Beren & Luthien | A Sojourn In The Halls of Mandos

[@NerdoftheRings]

Happy Tolkien Reading Day, mellon! Great topic choice. I'm glad to see you here celebrating your first TRD as a KZbinr!

[@MenoftheWest]

Happy Tolkien Reading Day buddy! Great choice for the collab, I think the love of Beren and Lúthien was stronger than many dooms and fates in Arda, and it goes to show how the love between two peoples can be so immense. Cheers buddy!

[@David_Fellner]

I think you're right (about their love being stronger than other fates and dooms). I always assumed that Beren stayed in the Halls of Mandos because he was "meant" to be re-united with Lúthien. It was only just now that I caught the part about him "tarrying" there - tarrying, implying he made the _decision_ to stay. For a mortal man to choose to stall death in the Legendarium is huge! That indicates to me that their love was, indeed, up there with other famous dooms like the Oath of Fëanor and the Curse of Isildur.

[@TheRedBook]

@@David_Fellner That word is important - it pretty much made me start thinking about the Beren & Luthien story in a different way. People usually discuss all the events leading to Beren going to Mandos and then the part after it but his stay there is really significant!

[@painlord2k]

@@David_Fellner The connection between Beren and Lutien happens the first time Lutien saves his life from the mortal wound. This is the moment they are linked together forever. This is what prevents Mandos from doing what he usually does.

[@thirdelevator]

How dare you besmirch the love of Samwise and Bill the Pony?!?? Love the channel, keep up the good work!

[@David_Fellner]

"Beren and Lúthien," one of the few stories where love actually _does_ conquer all... even death. Great video, TRB. Even when you make videos about stories that I'm convinced I know all there is to know bout, you shed light on some part of it that I had missed before.

[@TheRedBook]

I usually think people will know everything I'm talking about or see it in the same way - always surprised (in a good way) when someone says they think about the Legendarium in a different way after seeing one of the videos :D

[@TheRedBook]

Happy Tolkien Reading Day to everyone. Hope this brief look at a different side of the Beren & Luthien story was enjoyable for you. My next video will be answering a strange question I received about The One Ring but one that Tolkien has an answer for!

[@alanmike6883]

Hey man Do you think you can do or someone can do a video about the Dunedain? Been trying to explain to a friend about them but they've never read the books. Their origins. Their rise, their fall. Their advantages over over men and their ultimate fate..

[@TheRedBook]

I think other channels have probably covered the basic history thing. I might do a video in the future about what makes them different - maybe explaining the terms and who they descend from. I'll make a note of the suggestion.

[@alanmike6883]

@@TheRedBook That's what I meant. What makes them different. All he has to go by is the movies so he says the ones that live a while longer 😁 But you and I know it's a lot more then that 👍

[@keyboarddancers7751]

Loved your subtlely barbed comment at the end of this video! Almost prompts me to go and listen to Dragash again!

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Happy Tolkien Reading Day (even if you don’t care for the TS or TE 😂). This is of course the paradigm example of the theme, yet you managed to bring something new to it, as always. Well done!

[@TheRedBook]

Do you care about TS or TE? :D And thanks, I love the idea of Reading Day - but for collaborative things like this. I will be checking out your video when I am home from work! :)

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

@@TheRedBook I just found your rather explicit call-out hilarious 😂

[@TheRedBook]

@@TolkienLorePodcast Haha I think I wrote that part in around the time I was hearing Carl Hostetter got taken off an event, and the responses from certain folks to his points on an article. I was clearly annoyed in some way 😅

[@tominiowa2513]

@@TolkienLorePodcast I rather enjoyed your demolition of a Tolkien Society paper that put outside agenda ahead of what Tolkien actually meant in his writings.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Happy TRD and excellent choice of topic! I was waiting to see if you would bring up Turin, who's supposed to show up again at the Dagor Dagorath - do you think he left Arda and will return, or does he need an EXTRA long stay in Mandos to find healing? Also, I have to ask: did you get pErMisSiOn to be so based in the last 30 seconds? 😎

[@TheRedBook]

Someone stayed for the last 30 seconds :D ? Originally I had a whole section at the beginning about the Estate and the Society but I thought I should get right into the material. Couldn't resist a little dig at the end there. This celebration is more about the collaboration than supporting those organisations. With Turin, your guess may be as good as mine! It's one of those things where Tolkien changed his thoughts here and there but then didn't finish it. If Turin is meant to show up at Dagor Dagorath and play his part then I have to say it means he'd have been in Mandos - perhaps dwelling there for so long because fate would decree he had another role to play. I don't know if you'd agree that Turin leaving the Circles of the World and then returning is so significant that it seems almost messianic and Tolklien would have discussed such an event in greater detail?

