NEW!: The SECRETS of Ovenspring and Baking Temperatures

[@brookcodyprice]

By far, one of the best sourdough videos on KZbin, if not the best, regarding oven spring and temperatures.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you!

[@lisal.1962]

What a PHENOMENAL educational segment! You are an amazing, helpful, extremely intelligent guy! The fact that you went out of your way, spent hours and hours of assembling this information, creating the video and all of the slides/information.....I'm in awe of you! Thank you SO much for doing all you do! I love all of your videos!! We all appreciate your efforts! 😊

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you so much. I appreciate the feedback.

[@jessicastacey2046]

I'm blown away by your videos. Just what many of us sourdough geeks dream of but don't all have the committment and scientific vigilance to carry out! Grateful that you were inspired to take this journey and to share it with the world. So much great knowledge to be absorbed from all your videos. Thank you.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you! I really appreciate the feedback. I wish I had time to do even more experiments. Also check out my new website at thesourdoughjourney.com Lots of additional great content there.

[@lindsaylovesit]

Yes!!! Ditto!

[@dandooon99]

Oh Tom .. I've been searching for the best cooking temperature for sourdough for more than 3 yrs.. finally i find it 👌👌 .. you deserve so much appreciation from sourdough community

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you! I appreciate the feedback.

[@WhatWeDoChannel]

Wow, that was a lot of work, it’s appreciated! I’m a long time bread baker but new on this sour dough journey, it’s a different kettle of fish! My take home message from this video is that I need to work on the 80% factor…..proofing! I’m using the Le Crueset bread cloche for my sour dough, I have yet to see a real baker use one on KZbin, hint hint!

[@lindsaylovesit]

Yes!!! So very helpful!

[@dani.rose_]

I watched this more than once. Wow, so much information, I truly appreciate your hard work.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you!

[@juanantoniocaballero1704]

Brilliant, Tom. You're a wellspring of wisdom. Your videos have truly helped me become a better baker. Just a quick note: in the final comparison where all the results are shown in a single image, there's a small mistake in the third photo. It says that 450°F is equivalent to 243°C, but it should actually be 232°C. Gracias, and greetings from Spain!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank of so much. I appreciate the feedback. Also, thanks for catching that error. 🤦‍♂️

[@kdross6328]

Excellent treatise on sourdough thermodynamics. You explained something that it took me a while, and a couple of ruined bakes, to discover: As you said, you can never heat a loaf above boiling temperature - except after destroying it by removing all the moisture. The important thing to also know is that boiling temperature is not necessarily 212 F. It varies with altitude. 212 F is the boiling temperature at sea level. Up where I live, at 6,700 above sea level, the boiling point is about 198 F, so I am happy to get an internal temperature above 195 or so -- and never expect much higher. The problem is, that if you look up - "When is bread properly done?", the answers don't factor in altitude, and will have high elevation people chasing an impossible goal.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks! That is a great point. I should have mentioned that in the video. I will cover it in an upcoming video.

[@MarkKrebs]

Do you find it cooks quicker than expected? I do. Also seems to get bone dry inside. Another aside, I've been recommended to put an ice cube in the dutch oven along with the dough, to add more steam. Have you heard that one?

[@ujust8]

OMG I’ve been trying to learn how to make sourdough bread while recovering from surgery. I’ve watch so many KZbin videos in the last 5 weeks. Yours are the very best. Thank you so much. You have addressed so many of the problems I’ve had, right down to the pot size question. Love, love, love. And, your videos are not too long. Adore the scientists in your lab! 😄

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you! I appreciate the feedback.

[@mrgreenbudz37]

Interesting topic on the oven spring. I use two Dutch ovens same time in my gas oven one is a cast iron Lodge and one is a nice baked enamel slightly more round Dutch oven. The same dough just weighed out for two and I get different results between the two ovens. Both are nice but again different results. Your videos by the way are on the border of mind blowing as to how much information and in-depth you get. Thank you so much for all your amazing videos.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you! 🙏

[@jimfromri]

I can’t thank you enough for running these experiments and making such a detailed video of the process and the results. Clearly it must have been a ton of work. But I’m thrilled with all I’ve learned from watching the video and can’t wait to put these lessons into practice.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. I appreciate the feedback. I worked on this for over 3 months and it was one of the most complex experiments I’ve done.

[@AMSanchez18]

@@thesourdoughjourney your work is very appreciated👍🏽 Today I baked with lower temperature and used your parchment paper trick, it really did impact the oven spring. Thank you from Denmark 🇩🇰

[@Alex-ck4in]

Your channel is surely going to explode with viewers soon, your content is so valuable. Thanks for all the effort you put in!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. I appreciate the feedback. I spent two years really building out the content and now with my new website at thesourdoughjourney.com and on Instagram, I'm promoting the content. Thank you for the support.

