Did Sauron Repent?

[@Bruced82]

Gandalf vehemently did not want to take the one ring, when Frodo offered it to him, he did not want to become another Sauron, even with "good intentions".

[@colindunnigan8621]

Indeed, I think even JRRT wrote somewhere that Gandalf would have been more tyrannical than Sauron.

[@222LoneWolf]

"FOOL OF A TOOK!" Gandalf bellows as he smites the Shire clean off the face of Middle Earth

[@jayl5032]

As some spider rope man's 2nd dad once said; "With great power, comes lots of property, women, drugs, uhhhh, or something." -Uncle Benny Fallout New Vegas

[@richardkenan2891]

Gandalf almost certainly knew how Sauron had started and where he had arrived where he was. Knowing that, he knew he was not capable of resisting the temptation of the ring. And unlike Sauron, he had the humility to admit his limitations.

[@gosonegr]

@@richardkenan2891it’s not just knowing what happened, when Melkor decided to runaway to The Middle Earth with his followers, Gandalf, and the rest of wizards had to be there

[@BumphreyYoughurt]

Poor Sauron. He was such an organized, loving genius of a leader. By the end of LOTR his paradise has grown more powerful than the rest of the world combined. And that through hard work, dedication, wise decisions and a great economy. His great work was ruined by some nasty hobbit terrorists, flewn in by terrible eagles, detonating a nuke in mount Love, close to his capital.

[@Kelnx]

"Mount Love" 😂

[@siriusb22]

I didn't know putins press corps liked anything let alone lord of the rings🤣🤣🤣

[@Ninja-Alinja]

Pretty much how Japanese schools teach about the end of WW2

[@darkbrightnorth]

@@siriusb22reminds me of the Russian fan fic, the last ring bearer, about LOTR from Sauron’s point of view

[@Timbo6669]

Mount Do(wa de de, de de dum, De de do)om.

[@thedragondemands5186]

The problem is that Sauron was being entirely honest when he said he wanted to bring about Order - his attitude, as later voiced by Saruman, was that "only our methods will change" - and he'd conveniently not mention that. But when he seduced the Elves to make the Rings of Power with him, he was so convincing to Celebrimbor and the rest because his offer was in large part genuine: "if we work together we can not only rebuild Middle-earth from Morgoth's destruction but make it as powerful and glorious as Valinor". He really wanted that. Just that his definition was different. Yes it's said he "indeed repented at first, if only out of fear" -- but it's an interesting take that even he somewhat regretted backing Morgoth after his fall; he joined Morgoth because he was so powerful it would make it easier for Sauron to implement "Order", but over time it would have become increasingly obvious that Morgoth's goal was more like "total chaos and destruction of the world" out of spite for not being able to truly wield the Creator's power. Morgoth ultiimately just wanted to destroy the world in order to prove he was the most powerful being in it. _(As Robert says, they were never truly "ideologically aligned")._ His wrath and power were greater than Sauron's but not his cunning. So it's a bit of a headcanon but it's an interesting take: could Sauron, after Morgoth's defeat, regretfully realize that Morgoth could never have implemented the Order that Sauron desired? Sauron is a craftsman. He doesn't like wanton destruction. Though of course, this isn't exactly "Remorse" for what he did in Morgoth's service, just regret that it didn't ultimately "work" to fulfill his goals.

[@Captain_Insano_nomercy]

*snaps* yessss

[@bluesbest1]

"Regret" in a "It was all for nothing" kind of way? He does hate waste and disorder, so the kind of societal collapse and wasted effort brought about by the defeat of Morgoth would've been very painful to him.

[@morgothfromangband6082]

But Sauron was also insane and super sadistic. He only wanted order for selfish reasons. He will always be wicked and corrupted.

[@valiantredneck]

@@morgothfromangband6082 Super… FFS’s.

[@ThatSockmonkey]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure his "sorry, sorry" bit was just to save his butt. Sauron started manipulating people the moment they let their guard down.

[@MordiganE6]

I always remember the movie quote "Sauron does not share in power". and now I watch this video that explains in detail why.

[@RKroese]

There is only one Lord of the Rings... And he does not share power.

[@istari0]

I agree that Sauron didn't truly repent. He was just hoping for leniency from Eönwë for some reason and when that was not forthcoming, he fled in fear of Manwë's judgement. One of the interesting notes that I ran across (and unfortunately don't remember where) was that there was a version of Sauron's story that he had gone over to Melkor earlier but remained with the Valar as a spy. Sauron was the one who told Melkor when the best time was to launch the attack that destroyed the Two Lamps; only then did he openly side with Melkor. It's interesting to think about how his relationship with Morgoth would have gone had Morgoth won the war for control of Middle-Earth. As you said, their ideologies were really very different and given Morgoth's chaotic and destructive nature, I think he would have eventually turned on Sauron and any other surviving Ainur servants and sought to destroy them as they were also creations of Eru.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

The experience of wielding raw power (and also being submitted to a higher authority) is prone to efface whatever desires and plans as an individual you may have had before, it´s a perfidious on individualty, hollowing one out...

[@owenb8636]

Sauron reminds me of a child here, running away from his parents rather than accepting his punishment. I'm sure that not knowing what it will be makes it worse. This could have led to genuine repentance if he had been taken to the halls of mandos and listened to those he had harmed talk about their suffering. Then his punishment should be to help repair the damage he had done to Middle Earth. I think the Valar often dropped the ball at these critical moments

[@homebody13]

Been re-watching DS9. Wondering if any of the writers were Tolkien fans as I see similarities btw Sauron and The Dominion, the shapeshifters who wanted order - their order over all, and would go to any horrible lengths, even genocide, to achieve it. Their ensnarement of the Cardassians reminds me of what Sauron did to those peoples in the East. Their genetically bred Jem Had’ar and Vorta reminds me of the wraiths and others under the complete thralldom of Sauron. Just really struck me upon watching this stream. Well done as always.