[@ransombaggins9301]

Absolutely wonderful! Well done! Thank you so much. I'm a 49 year old man who has been in love with Middle Earth since the 70's and it's people like you who help keep the fire alive and well year after year. I appreciate your work and perpspective here. It's everything I can do to hold back the tears thinking again on these beautiful friendships and true loves in Middle Earth. Keep it up!

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks a lot! Never tire of speaking to those who were reading Tolkien before I was born :D . Shows the quality of Tolkien when his work is still so emotionally effective after so long. Beren & Luthien is worthy of that title of one of the Great Tales.

[@lowlandnobleman6746]

Didn’t even know it was Tolkien Reading Day today. I guess I’ll have a short read of the Hobbit before getting some sleep. Happy Tolkien Reading Day, Red Book.

[@SophiesDriver]

Thank you for this. This morning I read Ainulindalë, one of my favorite passages--to me, a passage that never gets enough love--to celebrate Tolkien Reading Day. Ilúvatar's love for the Ainur, and for the Children of Ilúvatar, evident throughout Ainulindalë, has caused me to shudder, brought tears to my eyes, every time since first reading, that I've read, written, or listened to the passage. "And thus was the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar established at last in the Deeps of Time and amidst he innumerable stars. Happy Tolkien Reading Day 2022 everybody." Yeah, I'll probably post this same comment elsewhere :-)

[@martystrasinger3801]

Incredibly well done. The story of Beren and Luthien on it’s own is devastating in it’s beauty and power. But the unspoken implications of the story are worthy of their own treatise.

[@mellonheads]

Happy Tolkien Day Steven! It's fun being on your platform for a change but I'm delighted to see you still bossing it ! Great topic, keep it up

[@TheRedBook]

Thank you! Will definitely be checking out your video later today and all the others. Going live at 00:00 was a bit different so I've not had time this morning to get watching! Glad you managed to get your video out for it.

[@istari0]

Thank you for this video; yet again you have shown me something in Tolkien I never thought about before just from that one word 'tarried.' It seems to me that the love of Beren and Lúthien was a case of the whole being much greater than the sum of its parts and they were able to transcend or allowed to transcend the normal limits of their respective kinds. On the other hand, it seems to me that the Tolkien Estate has fallen into the hands of those who are more interested in how much money they can make than truly furthering Tolkien's legacy. As for the Tolkien Society, all I can say there that when I do run across something of theirs online, I keep having a hard time finding material I really recognize as Tolkien.

[@robertburman3895]

Love what you do brother. I have got to read this 100 times and yet You have made me look at this beautiful story in a different light. Cheers mate.

[@TheRedBook]

Thank you once again Robert!

[@dadsbarmy254]

Of all the story's of middle earth this is the one i love the most, as do i love your interpretation of it.

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks very much, there's a lot to say about this story and I'm happy others are enjoying my take on it!

[@ladyalaina42]

Beautiful telling of this beloved story so integral to the LOTR.

[@TheRedBook]

Glad you enjoyed it :D

[@Amleea]

Thank you so much for making this video! I love Beren and Luthien's story!

[@TheRedBook]

Thank you for watching :D

[@MadCityBells]

Superb, beautifully narrated analysis, as always. Thank you!

[@timbotook6447]

Happy Tolkien Reading Day my friend!

[@jesusaguilarjr6655]

Always love the story of Beren and Luthien showing just how strong their love truly was. Thank you for this wonderful video.

