Ground Planes for Ham Radio Beginners

[@cbarker1496]

Love that deadpan introduction. I laughed out loud ... when you mentioned ... "conversations about prostate health ..."

[@TheSmokinApe]

lol

[@scottbrader-kd9vyy225]

Thanks, Ape!!!! This was informative and timely. I recently retired and we are moving into a new home in Northeast Florida next week and I am looking at installing a vertical antenna. This was great!

[@TheSmokinApe]

Thanks Scott, glad it was helpful 👍

[@williammyers-ka8gim978]

Thank you for the great explanation

[@TheSmokinApe]

Thanks for watching William 👍

[@dougdaniels]

Excellent intro. Somewhat reminiscent of another youtube superstar.

[@TheSmokinApe]

Thanks for watching Doug 👍

[@randallschad5025]

Dude, I generally love your content, but this one was exceptional. Keep up the fantastic work!

[@TheSmokinApe]

Thanks man, glad you like the videos 👍

[@mewrongwayKOCXF]

The Intro was very funny for such a serious guy lol!! Thanks Ape! 👍👍👍

[@TheSmokinApe]

lol, thanks for watching MWW 👍

[@cbarker1496]

This video in very timely for me ... as I'm crafting a new VHF antenna mount for roof crossbars on Toyota 4Runner. I've learned a bit. Thank you for your work !

[@TheSmokinApe]

Glad it was helpful cbarker, thanks for watching 👍

[@janiceemery2008]

Perfect love the video Ape and the detailed explanation. You explained that concept very clearly. Thank You

[@TheSmokinApe]

Thanks for watching Janice, glad you liked it 👍

[@bryantwalley]

Completely random thought when you showed the word antennas from the book. I think I’m going to start saying antenni for more than one antenna. Seems like that could be fun.

[@TheSmokinApe]

Hey Bryant, I like that idea!

[@bassangler73]

Your introduction in the video cracked me up..lol...good info though, I wish I would have found your channel when I first started. I still pick up something from each video regardless if it's beginner level or advanced!

[@TheSmokinApe]

Glad they are helpful BA, I appreciate you watching them 🍻

[@HOAHamRadio]

Had me cracking up with the intro, then hit me with the facts! Great video!

[@TheSmokinApe]

As always, thanks for watching my friend 🍻

[@Philip-KA4KOE]

I went to an elevated, resonant radial. Works very well. I hold up the far end with an electric fence post. I'll add one more to take care of dead spots in the pattern.

[@TheSmokinApe]

Yeah, elevated "works" better.

[@Viktorherenowhere]

More radials more gain, is correct only for GP lays on the ground. For elevated verticals, 2 radials is enough.

[@TheSmokinApe]

Correct

[@K4WYZ]

What size wire is best to use, and does one connection point better over another, such as connecting directly to the ground spike/stake vs clamping to the mount or coax PL 259 connector?

[@Viktorherenowhere]

@@K4WYZ not clear what you mean. If talk about wire size, so thicker is better bandwidth, but also more expensive, so choose one is suitable for you. Counterpoises better to not make grounded, in case of GP is elevated above ground. 2 symmetrical pieces is enough for minimum. And connect to ground clamps of commutation box.

[@K4WYZ]

@@Viktorherenowhere thanks for the reply, I am a pretty new ham so bear with me a bit not always sure how to ask the question the correct way. Lol. Let me start with my setup my antenna is a JPC 12 vertical currently using the counterpoise that came with it, the wire looks to be about 16AWG I was wondering would I get better performance from my counterpoise using 14AWG vs 16AWG or 12AWG vs 14AWG so on and so forth. As far as connection point, for instance right now I clamp my counterpoise directly to the ground spike, I have also used it clamped to the pl 259 right where it is threaded to the feed point of the antenna?

[@Viktorherenowhere]

@@K4WYZ now is clear. You have a very good portable universal antenna for hf. Please note, at 40m band, this antenna is not effective. It works best from 14Mhz and upper. Every installation needs to be done with an antenna analyzer, for example Nanovna. Counterpoise wire, awg14 or awg16, no huge difference in performance, only physical durability. Better to use copper wire. If you setup on the ground, you can add more counterpoises to boost performance. If you setup above ground, 2m+ you need at least 2 counterpoises, in symmetrical position, 120degree between pole and counterpoises will give you better swr.