[@Jowii2me]

Wow, as a huge lover of Star Trek and Tolkien’s Legendarium, you’ve given me an excellent parallel that I’ve never noticed before! The Dominion really were “order no matter the cost” and so was Sauron, the Changelings too feeling like only THEY knew the best way to bring order and that THEY were the highest and most evolved being compared to the disgusting “solids” (men, dwarves, and elves compared to Sauron’s Maiarship).

[@homebody13]

@@Jowii2meplus The Dominion and Sauron were both shape-shifters. The parallels are really strong.

[@scottperry7311]

I love DS 9, but Babylon 5 seems to have a stronger connection to Tolkien's stories of Middle Earth. The two overt and powerful races of the First ones were the Shadows, believing in Chaos with natural selection fostering evolution to better forms, and the Vorlons, who believed in strict order. Zha'dum was the home of the shadows, sounding very much like the great kingdom of the dwarves at Khazad-dum. The Rangers fought the shadows. The Mimbari are very elf like in a way. The Shadows spread corruption which causes Chaos and civil war in several civilizations. Sheriden dies and is comes back to life (sort of) to lead the Alliance against the shadow, with a presence he did not have before. At the end of the Shadow War the First Ones, including the Shadows and the Vorlons leave the universe, much like the elves crossing the seas at the end of the Lord of the Rings. When Sheridan is at the end of his life he disappears from the Universe to join them, much like Bilbo, Frodo, and Gimili don't die but go across the see to Valinor. Bilbo and Frodo specifically because they bore the one rings and were for ever changed by it, like Sheridan who was changed by his passing and coming back, though that is much more like Gandalf's rebirth. Of course its not a perfect match, and I'm sure there are some conflicts and more parallels, but sometimes I get a strong Lord of the Rings vibe when I watch Babylon 5.

[@brucepierson9941]

​@@scottperry7311wow, excellent. Babylon 5 is so great. And I think you have figured out why.

[@scottperry7311]

@@brucepierson9941 Great story, great characters, great music, great actors, great chemistry, great special effects (for the time) and the connections the architype and legendary themes and story's. Yea so much makes Babylon 5 a great show.

[@WimRijksen]

He just wanted to make the trains run on time, if there had been any.

[@mollof7893]

Sauron was on the brink of inventing trains, I think.

[@daniel.s.stefanov]

​@@mollof7893 Idk about Sauron, but Saruman for sure.

[@KolonelCeanders]

⁠@@mollof7893I mean plentiful resources, need to complete with the global market, Mordor might have been on the brink of industrialization

[@generaltobias3777]

@@mollof7893 Or at least the goblin orcs were.

[@RKroese]

It simply cannot be done.

[@MLeoDaalder]

Sauron: "I regret my actions" (that led me to being caught, also a bit for following Melkor, now ban me from Aman so that I can properly implement Order here.) Eonwe: "Thank you for turning yourself in and coming quietly, Manwe is waiting for you in Aman." Sauron: (Bugger.) "Wait, is that Gotmoth the Balrog trying to escape in the guise of an Orc?" (Points somewhere behind Eonwe) Eonwe: (Being pure good doesn't mistrust) "Where?" Sauron: (Buh bye!)

[@zimriel]

Good can never prevail over evil, for good is dumb.

[@Adam-ne7qc]

​@@zimriel It's funny comment in this context, because in LotR the opposite is true: The bad guys are powerful, but outsmarted by good guys after all. The evil cannot understand good, and good understands evil well and know how to exploit it.

[@Tacklepig]

@@zimriel honestly, that's a conception of modern times. In ancient mythology, it was common for the evil characters to use brute force, while the heroes use trickery and smarts to get their way. Tolkien does the same. The idea that "good is dumb" mostly comes from a modern idea that deception and trickery is inherently evil and not a tool to be used.

[@clbrans1]

@@Tacklepig I think it was more specific in that it was deception and trickery for evil purposes was considered evil rather than just deception and trickery in general as evil.

[@nouhorni3229]

​@@Adam-ne7qc But evil would have prevailed anyway if it wasn't for evil failing itself. That is the true core of Tolkien. Evil is stronger, but by it's nature unsustainable. The strongest of the Valar marred the world, but this marring is marred too. Like cancer growing a supertumor that lives off the cancer exclusively. (that's a real thing)

[@bomberhattv]

This was so good. I often feel like I know Tolkien backwards and forwards, but I’m floored by how often you bring in an interesting perspective that I hadn’t thought of. I loved Tolkien’s books as a child, one way. As an adult, I enjoy them in a very different way, largely thanks to you. Cheers, and keep up the excellent work.

[@JacktheRah]

Honestly I love how Sauron essentially became the dark lord by having the intention of "bringing order" to the world by being the ruler. It perfectly reflects the problems with power and rule. Given Tolkien's aversion towards power and rulers it just fits perfectly. Intentionally or not the story of Sauron and his One Ring is the perfect analogy for power and how even those with the best intentions fail and become oppressors.

[@j8000]

I'm not sure Tolkien has an aversion to power and rule. False rulers, sure, but not true kings. Ultimately, everything that happens in the setting is in accordance with the will and plan of Eru Iluvatar.