[@jeanneknight4791]

This video is brillant for many reasons. You have answered questions lurking in the back of my own mind. The more one reads and the more one folows various content, the more insecurities arise. You have managed to answer so many questions! I've had some reservations about parchment paper because it prevents the sides of my loaf from browning but now you have given me another reason to change the way I use it. I am thinking about making a sling to lower smaller rounds of it into the preheated pot. You are committed to using cast iron. I have misplaced my Le Creuset or maybe I gave it away when I last moved. I found an old aluminum dutch oven without a lid in the garage that my father probably found at a yard sale. I then found a lid that fits but I suspect that this 100 year old pot wasn't ever completely round so I don't get a proper seal. I had reservations about aluminum because of the heat retention but it is light weight! I then started using my stainless steel stockpot which is very well made and I have fantastic results. People are hesitant on stainless steel for several reasons but I believe these are unfounded. Either they are using light weight steel pots bought in discount stores or they think there is some chemical change with the acid in the dough. Preposterous! I would never keep my starter in a metal container but baking is another matter. The other plus for using the steel stock pot is that it doesn't weigh as much as the cast iron. This is a consideration for people such as myself who have limits on what they can lift or carry. Thanks for your dedication and hard work in bringing us useful information!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Stainless steel is fine. It is not a reactive metal. Thanks for sharing. Some people also have good luck with enameled roasting pans.

[@Summerfield-c1z]

Hi Tom, when I heard you say the International Institute etc. etc. I thought no way, then you said your kitchen, I decided to listen on. I am so glad I did, you answered many of my questions. I have been baking sourdough bread for several years, with some limited success. I have kept going, because it is enjoyable. Thank you for taking the time to put this long video together. I believe it will help many people to have more joy in baking bread. I found the lower temperatures very interesting, as I use several heavy flours on high temperatures I get little oven spring. I think it is in the fermentation process. So I will progress down these lines. Thank you once again, a very interesting video.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you! I appreciate the feedback.

[@shelly2758]

You are the man! My first loaf was a brick. LOL! I’m doing the second loaf now. I reduced the to 425, Bake time will be longer. I didn’t have high expectations. I’ll eventually figure out my variables . You are so right in speaking about everyone’s equipment and loaf are different. It’s not a one size fits all. If nothing else, I’m having so much fun trying ! Thanks, Tom !

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks you. Good luck!

[@tnweed]

Congratulations on the new division, A truly must in a respected institute like yours 😂 Just love the sense of humor! Thank you very much on the effort in all your videos!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you! I appreciate the feedback.

[@CarolynS-f3m]

Thanks!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you 🙏

[@jimoray3]

You are phenomenal. Your teaching content is outstanding. Thank you! I’ve discovered that my oven temps are critical at time of preheat and bake. We are at 7,000 feet above sea level and no humidity therefore I have in pediments. I’m learning. Thank you

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you! I appreciate the feedback. Also check out my website for more info. thesourdoughjourney.com/encyclopedia/

[@alishatruemper9501]

I love that someone is doing these kinds of experiments!!!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you 🙏

[@Sqwifeve]

Very informative. Another gadget to buy but seems worth it. I'm not buying a bigger Dutch oven, just using what I have. I think you are teaching me a lot by your experiments so I thank you.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks! If you use a small Dutch oven try slightly lowering the temp, as an experiment.

[@ThePhilbox]

Tom, you are just killing it man....I've improved my bread dramatically through my studies at the institute. The loafs I bake now, well...I think the cool kids would approve. If i didn't have two small children to feed Id send a pile of money. Your explorations and teaching are unmatched. You deserve to be sourdough famous, that's for sure.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. I appreciate the feedback!

[@GarlandStringedInstruments]

Really useful research here, Tom, thanks a lot for being so thorough. I've learned a lot and will be applying it from now on!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you!

[@lolajacomino6574]

Thank you for sharing your work with us. We learn a lot with you. You make it look easy but I know it takes a lot of time and effort. Thank you Tom ❤

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. I appreciate the feedback.

[@Russian5]

I'm finding this, and your other videos, so helpful. So informative, resulting in more efficient and better tasting sourdough. Thanks for all you've done on your channel.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you so much. I appreciate the support.

[@chrisspletstoser337]

I have wanted to try the method of no preheat and have been afraid to. The Test Kitchen also did a segment baking sourdough this was with no preheat. I am now not afraid to try thx to you! Appreciate all your teaching! I have learned a lot!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks!

[@olivepressdesign]

Amazing video. Such detail, so informative and great humor. I really learnt so much, and I watched from beginning to end. A true testament to your ability to communicate information. Great job Tom. Thank you so much for sharing everything.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you so much. I appreciate the feedback.

[@magelinekelley7536]

I watched the entirety of this video and came away much learned than I was 2 hours ago. I hope to remember all of it. Thank you for this thorough investigation and experimentation. I’m sure the world of beginning sourdough bakers find it very useful as are your other videos.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. Here is a summary of the key points. thesourdoughjourney.com/the-secrets-of-baking-temperature-and-ovenspring/

[@sharkguyjean]

VERY Informative..Now I gotta go rethink my whole baking process but have some good info to work with. Thanks from Central Texas Tom!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you!

[@brendabee]

Wildly informational video! Thank you at the institute for my ever learning sourdough bake experience 🙏 anyone who bakes sourdough ought to invest the time to watch this video of yours. Thanks 😊

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. 🙏

[@classicalbean]

Thanks for being so meticulous about the experiment (even cooling and reheating the Dutch oven) and explaining the relationship between temperatures and what happening inside the loaf. ❤thank you.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you!

