Is a belt drive better than a chain for gravel bikes?

[@nkantar]

I’m here for more videos about things outside your wheelhouse of fast gravel and racing! Love your work in general, too.

[@monguzzle]

Really pleased to see belt drive getting some love here - need for frame breaks aside, I wish it were on many more bikes. My Avanti Inc. 2 (an NZ brand) has been an awesome commuter with an 8-speed Alfine hub on it. Zero hassle. Zerode is another NZ brand who build beautiful MTBs that are Pinion/Gates focused. Looking forward to seeing the ride report!

[@Smaug1]

I'd rather deal with breaking the frame for a belt change every 8,000 miles than break chains to change them every 3,000. It's just two little bolts and it's clean!

[@monguzzle]

@ 💯

[@凸Bebo凸]

​@@Smaug1with drip on wax lube chains last forever now.

[@TimR123]

I’ve had a belt driven Alfine setup on a commuter for the last 8-9yrs. I can’t say enough good about it. Mine had a wheel issue and kept popping spokes, but I finally fixed that. Otherwise it just works day in day out. No hassles. No fuss. As one who’s thought about a custom Rohloff setup for years, I’ve been interested by the Pinion option as well and interested in how it really works for more enthusiast oriented off road riding.

[@Smaug1]

Rohloff is much more efficient than Pinion gearbox or Alfine IGH, but costs $1500 and weighs a ton. (15 lbs?) It doesn't make sense in most cases. It's within 1-2% of chain/derailleur efficiency.

[@BjornE46]

Such a cool bike. Looking forward to the long term review.

[@brianwaldrop3506]

Excellent video, Ben! Of course, we've heard lots about the Gates / Pinion setup from your fellow Boulder resident who shall remain unnamed, LOL. For a future video, I'd very much like to hear your thoughts on Canyon's Grizl ON ebike. I do nearly 100% of my ~4K per year on an Aeroad (and love it!), but staring 70 in the face, am getting interested in an ebike for when 100% of the energy just isn't there, for both road and light gravel / off-road forays. Love the channel, one of the very best. Cheers, Brian

[@berniekeene868]

Could you please share the YT channel of the other person with a Pinion. I would love to hear more about them from someone w lots of experience. Thank you.

[@jasonurroz570]

@@berniekeene868 Since we don't want to name him (for some reason), just look for videos of a guy that does lots of bike packing / touring on Priority 600x's ... or even on the Gemini. You'll find him.

[@TheRidewithBenDelaney]

Cheers, Brian. I should probably go watch some of Duzer's videos on this bike. He has a financial relationship with Priority, and I do not, for the record. Also for the record: I like the guy! He's been nothing but kind and generous to me in our few interactions over the years. Re the Grizl ON - check out this video of me racing Pete Stetina up a climb at the BWR Utah: velo.outsideonline.com/ebike/bwr-utah-recon-with-pete-stetina-on-an-e-gravel-bike/ And there's an article below with some thoughts on it. I haven't ridden e bikes a ton, but the short of it is, they are heavy and a lot of fun - until you run outta battery. Then they're just heavy. My friend Lennard Zinn could be worth speaking to: he's far more knowledgeable than I am, and as a gentleman of a certain age with a heart condition, it is all e all the time for LZ. Good luck!

[@TheRidewithBenDelaney]

Ryan van Duzer - www.youtube.com/@duzer

[@larryt.atcycleitalia5786]

I'm the same age and suggest you check out bikes with MAHLE's hub motor system. As long time cyclists both yours truly and my wife find 'em really nice as you have the feeling of your regular (but of course a bit heavier) bike when the assist level is at 0 but fear no hill too steep or ride too long. It's like riding with a guy like Delaney who'll give you a gentle push whenever you need one...at least I think he would?

[@bouldermountainuni]

I’ve been riding my priority 600 for a year now. I just changed the oil on the pinion gearbox for the first time a few weeks ago. It’s been awesome as a commuter bike, especially in the rainy season here in Santa Cruz. Only complaint is that the belt drive+pinion is less efficient than a chain and I notice it a little on hills. But really that just means I get a better workout so it’s actually a positive. Hope to see you next time I’m in Boulder, Ben!