[@Aurora-qn2dx]

Happy Tolkien Reading day..lovely analisis and video. Goes to show love never fails ..and as for the characters Beren and Luthien love conquered all ..even death and destiny..Tolkien trully knew how to write about everything. Happy reading day to all 🧝🏻‍♂️

[@johnt.inscrutable1545]

Your contribution was most excellent and enjoyable. Thank you for participating. As an additional benefit to me, I don’t know that I would have found your channel had this event not occurred. Plus I agree with your carefully worded sentiments about the Tolkien Society, which it often seems would have no mention of Tolkien made even in private conversation if they had their deepest desires. I strongly believe that the Professor would not have approved of this rather monolithic approach to the use of his materials. I know he had certain string opinions about what is an inappropriate use of his creativity, but I don’t think he meant for it to not stir discussion about what was written as well as speculation about what was left unsaid or what might have been. Our litigious society would not have suited his demeanor, I am sure. Nor does it suit mine for it stifles the motivation to create and share one’s ideas. If one is concerned that their ideas be maintained pristine and holy then publication and, by extension, profit is a bad path down which to travel with those ideas. But then again, no one asked me! Nor have they ever, lol! Best wishes and thank you for your contribution and I look forward to exploring your work, but beware, I may speculate about it, or even question it! LOL. JTI

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks John, I'm glad some people have found the channel through the event. Makes it even more worthwhile taking part. I also agree completely. The Estate and even the Society both seem to not take J.R.R. into consideration. I honestly don't think he would be as extreme as they are. It's possibly due to people with less (or no) talent profiting from his creatiivty - hoping to keep the gravy train rolling. It's sad that it's come to the point where they are dictating under which conditions you can even talk about Tolkien's works... Speculating and questioning is completely fine. I am always happy to read and discuss other views !

[@johnt.inscrutable1545]

@@TheRedBook Just imagine a world with no laws of inheritance. You and your spouse and underage children could enjoy the wealth created by the adults. The children were only guaranteed an education and maybe a very small startup allowance. On the death of the first spouse the total wealth would be haves to be dealt with as below. And on the death of the second spouse all else was redistributed (save if there are minor children for whom the proper allotments are made) to public charities run entirely by volunteers for them to help provide food, shelter and health care to those who had them not. And malfeasance would be punished most severely. Perhaps this would remove the desire to acquire to the Nth degree. We would acquire enough for our normal needs with a small nest egg and for the allowances of our children as they came of age. After that the children could use the allowance along with their educations to amass their own more modest (than now) fortunes. It could be an interesting way to redistribute the non-circulating fiat and real wealth. Every generation would have a shot at the “American” dream anywhere in the world, because there aren’t enough Americans to hold all the wealth here if it were more evenly distributed, but capped by death, who should be that final equalizer. Evil lol.

[@BenFrayle]

@@TheRedBook The Estate at least does good works with the Tolkien bucks, funding scholarships and so forth (according to their material anyway), but the Society is...... well, they are what they are I suppose.

[@LeHobbitFan]

Happy Tolkien Reading Day, my man! And thanks for tying this in with the Athrabeth, it's my favourite lore-text of the Legendarium!

[@ladyalaina42]

It is my favorite tale as well, and I adore Finrod as he so represented the Elven ideal of teacher and justice.

[@LeHobbitFan]

@@ladyalaina42 Yes! And the fact he was the first Noldo elf to meet humans makes it all the more meaningful

[@TheRedBook]

As I always say, an Athrabeth video will appear one day on the channel :D it's one of my favourite texts.

[@deanzaZZR]

Such a beautifully sad story. Thank you for the retelling.

[@TheRedBook]

Just the end part! Saving other parts of Beren & Luthien for future videos :)

[@neant2046]

Happy Tolkien Reading Day! Hey, no love story can beat the one of Sam and Bill the Pony! Except for the one of Gollum and the One Ring. Anyway, this topic has been officially TheRedBooked as well ;) You were right, it is important. Moreover, I find in it a beautiful connection with the perception of death in Ancient Egypt. Ancient Egyptians did not say words like "dead" and "died". Instead, they had a phrase that sounded like "his/her heart grew tired", which actually meant that the person would soon, if not already, pass away. I really like the idea that only Luthien's presence could give Beren the power that was necessary to be able to heal from that tiredness and to continue his journey to the afterlife.

