 - The death of the Ringwraiths
12:18 - Mandos and the healing of the spirit
13:29 - The strength of will
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► On-Screen Notes:
Not included
► Artwork:
All artists, images, and links to sources are found by following the link below. If you would like to see your artwork appear in videos or discuss the use of your artwork on the channel, please get in touch.
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
Maps used with permission from The Encyclopedia of Arda - www.glyphweb.com
► Thumbnail art :
Nazgûl - JamesBousema (deviantart.com/jamesbousema)
► Audio:
The following music was used for this media project:
Virtutes Vocis by Kevin MacLeod
Link: incompetech.filmmusic.io/song...
License: filmmusic.io/standard-license
► Disclaimer:
All videos are the result of my own research into the works of Tolkien unless otherwise stated. I do not claim rights to any audiobooks, music, or artwork used. All scripts and editing are my own work. Permission has been requested from all copyright holders.
#tolkien #nazgul #questions&answers #legendarium #lotr

[@ParaguayMK]

Your commentaries are among the most thoughtful, nuanced, and conceptually clear I've seen on modern Tolkien study. If you haven't considered doctoral study and can stomach the idea of ~4 more years of arduous and thankless work, you would make a great scholar of fantasy literature...

[@TheRedBook]

I've thought about it ever since I finished University and started my first grad job. It's mostly a question of time at the moment but I'd at least love to have a paper or two about Tolkien published with my name on them.

[@TheRedBook]

@@VaderPopsVicodin10 - Always good to see folks from Quora coming over. It's surprisingly hard to get people off of that site onto KZbin!

[@KazgarothUsher]

I just want to echo your sentiments. Its a great channel and narrated with a tone that is both easy to listen to while containing keen insight on the works of Tolkien. :)

[@LordTelperion]

Agreed

[@GirlNextGondor]

Excellent take as usual. I think any chance the Nazgul had at redemption would have to take place after the destruction of the One Ring. I do wonder if, regardless of their ability to defy Sauron's will, any of the Nine could feel the desire to do so while bound by the rings. They are described as if they had the vestiges of personalities in Unfinished Tales -- individual preferences, strengths, and rankings -- and Sauron can't have been a particularly pleasant boss. Hatred or resentment of Sauron could be the seeds of reclaiming their wills once his domination was removed.

[@shanenolan8252]

Hey lexi

[@TheRedBook]

Yes, I think the 'no will but his own' part may be taken too far in some interpretations. It's not like they were puppets who wouldn't move unless Sauron told them to move. Each had agency, and as you say, 'rankings' proves some sort of hierarchy within the group itself. I'm sure each one would obey the Witch-king without hesitation as well. I suppose if there had been some shred of doubt within their heart it would possibly be overruled by the greater will that had conquered them. Like Gollum loving and hating the ring? Like Bilbo or Frodo wanting to leave the ring but convincing themselves it was the wrong move to do so? Maybe the desire to escape would just be completely overwhelmed by the need to fulfill the will of Sauron - with them powerless to think of not doing as he commanded. It's hard to picture in my head what it would feel like to have another's will overrule my own but these are examples within the world that I imagine it being something similar to, maybe taken to an extreme we can't imagine. Your point about resentment being a path to redemption is a good one. I've never imagined that the Ringwraiths would miss Sauron when he was gone but would maybe be overwhelmed emotionally by a sudden weight lifted off of them. What would reclaiming your own independence of thought feel like?

[@GirlNextGondor]

@@shanenolan8252 Hey there Shane, fancy seeing you around these parts!

[@shanenolan8252]

@@GirlNextGondor yes fancy that.

[@SuperHongTay]

So... the ending of shadow of war?

[@TheRedBook]

Would you like a similar video about everyone's favourite Dark Lord, Morgoth? I have some good ideas and thoughts about some kind of path to redemption video for him. That will make this some kind of series since I've now covered the Ringwraiths and Fëanor. Hope you liked this video!

[@ColetteNoir]

Yes, please! I love your work.

[@TheRedBook]

@@ColetteNoir Glad you are enjoying the content :)

[@GirlNextGondor]

Do it! In my heart of hearts I believe that when Morgoth is finally slain forever, Melkor will remain. And he will be fabulous. Though still not my favorite Dark Lord, I'm afraid.

[@Jesserd95]

Please do! Very interested to hear your thoughts on this!

[@istari0]

Yes, and Sauron as well please. I believe neither of them to be redeemable but I'd like to hear your view.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Love how you pulled in so many sources for this one. One of the biggest problems with Tolkien is how many volumes his most interesting ideas are spread across 😅

[@TheSaneHatter]

This is an issue that, quite honestly, I never thought about. My impression had always been that the Nazgul simply ceased to exist after the ring fell, or were permanently disembodied like Sauron himself (or like Saruman, for that matter). However, based on Tolkien's fictional theology, you've made a pretty strong case to the contrary. I can only think of two possibilities: 1) The Nazgul were being held in a kind of stasis for the Last Battle, much like the Great Armament under Ar-Pharazon. 2) The Nazgul, even as disembodied spirits, were going to have to perform some kind of penance in order to move on. Just as Sauron might have lingered as a spirit of malice, the Nazgul might conversely have had to make themselves felt as some kind of force for good, rather like "guardian angels," and regain their original personalities and consciousness, so that they could at least be judged fairly, to say nothing of being redeemed Overall, my fear had been that, by way of the Nine Rings, the will of Sauron had simply devoured the Ringwraiths from within, leaving no trace of their original souls or personalities. However, you've proposed (if I may suggest it) a state more like Borg assimilation, with their individual wills being simply overpowered while they watch themselves obeying, in torment. That would be a terrible state to recover from, even in the Undying Lands, and it's impossible to predict how healthily they'd come out.

[@TheSaneHatter]

@@alethiosoratos5455 If you could point out the exact sources for that impression, I'd be grateful.

[@Marcusjnmc]

I think they will have simply had to go to the halls of the dead, and perhaps had to listen to the many generations of greivances their own people experienced under Sauron , as well as of those that they hurt

[@john.premose]

Wouldn’t they just go to hell, since they’re human? (I assume Tolkien has some idea of hell of some kind, although to be honest I never read anything about it in his writings)

[@jawstrock2215]

When the Witch King dies, the wind takes the last remnant of it. That to me, was when it's spirit was taken west to the Halls of Mandos. It always felt to me the rings were like chains, but for the souls. They forced it bound in the world, where it should have gone out of it by then. However, the issue comes from the ring, on their physical body. They should have died a few times already, notably near Imladris when they chases Frodo.(At least their horses did), and from the characters talking about them, it sounds like they were "killed" many times, but always ends up returning, so they should have lost their ring many times but never did. Why did the Witch King only leave Middle earth at the Paleanor field battle, and never at any other time... Plot armor? Or was it the only time Mandos was able to see him and get him to his Halls?

[@jawstrock2215]

@@john.premose I'd say hell was being a ringwraith in the first place.

[@kimhaas7586]

Omg, yesterday I was just thinking about the question of whether the orcs received some kind of redemption.

[@pippinisawesome52]

That was fascinating! I’d never thought of the possibility of them being redeemed; it just never crossed my mind. But now that the idea is there I love it!

[@joseraulcapablanca8564]

it is good to hear Tolkien read in a Scots accent like my own. I think the Nazgul are redeemable, both within the mythos created by tolkien and within his Catholic view of the world. As Frodo failing to destroy the ring demonstrates the inevitability of failure of will to reach salvation, mirros the failure of will Only through Iluvatar is redemption possible. Frodo finds redemtpion partly because he does all a hobbit can to reach it. What struggles the nazgul undertook against their enslavement is unkown, to paraphrase the pivotal concersation onmercy between Gandalf and Frodo, "Many who deserve damnation get salvation and many who deserve salvatiion do not get it, can you give it to them?" To me this says that such things as the redepmtion of the nine are rightly beyond our knowing, though in theory we know that all can acheive redemtpion through their god. Thanks and keep up the good work.