[@JacktheRah]

@@j8000 He did express his disdain for people telling other people what to do. While as you said he was also in favour of an absolute monarchy, I think that this comes from him idealising a perfect king. I do think that this quote is pretty strong implications towards a dislike for power: "Government is an abstract noun meaning the art and process of governing and it should be an offence to write it with a capital G or so to refer to people … The most improper job of any many, even saints (who at any rate were at least unwilling to take it on), is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity …".

[@colbyboucher6391]

The thing is, it's pretty specifically ruling over God that was the problem. Just like the devil, Melkor and Sauron believed that they could do a better job of ruling than Eru Illuvatar. Problem is, since the fate of the world was already sung, they can't _really_ change His plans any more than Melkor did when he screwed up the song the first time around. That made both Melkor and Sauron bitter, vindictive, and violent. Angry toddlers knocking down other people's sandcastles.

[@j8000]

@@colbyboucher6391 exactly, that's love of power and rule. Those refusing authority are in the wrong, and it's in their own interest to submit to Eru's will.

[@jakobrenner2230]

I imagine that if Sauron actually won at first there would have been order and prosperity but at the total expense of everyone else’s free will. Given how corrupted Sauron’s spirit is though, he would have started seeing imperfection everywhere and would start ordering massive purges. The first victims of this would be the hobbits, as Sauron would have considered them inactive and worthless. Then he would have put the orcs into even more slavery and would have elevated cruel men to positions of power. Eventually, his rule would descend to complete and total decadence.

[@rafaelgustavo7786]

Maybe in his point of view, Yes. In addition to being a great reformer who would bring law and order in a scenario of cultural decay after the War of Wrath, I think Sauron saw himself as a Promethean figure who would lift Humanity out of cultural prehistory and technological ignorance: The Silmarillion says that the men of the East and South built cities of stone and had access to metallurgical knowledge. And bringing economic benefits: he proved himself a good economist in Númenor by multiplying the Island's wealth. Furthermore, he had to see himself as a deity of a great world unification: a single theocratic government, a technocratic political-economic system and a religious reformer to bring true belief through dogmatic ideas. This religious engineering reminds me (in some ways) of Gnosticism: a liberating god (Melkor) to rid rational beings of "Archons" (Valar) from a "Demiurgic monster" (Eru) who imprisoned everyone in a world of war and death. Interesting that Sauron spoke this of Melkor in the Second Age, but later he claimed to be Melkor in the Third Age.

[@Alicorn_]

I don't know what Tolkien wrote about it, but my assumption is that Sauron claiming to be Melkor returned was just a way to gain legitimacy with Melkor's former assets that didn't automatically fall in line with Sauron, not him suddenly deciding that he wanted Arda to burn.

[@indio4-215]

​@@Alicorn_ At least in the case of Durin's Bane, I can't exactly see him having any desire to willingly serve under Sauron, a fellow Maia and servant of Melkor who is more of a peer (even if Sauron is more powerful than Durin's Bane) than an outright superior like their old master, Melkor, a Vala (formerly the greatest of the Valar by far in his prime at that).

[@ssjjshawn]

​@@indio4-215Thats probably why Sauron didn't bother to approach Durin's Bane.

[@Swiftbow]

When did he claim to be Melkor? I don't recall ever reading that... but I haven't read all the additional books. Just the Silmarillion, LotR and the Hobbit (and some addendum material).

[@Uncle_Fred]

​@indio4-215 Sauron was primarily interested in using Melkor worship to recruit men to his service. As far as we know, Melkor worship was still widespread in the East and the South of Arda. I doubt Sauron would attempt to recruit the Balrog as the Balrog would almost certainly be familiar with Sauron. The Balrog would view Sauron as a peer and would be unlikely to serve him.

[@davidmiddleton7958]

Under Morgoth's tutelage, Sauron got a taste for power & wanted to spread order & control. By the third age of Middle Earth, Sauron was beyond redemption. His crimes are too numerous to count.

[@3rdPartyIntervener]

"Its not a War Crime if you're on the winning side"

[@exantiuse497]

Sauron never stopped striving for order and control - he imagined that all of his evil deeds were justified for the greater good, for his vision of a world in perfect order. That is the reason why he couldn't be redeemed - he never thought he had done anything wrong to begin with

[@claytonhosty9876]

Sauron of many forms & many names. Now permanently within the world of spirits & the dead, perhaps now wraith Sauron...Seems that Sauron lived within his own world, mind & perceptions. Much as we all do. What is true is not the same for everyone. What he believed & what he was doing was true to him. Truth is not necessary finite but a paradox. Great video Geek!🔥✨

[@carlborneke8641]

To me Sauron’s greatest flaw was ironically his need for perfection. Especially perfect order. In his mind a world of perfect order would be perfect in every other way as well. No evil or suffering. A place that could easily rival The West. Unfortunately perfect order doesn’t allow free will and that is ultimately what Sauron was most against. He couldn’t comprehend why anyone would choose to be free over being completely dominated and ruled by him and him alone. Had Sauron been successful in his plans Middle Earth would indeed have become extremely powerful and prosperous. Evil would have been a thing of the past and so would any strife. Only it would be a false utopia populated by automatons directly under Sauron’s absolute control.

[@UnsoberIdiot]

"a false utopia" Why? No crime, no starvation, no conflict, etc. Why is it a "false utopia"? Throughout history, slaves chose to remain slaves instead of dying.

[@UnsoberIdiot]

Even now, you are bound by laws and norms. You are not free. You accept others limiting your freedom- either because you believe it's for the greater good, or because you fear punishment. Give arguments why it's a "false utopia".