[@gregk2369]

Another fantastic video on a topic I had never contemplated. Thank you for adding another layer of depth to a seemingly bottomless tale

[@lordofthehouseofstormcrows8615]

Well met my friend! Hope all is well with you. I am excited to see your analysis. They're always spot on! Keep up the great work Mellon! Ecthelion!!! P.S. love that when Beren does hold the silmaril it does not burn him! But...he gets an unplanned amputation!

[@LuisAlbright]

Well done as usual. Beautiful and enlightening. Thank you!

[@zacklemay3543]

I love how insightful your videos are. You always offer different ways to analyze Tolkien and explore his writings. You blow me away all the time and remind me just how rich these stories are.

[@lycanthrose]

Great video! I would like to think that the Fellowship met again in the after life for a pint.

[@heartofahalfling3142]

Happy Tolkien Reading Day! New to your channel and really enjoying your content

[@TheRedBook]

Thank you very much :)

[@MistaGify]

Happy Tolkien Reading Day! I had no idea it even existed, haha! But once again, thank you for shedding much-needed light on the Legendarium's greatest love story and a key aspect of its metaphysics. I had always given little thought to Beren's tarrying in The Halls of Mandos. This is his story, the greatest love story of The Silmarillion, thus his and Luthien's love alone are strong enough to become the first to defy fate-This has always been my simple explanation, no more and no less. But your exploration into the literally fate-defying powers of love and friendship, with the 3 Hobbit Ring-bearers as well as Legolas and Gimli as your examples, have once again expanded my persective and understanding. Excellent work! Now I want to ask you about the similar fate of Aragorn and Arwen. In Lothlorien, Tolkien writes that when Aragorn left the hill of Cerin Amroth, he "came there never again as living man". A short time after he dies, Arwen returns to that very same hill, now bereft of any powers of preservation, and lays down to die for good. Do you think Tolkien meant anything deeper with "came there never again as living man"? Was it just epic fantasy prose? Because for me, it is my personal fanfiction that like Beren before him, Aragorn was granted the sole exception among Men to refuse The Halls of Mandos, to wait in Middle-Earth for his beloved where they bethrothed their love. Then when she came and laid down her life, Arwen's spirit was reunited with his on that very hill, then leaving for The Halls and passing out of the world together. Do you think there is any justification for this interpretation? If not, it would make for some thematically appropriate fanfiction, no?

[@audreydimmel6674]

I ACCEPT THIS THEORY 10000% Also I'm gonna cry even more now...

[@alanmike6883]

And epic tale of the first age of true love and sacrifice. Just like tuor and idril

[@thestraightroad305]

Thank you for this beautiful commentary. Your grasp of redemptive philosophy is remarkable to me, as a Christian. I saw this in the commentaries on Morgoth, and many others also. I wish you well and that your journey of understanding bears fruit eternally. Thank you again for bringing us all a deeper understanding of Tolkien’s marvelous works. I, too, wish the Athrabeth had been included in the Silmarillion. The fascinating deduction of Finrod that Eru would have to act Himself in the matter of man’s salvation is, of course, exactly what happened (Hebrews 2:14-15). Now, for us, we await the remaking of Arda with joy and hope.

[@laicarkaninmiliel7777]

Happy Tolkien Reading Day! 💚

[@painlord2k]

Someone could say "Love is the Flame Imperishable" and evil cannot be loved, not by others, not by itself.

[@audreydimmel6674]

I LOVE THIS THEORY

[@thebrotherskrynn]

Happy Tolkien Reading Day Steven! Wow, once again your video is so moving as to almost move me to tears my friend. Dear heavens, this was beautiful. As to Mandos, always viewed him as a kind of middle-man of a sorts; he is judge yes, but the final say over the destiny of souls belongs to Eru Iluvatar and to an extent the individual themselves. Each soul has its own destiny, and its own decisions to make as a good or bad person, as a redemptive one or not. In the case of Beren, for him heaven lay with Luthien herself and nowhere else. Therefore he had to return, just as she could not find happiness elsewhere, and had to find him in Mandos to bring him back for a time before they leave together for where men's souls go when they have passed as all mortals do. Love how you comment that love was able to change destiny itself, a truly remarkable phrase and an ongoing theme in the professor's works.