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks for your thoughts here. Great to hear from another Scot as well :D

[@john.premose]

Shouldn’t it be “Laird o’ the Rings”? Just kidding lol

[@joseraulcapablanca8564]

@@john.premose tee hee 😀

[@Crabby303]

I like to think that the Wraiths retained a fragment of their own consciousness throughout their "bondage" to Sauron. While they were his most loyal servants, they also had some degree of autonomy of action, as opposed to being robot-like avatars of his will. For example the Witch-King conducted a successful campaign against Arnor in Sauron's absence, which I think implies a remaining degree of decision-making and intelligence, albeit always deployed in Sauron's interests. Anyway my point is that, like the Orcs. I think they ultimately despised their condition of bondage, being still self-aware beings, and probably felt the relief of release at his downfall. So a "redemption" of sorts. Another interesting question is, and we could be here all night lol, were they to be held responsible by Mandos for evil deeds committed whilst under Sauron's dominion? Or just for those committed while they still held some degree of self-determination? The whole duress defense I suppose?

[@vc1396]

I think that's what tolkien means when he says they're wills were enslaved and not their minds. It's not the same as telepathy or mind control. They have the ability to move and make decisions on their own even without sauron knowing about it but they don't have the capability of acting literally purely outside of Saurons interests and desires

[@legendsauce2190]

I've seen so many LOTR videos but I really enjoyed this one. Good job man.

[@jameskent5347]

I often revisit videos on your channel because I love the analysis. This channel is a goldmine of Tolkien focused content.

[@FranciscanGypsy]

Your topic choices are always so thought-provoking. Thank you!

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks!

[@DavidMacDowellBlue]

I've subscribed, in part because I so love your presentation on many levels, and the issues you address.

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks a lot! Glad to have you here David :)

[@sypherthe297th2]

I think the damage had been done. That the Nazgul either dissolved after the rings lost their powers or became lost souls unable to find their way into true death. Sort of how Sauron and Saruman were left permanently broken, insubstantial, and weak. The Nazgul were tragic characters that served as a warning against easy power. They weren't evil in their own right but had been so diminished by the terms by which they were ensared in servitude to evil that they weren't really human or even alive when the One Ring was destroyed. The will and power of Sauron was all that kept them going as channeled through the One Ring to their own. They had become so "stretched" that, in the end, whatever was left of the former men they were was an unrecognizable, burned out husk.

[@trishalilly2924]

An excellent video on a subject I've not really thought about. Love you style and voice. Yiu just got a subscriber.

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks Trisha, always appreciate that kind of positivity. Hopefully, you will enjoy the content I have planned going forward.

[@Aurora-qn2dx]

another masterpeice video..not only informative but creative..bravo👏🧚

[@TheRedBook]

I enjoyed making this one. Glad you enjoyed it!

[@mos4396]

A very interesting topic😮👍

[@TheRedBook]

I agree!

[@beatleblev]

Melkor, Sauron, Saruman, Feanor and his sons, Ar-Pharazon, Denethor, Wormtongue, all of these (off the top of my head) were given the opportunity to reconsider the path they were on, stop what they were doing, and turn around and go the other way. None accepted. All refused the grace offered them. There is a trajectory to behavior and the further along the path of destruction you go, the harder it is to turn back. I don't doubt that redemption and pardon would be offered. My question would be: who would take it? The only beings that comes immediately to mind are Aule and Finarfin. The rest were consumed by their own bitterness and pride. Saruman is the best example here. He was offered repentance by Gandalf, Galadriel & Gandalf, and Frodo. Each time he rejected the offer with spite. Only upon being slain did his spirit look to the West and was then turned away. He had made his choice and was made to swallow the bitterness he spewed on those who had shown him pity and kindness.

[@tominiowa2513]

Aulë? He is one of the Valar, and in no more need of redemption that the rest of them. Fëanor in some of Tolkien's unfinished writings will be allowed to redeem himself by having the Silmarils returned to him after Arda is broken and remade, and voluntarily breaking them so Yavanna can regrow the the Trees of Light. He will have spent at least 7 ages in the Halls of Mandos before that as penance. Ar-Pharazôn is in stasis until Dagor Dagorath, at which time he and his army will be allowed to redeem themselves by fighting against Morgoth. Denethor (presumably Denethor II Steward of Gondor) did not commit any irredeemable sin (even if he had succeeded in having Faramir burned alive, that would have been an act of insanity done in the light that he believed Faramir to be mortally wounded), so he would presumably after a time of reflection in the Halls of Mandos be allowed to partake in Gift of Men.

[@beatleblev]

@@tominiowa2513 I included Aule in the sense that he repented of creating the Dwarves in imitation of the Children of Eru to come and was willing to destroy his creation as penance. Eru rewarded his humility by adopting the Dwarves and allowing them to be part of creation. As for the rest, I was referring to their refusal to accept pardon when offered in Arda.

[@brucetucker4847]

In Melkor's case, it's not clear to me that this possibility actually existed, since the Valar didn't fully understand him. The only one who really knew was Eru and he did not tell even the Valar as far as we know. But they gave him the opportunity because they couldn't be sure he _wasn't_ capable of redemption.

[@brucetucker4847]

@@tominiowa2513 Denethor did commit an irredeemable sin, suicide. It is possible that Tolkien didn't accept this doctrine, but in Catholic theology suicide = an immediate and certain trip to Hell (with exceptions where the purpose of the suicide is for the sake of saving others, not a desire to die - for instance, soldiers who throw themselves on grenades to save their comrades - but this isn't the case for Denethor). The Halls of Mandos were for Elves, not Men, except in extremely exceptional cases like Beren's because his fate had become linked with that of the Elves. Frodo, Sam, and according to legend Gimli were allowed to enter Aman by a different special grace, but AFAIK it is never said that their fate after death was any different from that of their kindred, which for Frodo and Sam was to leave the world immediately when they died.

[@giacomogatti3393]

I have been listening to your videos for some time now and I can only say they are really, really good - probably the best among the network of Tolkien's youtubers. As a person who has spent the past 40 years reading, researching, 'breathing' Tolkien's legendarium almost daily, I feel naturally attracted by nuanced, deep dive analisys that go beyond the mere description of characters and facts, and your channel is one of the very few that offers that consistently, and not only occasionally - so very well done. In regard to the possibility for the Nazgul (and, to a different degree, other servants of the Enemy like orcs) to be offered a chance of redemption, I think this is inevitably the case if you look at the wider body of the legendarium and take into account Tolkien's profound beliefs. Although he has famously and ferociously made every attempts to avoid a possible allegorical reading of his work, in particular in relation to Catholicism, I cannot imagine a devote catholic envisioning a world expression of the will of a creating God that doesn't encompass the possibility of redemption for some of his creatures. Of course, even by catholic standards, chances and paths of redemption are different depending on individual circumstances, history and behaviour in life. But the possibility is definitely there for everyone, even for the Nazgul, who in the end were 'just' men, though very, very evil and corrupted ones. On a wider note, this topic is strictly related to another one that, at least for me, is the most complex, unresolved and certainly fascinating theme of Tolkien's created universe - free will. How you reconcile this gift granted by Eru to men and, to a certain degree, elves and ainur, in the context of a directed and preohordained world, whose entire history is expression of the Music of the Ainur and, ultimately, God's great design, it is a challenge that, based on my research, no one has yet been able to satisfactorily address. Tolkien himself has been wrangling with this theme for his entire life. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this very topic - maybe one for your next video?

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks, Giacomo. I probably wouldn't have started the channel if others were doing exactly what i am doing but I (honestly) thought there was a bit of a gap for this kind of content. I feel a lot of the videos are for people getting into Tolkien or for movie fans. There are only a few channels that do analysis. As you say, there's a lot of fact presentation and histories, which is fine, but I'm not the target audience. I like to learn something I don't know when I watch a Tolkien video, or hear an interpretation... For your Ringwraiths comment, I have to agree. I still get comments on this video saying redemption was impossible and that the Ringwraiths made their choice. I find that strange when we know that characters who chose evil paths were given many chances to redeem themselves. Surely the Ringwraiths would be given that chance when their independence was returned to them? If you want redemption, you can seek it, and it will be offered. You are right that Free Will is one of the most complex issues, up there with Theodicy, the problem of evil. It seems that many readers actively dislike the Valar, asking why they didn't do this or that, actively hating Eru, blaming him for everything, etc. Some asking how death can be a gift. Even after decades of discussion and analysis, the same thoughts and arguments appear. I wouldn't be able to answer what Tolkien couldn't but I am confident in my knowledge of the text to present what his thoughts were and to give my own. It would be a video that would involve careful research and attention. It won't fit into my 2021 schedule as I have that worked out but I definitely want to take this idea and make a video about it. It's as interesting to me as discussing oaths and curses, the power of words and names. I have a lot I'd like to talk about on here and I'd like to think that before I run out of ideas for the channel, I'll have made such videos to get out what I'd like to say.