[@emmabaido458]

Another fabulous, educational video. Love that you cover every single aspect and include it in your videos. Thank you. Glad you had some extra staff members helping you out this time 😉

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks!

[@Zumerjud]

Thank you for unraveling this mystery

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks.

[@a.w.3480]

very cool & informative details... So, my method that i fell into accidentally way before i ever even heard of the oven off method is: Preheat oven & Baking Steel at 500F for 35-40 min. Place a thin walled 6" deep 2/3 size metal hotel pan in for a couple min while i score the cold dough (850g-1,100g) & spray it all over with water. Slide it (on paper) onto the steel & cover it with the pan like a Cloche, then turn OFF the oven. 12 min later turn the oven ON to 430F & continue to cook another 10-12 min before taking off the pan/cloche, and sliding a cookie cooling rack under the dough while removing the paper (prevents burning the bottom). Cook another 20-30 min to desired color. This is BY FAR the best oven spring & crust i have ever gotten and i have tried almost every option out there over the years.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

I should have credited you with the oven-off method!

[@a.w.3480]

@@thesourdoughjourney Haha, im pretty sure it existed well before i turned my oven off on accident a year ago, i just had not actually ever heard of it as a real method before i looked it up after that happened, LOL

[@foodbodSourdough]

What a great video, thank you so much for including my cold bake method. The comparisons are great to see side by side 🤩

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you! I’ve tried your cold bake method a few times now with good results every time. I also have an interesting Timelapse video of the loaf rising using the cold bake method (not included in the video). I’ll post this on one of the Facebook groups next week.

[@foodbodSourdough]

@@thesourdoughjourney great! Please do tag me 👍🏻👍🏻

[@ntc9499]

Hi your experiments are great thank you! I live in the UK and use Elaine’s method (no more burns from loading dough thank you Elaine x) however I use a Falcon enamel roasting pan as a Dutch oven rather than cast iron - I think that’s what Elaine uses too? So it would heat up much quicker than a traditional Dutch oven

[@tammy-truth-researcher]

Wow. Thank you for doing such a meticulous experiment. I've never baked sourdough, and am grateful to have found you before starting. I love your methodical approach. You have taken apprehension and guesswork out of the baking process for me!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. Also check out my website at thesourdoughjourney.com Lots of great info there too.

[@gershhayes796]

I love these videos, when I see "oven spring and baking temperatures " 1hr45min..lol I listen while I work and I think I'm getting more from osmosis than anything else. Thank you for making these , it's an amazing amount of work.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. I appreciate the feedback. This one took me three months of testing and prep.

[@Bozemancurtis]

Great video. Thank you for putting so much work into this.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you!

[@nicholasloverde5932]

Hey Tom have been taking in all your info from your videos from start to finish , your title is perfect because it has been a sour dough journey for sure after struggling with the starter you made it perfectly understandable.. be patient.. making some great loafs for friends and family .. now too brush up on putting my starter on hold ! Thanks again . Nick from New York 👍🏻

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you, Nick. Also check out my website. I’ve organized the content there a bit better than on KZbin. Thesourdoughjourney.com

[@nicholasloverde5932]

Thanks Tom I’ll check it out for sure ! Be well my friend .. 👍🏻

[@StagArmslower]

I noticed the light coloring of the lower side of the dough caused by parchment paper insulating effect. It happens that Amazone sells round pieces of parchment in different diameter and your method of sliding the dough with supporting sheet is great idea. Fascinating as usual. Thanks. Bayda way, there is a moment in the journey of bread baking when everything kicks in in your head and it becomes foolproof.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks for the tip.

[@markmills5869]

Tom thanks you are a legend. love your presentation style. information packed and just enough humour. The findings and recommendations is pure gold. thank you again.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you for the feedback. I really appreciate it.

[@ImperfectProgression]

Love this, would love to see a comparison of preheating the oven but NOT preheating the dutch oven or also comparing a roasting pan or loaf pan. I use a combination of all of these without preheating them.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks. I’ve done some one-off experiments like this, but will add it to my list. I do like preheating my oven for 30 minutes, but only putting the Dutch oven in to preheat for the last 15 minutes.

[@27kjh]

Thanks for all your work, it’s so helpful. I just tried the cold method and got decent oven spring. What I liked the best was the texture of the crust…it was so crispy.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks!

[@Blue-Kayak]

Thank you so much for putting all of this together. I am going to start using my infrared thermometer and experiment with the cold start method.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks. The infrared thermometer to test the Dutch oven temp gives very, very consistent results.

[@andersenchiangmai]

You are really providing usefull comparisons that nobody else provide. Good proof that baking temperature and time have little effect on the final product quality....

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks for the feedback. I have a lot of great new content coming out in the next few months. Stay tuned.

[@jkaznosky]

Donated. Thank you for Bulk-o-Matic and in general, using scientific method to assist in baking. As a nerd, I love it.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you! I appreciate the feedback and the support.

[@francinebailey2221]

This is SO interesting, I’m learning a lot, thank you. Slight annoyance is that a lot of the domestic ovens in the UK have a max temp of 240c

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks. You can bake well at 240C.