[@TheRedBook]

Nicely put, thanks for the great comment :)

[@thebrotherskrynn]

@@TheRedBook Thanks, and you're most welcome I'm glad my comment earned your praise and approval as you are one of the finest Tolkien scholars imaginable X)

[@jamielandis4308]

Happy Tolkien Reading Day!

[@joseraulcapablanca8564]

A fine contribution. Bill and Sam, that was funny. I feel like Tolkien had experienced the transformative power of love, in many ways, with Edith, with his children on the battlefield. So that Beren and Luthien transcended their fates through love is appropriate. And for Tolkien, and for the consistency of the legendarily only Eru could grant this blessing to them. Your description of the meeting of the hobbits in the undying lands was moving. I noticed you never mentioned Bill the pony in the undying lands, that is of course only my own silly notion. Just one thing, isn’t every day Tolkien reading day. Thanks and keep up the good work.

[@demetrisgeorgiades3071]

Amazing video! thank you

[@LifeofHum]

This channel is my therapy before I go to bed ❤

[@DorkLords]

Happy Tolkien Reading Day! I love the video - and such a great topic for this this year’s theme.

[@christiansky942]

Another banger, man. Να είστε καλά, φίλε

[@TheRedBook]

Σας ευχαριστώ :D

[@KazgarothUsher]

I loved your contribution - and its theme. Makes a weary soul reflect on what love can truly mean in Arda. Thanks :)

[@TheRedBook]

Thank you for watching :D

[@prophetic0311]

Beautiful as always.

[@WhoIsCalli]

Great vid. Thanks Red Book 😄

[@bryanboobaby]

Beautiful

[@michaelneffii2010]

Amazing bro. Brought me to tears by the end.

[@deanog2577]

Excellent work here. It's great to listen to someone who hasn't sold out to amazon. Subbed.

[@TheRedBook]

Seems you subbed 3 months ago :D but thanks!

[@deanog2577]

@@TheRedBook yeah sorry. Noticed that after I wrote it. Well, if I could sub again I would. Just for your Tolkien Society take.

[@VoiceoftheRings]

Happy Tolkien Reading Day! Awesome video bro

[@baystated]

Got me choked up.

[@ironblue4593]

Great video to watch

[@cameronjones8641]

Fabulous channel!

[@TheRedBook]

Thank you, Cameron :)

[@aaronwright6340]

another great video thank u

[@TheRedBook]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@HowieChicago]

Great video

[@waltonsmith7210]

Love and friendship can overcome the natural order of things in Arda. Whoa. I think you blew my mind with that one. That makes a ton of sense. Is something like that the answer to what happened to Tuor, you think? That was my biggest question upon my recent reread of the Silmarillion: what the hell happened to Tuor? It seems conspicuous in light of how much of a big deal is made later on of men sailing west in order to be like the elves.

[@hecate235]

You didn't talk about (what I think is) one of the most interesting moments in Beren and Luthien's tale. That coming before Mandos, Luthien sang for him, a song of love, loss and friendship between Elves and Men. That Mandos was so moved he went to Manwe asking what he should do with these two lovers. That's why Manwe asked Eru, and so gave Luthien her choice. Luthien stopped both Morgoth and Mandos in their tracks, just with the power of her song. Maybe, she understood the Music of the Ainur more than any other of Eru's children.

[@TheSaneHatter]

Samwise and the Pony: still a better love story than "Twilight." But seriously, folks, there's some valuable insight here. Not only is the possible coincidence of Sam's departure from Middle-earth, and of Bilbo's passing, well-reasoned to the point where I should have guessed it myself, but an even better point is made regarding the period of "spiritual healing" that Men might have to undergo in the Halls of Mandos. That they might need time to be made whole again before at least facing judgment actually addresses one previously asked, important question: the possible fate of the Nazgul's spirits after Sauron fell.