[@AnthonyEarl]

I’ll echo the positive comments about the fun intro & thank you for the clear explanations

[@TheSmokinApe]

Thanks Anthony 👍

[@tomstrum6259]

Good Helpful info ! .....Frequently, Direct 52 ohm coax Feed results in Higher Swr than desired when you Use straight Level (90°Angle) ground plane Radials.... Highish Swr can be Tuned out by Using a slightly Shorter vertical Radiator & Tuning an appropriate sized "Hairpin" Beta match across Antenna terminals...I know it Looks like a Short circuit but can Work miracles in tuning a Better Swr.....

[@TheSmokinApe]

Didn't know that, thank you for the info Tom 👍

[@KC7ZXYtube]

Excellent work. Thank you for continuing to perpetrate truthiness! Great explanation. Take care. 73

[@TheSmokinApe]

Glad you like the videos, thanks for watching 👍

[@g0fvt]

Well explained, broadcasters frequently use a "ground screen" a more profound description than it first appears 73

[@TheSmokinApe]

Hey g0fvt, thanks for watching 👍

[@alexkram]

How many wavelengths in length should the radials be? The longer the better or is there some ideal length?

[@TheSmokinApe]

This might help: Ape Answers 007: Ground Plane Radials kzbin.info/www/bejne/hJLYYoeDjsiIhMk

[@wouterbrinkman7817]

A perfect explanation of the GP antenna. confirms my experiments with various vertical antennas. If you think I have enough ground, just add 4 more. Nice video and a good explanation. 73 pd0osg

[@TheSmokinApe]

THanks man, glad you liked it 👍

[@timdbl7804]

If your antenna insists on using wires laid on the ground, i suggest that you use a lot of them, otherwise you might waste a lot of tx power just giving the worms free central-heating ! A few elevated radials might often be much less lossy than a few wires laid on the ground.

[@dan_in_sd]

great stuff Ape. I like to think of the ground-plane as a mirror. This 'mirror' is essentially creating the other half of the antenna as an "image" in the mirror. Not sure if thats accurate but its similar to what is said in the first paragraph in ARRL handbook. (Ah, you mentioned this same idea later in video. duh)

[@TheSmokinApe]

Hey Dan, I tend to agree. Thanks for watching bro 🍻

[@thomashardy9994]

I’ve seen a few videos about wire mesh and faraday fabric being used as a ground plane. I think I’ll get a very large one (maybe two) in order to cover 40m. Hopefully some clear days soon.

[@TheSmokinApe]

What concerned about those solutions is that it probably handles the capacitive coupling to ground and counterpoise functions just fine BUT I’m concerned about ground loss 🤨

[@hooterfivesix]

Hilarious and informative. Good job, SmokingApe!

[@TheSmokinApe]

Thanks Hooter!

[@LeeMcc_KI5YPR]

Adding radials to MMANA-GAL, how long are the radials? Are they the same length? Or does the total length equal some fraction of the wavelength being transmitted?

[@TheSmokinApe]

The MMANA-GAL manual is radio silent on the definition of the radials are, I am assuming it’s a 1/4 wave of the specified design frequency 🤔

[@LeeMcc_KI5YPR]

@@TheSmokinApe I made you read the manual! 🤣🤣🤣

[@TheSmokinApe]

lol

[@brandonporter4227]

I just got my first vertical a couple weeks ago and final got it out to play with it this past weekend. I'm having difficulty understanding what is going on with the radials. I've always heard "more is better" and even Lord Callum has said for best performance you should have 2-4 wavelengths worth of radials on the ground for the lowest band. So I cut 16 radials, bundled in sets of four, at 1/4 wavelength for 20 meters to give me 4 full wavelengths. I may work some 40m, but not often. When tuning any band, 10-40, I find that I actually have to reduce the number of radials or bunch them together and even fold them back on themselves to get an SWR below 2:1. In some instances, I had only one bundle of four radials, bunched together and folded back on themselves twice. So only about one meter long. It gave me a beautiful SWR and low impedence, but I would imagine my gain is then suffering. So the question is, am I better served putting out the full set of radials to get a better gain and using the tuner on my radio for the SWR or am I better served reducing the SWR as low as possible and getting a good impedence match by adjusting radials and putting out full power through the antenna?