[@dani.rose_]

I love your channel. I’m so glad I found your channel. This is so fascinating.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you!

[@janmiller1850]

Loved your video ... so informative and entertaining! The only note I'd want to add is that Elaine Boddy, in the video of hers I watched, uses an enameled roasting pan not a cast iron dutch oven. I suspect the difference in baking pans has a pretty large effect on the finished product as well as all interim temperatures.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you! You are correct. I thought I mentioned that but maybe I did not.

[@kenworthington1312]

I learned a lot, as usual. Glad I watched until the end! I have 2 different size DOs and use parchment paper. Some great info on those issues! Thanks for your dedication and thoroughness.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you? This was a long one, but so much info to cover.

[@kenworthington1312]

@@thesourdoughjourney Ha! Yes, that was meant as a compliment. Because of your thoroughness I now have two options to deal with my smaller DO. I can keep using slightly oversize parchment paper or put the smaller one in later during the preheat. That was a remarkable catch by you!

[@AndyReadGuitar]

Easily the most informative, detailed, exhaustive video on this process; well done, and your time and effort is very appreciated! 👏🙏

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks for the feedback.

[@chevpowr]

learned an immense amount of knowledge thanks to you. extremely thankful for your videos. also i purchased some amazing flour thanks to one of your other videos. cheers

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you!

[@CarolynS-f3m]

I am really learning from your experiments. I'm on my third loaf and am using a covered enamel roasting pan with a trivet under my parchment until I find a thrift store DO. So far I have gotten good crust, but not much spring and baking lid on 35 min at 450. 25 min lid off. Maybe because of my oven or pan. Still figuring out my best recipe. This last loaf I think I used too much starter (125g) and may have overproofed. I finally saw your info on the amount of starter ratio to flour so I should have looked first. Shocking about the parchment and now I have an understanding about my pan and results I've gotten so far. Thanks for all these great details.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks!

[@artsymargo]

Thank you, Tom. I'm trying hard to economize in every sensible way, so I was most interested in loaf #2 with no preheating. Good comparison with your 25 min. preheat and that the cold method doesn't really save any time, but my oven (gas, about 13 years old) takes about 45 mins. to preheat to 500. You have provided the scientific method work and explanation to give me confidence to try this no-preheat method with my sluggish oven, which could potentially save me 20 mins. of my time and energy costs (albeit, probably less than $1).

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. Let me know if it works for you.

[@john.home1]

Tom, thank you for doing this. It would be interesting to compare loaves baked in a cloche and on a steel with steam added to the environment. Have you done any baking with freshly milled flour? I have been experimenting with using up to 50% hard red or hard white freshly milled wheat. Great flavor and tighter crumb. I prefer this bread for toast and sandwiches.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you, John. The next round of tests will be using different types of vessels. I generally do not use fresh milled flours. They’re too highly variable for these experiments. But maybe I’ll try some for my “normal eatin’” bread. Thanks!

[@debrafrederick5300]

Bravo! What amazing and tedius experimentation, to help us all understand the science. Thank you! This was very helpful!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you!

[@jeremynicoletti9060]

You, Sir, are a true bread nerd. Thanks for sharing your findings.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. I take that as the highest compliment!

[@michellecaudill7936]

Wow, thanks for all your hard work and effort. That was very interesting.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you.

[@geraldinemcguire1698]

Fascinating. Answered a lot of questions. Less parchment paper, less preheating. Lower temperature. And it all depends.😊

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you.

[@winewoman224]

Thank you for scientifically validating what I’ve felt for years with my bread baking.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you for the feedback. I appreciate it.

[@teod.2779]

Thank you, Tom! A lot of valuable information! I was expecting your findings regarding the size of the Dutch oven. ;) I appreciate all your work and the way you present it.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. I appreciate the feedback. And thanks for watching. This was a long one, but I wanted to capture everything on this topic in one place.

[@rejuveniledelinquent3522]

The amount of work you put into this is astonishing. This is a fantastic video and absolutely invaluable. This video should be a reference point for anyone looking to dig into the nuance of sourdough baking. Thank you so much!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. I appreciate the feedback. Also check out my website.

[@mikesousa8367]

Thank you so much for all your hard work, that I don't need to do now. So many of my questions answered, and ones I didn't know I needed to ask. I am going to change the things that have been plaguing my oven spring, and I hope this will bring to an end my disappointing outcomes. thanks again Mike Sousa

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks. Let me know how it works out.

[@lbamusic]

As usual, a great set of useful, informative experiments from the Midwest Sourdough Institute!! I really eat this stuff up and can't get enough!! many thanks to you again !!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you for watching. I appreciate the feedback.

[@jessicacwo]

I really appreciate your video. I am still a bit far from getting my loaves this consistent. I would be thrilled if my loaves turned out anything like any of these. Will keep watching, learning and experimenting.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. Also check out my website. Lots more info there.

[@alfontana6242]

Tom thanks for your very informative video. You cover all the bases in all the variables in baking. I always pickup something new when I watch your videos. With electric and natural gas rates on the rise I was really impressed how you baked from a cold oven at 450 degrees and that resulted in a nice loaf of bread. I think I am going to give that one a try, and it sure would save some money in using less energy. Thanks again Tom for all the work you put into your videos. No one on KZbin does it like you do when It comes to sourdough bread.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. I was also surprised that the cold start method with no preheating worked.