[@gamingoverlord8854]

We already live in a world where free will more than likely doesn't exist. So this free will that Sauron "hates" doesn't exist in the first place

[@joaquincasascortes624]

@@gamingoverlord8854 Since slavery isn't a thing anymore, I'd like to disagree with the notion that free will doesn't exist, considering in most places of the modern age you are free to live your life however you choose to do so. I think people just started deluding themselves that they suddenly lost their rights to have free will, when they never truly lost it at all.

[@PrecioustheMovie1]

This is hands down my favorite lore channel. I love the voice, the well researched and ordered scripts… uhoh I’m becoming Sauron

[@RJALEXANDER777]

Sauron's actions never came from a place of compassion. It came from a place of disgust, he desired to put everything in order according to his view of what an ideal world looked like, to iron out what he perceived as imperfections. He was like an artist trying to create his masterpiece, and people were his paints.

[@razz5614]

so youre saying he was autistic as hell?

[@Beregorn88]

More like, he was a self-proclaimed artist, trying to correct someone else's masterpiece

[@kathryncainmadsen5850]

Not compassion. That’s right. Maybe disgust, but certainly the need to be right. All. The. Time.

[@rexpontiff1001]

Not relevant to the video, but I wanted to say how much I appreciate Robert's immense positivity. Even if I don't always agree with it, Robert's nigh-constant good attitude is most refreshing in an era that constantly seems to view negativity is cool. Thanks a bunch, Robert!

[@timber72]

"It's for your own good" is the most terrifying sentence in any language that exists.

[@markusdegenhardt8678]

Im not so sure about that. By this sentence parents do genuinely protect and foster their children. By this sentence drugs are forbidden by goverments. In depends on the situation how this sentence should be judged.

[@Fronzel41]

The nine most terrifying words in the Westron language are 'I'm from Barad-dur, and I'm here to help.'

[@igorlopes7589]

​@@Fronzel41Or Numenor, for the matter

[@riku213]

My dog when I try to explain to him why I have to wash him after he rolls around in deer shit.

[@AnarchyThirtySeven]

You missed the other part of that which is “I’m from the government, & I’m here to help “ then “it’s for you own good “

[@dr.marykelleher4904]

Lovely piece of analysis. I am almost always deeply impressed by the level of understanding you have of the legendarium and of Tolkien’s underlying worldview. Thank you.

[@lilpixie25]

I would add that Melkor probably inflated Sauron’s sense self righteousness during the time in which they were allied. I don’t think he arrived there in his own, even when at the start of his infatuation with Melkor’s methods.

[@edwardkamau773]

I have always wondered if a guy had an interview with him in the void asking him what was the point of trying to bring order and perfection when humans are usually full of disorder and chaos.

[@lukea136]

Sauron never went to the void.

[@edwardkamau773]

@@lukea136 oh sorry but what happened to his spirit after mordor fell ??

[@MaironTheAdmirable]

@@edwardkamau773 His spirit remained on Middle Earth, but because he had lost all his "native power" when the Ring was destroyed, he could never re-embody himself and his spirit was powerless.

[@rodatamx]

@@edwardkamau773 Became no more than a fart in the wind, powerless going around

[@bluesbest1]

He probably figured he could keep them in line. After all, the Easterlings and Southrons worshipped him as a god. Given a thousand years of his rule, I'm sure the Westerners would as well.

[@rgrwlco]

Sauron's "repentance" has the stink of imperfect contrition. I wonder if not only his fear or punishment, but also his fear of being found out as not having a "sincere sorrow of the heart" may have given him pause to return to Aman. I think I remember reading in People magazine that Tolkien dug that Catholic stuff.

[@combofixed]

He was Anglican not Catholic.

[@rgrwlco]

@@combofixed That is fabulously incorrect

[@Smeaglehasabeard]

@@combofixed how can you just lie like that lol

[@Smeaglehasabeard]

@@combofixed a quote from tolkien "fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision". that quote is of him talking about lord of the rings ( and his other books of his like the sillmarillion) being a catholic work.

[@Mrwhoisdreks]

4:40 personally I like to think that if Souron went to Valinor he would have gotten a sentence of eternity being a mayor of a small elf town and not being able to leave it! He would be allowed to do anything in it(craft, build, rule ect) as long as he isn’t doing anything evil. He would get to create his perfect world of dominion and control in a small little city, it would go on to become the greatest elf city and he would make valinor a better place. Or maybe not, no one really knows, but I like to think the Valar would put his abnormal skills in ruling and efficiency to use!

[@davidwalker891]

Can't totally blame Sauron for backing out. If I traveled to Aman and one of the first things I see is a taciturn Tulkas with his arms crossed, I would totally be "Fuck this shit I'm out!"

[@donuttime2507]

hehe

[@General12th]

Sauron thought about going with Eonwe to Valinor, but he looked through his spyglass and saw Tulkas slapping his belt against his hand with a giant grin on his face.

[@nick0875]

Everyone loves being the Dark Lord until Tulkas shows up.

[@scottperry7311]

The most dangerous villains are those that believe that only they are right, and that only they should have control to do what is best.

[@Darkstar-se6wc]

WEF: “You rang?”

[@Orc_Kisses]

But he was right.

[@Idiodyssey87]

True remorse isn't just regretting your actions or their consequences. It's also regretting the motives that led to your actions. Based on that, I say no.

[@grouch_gaming]

Even before I watch, the fact you ask and not decide earns my respect.

[@jamesgravil9162]

After 6,000+ years of being an evil villain, I doubt it.

[@DKNguyen3.1415]

Well, that's time by human standards though.

[@RKroese]

Time is of no concern in judgements. Long sin and short sin are the same. Specially from the pov of forgiveness

[@3rdPartyIntervener]

what does 6,000 years matter to an immortal being?