[@TheRidewithBenDelaney]

Thanks for sharing your experience. And yeah, holler when you're out here.

[@stevenagy7152]

Very cool, it will be interesting to hear your impressions of riding this on your usual haunts in lieu of a standard chain drive.

[@fookie-fone]

I had a Spot Acme ten years ago with a similar Gates Belt Drive paired to a Shimano Alfine 11 internal hub. Probably the best commuter bike I’ve ever owned. Never worried about riding in snow and other poor conditions. It was a little more fiddly when I had to change the rear tire, but not as bad a many people make it out to be. The biggest drawbacks were: gear ratio, drivetrain power loss, and weight (especially the rear bias). It looks like the pinion drivetrain fixes a few of those issues. I did absolutely nothing to it over 15,000 miles except for tires and pads. I never even washed the thing until I sold it. A big perk was a super clean drivetrain that wouldn’t get my slacks dirty. It was also crazy silent….like ninja stealthy. 🥷 My commuting changed so I ended up selling it and using a Brompton as my commuter.

[@donwasinger6654]

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on these bikes. On paper, seems like a great option for bike packing and endurance rides for someone not as concerned about speed or weight.

[@ZOB4]

I think it's definitely the solution for something like a commuter bike or bike to just ride around town that you don't mind getting a little mucky. Like the first bike you showed us.

[@mohomoho1]

Had a Rohloff hub on my Jones 29er some 13 years ago. Worked great never a bad shift. The down side was the drag an internal hub created. I'm sure the Pinion has the same drag. I believe there is now a belt on the market that doesn't require a split in the frame to mount it, just a way to tension it.

[@2up4down]

Curious about your findings as I use my gravel bike for commuting most of the time. Less maintenance with the downside of a little extra weight could be an option for me.

[@TheRidewithBenDelaney]

Thank you! I will report back in a few weeks.

[@rosomak8244]

Go for a full chain cover and be done with it. It's cheap and gives you about all of the benefits.

[@Smaug1]

I have a Priority Apollo 11 gravel bike, the predecessor to that fancy Gemini you've got there. There is NO question that belt is superior to chain as a power transfer device. The REAL question is whether we're OK with the power that is lost in the transmission that must accompany a belt drive. A well-maintained chain is around 95% efficient. An IGH or Pinion 'box gives up another 4-10% power, depending on the gear. Whether it's "good" or not then, depends on one's goals. For racing, belt is bad, because of the lost efficiency of the accompanying gearbox. For commuting, it's good, because it's weatherproof and very low maintenance. (one still has to change oil an an IGH or Pinion gearbox) Better keep a spare belt on hand too, because you can't just drop in the LBS and buy one. After riding my Apollo 11 for over 1,000 miles, I rented a Trek Checkpoint for a day while on vacation. The Checkpoint felt SO much faster. I really could feel the ~8% "free" power I had gotten back. For multi-speed bikes with equal quality belt vs. chain, chain is nearly always cheaper and higher performing; it just takes more maintenance. I will also say that I disagree with Priority on how tight the belt should be. When I tighten it per instructions, it's so tight that it adds turning resistance to the wheel. Give it a shot. Tighten in per instructions and then give the rear wheel a spin. See how quickly it stops? Now loosen it up, while still keeping the brakes aligned and see how much easier it rotates. The idea is to keep pullies from jumping cogs on the belt, but in my experience, it doesn't need to be NEARLY as tight as they think to prevent that from happening. Even standing on the pedal. One other thing you should try to test is how well it shifts when it's REALLY cold; well below freezing. My Apollo 11 (with Alfine 11 IGH) doesn't shift worth a damn when it's below 25 °F. I'm overdue on its oil change, but this was my experience a decade ago with an Alfine 3 as well. (it had grease inside, instead of an oil bath) Pinion told me it shifts well WELL below freezing.

[@davidr2862]

Agreed on tension. I like the low end of the Pinion apps recommended. I think I’m in the mid 30s. Aboutcycling also pushes for lower belt tension because he thinks it more efficient. To fit my Gemini, I put it on the trainer and had power meter pedals. I ran the pedals through my head unit and trainer through Zwift for grins. I was consistently seeing 20-25 watt difference between the two at 200 watts.