[@teod.2779]

Hi, Tom! I missed your lessons and experiments! I was wondering what took you so long... I will watch this new video in a few hours!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

I’ve been working on this one for 3 months.

[@teod.2779]

@@thesourdoughjourney OMG! A lot of research! As always!

[@cktse_jp]

Thanks for the detailed treatise on the science of baking temp, super educational!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you.

[@candywalker483]

Great help. Appreciate your hard work and scientific approach.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate it. You can find a written summary of this video here. thesourdoughjourney.com/the-secrets-of-baking-temperature-and-ovenspring/

[@facelessman3685]

Thank you for the Video and the time you put into the science of Sourdough. Your new staff are a huge help! I've only made 12 loaves of sourdough and the biggest change for me came when I started using the cold retard on number 11 and 12. Prior to this video, I was pre-heating my pan for 45 minutes, and I was leaving the lid on. Thanks for the great science of sourdough.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate it.

[@southafricanrhino]

Congratulations on expanding the Institute with two great new staff. I am looking forward to more good sourdough science being produced in the future ;)

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you!

[@TerrieAllred2023]

I wish I could post photos here, but I found that if I fold my parchment paper in quarters and cut it out in the shape of the letter P, and unfold, then I have an oval underneath my dough, and a thin handle on each side to life the bread out when done. the sides get plenty of convection this way. Very informative video! Thank you for your teachings!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks. You may have learned that from one of my later videos. I do the exact same thing!

[@TerrieAllred2023]

I didn't, because I just discovered your videos yesterday. Great minds think alike :)@@thesourdoughjourney

[@alexmuntyan4388]

Thank you!!! You made the most helpful and detailed video

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. Also check out my new website at thesourdoughjourney.com

[@lindsaylovesit]

I’m relatively new to sourdough but I have loved your very informative videos and charts! I’ve printed many of them as references. TY! I preheat my cast iron Dutch oven until the Dutch oven wall temp reaches 500. Then I… - reduce the oven temp to 450 - add my scored sourdough after a cold retard - add 1 ice cube between the parchment paper and the Dutch oven and put the lid on for 30 min (I tried 20 and 25 but got best results with 30) - then I reduce the oven temp to 400 and take the lid off for 15 min - my last loaf was the biggest and best with beautiful ears and a perfect crumb Note: I pre-shaped that loaf before resting for 20 min and shaping (gently) again before putting in the banneton and the fridge for 12 hrs I love how you’ve tested all of the variables and make it easier for us newer bakers to bake the perfect loaf. I’ve used your info to tweak my process and I love the results! One question… what temp do you keep your starters at until feeding again? Just curious… obviously warmer temps means a faster rise; I’m just trying to time it so that I can bake with part of my starter (without having to make a levain) and feed the remainder in the morning. I hope that makes sense! Thank you again!!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks. I keep my starter at all different temperatures. I use the temp (fridge, countertop, warming mat) to speed it up or slow it down for my schedule.

[@lindsaylovesit]

@@thesourdoughjourney got it! That’s what I’ve been doing too based on what I plan on doing with it each day. I’ve been making a loaf a day. I have 4 kids and my husband loves sourdough too:). Thanks for all you do here! I’ve learned so much and appreciate your scientific mind and all of your experiments and analogies! So thorough and you don’t leave any step out… I greatly appreciate as there are no questions left unanswered!

[@Beentherebefore1]

Thank you for such intense measuring. This was so stinking interesting. A big thank you.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you for the feedback. I appreciate it.

[@boonchyelim8598]

Excellent video, I can't thk you enough for generously sharing yr knowledge with the community. Kudos.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you for the feedback. I appreciate it.

[@yarnexpress]

Just watched this video again &, as usual, learned more. I, also, follow proof bread. From what I've been able to observe, is that PB sets their deck ovens in the 420-430F range. I know/understand that there are major differences between a commercial deck oven & my home oven Dutch oven method. Based on your video, I'm going to try baking when my DO is about 430F. Wonder if I'll see a difference?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

All I can suggest is to experiment. It’s the only way. Every oven and baking vessel behaves differently. Once you get it dialed in, if is repeatable.

[@PodsofWar]

I just moved into a tiny house, and I opted to not buy an oven. I'm working w/ a ninja speedi. I've been successful at baking sourdough in it even though it maxes out at 400 degrees. I was searching 400 degree sourdough recipes when this popped up! You're right, you're just about the only person on the internet who says it can be done at a lower temp. Thank you for this :) It's really helped my experiments!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks!

[@skippee101]

I have learned so much from this. Thank you so much for sharing it.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you!

[@marilyne1323]

Fantastic video, thank you so much Tom!! So much great info, I learned a lot!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks!

[@lauracooper6549]

I somehow missed this one! Can’t wait to watch! Thank you :)

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks. I really enjoyed making this one.