[@bpsengineer_AC7PB]

In the Seattle area POTA parks I work, I have found the soil to be poorly conducting. I found I have to tune the radials to 1/4 wavelength even though they are lying on the ground. For example, if I place 33ft radials with the whip set for 20m, minimum SWR is >2. If I walk half way out from the center and coil up the tips, then SWR drops to a usable value. I always use an analyzer and it sometimes requires a couple iterations of adjusting the whip and adjusting the radial lengths. (I envy those people who work sites that allow use of any length radial). My method works great here and I can reach the entire east coast from Seattle. de AC7PB

[@TheSmokinApe]

Sorry I missed this Brandon. I would probably go with the option that gives you better SWR, it sounds like you would be trading loss in the antenna system for ground losses.

[@TheHamNinja]

I have a question for you.... I have a cushcraft R8 vertical in the back yard. It sits on a ground mounted pole starting about 5' high. It's near the fence but no reason why I couldn't add a few wires on the ground.... Would adding some on the ground help, given the antenna has some ground plane wires on it (I think 5)? The 7 built-in ground plane wires are 4' long, 5' off the ground.

[@TheSmokinApe]

Hey Ninja. I think so, it should help prevent some of the ground loss you might be experiencing 👍

[@williamlucid8907]

Any information about using "Faraday Cloth" as a ground plane?

[@TheSmokinApe]

Hey William, unfortunately I haven’t messed with the cloth yet 🤨

[@timdietz350]

So I'm in an urban area and have no real yard but I do have about 40'x40' of flat roof about 40' up that I own and can play with. I'd like to build a vertical up there. All talk of radials I've heard talks about them being placed on the ground. Would placing radials on the roof basically how they would be on the ground accomplish the same basic thing? Would it be less efficient? Is there a better way to deploy radials for an HF vertical antenna 40' up on top of a flat roof? What kind of supplements should I consider for my prostate health?

[@TheSmokinApe]

Hey Tim, can't help with the supplements BUT I'd mount them flat on the roof and see how you get along.

[@spaceflight1019]

A few thoughts here... The operating procedure lampooned by our host is quite common on the 10, 12, 15, 17, and 20 meter bands, especially when working DX. I'll stick with 10, since it's my favorite band. Aside from being heavily dependent on the solar flux, 10 meters is also seasonal. It opened up in September and closed in March. The best time for me has been between 9 am ET and noon. Contacts with DX stations are prized by those seeking to pad their total countries worked, and "rag chewing" with the DX is considered bad form. Besides, for many of them their total command of the English language is limited to "59, 73". That's just how it goes. I don't run a 7300 into a Hex Beam. I run a Siltronix 1011D that was given to me because it was broken and an original Penetrator that was on Craigslist for $60. It's mounted on a 25' steel pipe that is partially buried in the ground. I've had three antennas on the pipe: an original Starduster, a Super Magnum, and the Penetrator. The difference between the three has been interesting to say the least. When my tower came down and took the Penetrator (also a roof rescue) I put the Starduster up. I could no longer hear trucks on the turnpike or several locals. DX, which is skywave, didn't seem to be as good either, but a lot of variables come into play here. Five years later, I replaced the center-fed dipole/ground plane with the end-fed halfwave Super Magnum. The turnpike signals returned as did the locals. DX seemed better and cracking the pileups became easier. I put the Penetrator up last August. Local signals increased by an average of two S-units. DX seems to be about the same as the Super Magnum, with both antennas appearing to have a maximum range of roughly 8000 miles during this phase of the current solar cycle. If there's a "rule of thumb" here it's that you should experiment and find out what works best for you. When I got on ham radio in 1980 my first antenna was a Cushcraft AV5, a ground mounted vertical. It worked just fine without any radials. I'm also using an Alpha Delta DX-B sloper. Despite ignoring the instructions that emphasize that the antenna needs a triband beam above it (the high end is attached to a stink pipe on my house) it works just fine.

[@TheSmokinApe]

Thanks for sharing your experiences SpaceFlight 👍

[@spaceflight1019]

@@TheSmokinApe You're quite welcome. As an aside, I was able to work VK2BY in Sydney about an hour after my sunset here in Pittsburgh. First time this season that I've been able to get to 10,000 miles, with the Penetrator and a TS-430. Forget six meters; 10 meters is where the *real* magic happens!

[@TheSmokinApe]

That is quite a contact 👀

[@spaceflight1019]

@@TheSmokinApe It was a complete surprise.