[@shanenolan8252]

Cheets mate great subject

[@eamonreidy9534]

"Gimli son of Gloin, Child of Aule, Descendent of Durin the Deathless, Lord of the Glittering Caves, Member of the Fellowship of the Ring, Elf Friend, lockbearer, we welcome you to Valinor. In breaking with tradition, your presence signifies a final healing amongst the elvish and dwarvish folk. May your stay be blessed and may your heart be content"

[@tommydunn5302]

I'm not crying you're crying

[@kirandeepchakraborty7921]

No fear, No regrets. Part of the Journey, is the End.

[@cerberus6654]

So, if I get it right - the Maiar returned to Valinor, if they 'died' in Middle Earth? But then when Saruman was killed by Grima, it seemed that wind from the West blew his shade away. Meaning what? Gate closed? And where did Gollum go? He's kin to the Hobbits who are a kind of sub-species of Men. Did he sit in the Halls of Mandos?

[@rafaelgustavo7786]

Lúthien and Béren x Orpheus and Eurydice (Tolkien reversing who rescues whom from the Underworld). Lúthien becomes a divine Orpheus that makes terrible monsters sleep (Cerberus and Cacharoth) and Severe Gods cry (Hades/Mandos?!)

[@gustavorocha1967]

Hello Bro, i'm from Brazil and i like too much your videos, Nice job. Don't you think that Frodo is already death when Sam comes to valinor? Because in the silmarillion, the messenger of manwe to the numenorians say that the life becomes brief to the mortal race when they stay in the imortal lands

[@TheRedBook]

Hi Gustavo - I cover a part of your question in my latest video "Appendices - July 2022" look for the question in the timestamp related to Mortals of the 3rd Age. As for Frodo already being dead when Sam arrived in the West, it's certainly possible that this may have been the case but many people would like to imagine a final reunion, even brief, between these two figures and Tolkien may have agreed with that - otherwise the journey of Sam may have made him feel worse in the end and it doesn't have that hope that is throughout the tales.

[@jamief1263]

I’m not sure what happened to Beren, but did not Luthien also die of grief? If so, I always imagined that her grief moved Mandos (whom was always stern), to partition Manwe to ask Eru to make some sort of exception to the fate of Luthien and Beren. Their love and sorrow being so powerful, that it could even move Mandos. I also have no doubt that if there is some sort of purgatory in middle-earth, that Beren would have lingered as long as he could.

[@TheRedBook]

Beren suffered mortal wounds when he and Huan battled Carcharoth. And yes, Luthien did die through grief. She then sang a song in the Halls of Mandos that moved Mandos - so you aren't wrong there.

[@painlord2k]

I notice many Tolkien experts don't note the symmetries in Tolkien stories, often in little details. When Lutien renounces her elf/maia life to stay with Beren and become a human, it opens a "slot" in Aman for someone else to occupy. This one is Tuor, the only man to be counted as an elf and allowed to stay in Aman. BTW, Lutien bonded her destiny with Beren when she healed him from the mortal wound. This is the reason he can linger in the Halls of Mandos and Mandos can't send him out of Arda. I imagine Mandos be like "WTF I have no idea what to do with this mess. Manweeeee Help" Gimli is an exception not because he is friends with Legolas, he is an exception because Galadriel gave him "three hairs" and her hair is said to have the Light of the Two Trees. And we know the motivation of Gimli in naming his gift was pure and altruistic "as heirloom to remember the friendship between Elfs and Dwarves" and he was demanded to name it. Galadriel is the mirror of Feanor: Feanor made the most valuable things (Silmarils) and lost everything to hold them and recover them Galadriel looked forever to get the power and when it comes, she renounced it. Frodo, Bilbo and Sam go to the West but Saruman, Sauron and Durin's Bane don't. The little ones get the spot of the biggest ones. In the Fall of Gondolin there is an elf, living with dwarves, pretty bad and tragic (because of greedy love and jealousy) and it is the first mover in the Fall of Gondolin (not willingly). He appears, to me, the specular of Gimli. He was an elf that did not have the call for the West or his kin. I bet he would be sent with the dwarves after his death. What happens after the LotR is the descendants of Aragorn and Arwen are the descendants of the Three Houses of Elves and The Houses of Men and of the Maia.

