They didn't belive me... M50 vs F7A

[@DayLateGamerWill]

"STAY ON THAT BONER! " "KEEP PRESSURE ON IT!" accidental comedy

[@StoneCoolds]

pure gaming porn lol

[@pizzagod88]

shit was funny as f

[@AdolfoWWolf]

Holy crap man hehehhehe

[@talonsyn]

Yeah. Boner is a hard one to put down, but if you do manage it, you'll definitely be the talk of the locker room - everyone will be wondering how you pulled it off!

[@RomanorumVita]

I'm glad this was top comment because I audibly laughed when this happened lol

[@Alias_Reign]

After this additional information I think I’d put the Gladius, F7a, and the M50 all in an S tier bracket for their respective engagement sizes.

[@Dre9872]

This was true in EVE Online as well, a group of small fast interceptors were deadly as they are so hard to hit but can keep up a constant DPS on target and gradually wear it down.

[@rclines001]

The screwed up EVE online by making it impossible for large guns to hit small ships and how cruise missiles and torps barely scratched them.

[@Tbone-the-1nfinite]

@@rclines001 You have no idea what you're talking about, large guns and torpedoes can absolutely annihilate frigates and even one or two shot them, the trick is you have to actually know what you're doing.

[@rclines001]

@@Tbone-the-1nfiniteMaybe they have changed it in the years since I have been gone, but when I left, that wasn't the case. I played from 2003 till 2018.

[@Hexyn]

needed to see the same teams switch ships.

[@PursauntYapper]

Not as informative when your perspective is the respawn screen, both teams stayed the same over multiple tests flying both ships. the hornets never won and from memory the first clip is the one where they got the most kills. Multiple were finished with all alive only 1 or 2 m50s with very minor damage

[@androssthered1157]

Wasn't in the video but teams were switched and it was still a massacre.

[@joshua41175]

Listen guys, Linus Tech Tips already made this mistake. "Trust me bro" doesn't hold water with critics.

[@PursauntYapper]

@@joshua41175 lol that is a terrible example you clearly have no understanding of the original "trust me bro" promise and the incredible follow up on the trust me policy with replacement and returns. Hell they found a fault in the zipper pull and replaced them all for free with even better upgrades. So your example is you don't understand what you are mad about and the man is proven right all along in the end...cool I guess

[@PursauntYapper]

@@joshua41175 I'm curious what do you think he has to gain from lying about this?

[@TheChopperMac]

I loved my M50 not for fighting, but to visit places knowing I can easily escape if needed.

[@AW-po7jr]

I still love it for sightseeing and racing

[@msihcs8171]

One of the most fun ships to fly, I don't have any experience with the newer ships to know if the Mirai Guardian can keep up

[@klm2fm4]

The M50 and the Razor switch out for my go to’s for single seat exploration

[@cdgonepotatoes4219]

This is the right kind of balance. Interceptors should have a leg up against heavy fighters with the proper application of strategy. What they should now be compared against is taking on a single larger target on a timer. The correct result should be that the interceptor wing is going to stuggle significantly more than the heavy wing against the larger opponent, or the power balance will need to be tuned so heavy fighters aren't robbed of a job.

[@xsvforce3335]

@@cdgonepotatoes4219 spot on. I have been saying this since the light fighter dominated meta of 3.15 and such. Light fighters should kill other fighters but be very poor at stopping bombers. For bombers, you want heavy. Medium fighters are somewhere in between.

[@michaelmichaelagnew8503]

F7A isn't a heavy fighter btw its a medium.

[@cdgonepotatoes4219]

​@@michaelmichaelagnew8503 yeah I flubbed that a bit, I was wrongly picturing what's actually the F8C while I wrote this. Well it doesn't have a front-back shield or a gunner turret but I suppose if the strategy works on opponents that have a stronger nose and chase game then it will still take on heavies, just maybe take more time (or not if the turret fails to put pressure and the wolf pack feels safe enough to make slower passes).

[@valkoharja]

This is what I like to see. The disciplined, logical approach you have is a joy to watch. Respect.