[@stephenlackey5852]

Your voice is so soothing Subscribed👍

[@TheRedBook]

Apparently I'm good for falling asleep to...hopefully not through boredom! :D Thanks for subscribing as well, it's appreciated!

[@charlesyanni5195]

This was beautiful. Thought I saw here parallels between this and Christian afterlife belief. I actually cried while watching this, for the repentant souls of people who have gone before. Thank you and God bless you for making this.

[@user-sd7ri9fy4i]

Nice work dude thanks

[@wavesailor19]

I learn something new every time I listen to this masterpiece.

[@sainiharika]

Very original thoughts n analysis

[@alexshadowfax1119]

Very insightful thoughts, I always love the atmosphere you create, a somber, thoughtful, serious discussion. I feel like this is a question only Eru could truly answer? Do you think any of the Valar could have remembered from the music any of the fates of those like the Nazgul or orcs? Or are details at that level not possible for anyone other than God? Thanks and have a great day everyone.

[@TheRedBook]

"Now all is said concerning the manner of the Earth and its rulers in the beginning of days, and ere the world became such as the Children of Ilúvatar have known it. For Elves and Men are the Children of Ilúvatar; and since they understood not fully that theme by which the Children entered into the Music, none of the Ainur dared to add anything to their fashion." When we read quotes such as "but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else" I find it hard to believe that the Valar would understand the fate of Men within the Music, or remember it, for it was beyond their understanding. Understanding the 'fate' of any individual man is not under the purview of any vala. It is man who forges his destiny.

[@NickBR57]

Another great insight. I must say you make "The History of Middle Earth" much easier to understand.

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks, Nick. The History of Middle-earth can be quite complex and I have to say certain volumes are arranged in such a hard-to-read way - especially the early volumes! Better to tackle volumes based on date of writing and subject matter (history of Lotr, history of Silmarillion, Late writings, etc).

[@runningwithfaith8644]

It just reminds me of my thoughts with G-d. I wish to be truly repented in the end. Where I no longer feel tempted to do what is evil.

[@michael.bombadil9984]

Excellent coverage!

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks Michael :)

[@michael.bombadil9984]

@@TheRedBook You are quite welcome. You're clearly college bound or aced it already. It's a pleasure to listen to a discussion by someone who knows how to research and then compile the information into a comprehensible presentation.

[@TheRedBook]

Means a lot :D my university days are behind me. Graduated about 7 years ago. I'd research Tolkien for a living if I could!

[@michael.bombadil9984]

@@TheRedBook Amen. I have some political books I want to get through then I'm going to spend a year reading Tolkien.

[@BanjoSick]

Loved some of the Nines stories in the Merp sourcebooks, especially Akorahil.

[@MichaelMedici61W2]

I love that you use the masterpiece of Phil Dragash as your reference for the books. I listen to chapter 2 which is my favourite Shadows of the Past or Council of Elrond every night to help me sleep. Where is the clip starting at 10:23 from? That sounded really good!

[@jimbombadill]

Yet another exellent video, thank you! Love the eary music and your great choise of drawings and pictures and the total LACK of images from the crapy movies.

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks :) and yes, this is a Tolkien channel. I have my views on the movies but this isn't the place for them. I am only interested in talking about Tolkien here.

[@Twirlyhead]

Nazgul at a drive-through. That could be fun.

[@Jesserd95]

You ever think about trying to answer that question at 5:00? I have to admit that issue has been bugging me for a while now. Do they still have spirits? Or was the original spirit-essence driven out during the corruption process, making them soulless beasts? Or did Morgoth perhaps pour a bit of his own essence into the first ones, before letting them multiply? No answer seems entirely satisfying...

[@TheRedBook]

Yes, I've been thinking how to properly answer it because the very simple answer is that even Tolkien didn't know. My video would end up being a run down of what we do know and what bothered Tolkien about it, maybe providing my own thoughts on it. I can't give a definitive answer to it though because there isn't one!

[@brucetucker4847]

I don't think that in Tolkien's mythos it was possible to separate body and soul, fëa and hröa, except by physical death of the body, and while the Nazgûl were no longer fully living, they had not died either.

[@john.premose]

What makes you think beasts don’t have souls? I see no reason why they wouldn’t, if we do

[@christophmahler]

I agree with the reasoning given here, commending an afterlife as _an integral part_ of the story - and it is a trait of Tolkien's work to merely grant the room for the very question without indebting his worldbuilding in already loaded terms and confessionalist dogma. One has to contemplate the question, genuinely to find an answer that is almost impossible to communicate in our age.

[@theeffete3396]

I'd like to think that some of the Nazgul were genuinely good men that wanted to use their rings altruisticly, but were enslaved by Sauron the Deceiver. They aren't truly evil except by whatever evil passes through them via Sauron's will. I'd like to think that their folly does not put them beyond redemption. However, the Witch King may have always been a tyrant, or perhaps willingly accepted his bondage, which may help to explain why he of all the Nine seemed to retain some of his own will. I always found it curious how he was the Chief of the Nazgul, when they were all supposedly puppets of Sauron. In any case, there is probably no hope for him.

[@jawstrock2215]

The Witch King was simply the strongest. And they all had independence, but they would always act for the goals of Sauron. The best of slaves is not one you need to tell what to do constantly, but that knows it before you need to even ask.(because they know their master and his plan so well). It doesn't make them less of slaves though.

[@robertstewart239]

I believe that the Nazgul were selected because they were the most powerful men who were WILLING to serve Sauron. They were described as "proud and great" and, like most of the downfallen beings in these stories, their pride got the better of them. Sauron may have got some pleasure in the idea of getting nice men to accept the rings before corrupting them, as he intended to do with the Elves of Eregion, but when dealing with Men and Dwarves, he went straight for the jugular: attract proud men with visions of power and lure dwarves into greed.

[@simonmorris4226]

Note Nienna visits the souls in Mandos and brings healing! And she is considerably more powerful than Sauron!

[@Gessle3]

That was very interesting actually

[@sircrimsonwolf7492]

I’ve always been curious if it was possible for the ring wraiths to return under the service of a new dark Lord or if one of them was resurrected as the next dark Lord.

[@TheRedBook]

They are mortal men and once they are dead they are dead but certainly when they were around they could serve another Lord if someone had bent the power of the One to their own will.

[@danieldeclue1466]

I really dig my personal head Cannon for Orcs and the question of them being naturally bad or naturally redeemable. I always figured that yes Orcs come from corrupted elves, and that when they die their spirits still go to the halls of Mandos like other elves but there has been far more damage to them than to the likes of there Elvish counterparts, which means that an Ork Spirit would still exist but it must take a much longer time to heal in the house of Mandos before it's spirit is set back out into the world. At least that's my interpretation

[@michaelfisher7170]

I wondered this reading The Silmarillion...not on the first read...I did that as a teen and while I loved the individual stories it took me a long while to ingest it as a single, very deep narrative. But the story of Numenor did spark the idea....men's souls are free from the music....did the destruction of the ring set the Nazgul's souls free again? I mean, it would have to, right? Sauron's influence, his will, was gone the instant the Ring was destroyed. Did those men's soul's reawaken, as though after a sleep, or from a nightmare? They were men. They were subject to the Gift of Iluvatar....they had to have found their way to the Halls of Mandos and.....then what? This is an excellent video, only because I'm very selfish and I've always wondered this, but have never asked anyone else whether they have. lol. Thank you so much...your channel and your material is wonderful....keep up the work!

[@TheRedBook]

Glad you liked the video and I'm also glad to see I'm not the only one pondering this stuff when reading the material. The fate of such beings isn't written down for us but I like to think that the ideas put forward by Tolkien allow us to imagine what would happen to them after their defeat. I would have still loved some essay from Tolkien talking about the fate of the Ringwraiths but there are a lot of things I'd have loved to read that Tolkien didn't get around to writing!