[@lauracooper6549]

@@thesourdoughjourney I got quite the chuckle out of the mad scientists in your lab 😂

[@SupportWeThePeopleKB]

Wonderful experiments. Thank you for your assiduous attention to detail. Your approach made me think of the delightful book "Lessons In Chemistry" without the dog or social drama. (It’s now a series….) Thanks again for your videos; I’m putting them to good use.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. I watched the series and saw some of myself there.

[@lynnperton9126]

Really appreciated you in depth video.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks!

[@bellottibellotti9185]

thanks for gathering so much research - putting so much time in energy into this investigation WOW! and then the spider...Bravo for the dedication to sourdough. WOW! is the heat a wave or a particle ? HA .. I dub you the "well rounded baker." thanks again for all your time and energy

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. 🙏

[@belizekaviar1263]

hi ,I have used for the perfect oven spring ,a braadpan van glas >300 degrees ,normal for baking meat, in oven , but I used it for the firts sourdough bread, it's looks like a Dutch oven only from full glass hittebestendig met deksel ,I can perfect measure the temperature with the infrared meter. and I can see how it's going into my combi grill microwave oven.. awesome ..perfect oven spring..I love it ..thank you for your professionalism ..😊

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you so much.

[@pedroruizpoyatos8367]

Hola Tom desde España no tengo nada como agradecerte tú generosidad en cada video que nos enseñas el místico resultado de la unión agua-harina,entre otras cosas.... Muchas gracias.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

gracias por los comentarios. Lo aprecio!

[@supernoobsmith5718]

😲 Wow! Really eye opening to find the dutch oven temp so different than the preheated oven! I MUST get an infrared thermometer! Sometimes I get to my oven right away and sometimes I'm busy and let it go a bit.....and this could answer for some variations in my bakes....really surprised!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks. It does make a huge difference.

[@viktoriapeterson489]

Great set of experiments. Like your temperature writeups. In the list of necessary elements for success in spring, I was surprised that you did not mention a well-fed active starter.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks. Good point. I should have included that!

[@yougkuan9198]

This was a lot of work in terms of preparations and energy input but also some very interesting revelations. Learned so much more again! Really appreciated this and Thank You for this share! Kudos ;D

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks. I appreciate the feedback.

[@kevinu.k.7042]

Great video. A lot of work and thought has gone into this. Thank you. Just now and then you say things that are simply wrong. Pardon me for saying. Depth of scoring makes a huge difference. Over here in Europe we make many more breads than are typically seen on You Tube. Each has different scoring, placed differently on the loaf to get different blooming effects. So for instance Chad's off centre scoring was his Tartine signature. It make one side collapse outwards. In France (where he learned his craft) it is more typical to score on top, or with a bâtard with three diagonal score. Varying the depth of scoring will increase or decrease the extent of the blooming. No, it is very hard to get the inside of a loaf to 100C. Anyway the starch is fully gelatinised at 99C. Elsewhere (the adjoining article - which was superb BTW - You talk about doneness as if independent of internal dough temperature. No, internal temp. is the best way of measuring doneness. The internal bread water converts to water vapour well below boiling point. We call it evaporation in everyday life. I'm sorry you are really off on your temperatures at 28:20. 99C is the temp at which the starch is fully gelatinised. That is what we want with this style of loaf. A sandwich loaf we want 92C - 94C. With all of your temperature measuring devices and you think the loaf rapidly gets to near boiling? No it does not. The temperature rapidly rises toward the end of the bake. So it is not at 99C for very long before the loaf is baked. Once it get's there you've got your full gelatinised starch and you can finesse your crust with another fove minutes if you want. Bread crust and uncovering the D.O. The crust starts the Maillard reaction *when the loaf stops producing so much internal dough steam* allowing the crust temperature to increase to 150C. The external steam in the D.O. has already decreased by this point. It is not that necessary to uncover the D.O. just increase the time a few minutes. Yeast die off is the wrong temperature to use here. Yeast stops all fermentation at around 36C. With a sourdough bread the acidity has already reduced the speed of the yeast fermentation as well. Yeast activity in the oven is minimal and has little to do with oven spring. However as the CO2 gas in the vacuoles heats up it rapidly expands and that is most of the oven spring. Expanding water vapour also plays a big part. With your first loaf you under pre-heated the D.O. by 50C - You were not baking at 200C. Even 20 minutes in you did not reach 200C. That makes a nonsense of the test. Staying with the first loaf. At a final internal temperature of 80C The bread was not properly baked. 87C is generally regarded as a minimum. Reinhart says 93C. Sorry to have banged on a bit. I do read tech. articles and measure everything as well. Add to that 20 years of study baking and twenty before that. I'm afraid many of your ideas do not stand up to the science. You should perhaps study more before holding forth like this. I say this kindly as you are clearly a sincere person who cares about what you do. However your practical results are gold dust. Thanks for testing the cold method. That is gold dust. Thank you.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate it. I do study the science before doing these videos. In this case my primary sources were Modernist Bread (Myhrvold and Migoya) and Sourdough Baking; A Treatise (Thomas Teffri-Chambelland). But I also produce these videos as live experiments and I just report out what I observe. Sometimes it comports with the science and sometimes it does not. I try to be transparent in what I’m doing. I live a sea level (100m) so it is easier and faster to hit 100C than in other locations. My emphasis on the fermentation happening in the oven is due to the popularity of the “cold start” method where people are not preheating the oven (and overproofing their loaves). I agree in a normal preheated oven, there is almost no additional fermentation happening. I don’t agree that the fermentation largely stops late in the process. My final proofed dough usually has a pH of 4.1 and the CO2 production doesn’t really stop until it hits about 3.8. This was my first test of Maillard reaction and I appreciate your insight on that.