[@metonyg44]

@TheRidewithBenDelaney Hey Ben, very excited to hear your opinion on the Gemini. I have been a long-time subscriber and enjoy your channel. I converted a Priority 600 to dropbar a few years ago to use as my daily commuter since the Gemini didn't exist back then. I just prefer dropbar bikes. Over the last few years, I have watched every video on KZbin that I can find about pinion bikes. I see a lot of reviews that leave more questions than answers. Some things that I think your viewers might enjoy seeing that other videos don't show are: 1. show how easy it is to take off the rear wheel and put it back on. I would say the 600 is even easier than a bike with a derailleur but I do not know how the Gemini is. 2. If you have a trainer, it would be awesome to show going through the gears while pedaling. Many people think you have to stop pedaling when you really don't have to. I guess you could do this while riding outside but I would think it is easier to record while inside. 3. If you have still have you power pedals (like the Garmin or SRMs from one of your videos a few years back) it would be interesting to hear your results and maybe compare it to another gravel bike with similar-sized tires. 4. A lot of people complain with the engagement in the gearbox, it has more "freeplay" before it engages than regular cranks. I could see during aggressive riding on trails some could take issue with that, but for the road, I really don't see a big issue with it. 5. The sound of the belt while pedaling. Some say it is super quiet. It is but I hot wax my chains and I think my chain is quieter most of the time. Probably hard to capture that on video but maybe just give your thoughts. I guess that is it. I did a 50 mile test and found I was 2-3 mph slower on my 600 than the same 50 miles on my gravel bike. But the bikes have different-width tires, the 600 has a dynamo, and weighs about 10 pounds more. I was surprised it was only 2-3 mph. Looking forward to your review!

[@TheRidewithBenDelaney]

All super helpful stuff there. Thanks for laying it out. I'll try my best to hit those points. And yes, I do have power pedals; Assioma is my current fave by a longshot. Cheers.

[@davidr2862]

We have two Priority Gemini’s each with about 2k miles. We love them, but they are not maintenance free. Check your headset. Both came out of the box bone dry. The wheels are also disposable. Per my LBS they are not serviceable. One of the bikes front hubs went after 1k miles. I had a set of Oynx single speed wheels made and love them. Lastly, I’ve found that I need to check/re-torque the pinion cranks every 300-400 miles. All of that said, I love my Gemini and would buy it again. It’s okay as a Gravel bike but an excellent training bike.

[@TheRidewithBenDelaney]

Thanks for sharing! The wheels on my commuter are not perfectly true anymore, and the BB makes noise. But like I said, I only do work on the bike when something literally falls off. 😂 It is fully abused - the way I believe most city bikes are treated.

[@williamforbes7156]

cool bike, i like the future proof idea of ti bike and long lasting gear box.

[@hardmtnbiker]

I’m intrigued with the Gates belt drive and think the Pinion combo is pretty smart for a solid touring or bike packing rig. Imagine combining with Classified hubs for an additional range. Personally I was thinking of doing a parts bin build just with the Gates and use some of my SS specific hubs to build up a beach cruiser, just for kicks and fun on my So Cal beach path. Of course finding a frame that has the ability to run a belt is the most expensive part not in my bin.

[@monguzzle]

Surly may have something to fill that gap! They def have one frame that’ll do just about any drive train imaginable, but I can’t remember which one off the top of my head.

[@chrisbenten9971]

Very cool. I have wondered about these bikes.

[@davidr2862]

5:54 I find you can pull the rear wheel as fast on the Gemini as any thru-axle.

[@TheRidewithBenDelaney]

Cool, thanks. With the NuVinci hub it takes some doing to get it out and back in. I'm sure like anything it would get faster with practice; I've only done it a handful of times over the years.

[@tmayberry7559]

@@TheRidewithBenDelaney Big Ben you say a handful of times 🤔 Were you using one hand or two hands in this handful of times 😊😂😂🤣

[@TheRidewithBenDelaney]

@@tmayberry7559 I could have used a third hand for sure to hold the bike. I'll call you next time!