[@brucetucker4847]

The answer is simple: the Ringwraiths were still Men and had not died, Tolkien was devoutly Catholic and Catholic beliefs deeply underlie his works, and Catholic doctrine is very clear that no human is beyond any possibility, no matter how remote, of redemption until they have died and gone to Hell. So yes, the Nazgûl could be redeemed up to the point where they died. The will of Sauron and the power of the One Ring were both very great, but neither could conceivably be greater than the power of God (Eru), whose will it was and is that all Men have the choice to accept Christ and be redeemed at any time. (The question of how those who died before the mortal incarnation of Jesus and the preaching of the Gospel could be redeemed is a bit more complex, but the short answer is that in Catholic theology the answer is that they absolutely could.)

[@nameless5413]

the whole concept of redemption is where Tolkien's faith shows. I kinda want to see the redemption of all beings in the realm but only after they've done as much if not more good than harm. This might be an interesting angle to someone like Radegast the brown. Whilst i am sure i am just making my own fiction up it might have been that long time ago (due to his mind being on immaterum rather than physical world) he ended up causing harm even unwittingly and has been cast down to the world when it was forming, trying to repay the debt ever since.

[@albdamned577]

I have a feeling the Halls of Mandos experience for men relates more to the fear of man moving beyond the world than anything else. Men have control of their destiny in a way that the elves and valar do not. So after death, they have no ties to Ea and are drawn to the Halls of Mandos. The ones that are not afraid (and by definition least affected by Morgoth) would depart, while the ones that are afraid can stay as guests. The Halls of Mandos seems like purgatory then though I don't think Mandos is the one cleansing men, like he is doing with elves (It isn't clear what he is doing to the elves but it is directly stated he has some interaction with them there). The undiscovered country, as Shakespeare puts it, is the ultimate dread in the existential sense, which would mean there needs to be a waystation for those that are unable to handle it after their deaths. As it relates to the Nazgul, they either would be the most eager (think like a rubber band being stretched and stretched and then finally released) or the least eager (devoting the vast majority of their existence to avoiding their nature) to depart the world.

[@iancarnaby3898]

Halls of mandos was for elves wasnt it?

[@TheRedBook]

Men went there too and couldn't refuse the summons, unlike elves who could refuse them.

[@SauroniastyPL]

I think to understand the view of redeemable nazguls etc. we need to understand apokastasis. That is why Tolkien mentioned probability of being reddeemed in reference to orcs in his letters. Apokastasis is the concept in catholic theology and philosophy, commonly known as “empty hell”, when in the end God will redeemed all, and will elevate the creation to surpass even this that were in the first concept (in Tolkien version music, and that corresponds with the second music of the ainur) similar concept exists in Zoroastrianism. You can check this even starting with Wikipedia, then You will see the concept of marring of Arda, and second music in the new light. Great material as usual, best Tolkien channel since the dawn of yet. If any day You would need a help from medievalist historian let me know :]

[@TheRedBook]

I am familiar with 'empty hell' but yes, I've never really applied this to the concepts of Tolkien. Certainly something that warrants investigation on my side! And thanks, I am enjoying creating this content. I might take you up on that offer at some point :D

[@JonS]

This is a version of the Problem of Evil, and the lack of a coherent case for the existence of free will. If Eru Ilúvatar is all knowing, all powerful, and all good, how can evil exist? The free will theodicy is one attempt to answer this, but there is no compelling explanation for the existence of free will (only the illusion of free will); as here in the case of the Ring Wraiths, where they could only succumb to the power of their rings.

[@Enerdhil]

Excellent video. I watched it twice.😁 I looked up the Letter you quoted and read some earlier passages about Trolls and Orcs. Tolkien said that Trolls were "made in counterfeit of certain creatures pre-existing." Does this mean the Trolls did not possess souls or spirits?

[@TheRedBook]

Trolls are another strange one. Tolkien created a bit of an issue with them too since he gave them proper speech in The Hobbit. He then seemed to go back on this in his later Silmarillion writings and in The Lord of the Rings - the latter had some trolls apparently only speaking the Black Speech of Mordor. The whole counterfeit thing has people often confused. This relates to the inability to neither the Valar, nor the Incarnate could make things "utterly new", and they couldn't create as Eru could but they could make out of what existed. Melkor apparently tried to make things new and they ended up as mockeries or imitations of existing things. He wouldn't have the "power" to gift them souls but their very "making" could have had them be given souls due to becoming a natural part of the world ... but ... we don't know. Another user asked me to make a video about the creation of life outside of Eru's direct involvement...so this should come up there.

[@Enerdhil]

@@TheRedBook Good stuff. I can't wait for that video. Your topics and content are amazing. Thanks for all you hard work.

[@brucetucker4847]

@@TheRedBook Aule and Yavanna werent able to create creatures that had souls due to being natural parts of the world, so I see it as extremely unlikely that Morgoth could either. Souls come only from Eru.

[@jkdbuck7670]

Good thoughts.

[@christianefiorito6684]

you are a kind man

[@LeHobbitFan]

Fascinating as always! I believe the Ringwraiths could indeed be redeemed, after a long time in the Halls of Waiting... After all, Fëanor, who caused much grief and sorrow in Arda by his own will, had a hope of being released before the end of time, then maybe it would be so for beings who lost their agency for several millennia. Then again, we don't know what happens to the Second-Born after death: but if the Halls of Mandos are like Purgatory, wherein one's fëa is progressively cleansed of the evil in themselves (and of the scars that evil left within them), then even the Nazghûl are assured to be redeemed... though it'd probably take an even longer time than the time they spent as Wraiths.

[@TheRedBook]

Yes, this is my view. Tolkien didn't go into any detail about some negative 'hell' as an afterlife in the Legendarium but always had this idea of hope throughout his writings. This is why I believe that even evil Men would maybe linger in Mandos until the time was right for them to move on. Though, it does raise some interesting questions about what would happen if someone just refused to accept their actions, if they stuck to their evil will. Would they linger until they were finally broken, or would their freedom to choose be acknowledged with the hope that at some time they might change after leaving the Circles? Perhaps it's an optimistic view to believe that everyone would eventually find redemption - maybe not too optimistic for those of a religious persuasion.

[@theradgegadgie6352]

The Halls are only that way for Elves, though. For Men they are more like a motorway service station, not the destination. Whatever happens to Men's Fear, it happens outside of Ea.

[@LeHobbitFan]

@@theradgegadgie6352 Indeed, their fëar will always eventually leave Ea, but they still stay in the Halls of Waiting for some time. At least that's how I interpret this passage in the Tale of Beren & Luthien, that occurs shortly after the death of Beren : "For the spirit of Beren at her bidding tarried in the halls of Mandos, unwilling to leave the world, until Lúthien came to say her last farewell upon the dim shores of the Outer Sea, whence Men that die set out never to return." Beren stayed in these Halls long enough for Lúthien to plead for him before Mandos. So there seems to be a choice offered to Men, to either pass through the Halls (as a motorway service, as you pointed out) or to remain there for a time. But, like you said, eventually they all leave.

[@theradgegadgie6352]

@@LeHobbitFan Beren and Luthien were special cases, though, in more than one way. I doubt every human soul had that much agency, much like Glorfindel is the only Elf who returned to Middle-earth after reincarnation in Aman.

[@LeHobbitFan]

@@theradgegadgie6352 True, although Beren was still only a mortal Man. Though his destiny was great, his nature was no different than that of other mortals. Now, if the time spent in the Halls is (as the quote makes it sound) a matter of unwillingness to leave the world, then I suspect other Men would also spend some amount of time there (the later men of Numenor, for example, who were notoriously unwilling to succumb to death). Then again, it could be argued that Beren's case is caused by the high doom that lays upon him... but from the limited amount of information we get, it could go either way.

[@docopoper]

Speaking of Orcs, and thinking of Eru talking to Aulë about the dwarves... Did Yavanna have to control all the animals in middle earth? Or did they have a will of their own in some regard? That seems like a lot to control.

[@jim.the.editor]

Wonderful video as always. I wonder if this theory is contradicted somewhat by Gandalf in Return of the King... from memory, doesn't Gandalf say that the void is where the Witch King (and Sauron) will be sent upon their defeat?

[@TheRedBook]

Gandalf says: 'Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!' May be a bit of a stretch to take that as a claim by Gandalf that they are being sent to the Void rather than that they will be defeated and won't be able to trouble the world any longer.