[@keyboarddancers7751]

*Mirco Romanato* That's a really interesting point you make about Tuor "taking Beren's place" although I'm not sure it's as "balanced" as you might suggest in that Beren was only permitted to return to Middle Earth, not to remain in Aman. However I do like your "symmetrical speculations". I've never felt entirely convinced that Tuor deserved to be so uniquely gifted with the choice of immortality in Aman. He was valorous and pure in heart and deed but arguably no more so than one or two other notable mortal men of the First Age.

[@painlord2k]

@@keyboarddancers7751 Tuor takes the place of Melian in Aman, not Beren. He also was raised by only elves from a very young age after his mother wandered away and died; he was the agent of Ulmo, the First man to get to the Western Sea and when he does, he felt the same longing to sail west as described by Legolas. Not only that, he fell in love, reciprocated, by the daughter of the King of Gondolin (and The King was cool with the marriage and the child, not like Turgon). And he saved her during the fall from being kidnapped. In fact, the scene when Tuor save Idril is terrifying: Tuor is so enraged he breaks Maeglin arm with his bare hand and throw him down the walls. The point is: immortality and living in Aman is not the reward because he is worth of it; it is just the recognition he is actually more elf in his heart than he is a man and the elves in Gondolin (and elsewhere) treated him like one of them and he has mixed his own existence with them. On a different point, if there are Halls for the Dwarven Folk there must be Halls for the Ents and the Entswives. Because they are Yevanna's children. If someone wanted some original content for LotR, they could have made some strange adventure of a young Ent(wife) and a Dwarf in the Southrons Lands looking for Blue Wizards.

[@Grizabeebles]

I'm not a massive reader of Tolkien, but it sounds like the Halls of Mandos are kind of equivalent to purgatory crossed with a transport terminal. Despite its name being a portmaneau of "prison fortress", I imagine there would be quite a few souls who would choose to live there indefinitely rather than go back to the world or go on to some other afterlife - not just the elves that had offended the Valar and are doomed to wait there for all eternity. Imagining

[@TheRedBook]

You are right, many Elves do not leave the Halls of Mandos - it seems there's no pressure for them to actually leave if they don't want to or if they aren't ready.

[@Glorfindel_117]

I'm... Actually really impressed how you mention that you dont support or endorse the Tolkien Estate or the organizations surrounding it. That takes some amount of bravery to say, but also shows that you care. I honestly, have come to wonder if Tolkien would have liked what his family became, or what they turned into concerning the stewardship of his legacy. Say what you might about them, they really do seem to have become a part of The Machine.

[@TheRedBook]

I think some people think that as Tolkien fans they have to support any organisation with his name attached to them. I still have hope for the Estate, in some way, but I'm really disappointed in the Society.

[@fifi-trixibell1888]

❤️

[@Sari36YT]

Looks like I'm staying up a bit later, then.

[@ellerose9164]

What if all Men acutally had the choice to refuse to go on from Mandos but no one else than Beren decided that? What if the bliss that awaited Men with Eru was so great that only Beren's love for Luthien was strong enough to stay on Arda?

[@TheRedBook]

But Men don't have that choice. Only Elves.

[@robertdobbs4156]

Yeah I'm subscribed and didnt see this either. KZbin trickery

[@TheRedBook]

I noticed views were quite low across the board on reading day - except for the giant channels.

[@cuetoluis]

Still Working on your intro..?? great channel, awesome topics.. I think a better intro would work wonders for your channel..

[@TheRedBook]

Hadn't really thought about changing it again. Can't really think of what else to do with it since it's just a simple introduction.