[@tmayberry7559]

@@TheRidewithBenDelaney love it 😁😁💪

[@kevinnorris1691]

Great start on the Gemini. Very interested to see how the hub shifts while pedaling. Also how well the Pinion app communicates with the GB and shifters.

[@lazlo2511]

Great job on braving the elements…,Lookokg forward to your review on this somewhat interesting topic, couid we head into a chain less biking world?…stay warm Beanie Ben.

[@kenh.3857]

I have a priority 600x, mechanical Pinion system and I really enjoy it. I have heard that the upgrade to the electronic version took are of almost all of the shifting issues with the mechanical system. Mechanical, you had to pause during shifting under load (down shift only), where I have heard that the electronic, not so much. I love the little/to no maintenance... it needs, oil change about every 1000 miles or so? (40cc's I believe). Anyway, this system is very popular on bikes in Europe and not so much here. Pinion was founded by transmission engineers from Porsche. (I am pretty sure). Hopefully it rides nice for you.

[@bchurch3616]

The original gates belt on my tandem has 11,455 miles and counting. About once a year I’ll spray with silicone for the heck of it.

[@Colleenann61]

I have a 600X for bikepacking. I looked at the Gemini when they first came out. I wish it had a bit more tire clearance for the pnw gravel we have here in Washington.

[@BenZCardiff]

For the average rider a gates carbon belt drive bike with appropriate gearing is the best setup. Change my mind.

[@DR_1_1]

30% more expensive, 10% lower efficiency, 15% heavier... I wanted one badly, but reason told me "mechanical shifter". TBH, if I was a bit stronger and wealthier, or for commuting only, I would have tried belt & hub, though.

[@BenZCardiff]

would an average gate’s belt setup be less expensive in the long run when you factor in chains, cassettes, chainrings, etc? Agreed on the low speed increased resistance. That’s certainly not ideal but what doesn’t kill you??…

[@DR_1_1]

@ ​From what I'm reading, on average a Shimano hub will last as long as 2 cassettes and 4 chains (15,000 km... at this point many people will just buy a new bike I guess!) So I'm not sure there is any gain here - except for lower maintenance? Otoh some people don't want to become bike experts, won't do basic maintenance, and that would quickly add up if you need a mechanic to replace the chain, cassette, etc. For them belt & hub make a lot of sense, same for daily commuting. For those who really ride A LOT a Rohloff might end up being the cheapest alternative, if they could last 150,000 km as some pretend?

[@larryt.atcycleitalia5786]

@@DR_1_1 "10% lower efficiency" makes me wonder who would give that up in a world where people argue about how many watts are "saved" by this or that chain lube. Shopping bike? Sure! Sporty bike? Not so sure.

[@DR_1_1]

@@larryt.atcycleitalia5786 True... but not only for the Strava/power meter/bike computer type of cyclists, but also for the slow/weak amateur like me, just moving forward is sometimes difficult in case of strong winds, or climbs, so adding another 10-20 W as well as 1-2 kg is not reassuring - even though in this case you might get lower gears and ride the same roads.

[@davidr2862]

8:21 I charge the gearbox when I charge my head unit. I don’t think I’ve seen it below 80%.

[@tabottietjen3186]

I thought these weren't shipping until June. I would love to hear your thoughts on titanium & the electronic shifting in a few months. Cheers!

[@KoenMiseur]

My next commuter will also have a belt drive, my workplace doesn't have a indoorbikeparking so it needs to stand outside in the rain, snow and sometimes (Belgium) sun. I already had internal gearing but the chain is indeed the weakspot now.

[@5irefly]

Most N+1’ers who ride in all weather (Colorado or Ontario, Canada or elsewhere) probably have room for a winter/epic mud/all-weather rig that doesn’t take a big beating in foul weather. Curious to know how your testing goes.

[@Porkfu]

What's it like maintaining the bottom bracket bearings (assuming it still uses a traditional spindle)? Is it as easy as replacing T47/BSA threaded cups? Some oil maybe? Would you do 2025 SBTGRVL and Unbound on this bike? tyty :)

[@asonetuh6094]

Would be a good bike to use for the Old Man Winter race that's coming up - especially if it's as muddy as last year. Chains and gears lose a ton of efficiency once they get muddy.