[@docopoper]

I can't remember exactly where I heard this, but I remember Tolkien talking about a distinction between actions taken because of one's character or external forces, and actions taken with express will. That there are times when a person makes an express decision with clarity of mind and freedom of decision, and there are other times when a person's actions are fated based either on their personality or external factors guiding what decisions are possible for them. I think in this context the actions of the ringwraiths after they fell could be considered fated and not acts they need redemption for. They may have had brief moments of clarity, but I would argue that their redemption would mostly be about the lives they led before and the decisions they made which were evil while falling. Also I think another comparison worth making when talking about the ringwraiths is Theoden when under the spell of Saruman.

[@longpinkytoes]

the word 'repent' is often simpler than it is portrayed in pop media... leaning on a hot element by mistake, and thinking 'i should try not to do that again' is really all that is required. not sitting in mandos with a dunce cap for ages. :p

[@longpinkytoes]

being unrepentant would be 'i know i'll suffer burns that take ages to heal, but when no-one is looking, I'll Do It Again (Goofy voice)'

[@SABRMatt2010]

If Orcs are creatures made by Eru and then converted and twisted by Melkor...how are more of them made? How are they bred? And, since Tolkien conceived of the possibility of breeding Orcs with wild men to make half-Orcs...how is that achieved without making a new creature?

[@TheRedBook]

Good question Matthew. The corruption process produced the race of Orcs. Once they were a race in their own right they were able to reproduce in the manner of the Children of Iluvatar. So, once the initial corruption took place, the race of Orcs became a part of the world and they were then able to breed and produce more Orcs. Basically, they can mate and give birth.

[@robertstewart239]

Interesting video. I'd love to see a contrast of Feanor and Ar-Pharazon with the likes of the Nazgul. Feanor was proud, let his pride get the better of him and did a few evil deeds. The outcome? He is destined to remain in the Halls of Mandos until the End. Period. No forgiveness. No leniency. He tried to oppose evil and was condemned to Mandos for as long as the world lasts. Ar-Pharazon made foolish decisions. The outcome? Buried in the Caves of the Forgotten to the end of time. No forgiveness. No leniency. Sauron. Did more evil than the other two put together plus a lot lot more. The outcome? Allowed to return to Middle-earth to torment it for thousands of years. The Nazgul. Willingly accepted the rings of power, indulged in centuries of evil and did deeds that would make the likes of Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot look like bullies in a playground. And yet, we're debating their chances of redemption. Tolkien said that the existence of evil and its "apparent toleration" was not his problem. Yes, the age-old Problem of Evil. Were Elves, Men and Ainur all held to different standards? I'd like to see a video on that.

[@Whimsy3692]

If the Nazgul have no other will but Sauron's, and Sauron was once a Maia, would a Maia by nature still have a bit of goodness still left in them? I mean, it seemed like Sauron was A LITTLE BIT resentful when going to Eönwë to beg for forgiveness. He knows what's good and bad is, he just doesn't care. Of course the Nazgul know what good and bad is, they just don't care that The Ring has taken ahold of them and their souls.

[@mikedeck8381]

Never really considered this. We know Sauron and Melkor ended up in the void. We can assume creatures like the Balrog or Dragons would share the same fate. Would beings like trolls, orcs and even the Nazgul join their earthly masters in the void after death? Would they have a choice in the matter? It almost seemed like the spirit of Sauraman repented after his death but was denied the right to return to the West. Could it be that they'd see the void as being preferable to the Halls of Mandos?

[@mikegarwood8680]

"...cried with the voices of death." I don't want to take the text 'out of context', however, I wonder if the Nazgul still had the ability to 'think their own thoughts', despite Sauron's control, and since Men were specifically gifted with "Free Will" (or at least the power to shape their own evolution in 'life'). If they could still have independent thought, perhaps there is a double meaning in the text. Perhaps they "cried" (with regret in their own thoughts) over Sauron's "removal" (or suspension) of the "Gift of Men" and over the loss of their own will, with their only outlet for this was in the evil they did. Also, Sauron's 'domination' could have been as simple as withholding the Gift of Men. I think the Oath-breakers, while not being dominated by anyone's will, hated the existence they had, but did have a "known" pathway to redemption and they knew it (and chose it). The analogy with Darth Vader comes to mind--he was dominated by the Dark Side of the Force, but he was presented 'an opportunity' to 'choose' what to do. From the text, the Nazgul were never given that 'opportunity' (that we know of) in life. If we adopt the notion that the Halls of Mandos is a (kind of) 'Purgatory', then it is quite possible that the Nazgul could be 'redeemed' there. Since JRRT was a Catholic, this would make sense. It then begs the question--were all redeemable?

[@istari0]

So, if orcs existed as a separate "species" that Morgoth then corrupted, where do they fit in the natural order of life on Arda as created in the Music of the Ainur and the later works of the Valar and Melkor? Are they somewhat similar in origins to the Dwarves? Or am I completely misunderstanding what Tolkien is saying here? As far as the Nazgûl are concerned, I have thought that by the time Sauron offered them a ring, they had already turned to evil even if they were not that way when they first encountered the Dark Lord. That would make any path to redemption much more difficult in my view as they did many evil things before becoming Ringwraiths. I don't share Tolkien's religious views so to my mind the Nazgûl are irredeemable.

[@tominiowa2513]

Your question has no definitive answer since Tolkien was still mulling it over at the end of his life, because he was dissatisfied in some respects with his originally proposed origin that the first orcs were elves captured and corrupted by Morgoth.

[@michaelfisher7170]

Its a good answer...and I think many would agree. But...(you knew there'd be a but :) ), I think its important to point out that Sauron gifted men the rings in the Second Age, and in that time Sauron was nothing if not fair, well spoken, seemingly reasonable and persuasive. He had fooled even the greatest Elves of the time (not all, I know, but some)....and knowing Sauron I'm certain he would have been very, very careful about whom to offer this gift to.

[@istari0]

@@tominiowa2513 I am still interested in his opinion. And there may be something Tolkien wrote somewhere in all his writings that I have forgotten or haven't read that might shed further light on where Tolkien was going with this.

[@istari0]

@@michaelfisher7170 Sauron didn't get a hold of the first 16 Rings of Power until he seized them during the War of the Elves and Sauron when he invaded Eregion and killed Celebrimbor. I think the Annatar disguise was a thing of the past by then.

[@TheRedBook]

It's probably a big enough question to make a video out of. It's basically asking about the place of Orcs in the world? A comment probably can't do an answer justice.

[@You-Tube-FBI]

You got a sub.

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks!

[@TheWelvarend]

I find it bizarre how so many people worry and lament that someone or some group may not be "redeemable" when they themselves, who are eligible for redemption, can't be bothered to lift a finger to embrace it.

[@TheRedBook]

If you are meaning redemption in religious terms in our world then it's not bizarre if its not a belief shared by those not seeking that kind of redemption.

[@TheWelvarend]

@@TheRedBook The only people not seeking redemption, actual or literary, are those who don't know what it is.

[@TheRedBook]

@Welvarend - Or non-religious people who aren't interested in concepts of sin, salvation, or redemption.

[@TheWelvarend]

@@TheRedBook True. Salvation and redemption are gifts and gifts can be rejected. As for sin, it simply means "mistake" so if someone is not interested in their mistakes, especially correcting them and undoing the consequences of them-then yes, concepts like salvation and redemption mean nothing since they force one to conduct a deep audit of oneself before progressing on to others around them. Thus, they choose the "broad gate," as it were. I would have expected a Tolkien aficionado to not only understand that but champion it. But, that's my mistake, isn't it?

[@TheRedBook]

@@TheWelvarend It absolutely is your mistake. Just like a scholar of Judasim doesn't need to be a Jew, I can research and discuss Tolkien without having to share his faith. I do my very best to provide accuracy related to what Tolkien believed, over injecting my own opinions on religion into the discussions - to the point where many seem to assume I am religious myself. I take that as a compliment but I am absolutely not religious and never have been.

[@LeHobbitFan]

Yuuussssssss!

[@shanenolan8252]

Cheers

[@TheRedBook]

👍

[@artemismoonbow2475]

Tolkien was famous for exhibiting frustration with allegorical readings of his work. But pointing out his Catholic influences is not necessarily comparing him to his buddy C S Lewis however. It seems to me that Mandos functions as a purgatory type process.