[@exantiuse497]

Sauron was in service of evil for far far longer that 6000 years. Sauron became Morgoth's servant somewhere between 1900-3400 in Years of the Valar, which is 100-1600 Valinor years before Years of the Trees. Years of the Sun begin after 1500 Valinor years in Years of the trees, so that's 1600-3100 Valinor years Sauron has been evil before the Sun first rises. Valinor years equal roughly a decade of years of the Sun, so that's 16-31 THOUSAND years Sauron was evil. Add another ~600 after the Sun first rose, and now he has to repent... it would have been very, VERY difficult for him to repent after tens of thousands of years of doing evil while thinking he is in the right - if he was to realise how wrong he had been, surely it would have happened long before that

[@joaquincasascortes624]

I think it's a matter of perspective, as he himself didn't see his actions as evil ones, having distorted his notion of right and wrong.

[@beaker_guy]

I have raised children. At some point, you need to let them grow up and rule themselves. Sauron never understood that. ✅

[@benandrovich112]

Robert!!! You are absolutely the best!! I’ve loved GOT, and now dipped my tore into Tolkien and you’ve been my gateway drug into it!! You’re awesome

[@benandrovich112]

Toe, not tore…

[@ravhol2292]

I want a series about SAURON. This character you rarely see but you can feel him everywhere

[@hodgrix]

So well dissected and explained. Sauron’s story is very contradictory at times however fascinating but this really makes perfect sense of it!!

[@Sondreign]

What a great video! Love your Tolkien stuff!

[@_Caedwyn]

something very very interesting you said "he thought he alone should be in charge and anyone who didnt agree was against him" is the EXACT mentality the creators of witcher and rings of power and .... have xD

[@Maegor_Brightflame]

always knew Sauron was really just a good guy at heart

[@devlinthornicroft9975]

Yeah, a real sweetie. Or as my wife would say - “kawaiii!!”

[@TheKain202]

All Maiar are. Melkor is the only one who's pure evil, being the origin of the thing and shit. Sauron? He's twisted, but at the core of it is the genuine desire to uplift Middle Earth that got corrupted into something abhorrent by Melkor's powers and his own swelling ego and blind ambition.

[@jakobrenner2230]

“Tolkien’s characters are rarely as two dimensional as his detractors like to imply.” Thank you! It seems the writers at RoP didn’t understand that judging from how they wrote Galadriel as a completely different character.

[@thenaturalmidsouth9536]

They absolutely ruined her character.....they lost me in the first episode when an elf addressed her as "Commander Galadriel."

[@driumissimo]

I'm not a huge fan of RoP but they definitely knew how to write grey characters. Adar was one of the few good things about the show.

[@jakobrenner2230]

@@driumissimo I think Adar was a great concept too! I always was very intrigued at things Tolkien didn’t specify like the original Orc progenitors. That and the obscure Boldogs. A shame the show isn’t very kind to many of the established characters of the Legendarium.

[@Verbux]

@@jakobrenner2230 If a character falls out of the scope of THE AGENDA™ then the writers with any real talent are certainly able to write up a good character.

[@dudeboydudeboy-zj8kd]

how about a video that discusses the works that inspired lord of the rings (black douglas, princess and the goblin, works of william morris, the marvelous land of the snergs, and babbit book) and exactly did they inspired the series

[@epser5842]

I love that Sauron being a control freak is mirrored in his ring, which makes the wearer think only they can keep it safe or use it properly. That's why he could never comprehend someone giving up that feeling of wanting control.

[@douglasharley2440]

9:51 lol, i just _knew_ the "road to hell" aphorism was going to make a very timely appearance! as always, much thanks.

[@oregonwoodwizard]

Sauron is like the steadfast engine of industry. Chugging along requiring all life forms to bend to its timely and scheduled order of its own self interest.

[@nickcunningham6344]

I've seen the movies twice and have never even read the books, but your videos have made me obsessed with this fantasy world. If I wasn't so busy with classes and finals coming up, I'd be rewatching the whole trilogy again right now. Probably just what I'll do after finals.

[@colindunnigan8621]

What is interesting (to me, anyway) was what if Sauron was content to "tend his own garden," as it were, (and I can't believe I used that analogy, what would Master Samwise have thought?). If he'd contented himself with ruling the areas of middle earth directly under his influence (Harad, Rhum, Khand, etc), maybe he could have reached some accommodation with his enemies. Unlikely? Probably, but still an interesting bit of speculation.

[@Swiftbow]

Those who desire power and control to the extent Sauron did are discontent in that scenario. They always want more.

[@Valsorayu]

@@Swiftbow Answering a "What if" with "No" is kinda uncreative don't you think?

[@Xahnel]

Even if he had for a time, he would have eventually come for Middle Earth anyways, because they weren't under his control. They were mortal and imperfect beings, where as (in his mind) only he had the vision and long term capabilities to adequately manage the chaotic impulses of mortals.

[@Swiftbow]

@@Valsorayu Maybe... but it's also answering the question. I don't think Sauron would be Sauron if he behaved that way. Now, if his repentance from before was actually real and he stuck to it? Then maybe I could see that scenario happening. The big "what if" I always saw from this tale was what if Eonwe had forgiven Sauron personally instead of passing the buck to Manwe. Would THAT have given Sauron the little bone he needed for his pride to actually feel some grief?