[@davidr2862]

The Pinion is something like 90% efficient. My Gemini is also approximately 30lb with pedals and saddlebag. I don’t think it’s ever faster than a geared bike.

[@TheRidewithBenDelaney]

The 'this would make a fun story/video' part of me really likes the Old Man Winter idea. I've thought about it! But the 'I really don't wanna lug a 26lb bike up a snowpacked Rowena with a super weak arm' part of me is probably going to win out...

[@petecollis4980]

Gates are great for commuting, but i would be cautious of using one in muddy conditions. As the dirt can become trapped in the “V” profile of the belt, this can then cause rapid wear.

[@stevekelly6544]

I want a belt drive for a winter/wet weather riding.

[@dvoob]

I hope you're as critical as possible about the shifting feel on the pinion, I've seen some reviews of it in a mtb setting, but in general speeds are lower and pedaling is more sporadic. I know they've improved the feeling with the new electronic system, but I haven't seen anyone talk about how it shifts in a setting where you're putting down constant power. The idea of having to stop my pedal stroke entirely to shift during a gravel race is a huge turnoff.

[@davidr2862]

I have a 600adx and Gemini. For me, the electric shifting is a giant leap forward. Most shifts occur in the power transition between legs. If you really push through the bottom of the stroke the Gemini will try to shift for 3-4 seconds. Half of the time it successfully shifts on the next stroke. If it times out then it makes a noise that it failed. I just cut the follow through of the stroke but it is not a full loss of power. I find that I’m about as thoughtful about shifting as if I were on a geared bike. I do shift sooner in climbs knowing that it could take a second or two to shift

[@PriorityBicyclesNYC]

@@davidr2862 You've nailed it here on timing. Shifting a hair before you would on a cassette setup is the right flow!

[@SergioCristancho]

I always wonder that as ultra distance loco guy on a bike... does it worth? what to expect...? who will it feels? about the top speed and average speed... how does relate ... many questions... because if and what if... always cross my mind but here in Colombia there is few bike shops and places willing to put me on a belt drive and getting one 'to race' 'to test' well is not happening ... soon I guess

[@mo-215]

Is there any way to use a belt on a regular bike frame?

[@rolffuchs2737]

I never thought you'll have a trecking bike.

[@rolffuchs2737]

Trekking bike of course

[@jorgepietersz]

Im really interested in the in the pinion gearbox but don't know how it would feel like pedaling wise, I usually run a 46 or 48 front chainring with an 10 cog in the back, would you says it is comparable to that on the faster end or does it feel like a smaller chainring?

[@davidr2862]

The gearbox has 600% gear range which is I believe about a 120% more than your standard 2x. You can also order different front and rear cogs to fine tune the range. The Gemini is geared like a gravel bike so it doesn’t have the highest top end. I have a second cog which cost about $90

[@jorgepietersz]

@@davidr2862 Thank you for this! I knew it had more gear range which also got me interested, but its good to know you can switch the cogs to fine tune. But to be sure its for me i guess ill have to find a demo bike to try it out

[@stewart4711]

Froozen wheels good.

[@finder2267]

You should get in contact with Ryan Duzer. That may make an interesting video with contrasting applications.

[@Aviationislifef35]

Yeah, weird no Van Duzer reference. He is in Boulder and surely Ben knows of him.

[@GummeeH3]

once you figure out how to get the cable back on, it's not the hardest thing to reinstall. It is fiddly, but not technically difficult

[@Avioto]

I always hear the argument that chains are a lot more efficient than belt drive, but never seen any proof. Any truth to that?

[@userdjee834]

Yes, but that actually means a drive with a cassette and a derailleur is more efficient vs an IGH integrated gear hub, not chain vs belt

[@larryt.atcycleitalia5786]

Roller chains in decent condition are supposed be 98% efficient, more than any other drive system - belts, gears, etc.