[@TheRedBook]

Exactly. There's nothing wrong with individual readings of his work. I never suspected that Tolkien would have such a problem with that. Only that people would say that HE had written it to represent something else. Saruman as Hitler, the One Ring as a Nuclear weapon, etc. Finding parts of the story that are applicable even to modern life is no different from people still doing the same with Classical Mythology or other stories older than The Lord of the Rings.

[@dantesparda14175]

I think a good example of one who tried to use a ring of power for good is Talion. He held off the armies of Mordor for several years while attempting to resist his ring but even he was corrupted in the end and would not be freed until the destruction of the one ring

[@TheRedBook]

He isn't a real character though. That story was just invented for a game.

[@dantesparda14175]

@@TheRedBook let me have my dreams

[@DHTC888]

It's ALWAYS been hard for me to conceptualize any sort of redemption in Tolkien's characters because justice of the slain must come first. It's an interesting question but always just an afterthought for me. Do we give redemption to George W. Bush? What about everyone that lost their house in 2008? What about the killed and maimed in Iraq? Why does W have to be what the conversation is about all the time? He should be a supporting character in someone else's redemption story, and in that case yes I would read that story.

[@nicholasmaude6906]

What I'd like to know is what would've happened to the eight remaining Ringwraiths when the ruling ring was destroyed in the cracks of Doom on Orodruin is if they'd been too far away to be incinerated (As happened in the novel) as they were bound to the One Ring?

[@annamnatsakanyan4040]

Excellent video! Regarding initially good intentions and resenting Sauron's will but being unable to resist it, I'd like to offer an unusual view. Of course, feel free to disagree if you think it's unfounded. I have, more than once, likened being controlled by the One Ring to OCD in its most severe manifestation. The Ring is the obsession, Sauron's will is the compulsion, and there you are. Actually many people with OCD realize how utterly, ineffably, unbelievably stupid it is, but they just can't help it. From this viewpoint, aren't the Nazgul's chances of redemption increased, subject, of course, to their being initially not corrupted, before they accepted the rings? Does anything of this hold water at all?)

[@TheRedBook]

Nothing wrong with how you interpret it. The nature of their corruption is quite vague. Your thoughts fit quite nicely when discussing just what falling to another's will might mean, at least in a relatable way for us.

[@annamnatsakanyan4040]

@@TheRedBook Apparently Gollum suffered from something like this? Can't wait for a video about him, and then this topic would indeed become a series.)

[@TheRedBook]

@@annamnatsakanyan4040 - Yeah, I didn't even mean to picture it as a series but it seems like it will happen. Missed opportunity to have thumbnails and titles all linking them together. I'm sure I mentioned in another comment that I have 3 or 4 other figures that will fit into a series on redemption and with characters like Gollum and Sauron, they fit nicely with specific moments (Gollum being close to changing before Sam intervenes, Sauron at the end of the War of Wrath).

[@osmanshah5046]

So we’re the dwarves more resistant to Sauron’s plan with the rings because they were created by Aule who taught Sauron ring making in the first place? And in that case wouldn’t it make more sense that they be immune all together. As Aule was far more knowledgeable about crafting than Sauron

[@raydavison4288]

If your thesis is correct, very few, if any of the children of Iluvatar are irredeemable. If so, that's another reason to believe that Feanor was eventually eligible to be freed from the Halls of Mandos & reembodied in Aman if he so chose.

[@TheRedBook]

I think Tolkien's idea is that all can be redeemed but it isn't a one way thing. Fëanor may be one of those mentioned in relation to the Halls of Mandos as 'never leaving' because of the evil they have committed but that could also be due to Fëanor himself not seeking redemption. I cover that in another video "Of the redemption of Fëanor"

[@cybelemarie7913]

One might also ask: what happened to the spirits of the Ents when they died? Or of trolls which were made in mockery of the Ents?

[@TheRedBook]

Good question, such things are quite the mystery in the Legendarium. Though, with Ents, Tolkien did mention something interesting in Letter 338. There he says that with Ents and their wives being "rational creatures" (meaning they have a soul) - they would find some "earthly paradise until the end of the world". Something beyond the wisdom of Elves or even Ents to see. He does say it's possible that they shared the hope of Aragorn, not being bound to the circles of the world. The earthly paradise term is an interesting one I'd like to explore at some point as well...

[@brucetucker4847]

I don't think trolls had souls, they were mere beasts who were a little more intelligent than most - they don't seem to have been made _from_ Ents, and only Eru could imbue beings with souls, that was utterly beyond Morgoth's power. It is not clear what the fate of Ents or Dwarves was, but I think their fëar were indestructible (as all were) and bound to the world the same way Elves were.

[@mariojovancevic4184]

I always wondered about this question. I think they were good men but couldnt resist saurons will and they had to follow his orders or he would make them suffer idk

[@nicholasmaude6906]

IMO the men who lasted the longest before being permanently corrupted by their rings were the three Numenorean lords who were given rings and I suspect the first to fall and become a Ringwraith was Kamal the Easterling.

[@burninghalls]

I've always wondered if Sauron could command or even torture the Ring Wraiths from afar, he appears to be able to do this in the movie when Pipin steals the Palantir Saruman was using to contact Sauron. If any of the nine tried to go against his will would he then torture them into compliance. Sauron also seems to be a fan of torture seeing as he did this to gollum when he captured him to learn the location of his ring.

[@TheRedBook]

I'm thinking at their stage of corruption, they can't even imagine going against their will. They are bound to those rings and those rings are bound to the One which Sauron is still the lord of. I also think though that the Ringwraiths could probably feel Sauron's will pressed on them, much like the Orcs enslaved would. His eye seen in their waking eyes.

[@Lotusisrael]

Redemption for the Nazgul would require a strong will from the outside to cast them to that. This would probably take time and effort (less effort if that will is of a strong being).

[@TheRedBook]

Wouldn't that still just be guiding them to a path through willpower and not their own choice? Redemption can't be forced on someone surely? Unless you mean just setting them on that path and letting them find their way on their own and that ties in with my thoughts about redemption coming at a time when they are free to make that choice.

[@Lotusisrael]

@@TheRedBook Not neccesary. As an Eastern Orthodox theologian, I can understand much of the Roman Catholic theology behind the works of Tolkien. Orthodoxy and catholicism are similar in many aspects, albeit different in several others. People who can not help themselves, especially the deceased, can be helped through prayer and other forms of intercession. For the dead, it seems that this does not break their free will, since they would want salvation, but can not fight for it themselves. Even for the living, this can work. It does not break heir free will, but slowly (usualy) grinds the stoness of their state, allowing the free will to take hold. Like when Saint Monica, mother of Aurelius Augustinus, through years of prayer and intercession, allowed her son to convert and repent. But this is a mystical issue, not a mere moral one. It is about states of being, not just payload.

[@TheRedBook]

@@Lotusisrael very interesting! Thanks for your insight here :)

[@Lotusisrael]

@@TheRedBook Tolkien himself seems to have been somewhere in between Orthodoxy and catholicism. All the Legendarium seems to be so. He probably studied the Church Fathers and Philokalia, mysticism and ascetism of the first Christian millenium. He might have studied even Orthodox works from the second millenium, altough this is quite debatable. Nevertheless, I recognise clearly theology in the Legendarium. I suggest reading `Rivers of fire" by Alexandros Kalomiros, about redemption and damnation. Many things will start to make sense, I suppose.

[@cybelemarie7913]

Where do Orcs go when they die? Outside the world, like mortal Men? Or to the Halls of Mandos? Or into the Shadow or the Void?

[@TheRedBook]

That we don't know. This is one of the issues with Tolkien's choices with the Orcs. I have a video "How long do Orcs live?" that might interest you. I will say though, we really don't know what happens to Orcs because even Tolkien didn't settle on what they are...

[@stevemiller4494]

Very methodical...... So the question really is did the domination of their will by sauron through the power of his ring and the other rings totally enthralled them to a point that they were unaware of their own actions and incapable of resisting in any way shape or form. If this is the case then yes I feel that they can be redeemed..... However if the ring only influenced them, enhancing their own vanity, pride, selfish ambitions and sadistic fantasies while still in complete control of their faculties then I would say no that they had already walked down that dark path on their own and had no desire for redemption..... It's not that there is a possibility of redemption but would there be a probability? Personally I feel that the latter was the true case of the Ring wraiths..... I think they were already going down that path before they allowed themselves to be influenced by sauron and the ring and their own rings...... So no I feel that there is no redemption for them because it's not like they were just innocent good Kings suddenly overcome by an overpowering evil no that's not what happened here..... They had already allowed themselves to be corrupted by power hence the desire for more power so their decisions only further reduced their probability of not being redeemable.... Even though there was a possibility but not a probability !!