[@kevinu.k.7042]

@@thesourdoughjourney Thank you so much for the Teffri-Chambelland reference. I didn't know he had published a Sourdough Bread Book. I know him from You Tube. Impressive baker. I have ordered it this morning. FWIW I draw on a lot of research papers. Modernist Bread is fairly good, but it is patchy. Key subjects completely missed out and information too often given in brief form with very little data. Myhrvold seems to be more interested in photography. And, it _appears_ Reinhart jumped ship early on. I was disappointed with it at the price. But, yes it is a good source. I have great respect for your approach and the thoroughness and huge effort you put in. I have little doubt about your empirical findings. I was more concerned about some of your explanations which seemed founded on a less than full understanding of the processes involved. Yet even the best bread knowledge is still limited despite the many $millions spent on research. The chemistry interlinks so many different reactions. Maybe AI will sort that out. _What follows is more in the way of discussion and in no way criticism. I hope that is acceptable._ Two things stood out for me and I am grateful for the data. You had me reaching for references! (See 56:30) You found that internal dough temperature rose steadily and then more slowly at a steady rate until it reached peak temperature. It is measured, Irrefutable except by repeat experiment, further evidence. See Modernist Bread 3:290. Your internal dough temp. curve at 46:19 seemed more in line with that. Though I expect the curve will change depending on whether a tin/pan is used, or not. The curve flattens toward the end because the dough cannot reach 100C (at STP) as driving water vapour out of the loaf uses up energy preventing the loaf from reaching 100C at Standard Temp. and Pressure. Again your curve at 46:19 confirmed that. I'm sure baking in a blast furnace would give different results though. Yes, with a cold oven some fermentation must continue as the oven warms. Agreed. Oven power and insulation will have a big influence on the speed at which the oven reaches yeast inactivity levels (say 32-4C). Fan on or off too. Ah, Yeast activity and acidity. It's a difficult one. There are so many variables, buffering, the different variety of yeast present, what other molecules that might be present causing additional stress the yeast. Though it is generally held that at pH4.3 yeast activity is greatly diminished and it's activity rate is falling sharply. Your figure of pH3.8 is for zero activity? I know that at pH 4.4 I'm in for an extended proofing time because of slower yeast fermentation. But there too the LABS, some of which produce CO2 are still pretty active at that point. It get's complicated. All this said and done your approach is refreshing. I have little doubt you will bust a lot of myths along the way and so many which You Tube channels continuously promulgate by copycat. Home Bread Baking is fast becoming the last remaining enclave for 'real' craft baking. Artisan baking is moving away with accelerated methods in order to compete in the market place. And small batch baking uses different methodology to them anyway. So I think your work is very important. BTW I write home bread baking articles for more advanced home bakers. Trying, like you, to bring the science into the home and busting myths along the way. I think we may be of a kind. I hope my posts are are seen as being as sincere and thoughtful as you and your work. I have considerable respect for your response to my first post. I wish you and your project the very best.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. I appreciate the thoughtful feedback and insights. I’ve done some interesting studies of starter behavior using sealed pressure vessels and pH meters. It is not an ideal lab setup but I’ve run over 100 experiments and documented some interesting observations. Here are a few summaries. thesourdoughjourney.com/white-wheat-or-rye-what-is-the-best-flour-to-feed-your-starter/ thesourdoughjourney.com/can-you-freeze-your-sourdough-starter/ thesourdoughjourney.com/can-you-use-an-unfed-starter-directly-from-the-refrigerator/ I’d also love to get your opinion on the “acetone” odor in a starter (particularly a new one). thesourdoughjourney.com/my-sourdough-starter-smells-like-acetone/ You can email me directly at [e-mail]

[@kevinu.k.7042]