[@honourabledoctoredwinmoria3126]

Of you look at what he says in On the Rings of Power, I don't think he'd ever be content. He wanted the power to shape the world and to lord over the beings that could help in that task. That meant elves. Rhun and Hand were nice as far as it goes, but the men who lived there could not really understand his desire to shape a paradise outside the thumb of the Valar. Even dwarves couldn't. The only kindred he had, the only ones who could really understand him, were the Noldor. They were the only ones who also fled paradise out of the need to control. So to him, they should be his natural allies, and when they weren't he wanted to dominate them. I don't think he could rest content in the east, not so long as Gil Galad and Galadriel had their own kingdoms and changed the world as he wanted to do, but outside his control.

[@Turnoutburndown]

Great vid, as always. Your stuff reminds me of Historia Civils, every video is good

[@milosstevanovic4117]

Would you make a video the analysis of the conversation between finrod and andreth and the idea of ​​the incarnation of Ilúvatar in Arda? Thank you for your effort.

[@Jenisonc]

Best video I've seen in quite some time. Well done. Thanks!

[@Vergil-X1]

No Even in defeat, his final act was one of defiance.

[@Darkstar-se6wc]

@@paxChristi123- *through and through

[@xalmor6044]

You realize that the title isn't actually asking you a question right?

[@scottwilliams895]

Outstanding video! One of my favorites you've ever made!!

[@maxt5319]

Completely unrelated to this, but you should 100% do some Realm of the Elderlings content. I'd watch that, it would be great!

[@chadwolf5596]

This in deep geek is the best in his videos about Lord of the rings

[@salgadoguigo]

did you say @2:15 that "Melkor returned VIA the destruction of the twoo trees"? As, in implying that he was released by the felling of the trees?

[@josiahp.6960]

Like Hexxis

[@rbjmason]

It is easy to imagine Sauron as just being a powerful corporate leader with gifted organisational skills. I can imagine him wandering the confluence of the Gladden and Anduin, looking for his Precious like an old man looking for his beloved cat. But then he had to start organising things again...

[@Tacklepig]

idk, I feel like if anything, the idea that he had good intentions to me would be reason enough to see a redemptive quality there. I can imagine a world where Sauron truly did not see his perspective as wrong, but Morgoth's - thus being sincerely repentant for serving Morgoth, but not willing to be judged as he did no wrong. Not out of fear or cowardice, but out of a conviction that his way was right for the world, which tbh isn't different from the perspective of the Valar - only that they're the more powerful ones here. We don't know what a world under Sauron's rule would actually have looked like, once there wasn't war anymore. He couldn't have attempted to oppose the Valar again, as Valinor was outside of the world; and he wouldn't have had motivation to bring Morgoth back into the world, since he saw how chaotic and destructive Morgoth truly was. I can actually see Sauron fancying himself a benevolent dictator, in a way. Of course, that's not how it would have worked, as he was horrible at actually planning, and also very destructive to nature itself. The failure of a world led by Sauron would likely have been in Sauron's shortcomings, not in his tyranny, cruelty or malice.

[@AllAhabNoMoby]

The absolute most central theme of Tolkien's work is the absolute corruption that power has on any living creature. There is a reason he was an anarchist. He knew no one can handle power. LotR was about this theme but so was Ainulindalë, Morgoth's downfall, Sauron's downfall and all those who went down with them, to the smallest hobbit. And very few seem to see that this theme is still the most relevant and important today. We are ruled by corrupt people because power corrupts. There is no antidote, no immunity. It is so sad to me that so many seem to love Tolkien's work and no one applies its lessons to their own lives.

[@markusdegenhardt8678]

Oh, i would disagree with your perspective. Tolkien did wrote indeed about the corrupting effect power can have. But i dont think it was an absolute effect. There were many great heros in middle earth who had enormous power. Yet many of them havent been corrupted at all. It appears to me that power does corrupt if the level of power exceeds the level of humility, moral integrity and character strength. And i also have a diffent opinion about our real life situation. I agree that there is a fair bit of corruption in most goverments but i wouldnt call all goverments or other influential figures corrupt. It appears to me that everybody is corrupt no matter their power. Because this very idea of corruption interessed me since a long time im very vigilant since then about corruption in my own life. And i observed how i and other people around me with little power have often had corrupt ideas and impulses. But we powerless can hide it more easily. Our influence is too small to observe our corruption. I dont think that power is what makes us corrupt. I think that power is what reveals our corruption. Thats why the powerful appear so corrupt. They cant hide their corrpution like we powerless can.

[@unintelligentlifeform7180]

So if Sauron allied with Morgoth out of some common goal/ exploit an opportunity for more control/leadership....what is his alliance with the orcs? They are not very organized...But is that the attraction? Something to fix? Is it because they admire/fear him and thus allow him to rule them? Like Morgoths left behind works?

[@arnaudbouret5562]

Being Morgoth's former lieutenant, Sauron is the best placed to exercise power and control over the Orcs after Morgoth's defeat at the end of the First Age, and he makes use of them, primarily for war. It isn't an alliance between Sauron and his Orcs; the relationship is about a master exercising absolute power over his servants - which ends up going as far as altering and creating a new breed of Orcs who are larger, stronger and no longer afraid of the Sun, but no less violent (Sauron does that late in the Third Age).

[@Wbfuhn]

Repentance has to be genuine. True repentence requires feeling shame for ones actions. He could have set up shop in Mordor as written but rather than amass armies he could have amassed treasures and made gifts. He could have persuaded the inhabitants to do the labor while running a successful business selling crafted goods. He would have then gained allies from the west rather than amass his own armies. The rings could still be made but rather than deceive and bind them he could have offered them the choice to become allies and an aid to him beyond the grave. Rather than force it they could choose and some may have chosen if they trusted him closely.