[@caos1925]

Correct me if I'm, wrong but we see several of the Nazgul speaking, not just the Witch King either, so they must still have some kind of mind of their own, unless that is just Sauron himself speaking through them. Just as a slave in our world can go against their master I think the Nazgul may have been capable as well, though it would be incredibly difficult.

[@TheRedBook]

Yes, I mentioned this in another comment on this video that I can't find at the moment. When I say they have no will, I mean they are incapable of working against Sauron or not working towards fulfilling his will. They are still free to make choices but all their choices seem to work in favour of working towards what Sauron wants. It's not that that stand still until told to move. It's that Sauron would be able to tell them to stand still if they were moving... If that makes sense?

[@jeffreysommer3292]

Say, how about a video about the king of Numenor and his soldiers buried in the Caves of the Forgotten? Are they still alive, regretting their desire for immortality? Just a thought...

[@TheRedBook]

I find it an interesting topic. It would be pure speculation since there is no text to really answer the question though.

[@jeffreysommer3292]

@@TheRedBook I can see them now--"You mean, in all this host, no one thought to bring a deck of cards?!"

[@Kreadus005]

Kinda deep. If the material world is a corruption by Melkor as some kind of demiurge figure, then WHO ARE MORTALS when you strip away that corruption? The choices and free will seem to be hopelessly contaminated by the short duration mortal influence of Melkor / Morgoth on Arda. When you strip it all away you're left with what was made good and pure by the big guy... but... that pure goody thing probably would not have made the same choices as you. It would be a good, perfect version of you, free of fear, doubt, constraint. It might remember being you and cringe. Like...kind of like how you think about what you did as a teenager or kid. "Oh god how could I have been so dumb". You know I've talked myself into it... Mortals experience massive personal growth when they die. And would only be able to tell the difference...thanks to... Melkor? Whoah...Guess he served a purpose after all. Haha.. Get played.

[@jdlech]

At what time? After the one ring was destroyed, all rings lost their power. All the nazgul became as spirits of the dead; unbound and no more than any other soul of the dead. Before the ring was unmade, they were still as ghosts, bound to their rings; dependent upon them for their very existence in the physical world. Long ago, when they still had bodies, they could have been redeemed, just as gollum/smeagol. They would be mortal, and their powers not amplified by their ring. But it was possible back then. Just like it was possible for people to give up the one ring. Their corruption took time measured in years and decades.

[@andrewverrett568]

So.. The timeline is killing me on the ring wraiths. Because they weren't around before the rings were made. How long did it take them to become wraiths because it seems like not long after the rings were forged and sauron was mad that the rings didn't work on the elves that the witch king took over minith morgul

[@tominiowa2513]

The Sack of Eregion was in 1,697 of the Second Age (S.A.), which is when Sauron first has possession of the nine rings, while the Nazgûl first appear in 2,251 S.A., so less than 554 years for the men given the rings to become wraiths. Not until S.A. 3,429 did Sauron first take Minas Ithil, 1,732 years after the Sack of Eregion and 1,929 years after the sixteen Rings of Power were forged in S.A. 1,500 (with the three elven rings forged in 1,590 S.A. and the One Ring in 1,600 S.A.).

[@istari0]

The Nazgûl first appeared in the year 2251 of the 2nd Age. Minas Ithil fell to the Nazgûl and became Minas Morgul in the year 2002 of the 3rd Age. There's well over 3000 years in between the two events. The rings were seized by Sauron in the War of the Elves and Sauron around the year 1697 of the 2nd Age. So, there was plenty of time for all these things to have happened.

[@tominiowa2513]

@@istari0 - That was the second time Minas Ithil was conquered. First time was S.A. 3,429 when Sauron attacked Gondor triggering the formation of The Last Alliance of Elves and Men. The Last Alliance retook Minas Ithil at some unspecified time between the Battle of Dagorlad and the end of the Siege of Barad-dûr.

[@istari0]

@@tominiowa2513 Right but it wasn't called Minas Morgul until the 2nd conquest and that occupation last over 1000 years until the end of the War of the Ring.

[@tominiowa2513]

@@istari0 - If we want to split hairs, the Witch King never conquered Minas Morgul (as the question was put in the original post), because there was no city by that name until the conquest.

[@TarMody]

It can be said that just as Melkor corrupted the spirits of the elves when he created the orcs, so his disciple Sauron also corrupted the human spirits through the rings of power with the knowledge he gained from Melkor's teaching. This thought shows us that the teaching inherent in the rings of power has its origins came from Melkor. Melkor's attempt is thought to be nullified only if Arda is destroyed by Dagor Dagorath and recreated by the Second Music of the Ainur. According to this thought, it is understood that the human spirits (the Ringwraiths he created) that he corrupted with the similar teaching adopted by Sauron, who was initiated by the teaching of Melkor, can only be corrected in this way. This thought shows us that even if Sauron's One Ring were destroyed, the spirits of the Ringwraiths could never be released or restored.

[@William_Seahill]

I think that possibility is related to what kind of men they were before Sauron corrupted and bound their wills to his service.

[@TheRedBook]

I agree. Many assume that all Nine who received rings were evil at heart but Tolkien specifically mentions (as I quote in the video) that each fell according to their strength of will in the beginning, their motives - good or bad. Some surely were corrupted to evil rather than taking the rings because they were evil.

[@William_Seahill]

@@TheRedBook What are your thoughts on a ring that is the One’s antithesis? I do not mean any one of the Three, but a new ring, forged to counter Sauron’s power.

[@davidbaldwin9830]

Slaves to a stronger will that control their every action are not responsible for their actions,,, unless they would do the same without that control.

[@andrewolivetreemixing]

Would the earliest generations of Orcs end up in the halls of Mandos since they were captured and corrupted Elves?

[@srinjoyroychoudhury7034]

The almighty is ALWAYS INFINITELY MERCIFUL

[@uncleanunicorn4571]

Sounds like Sauron really could gainsay the will of Eru, ringbearers didn't age and die like regular mortals. Of course, you have to abandon your identity and free will to become a shadow demon. Maybe Sauron wasn't completely lying to Ar-Pharazon.

[@TheRedBook]

I don't know if I'd see it that way. The Rings by their nature were for preservation and to halt change, which had this side effect on Men but Sauron didn't force Men to wear them or use them. But could they resist them? In the end, they still passed on - they were delayed but the gift would come to them in the end.

[@athenahitchin7738]

Totally agree that as spirits the ring wraths as a group could be redeemed, though feel like some wouldn't likely be so due to the cruelity of the men's heart. The Witch King is on of these examples as doubt if he had survived and not been slain by Eowyn is still likely unredeemable due to his dark nature even before the ring.

[@brucetucker4847]

No one is unredeemable. However it can be very, very, very unlikely.

[@bryanmccrary139]

Here's a question I've wondered at for quite some time, that you seem more than adequately informed and prepared, perhaps, to answer: Does wondering at what-ifs or hypotheticals in the world of Middle-Earth ever strike you--or anyone, for that matter--as pointless, or an exercise in futility? Given Tolkien's obvious fascination with the idea of fate and predestination, it's always felt... I dunno, wrong somehow(?), to wonder too much at those sorts of things, if that makes any sense.

[@TheRedBook]

I can see your point. I also think doing "What ifs" is a good opportunity for those who know little about the text to get creative. If it all sounds ridiculous they can say "It's just a bit of fun". The big one is something like "What if Sauron won?" or "What if Gandalf the White died?". When reading the text, it's apparent that these just would not happen, so it all becomes completely fabricated and speculative, a changing of the story and the ideas behind the scenes. Some hypotheticals can be interesting to discuss within the scope of Tolkien though. If Saruman hadn't strayed, what could he offer in resistance against Sauron? That's a changing of the story (completely) but we know enough about Saruman to get into some interesting details about what he would bring. If you look at it as something that would never happen but within the boundaries of the "rules" of the Legendarium, hypothetical discussions range from absurd to pretty interesting. Probably a case by case basis?