[@jasonwright6823]

Rust? Patina 🙂

[@tmayberry7559]

Why are bike chains used instead of belt drive 🤔 For me it's obvious. Continuous income for the bike industry. Besides, with a pinion gear box its infinite choices in gearing

[@larryt.atcycleitalia5786]

Yep, that's it. The billions of profit raked-in by the "Big Chain" cabal. Now we know.

[@larryt.atcycleitalia5786]

A roller chain in decent condition is considered 98% efficient. In a world where power-meters are measuring every watt cranked-out by the rider on his sporty bike (not his grocery-getter) how much LESS efficiency is too much? What is the efficiency claim of the belt drive and the internal gear system?

[@davidr2862]

I saw about 90% when I tested it fitting the bike on a trainer which roughly lined up to the published articles.

[@DR_1_1]

I heard 5-10% loss depending on the hub and/or belt. Even SRAM Red AXS is 2% (?) less efficient than a 2 x Shimano, but most pros switch to it for other reasons...

[@larryt.atcycleitalia5786]

@@davidr2862 90 % vs 98% is a serious difference in a world where people argue about chain lubes saving watts! For a bicycle used every day for transportation/shopping it would make sense but I can't see racers or performance-oriented cyclists getting too excited about this.

[@davidr2862]

To fit my Gemini I put it on the trainer and had power meter pedals. I ran the trainer through Zwift and the pedals through my head unit. I consistently saw about 20-25 watts difference from the pedals when at 200 watts. The Gemini to me is the perfect training bike. I put most of my miles and workouts on it. I wash it once a week and check bolts every two weeks or so. Even on group rides I tend to take the Gemini when it’s slower and I want a bit more of a workout. As a gravel bike it’s okay, but I don’t think that’s wear it shines. Since it’s about 30lb with pedals and saddlebag, bunny hopping a rock is like lugging a full suspension bike.

[@metonyg44]

@@davidr2862 Thanks for your comments through this thread. Do you mean that you estimate the friction in the gearbox is about 20-25 watts? As in, it takes 225 watts on the Gemini to go the same speed on the trainer that your other bike does at 200 watts. I have three bikes: a drop bar pinion bike (converted the Priority 600 to drop bar a few years ago), a gravel bike with Rival 1, and a road bike with Shimano Ultegra. I have been wanting to test the watts difference in like conditions but I don't have the pedal power meters. Putting the bike on a trainer sounds like the perfect platform to test the difference. What tension do you set the belt at? I have been testing as low as 25lbs up to 45lbs or so but can only go by feel since, again no power meter. I would think weight is even less of a factor on the trainer, so the results would be more indicative of the pinion.

[@aintnobodygottime4dat]

I really like the look of the whole Pivot system (especially belt driven)....The electronic shifters, not-so-much!....I wonder if any think-tank has surveyed Cyclists to see what may be the ratio of 100% pure mechanical cyclists VS those who are OK with electronic shifters, drivetrains etc?..........Everyone I know thinks the whole electronic thing on bicycles is kinda Yuk!

[@asonetuh6094]

well, KZbin reviewers favor electronic shifting with Pinion. with the cable-pull you have to stop putting out power to allow shifting, whereas with the electric shifting it smartly shifts when the cranks are at the 12o'clock position (i.e. low torque input). so the shifting is crisper. also it allows for better shifter choices. there simply weren't any good road shifter options that were compatible with the dual-cable Pinion cable-pull. but I agree, especially for bike-packing adventures, I'd prefer a nuke-proof cable-pull option. I mean, it is the ultimate doomsday transmission after all. the battery just ruins that.

[@davidr2862]

The shifting is fantastic. I have both a 600adx and Gemini. The Gemini shifts under load much more seamlessly. The battery also lasts for about a month.

[@DR_1_1]

The vast majority are switching to electronic, not only for Pinion. Commuting is largely e-bikes now, and "performance" bikers are all buying electronics. I don't like the idea of electronics and batteries on a mechanical bike... but you have to admit that electronic makes things easier without the need of adjusting cables and indexing, it can also select the correct chainring/cog combination when shifting up or down on 2 x drivetrains, allow to change gear with a click on a button, i.e. your hands in a different position, etc.