[@TheSmokinApe]

@@spaceflight1019 I bet

[@robertmeyer4744]

That was great. nice chart on what happens to the pattern. when you use coax as counter poise . the round ness of the loads gets out of shape in the direction of the coax. the same thing happens with very off set ground elements . this may not be a bad thing. knowing this we can steer the lobe to wear we want the signal going to. at higher frequency's this changes . like 70 Cm. you can put a UHF antenna on a cookie sheet and will be enough ground plain to work. we need about 1/4 wave length for them to work. so on 40 meters using coax for counter poise. that getting long. and if too short you will get common mode current into the radio. that why we choke the coax. Randy is a fan of this channel. watch his video on SWR. from his point he is right. but us HAMS that want to get out better and get better lienee this info is on the test. nice that both sides can be right. it depends on what you want radio to do for you ? . I want to talk DX from NY to the UK so the ground plain is important to me. and Off come is their FCC to us. they changed to 1 Kw now. Lord Callum really gets to the US now . I work the UK a bunch in the am. now they giving their call to me /QRP for 100 watts. when many stations did this was funny. UK stations. 73's

[@TheSmokinApe]

That's pretty good info, thanks!

[@TheNotaRubicon]

I think I just got an idea for my next video.

[@TheSmokinApe]

I figured that might happen

[@tmccusk1]

Awesome. How long are the radials that you used in the model?

[@TheSmokinApe]

MMANA-GAL doesn't specify, only the count. I am going to assume they are a 1/4 wave for the specified frequency 👍

[@ricdonato4328]

As you explained it, yes it now all this makes sense. This is my question, what is the formula for a ground plane size? One I have read is 71.3232 divided by the frequency. Thus, using my HT in my office I should have a ground plane (the ole Pizza Pan trick) for the frequency of 145 MHz, the size of 19.29 inches, hum good size pizza. Using that formula for 400 MHZ a 6.7" ground plane is required. Hum, maybe my understanding is completely wacko.

[@axi6ne8us]

Can you "ground" a verticle antenna indoors?

[@TheSmokinApe]

I’m not 100% on that

[@hamradiowithkevin]

This is good stuff Ape. 😂 nice work

[@TheSmokinApe]

Hey Kevin! Thanks for watching bro 👍

[@KU9L]

The challenges faced by us full-time RVers who are also POTA activators are that we are often faced with erecting a worst case vertical setup due to restrictions at the WMA & other managed govt properties. It is hard to exactly list every restriction to be anticipated, but a lot of times I end up either with my Grabel vert on a tripod or one of my Ham sticks on my 5" msg mount. Once in a great while the 35' coax gives an acceptable match for my radio, but rarely I get to string my radials for as soon afterward a busl oad of nuns shows up to trip over them with their canes. Folks get tired of me preaching about using my Faraday cloth as a ground plane, but to avoid much of the trip hazards it has allowed me to get my 10 contacts to activate so I can be on my way. Just like anything else, when the bands are good a wet noodle can make many contacts, I am told, lol. I tell the angry sad hams that it is my job to try all the combinations that don't work first, then someday figure out how to do it right in ten minutes or less, lol. When in Colorado for the summer I have to work twice as hard for every contact than when in FL for the winter, another influence on my choices of effort. Generally though, I notice that Field Day gets about the same shortcuts. Thanks for your great videos,. Cheers, Davey --KU9L

[@TheSmokinApe]

Hey Davey, thanks for the comment and for watching 👍. One of these days I will need to try that cloth.

[@KU9L]

@@TheSmokinApe I don't expect it to be as efficient as a bunch of cool radials, but KB9VBR has some WSPR data on comparing contacts with one and two aluminum window screens. For POTA there are just minor differences, etc. I have been asked to do a real study but I am not that organized, LOL.

[@TheSmokinApe]

@@KU9L lol, Michael is awesome 👍

[@jimmyhiggins4]

So how does a ground plane work while using a mobile NMO antenna mount?

[@justawfulgamer7738]

Is it worth building an antenna like this for 10m? Or would i be better off building a vertical and putting it higher

[@TheSmokinApe]

I prefer the ground mounted as an elevated vertical requires tuned radials 👍

[@RJHElias]

Can you please make a video over vertical hf antennas? At this moment I use a endfed for 10-40 meter but am not happy with it. I have a very small backyard so need a small antenna for hf I saw a few vertical antennas such as Sigma SE HF-360 and asked myselve if that was a good choice. Thanks in advance, Ron from the Netherlands

[@TheSmokinApe]

Hey Ron, I think I have a few but I forget... lol. I will do some more vertical stuff 👍

[@Bdub1952]

Hi Ron, interjecting here. I have a similar issue and constructed a Rybakov vertical: 7.7 meter 14ga copper wire vertical element, through a 4:1 unun with six 5m radials, 30m feed line, choked at feed point. Works very well. Several construction videos here on YT, Tim G5TM explains it best. Cheers and 73. Bruce in Idaho

[@RJHElias]

Thank you so much 😃

[@TheSmokinApe]

I am actually getting ready to do a Rybakov like antenna build in the next day or so...