​ @thesourdoughjourney Hi Tom Thank you for all of those links. That is right up my street. I shall enjoy those. Currently I am trying to meet some deadlines. I've saved the links for later. Thanks. I have no research evidence on why natural leavens sometimes smell of acetone. I do know that it can occur when it has not been fed for quite a while, or if it is kept above ideal yeast temperatures, say 32C(?). My guess is that the environment becomes either too acidic for the yeast, to hot for it to function or a lack of nutrition leading it to go into stasis. I suspect that unwanted bacteria can then take hold and it may be they which produce that chemical, or smell. Occasionally a new leaven might develop that smell if it is slow getting started and again I suspect it is unwanted bacteria at play before the yeast colony becomes strong enough to control their activity. These are guesses. I use whole grain flour to start a new leaven. Comparing it to white flour the nutrient and amylase levels are much higher and the starters develop much more quickly. I also add a little rye flour for the high amylase content which makes maltose from the starches and gives the yeast a boost. Kept at 26C - 28C a starter can be ready for the first bake in 48 hours. Though it takes approx. four weeks for the LABs to establish as it does for all starters. I mention this as the fast start up never gives me acetone smells. Also I store my starter in the fridge where it sits quite happily unfed for a week. Again with no acetone smells. The French like to add fruit to their new starters for the amylase in the fruit. I suspect a little diastatic malt would be a good booster for getting a new starter going for the same reason. TBH I've never needed to do this. I read about people struggling to get a new starter going. Always they are using white flour. Leaving temperature control out of the equation, (I suspect often the kitchen is too cool), I really wonder whether starting off with a nutrient and enzyme poor medium is wise. I merely take 50g of my wholemeal starter and feed it up with white flour when I want a white flour dough. It's still ready to use in 4-6 hours. The wholemeal / whole grain starter is much more robust. But, that is merely my way of managing starters. Which brings me to starters. Mine is a rolling one. Whatever leaven isn't used just goes back into the fridge. That is my starter to feed up for the next bake. I have a rolling leaven. No discards, no fuss, always works. Thanks for the links. I think the work you are doing is superb. There is such a great need to build up a body of knowledge appropriate to home baking if only to act as a bulwark against poor method and methods inappropriately brough over from commercial baking. Cheers.

[@BakersBiscuit]

Wow. Great video. I have a sourdough loaf in the fridge right now. I really want to try the cold method tomorrow, now that I've watched your experiments...

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks. Good luck!

[@carolmelancon]

Fabulous video, thank you. Did you notice any difference in crust thickness? I've had some loaves, while trying different techniques, come out with a very thick crust that is difficult for the bread knife (I bought the one you recommend) to cut and is almost painful to eat. I'd love to understand what factors contribute to crust thickness.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks! A few ways to soften the crust include: 1) add oil or butter to the mix, 2) bake longer with the lid on, 3) ferment the dough longer. I’ve left my shaped loaves in the fridge for 3 days before baking. Also, when you take the loaf out of the oven, wrap it in a kitchen towel. That will capture moisture in the crust and soften it a bit.

[@mhack9881]

@@thesourdoughjourney Thank you for answering this question. It has been a baine to my existance on this mortal coil. Good work. I appreciate it.

[@robertbob980]

i like the idea of smaller parchment paper .then using larger piece to slide off into the dutch oven .. was huge help ..i start at 550 degrees .. for ten min ... then lower to 450 .. i find that the Flour i use is a Biggy .. different flour .. different results .. thank you for this video .. oh and yes letting loaf rest to room temp is a Must .. .

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks!

[@johnmcdowell4634]

Thee best baking data I have seen!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you!

[@janefriedrich8772]

Great information! This is very interesting science. I have Baked using Elaine Foodbods cold oven method with good results as well.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. I’ve also had success with that method.

[@chefforrest]

Great video. Thanks for all the work.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you.

[@DANVIIL]

Excellent and useful information and thanks for all of your work on this video

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you! I appreciate the feedback.

[@legallycurated1796]

amazing content....ty for dispelling baking myths

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you!

[@meliskitchenette83]

Thank you so much for sharing these great experiments. It was well explained in details for easy understanding. Greatly appreciate it, it would take ages for us to explore it on our own. Bravo for a good job and Thank You 👍🏻

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you so much. I appreciate the feedback.

[@marcr8072]

Hello, In cooking with a DO, how to manage the cooking time according to the weight and temperature of the dough? Thank you so much.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

A standard 500g flour weight loaf bakes for 20 minutes with the lid on and 20 min with the lid off at about 450F. Smaller loaves (300g) bake the same time with the lid on and same temp, and only take about 5-8 minutes less.

[@marcr8072]

@@thesourdoughjourney Perfect. Thank.

[@休士]

What a well designed and executed scientific experiment. High quality data that could be published on scientific journal. Thank you so much. As you mentioned, good bulk fermentation is the base of everything. I was still struggle with it. I thought lower hydration is benefit for the oven spring before watching this video. I look forward to see more experiments, like hand vs. machine knead, Douth oven vs. steel plus steam and so on. Thank you, Dr. sourdough bread making.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you for the feedback. I appreciate it. I will be covering some of those topics in my next round of videos starting in September. In the meantime, please check out my new website at thesourdoughjourney.com.

[@休士]

@@thesourdoughjourney It's smart to add sheet as you showed at 42:10, I will test it's effect. Thank you again.

[@allonaquatics]

Hi Tom, 54 degrees and millions of lives are silenced. Excellent video as they really all are. We should get Alton Brown to join you for an episode. My question to,you is the oven setting. Mine is a fairly new Bosch and has fan forced, 3d air, pizza 9heat at bottom), top and bottom no fan etc… looking at the manual they seem to apply to single or multiple trays and the top and bottom no fan says it’s for traditional baking. I have tried 3 variations with minimal difference but my challenge is still oven spring at bake 4. You have been a great help

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you! Yes, I would suggest top and bottom with no fan. Isn’t setting 4 only 180C/350F? I’m not familiar with the conversions.

[@allonaquatics]

@@thesourdoughjourney sorry, bake 4 was a reference to my 4th baking attempt at the Tartine method... Breads are good except for the rise and end up dense. I think this one will work. Have embarked on your bulk fermentation series (good thing work is slow!!)