[@Enerdhil]

This was a great deep dive into how Beren and Luthien could come back from death. It had to be the love they had for each other. This love was allowed to flourish because of the will of Eru Iluvatar. That is the only thing that makes sense because Eru clearly intervened and bent the rules of Arda to accommodate their love for a short few decades. I can't believe the Tolkien Estate would crack down on Tolkien KZbinrs and tell you guys you couldn't read stories out of the writings for Tolkien Reading Day. Shameful. Nothing the Society does surprises me anymore.🙄

[@Vito_Tuxedo]

For me, this video turned out to be profoundly disturbing...not necessarily in a bad way, but in a way that *_might_* signal the emergence of an existential...well, not so much a crisis, but a question-namely, does love really have the kind of transcendent power your interpretation implies that it has? I had better explain... See, for me, the disturbing part is whether the power of love imputed to Beren in your interpretation actually translates from the Legendarium (a fantasy) to the real world. There was a time in my life when I would have been inclined to believe that it does-that is, that somehow the universe is set up in such a way that "the rules" can be transcended by something as genuine as True Love. No, wait...it would have been more than an inclination; I would have embraced such a belief. But perhaps I've seen too many instances of scumbaggery, knavery, betrayal, predation, out-of-control ego, and utter stupidity (deliberate ignorance) to believe that love can conquer "the rules". Perhaps I've become a cynic-not so much about my fellow humanoids (although far too many of them have proven they are unworthy of trust), but even about the universe itself. The laws of physics are impersonal, and don't care about anyone's feelings. Can love transcend those? I think not...at least, not always, in my experience. I dunno...I recall reading or hearing somewhere that Tolkien eschewed any interpretation of his work as an allegory for the real world. If that's true, it pretty well yanks the rug out from underneath all the "meaning" that even I have inferred from his work. IOW, they're just stories. Period. You can see how very disturbing that thought is. I would rather not believe it. In fact, it cannot be true in at least one sense, and Tolkien himself would have to agree. It is said that the departure of the Elves from Middle Earth signals the end of magic in the world within the context of the Legendarium. Well, that parallel with the real world is undeniable. There is no magic-no powers that transcend the laws of nature, which are inviolable. That is an immutable fact. Yet, in a sense, there is still something like magic in the very existence of life itself. Thermodynamically, life is improbable. And we do not know how to create it, or perpetuate it. It is complex beyond our ability to quantify, predict, or reduce to finite algorithms. So, maybe there is some transcendent power after all. Who knows...perhaps love is as good a candidate as anything else. One thing is certain; we could sure use a whole lot more of it.

[@thorshammer7883]

Great video. Sure does show what the power Eru Illuvatar is and that he is the supreme authority in Tolkien's world similar to the Hebrew Bible God Yahuah Elohim is. I have heard of a similar concept in the Bible that is a different idea seperated away from the whole Catholic and majority assuming interpretation of the Bible of souls immediately get judge and go to Heaven and Hell which is kinda occult pagan belief if you go deep into the specifics. Instead it is something similar to the Halls of Mandos, where when we die our souls enter specific chambers underneath the Earth reserved to certain peoples. A chamber reserved for the righteous. A chamber reserved for those who were killed or murdered by other people and their blood cried out upon the Earth. And lastly a chamber reserved for the wicked and sinful. The chambers being guarded by certain Archangels of the Seven Archangels. Where the souls lay asleep and wait until the day of Judgement. And only Yahuah and Yahusha Elohim have the authority to raise the souls from those chambers if they so choose it. Even if JRR Tolkien was a catholic I will say some of his ideas were quite similar to that concept somewhat even if there are still some differences. There's also another chamber at the bottem which serves as a prison for the Watcher Fallen Angels in the and nephilim spirits from the book of Enoch and Jubilees who are imprisoned down there and wait until the day of Judgement for their sentence to be carried out. If you are wondering where this idea comes from I will say I got it from The God Culture channel here on KZbin in their "Where Do We Go When We Die?" series of videos.

[@drewp9819]

It's a pity that channels like this aren't given their due credit for promoting Tolkien. Tolkien himself wouldn't force anyone to take down a recorded reading. Oh well

[@Davlavi]

for the algorithm

[@shanenolan8252]

Or sam and rosie 13 children busy woman

[@TheRedBook]

Should add Rosie to my heroes of the Third Age series for her managing to do that :D

[@shanenolan8252]

@@TheRedBook agreed lol

[@janozcan3060]

Could u speak faster?

[@TheRedBook]

I could but I won't. If it bothers you there's a video playback speed option on all KZbin videos.