[@Bdub1952]

@@TheSmokinApe cool, looking forward to your build..

[@jackhammell1926]

Is a ground plane beneficial for both transmission and reception?

[@TheSmokinApe]

It is, the gain is bi-direstional 👍

[@spaceflight1019]

All depends on the "take-off angle".

[@bob_mosavo]

Thanks, Ape 👍

[@TheSmokinApe]

Thanks for watching Bob 👍

[@corrigan88101]

How can I calculate the length of the ground plane wires?

[@TheSmokinApe]

Radials are pretty forgiving, typically you would want them 1/4 wave of the lowest frequency you are operating on 👍

[@goin200mph]

Prostate health 🤣🤣🤣 Thanks, bro… I needed a good laugh

[@TheSmokinApe]

haha

[@ornithopterindia]

👍Thank you sir.

[@TheSmokinApe]

Thanks for watching 👍🍻

[@thehappyhogger4484]

Should I ground my end-feds?

[@TheSmokinApe]

I would ground them where they feed into your shack

[@temporarilyoffline]

Schooled!

[@TheSmokinApe]

Something like that...

[@slappomatthew]

What surprised me on the chart was how 16-32 was a notable increase over 0-4

[@TheSmokinApe]

I was surprised by that too, thanks for watching 👍

[@haxwithaxe]

The sarcasm is strong with this one 😂

[@TheSmokinApe]

Who, me?

[@HamRadioWithKE0MAD]

I concur, professor Ape

[@TheSmokinApe]

Thanks KE0MAD 👍

[@stevehildreth1934]

So... A ground plane just won't fly... or is it a ground plain, no landscaping? How can anyone pass the test for an amateur radio general license and not understand antenna basics?

[@TheSmokinApe]

It’s just a plain ole plane…

[@AndyAAzeroAM]

"Across" the earth. I get it haha😂

[@TheSmokinApe]

Right

[@youtubeaccount931]

HAHAHAHA! that intro. Have you experimented with those multiband ground plane antennas? (like DX commander makes)

[@TheSmokinApe]

I’m pretty familiar with them but have not owned one personally 🤨

[@youtubeaccount931]

@@TheSmokinApe me neither, im currently a dipole man

[@youtubeaccount931]

ok that came out weird

[@TheSmokinApe]

@@youtubeaccount931 lol

[@spaceflight1019]

I have a Cushcraft R5, and it seems to work out for me at just 10 feet above the ground.

[@dandypoint]

At the 3 minute point you misread 1/4 wave as 1/2 wave. Other wise great info.

[@TheSmokinApe]

D'oh! Thanks for the heads up DP 👍

[@pnowikow]

The sarcasm was pretty thick on that one of my friend😅🎉

[@TheSmokinApe]

Just a little, thanks for watching Pete 👍

[@1975adam]

Lmao😂 2 funny a thumbs up within the first 2 mins

[@TheSmokinApe]

Glad you liked it 👍

[@WC9Beau]

Wait I’m supposed to wear whitey tighties?

[@TheSmokinApe]

Yes

[@Bonsai-Miata2020]

Everyone is 5-9 , that is why they need several repeats to get your call correctly

[@TheSmokinApe]

Right

[@austinrich8343]

Prostate health Hell yeah

[@TheSmokinApe]

Right

[@LifeAtTerminalVelocity]

I'm betting the snarky comment was from Jeeeem.

[@TheSmokinApe]

Lol

[@JosephAnthonyJosefius]

I'd rather talk about ground planes than prostates.

[@TheSmokinApe]

I am the same way... weird right?

[@JosephAnthonyJosefius]

@@TheSmokinApe haha

[@KK6USYHamRadioAdventures]

And they not to do an intro Lol

[@TheSmokinApe]

You can say that again!

[@hazer72]

lol prostate health

[@TheSmokinApe]

lol

[@shreddder999]

2022? Well, so ground planes are outdated.

[@TheSmokinApe]

It’s not that old is it?