[@MrNicoJac]

I like the version where Sauron had a moment of realizing what he'd done was wrong. But then his pride (wishing to avoid the shame of having to ask forgiveness/face consequences) got the better of him. And that's the point where it was no longer about order, but about ego.

[@Bklyn93]

that’s very similar to Saruman. IIRC Saruman has a moment similar, of fear and regret, but then his pride and arrogance push away his last chance at redemption

[@unpronouncable2442]

5:40 I believe words you are looking for here are Doyleist and Watsonian from Sir Arthur C. Doyle and Dr John H. Watson. respectively. Former an author writing the story from the outside and the later an author writing the story from the inside.

[@chrischris4181]

sauron stopped being sauron the moment morgoth took hold of him. the decision not to destroy morgoth, was perhaps the worst in the entire history of middle earth. for even from his prison he is able to run his puppets to continue to create chaos.

[@TuringTalesTV]

It's compelling to think about how Sauron's love for order and control could have led to his downfall, turning him from Myron to Sauron. Delving deeper into Tolkien's characters, beyond their portrayals in the mainstream movies or books is quite intriguing.

[@jamesdooling4139]

You know what I wanna see? A video showing a 'family tree' of power from Supreme Being down to Gandalf. Every time I see more, it's like I understand fewer of the layers.

[@vinimagus]

Great video as usual. Thank you very much.

[@kevinfelix2543]

the best villians see themselves as the hero.

[@misteroz]

Whilst I'm obviously aware that Tolkien leaned away from direct allegory, his understanding and incorporation of the human condition was so incredibly spot-on.

[@3lancerofficialmaybe871]

As the tower fell "I make Eru my lord and saviour and I repent for my sins! Yes made it"

[@onceamusician5408]

3:37 speaks of attrition, a catholic notion which is NOT VALID repentance which is fear based is NO repentance. this is catholic attrition, a doctrine to be rejected

[@SelfProclaimedEmperor]

Catholics prefer Contrition. To do works of good for the sake of pleasing God, not out of fear. Protestants do Attrition. "make money in life, step on people, then just ask Jesus for forgiveness at the last minute."

[@shieldphaser]

You know... the part around 7:40, where Sauron's grows ever more controlling... I wonder what set that off, really? It doesn't feel like he would just become that way without reason. Rather I suspect there were a number of incidents where things he didn't control so tightly went awry. Civil wars, murder and other politicking in the east. Given enough of that, and the fact he wouldn't die of old age as the humans and other creatures there would, he likely started seeing a pattern - a cycle of suffering which could only be broken by iron-clad control. Ironically, this attempt to grasp control would end up causing far more suffering than it would prevent.

[@tucksiver8763]

LOVED that. Thanks.

[@SpottedHares]

And Sauron was a Maiar, and yes we may think of LotR as fantasy but within it's own universe much of that fantasy had faded by the time we reached the third age. Yes the wizards would come latter, the Numenor and elves still existed, but as far as the spirts from the beginning of the world that had a part in shaping it Sauron was really all that was left.

[@raindeargames5160]

"You're like the thief who isn't the least bit sorry he stole, but is terribly, terribly sorry he's going to jail." - Rhett Butler

[@deusexaethera]

This makes me more sympathetic to Sauron. I'm just as likely as he was to ask "who the hell are the current rulers to say what is truly right and good for the world? Just because god said so? That's not good enough. Results are what really matter. I can put things in order at least as well as they could."

[@thenamesianna]

I'm impressed by how much lore did one man create. Tolkien is one of the writers I admire the most.

[@PauxloE]

So in DnD terms, Morgoth was chaotic evil, while Sauron was lawful evil.

[@stormisuedonym4599]

Precisely.

[@OroborOSX11]

It’s actually interesting to characterize Sauron in a…logical light. I used to really not think much of him as a character, because he seemed so…inert and even generic as a “bad guy.” Granted, that is all we really see in LotR, but The Silmarillion sheds some light into why he acted the way he did. And, quite frankly, looking at it from Sauron’s perspective, his actions make a kind of sense.

[@LochNessHamster]

Okay, here's my question for lore discussion: what does Sauron actually _do_ with his time? Like, I get that domination is both his main life goal and favorite hobby, but once he has control of everything what would he actually do with his time? What interests him? What does he do for fun? Does he feel joy?

[@Bklyn93]

Likely what would interest him would be tinkering, crafting, engineering, industry; as far as joy, only insofar as it was orderly. Only insofar as the things that brought him joy, where obedient to him and worshipful of him

[@SelfProclaimedEmperor]

He would spend time building weapons and magic items, his favorite hobbies, so he could use them to take over aman, the land of the valar/gods

[@IanHeins]

Nice work dude thanks

[@mileslegionis]

I know you had mentioned it before, but the repentance that I was thinking of was his Spirit looking West or something after he had died. I remember something about his Spirit lingering and then a wind out of the West

[@SMunro]

Linguistic analysis of elf dictionary indicates Saurons tower was the astronomical observatory of the Eldar. Mordor was their homeland-abandoned because of volcanic eruption.

[@MrJinxmaster1]

Control being his corruption fits so well into the writing of the shadow of mordor games (mostly the 2nd entry) that you just know the writers were true fans. The way that celebrimbor's wraith became ever more obsessed with control after wielding his copy of the one ring shows that the darkness of that magic wasn't merely its tether to sauron, but the very alignment of it's core design.

[@marki-l4c]

i never considered he might repent. i just figured he was who he was and his level of evil was a function of how it affected others but not a change in himself over time

[@psychedelicartistry]

Frodo: *Puts the ring on in Mount Doom* Sauron: "Jesus please forgive me."