[@bryanmccrary139]

@@TheRedBook That is quite an excellent approach, I daresay! Of course, as something of an avid fan of roleplaying games, and the like, what-ifs (or even just filling in one's own stories in the blanks left by the good Professor) are certainly a pleasure of mine--even if sometimes a guilty one, of course. But yes, indeed, the sorts of world-shifting events (i.e. the aforementioned victory of Sauron; or if, say, Gandalf claimed the one ring) were the ones I spoke of, so thank you for your insight!

[@brucetucker4847]

Fate is NOT the same as predestination. In Tolkien's Catholic world-view there is always a choice, even if that choice is, as for Frodo, only the choice to go as far as a mortal will can take you and have faith that Eru's grace would take you the rest of the way. But Frodo had the choice to abandon the quest at any point along the way: Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and Frodo meant to bear it to Mordor, but it was in no way preordained that they would accept the burden. Gandalf, who is the wisest being we get to know at all intimately, seems pretty clear on this: it WAS possible for him to die or fail in his task as Gandalf the White, it WAS possible for Sauron to win, and it WAS possible for Frodo to abandon his quest, but it was also possible for them to defeat Sauron, and whether they did or not depended largely on the choices they made - Eru (though he never names Him explicitly) gave them the chance to succeed, but they had to choose to take it. Indeed, Gandalf had the choice to take the Ring and become an even worse Dark Lord than Sauron, and that this did not happen is because he resisted the temptation: Tolkien seems pretty clear that no one would stop him if he had chosen to do so. Presumably if they did fail the world would not be condemned to an eternity of Sauron's rule: some other people at some unknown point in the future would be given the chance to accomplish what they had failed at, just as Aragorn was given the chance to do what Isildur had failed to do.

[@bryanmccrary139]

@@brucetucker4847 There is a reason, after all, that I noted both of these concepts, yes. But especially as things "did happen" as they did, in the terms of the story, would you not say that things were meant (thusly "fated") to happen the way that they did? That is all I meant by "fate," not some immutable will that shapes all events--just "fated" insomuch as, if this makes sense, "things will happen as they do," kind of thing.

[@brucetucker4847]

@@bryanmccrary139 No, I do not believe in a deterministic universe and neither did JRR Tolkien. There is always the possibility for people to make different choices that lead to different outcomes.

[@petesazani7822]

Could the Nazgul used morgul blades to raise an undead army? if so, why didn't they?

[@TheRedBook]

It's quite possible that Frodo would have become a wraith due to him holding the One Ring and continuing to carry it when he was suffering from the wound. I say this because one other figure in Middle-earth was attacked by a Morgul weapon and he died tears later, shrunken with pain. He didn't become a wraith. So, not everyone suffering this wound becomes a wraith. We also don't know how effective a lesser wraith under a Ringwraith would be.

[@rds4629]

If the Nazgul were enslaved by the ring, can you blame them for their actions as they no longer have free will?

[@shdwbnndbyyt]

Now I believe that the issue is more akin to that of those people who take the mark of the antichrist, and worship the image of the beast. People who do both are unable to repent, essentially they lose free will as the Nazgul do. The difference being that the Nazgul accept the rings of power for the power and glory of possessing the rings, while the people in the book of the Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ (full name of the book) accept it the mark and then worship the image of the beast in order to continue to live their lives, the alternative being starvation and death by beheading.

[@brucetucker4847]

Where do you get the idea that those who take the mark of the antichrist are unable to repent? Didn't Jesus say that the only unforgivable sin was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? Is taking the mark the same as blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

[@BVargas78]

Sorry to jump to an assumption, haven't seen the video yet, about to but my first assumption they are too far gone. The path of Morgoth and Sauron is the path to oblivion, a path to the void.

[@TheRedBook]

Can let me know if you think otherwise after the video!

[@BVargas78]

@@TheRedBook Certainly some interesting points. You may be right, i'm a lot more on the fence again!

[@Elia-fn8jv]

Many may not know that there was an hierarchy of ringwraiths,Khamul and the Witchking were the ones who used their ring more than the others and they were in command,but not all of the 9 men were evil,some were just deceived and later corrupted. I think that the ones who didnt want to be corrupted died and were completely healed in the halls of mandos. 11:24 i want to point out my opinion that men were treated a unfairly,having no choice in the matter of death,they die not knowing why or how with no clue what lies beyond and i believe this reflects our reality....

[@TheRedBook]

Where does it say they used their rings more? There was a hierarchy but I've never put that down to use or anything. Interested in the source for this information beyond the Chief and the second in command.

[@Elia-fn8jv]

@@TheRedBook i remember hearing from a video of LOTR lore channel but i cannot remember the name of the channel, i am currently reading the Silmarillion but i havnt arrived to the source of this information. But regardless of that i just figured that it makes sense for the ones that would use their rings more willingly,they would be more held up in value by Sauron.

[@TheRedBook]

That's one reason I source just about everything I say, unless I say it's my own speculation/interpretation. A lot of people can easily make up stuff and have others believe it.

[@Elia-fn8jv]

@@TheRedBook i am sorry if i have offended you

[@TheRedBook]

Offended? :D Not at all. Just talking about how some channels spread misinformation. It's easy to do :)

[@lordslaar4808]

The quotes from Tolkien seem to indicate the redemption of orcs and the Nazgul is not beyond the power of Eru to redeem, i.e. Sauron is not more powerful than Eru Illuvatar. We humans think of the redemption of creatures granted free will and moral agency generally in terms of the power of the individual to redeem himself. The quote to me says orcs are not able to be redeemed through their own power but only by the power of the creator to directly enact. The puzzle here relies on an examination of old Roman Catholic ideas about moral agency, redemption, souls, and how Satan could not create but only pervert or destroy. These ideas separate moral evil (acts of sapient beings), natural evil (harm done by animals and acts of nature), and metaphysical evil (The Devil and his demons). If orcs are something akin to what dwarves were before Eru breathed full life into them, they do not have any more free will than a wind up toy, but are not then morally evil because without free will and moral agency they have no moral agency. There is a reason animals are said not to have souls, and it is because they are not sapient beings with human free will and moral agency. A dog cannot be morally corrupted or redeemed. Neither can a clockwork soldier. Whatever the case, it seems orcs are only redeemable in the sense what amounts to a direct act of God could alter them as the dwarves were altered when granted true life.

[@mrillis9259]

Would the rings having some of a god like beings power, turn the bearers into more powerful beings now that they are free? Or were they destroyed.

[@TheRedBook]

All that was wrought with the rings would be undone. The power within them never belonged to the bearers.

[@brucetucker4847]

There are no god-like beings in Tolkien. Only God. The Valar, including Morgoth, are not like gods at all, they are just VERY powerful spiritual beings - like demons or, in some conceptions (but not others) angels. In Catholic theology the idea that even Satan is a counterpart to God is heresy. (Gnostics, Manichaeans, and some others believed this but not Tolkien.) And I concur with The Red Book's answer on the consequences of the Ruling Ring's destruction. Even the Three, which Sauron had never touched or even seen, lost all their power when the One was destroyed.

[@AnotherZenThought]

Mandos=Tolkien’s Purgatory. Got it.

[@TheRedBook]

?

[@fuzzypicklez]

Could a wraith lose its ring?

[@hstellingwerff]

Hmm. The halls of Mandos are halls of healing. Might it be that orcs are tormented souls of elves, who after the death of the orc need healing. Most might feel such guilt that they refuse the call of Mandos and are reborn as orcs. Others might head the call and be healed. As such not unredeemable.

[@brucetucker4847]

The problem I see with that is that I don't think reincarnation was possible without the direct participation of the Valar (except by VERY exceptional grace of Eru, as with Gandalf), and I cannot imagine the Valar having anything to do with the reincarnation of orcs as orcs. If we stick with the conception that orcs were ruined Elves - and this was extremely problematic for Tolkien - we have to assume their fëar either obeyed (probably only in rare cases) the summons to the Halls of Mandos and were healed and purged of evil over a very long time frame, or refused and wandered Middle-earth as bodiless spirits until the end of Arda. Of course with the number of orcs we're told of this would mean Middle-earth would be pretty well packed with orc ghosts, but being very weak-willed creatures it's likely that orc-spirits would be impotent, incapable of even causing minor mischief for material beings.