[@Cat_Woods]

Repentance without real remorse for what one did wrong is not repentance. It's pretense. It's like Middle Earth's version of a ukulele apology.

[@dontgivetwothwips3615]

And now I’m picturing Sauron making an apology video while strumming a ukulele and sing-talking about how he may have made a few bad decisions a few thousand years ago but the Fellowship is just a bunch of haters spreading gossip.

[@Cat_Woods]

@@dontgivetwothwips3615 LOL. Great image.

[@civil_leuthie]

When any man (or Maia) chooses a path of the ends justifying the means, they have to live with those means. Taken far enough, the means become them and justifying those means becomes more important than reaching the ends. Evil is often an anthropomorphized sunk cost fallacy. The individual becomes so invested in the means, that there is no repentance and remorse, there is only justification and validation.

[@jimaparks]

The bit between Eonwe and Sauron has bothered me since I first read it. Yes, Eonwe couldn’t judge Sauron, but he could certainly take Sauron prisoner and bring him back to Manwe for judgement. To release Sauron on his own recognizance seems to be a huge oversight. On the other hand, maybe Eonwe and his allies didn’t know that Sauron was actually Gorthaur, who had done so many horrible things.

[@to4mac]

Seems like he followed morgoth’s playbook, who also pretended to give up his desire of power. It's the song of discord they sing!

[@hima_da_true_right]

I remember hearing from some video in KZbin that after Morgoth been defeated at the beginning of the S.A he started to heal the land but his intention to dominate it after.

[@a_random_soul_on_the_internet]

What if instead of kneeling before Manwë or hiding in Middle-Earth, Sauron tried a third option: help Arda heal from Morgoth's evil. If Sauron had done charity work for at least a thousand years, I can see Manwë and the Valar forgiving him or giving him a lesser punishment.

[@MourningCoffeeMusic]

Control is so easily corrupting. It’s what leads to countless wars and power-grabs in our own world.

[@davidschaftenaar6530]

I do doubt that Sauron was truly out to create order first and foremost. I think it was about power, control, domination... You see that clearly in the lack of discipline, lack of cleanliness, shoddy craftsmanship and lawlessness of his soldiers. You see it in the pollution, the slag piles and the foul fumes found in Mordor. That's the kind of place Sauron creates when he's left to his own devices. Establishing order was little more than a rationalisation for what he actually wanted.

[@hunterwyeth]

How often did elves have children? Did they just stop thousands of years ago? There seem so few and they all seem so old.

[@DiscoDumpTruck]

Wondered this so many times. Thanks for asking.

[@mariuss1590]

I belive Elves tend to have two or three children with few exceptions in their entire lives

[@istari0]

The earliest generations of Elves had larger families but later on they typically had 2-3. Elves were only interested in having children during one phase of their lives and afterwards they pursued other interests. They also had the ability to control exactly when the female Elf would conceive. They also seldom had children during times of upheaval.

[@feedtheorist9944]

@@istari0 wait so are you saying they could have sex but control whether it created a pregnancy or not? surely tolkein characters wouldnt be having sex for pleasure lol?

[@istari0]

@@feedtheorist9944 I don't remember Tolkien ever writing about that but I think he would have mentioned it if Elves only had sex when they wanted to reproduce. Elves simply have much control over their bodies than Men do. Tolkien covers this in The Nature of Middle-Earth and also in the Peoples Of Middle-Earth if I recall correctly.

[@porcine83]

Sauron didn't repent for the same reason so few real people don't repent. We don't truly believe we've done anything wrong. Once again Tolkien's insight and genius show through.

[@Despondencymusic]

I think they brought these sentiments to life beautifully in season 2 of The Rings of Power.

[@jaykaramales3087]

Robert, I'm going to go out on a sturdy limb and suggest you are the greatest Tolkien scholar of the 21st Century.

[@oneworldonehome]

_"Do not combat evil because it will seduce you as you do so. With only ambition, you will combat evil and it will always be victorious. For its proponents were once combatants against it in many cases. In other words, many of those who now support and speak for evil were once opposed to it. Therefore, the man and woman of Knowledge do not generate conflict but only find meaningful ways to work with conflict to support and to foster resolution in life."_ *The New Message from God* » The Problem of Evil and the Forces of Dissonance

[@johnchapman5125]

Thank you!

[@angryherbalgerbil]

Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you. Friedrich W. Nietzsche

[@Jamoni1]

Dude sounds like my boss.

[@Lengsel7]

I know that somewhere along the line, for a couple thousand years, Sauron performed ritual human sacrifice, to grow his power and darkness....not really what I'd call the repenting type.

[@Milton2k]

A true villain never repents... the most dangerous ones as you said, Think are right.

[@ledanoir1239]

What about the 4th and later eras? Did he repent as a wandering spirit?

[@ancientfoglet9600]

He didnt. The Elves leaving middle earth, the dwarves hiding underground and even the orcs prefering to mind their own business, we witness magic vanishing from the earth. And with that came the rise of totalitarianism, be it fascism or communism - total control, power and order seemed inevitable at the time. So the moral of the story is, at least in Tolkiens mind, that Sauron wins in the end ... though he didn't dare to write that chapter down.

[@jeanpaulsinatra]

Loved order and planning? Sauron's villain arc is ocd? He turned heel because he was in a hippy squat and he was the only one who ever washed the pots

[@willajer]

Sounds like my manager

[@GnohmPolaeon.B.OniShartz]

Repentance is not simply apologizing. Its deeply understanding your mistake and turning from it to never do it again. He never repents becauae he never realizes his mistake. He certainly blames Morgoth, not himself for any failure and does not recognize his own role to its fullest. Ah. You get there in the very end. Not taking it back though.