[@cyrusaverell3494]

Seems like the dynamic changes a bit going from 3v3 or 4v4 to 8v8. The available DPS and flexibility that can be focused on one target is huge. Edit: just got to the end of the video. I see A1 covers all of this.

[@Avenger__One]

I know right, more players make a big difference!

[@JourneymanJohn]

Good testing. I think you're right on with being able to stay more focused and balled up in a smaller. Would have been cool to help with a 6v6 test but I think the conclusion is pretty accurate as is. Nice work.

[@hellgeist_]

"What do you think?" I think your team should do this to Vergil Shadow Moses - the loud streamer who is on a mission to convince everybody that Hornet is king, and that you are flat wrong about everything.

[@665Jan83]

Yes i would like to see this. But i bet AV1 would set so much restrictions in his favor that this won't happen. And everything im seeing out in the verse: the the F7A is king in a natural environment. So far it is the think im interested in, the day to day PVP/Sealclubbing reality in the verse. This curated battels are nice entertainment but not more.

[@Ermz]

Great video. Thanks for the test. I'm a new player, starting with a Titan and it confused me how well my starter ship performed in dogfights until I learned about the interceptor designation and how it sustains energy fighting and selective engagement.

[@fracturedprism]

The Hamsandwich? Playing SC of all things? Holy moly

[@chimera7441]

Can people please at least listen to the review near the end of this rather short video before commenting? The tiktok brainrot is real.

[@OldKing_Red]

Yes and no it's 15 min of gameplay that's pretty boring for folks that weren't part of it. Maybe the review should have been before the fight.

[@chriskaradimos9394]

this is like top gun flight school , amazing video bro , you are really a pro.

[@Avenger__One]

Thanks for watching bro, much love!

[@MarcSterlingMusic]

M50 has always been a beast. I used to solo hammerheads back before MM

[@Orphican]

Lol that was exactly the problem

[@emperorurbi]

​@@Orphican you can still easy solo a npc hammerhead its even easier now. Pre mm you had Todo a relative tight circle around it, now you just stay 2km out and strafe up every once in a while to dodge incoming fire. MM fixed nothing and made flight kind of boring.

[@cygnus6623]

@@emperorurbipretty soon it won't. They will never get the shields to drop....as it should be.

[@TheNefariousFox]

@@emperorurbi , If they don't up the speeds and actually make it fun again, I'm not sure if Star Citizen has a long future. I'm not even sure if I can stomach playing anymore unless they fix the boring flight model.

[@Legion_Victrix]

Shows exactly what we did back in EVE Online when I was part of the Goonswarm. We had small cruiser ships but a shit ton of them.. it was simply impossible for the enemy orgs to fight back in most cases. This will happen in SC, trust me.

[@xsvforce3335]

Disregarding all the other detriments of master modes, the fact that what is most effective varies greatly on context is very promising. I mean, that’s the ideal: the meta is highly dependent on circumstances. For example, if I wanted to defend a transport, I would take a heavy hitter like the F7a so I can stand my ground. However, if I wanted to attack the transport’s escort, I would rather have an interceptor so I can get in and out.

[@TurgeonJimmy]

It's incredibly fun to watch serious team fights like that. I get goosebumps haha

[@D1vergentt]

Thank you, Avenger_one :D

[@chimera7441]

What was the final 3v3 result?

[@Avenger__One]

Hornets do well in the 3v3, but ounce it's 5v5 or more, m50s really start to dominate because the combined dps and pressure beats the hornets defense 😊

[@rhadiem]

M50, Hull-C, Reclaimer, Caterpillar

[@aetherling9162]

@@Avenger__One Do you stand by your tier list for 3v3? Or is your tier list retrospectively more true for larger scale skirmishes such as 5v5 or 6v6?

[@andrewkok3467]

Great video. This demonstrates one additional important issue, which is the godly implementation of power/energy/thrust. It's too arcade like. "Space invaders" game comes to mind. The game has a long way to go with combat parameters. Good to see that master modes didn't kill the flight model.

[@coviper0019]

Love to see there is always a new meta that works when CIG throws the nerf hammer down.

[@RogerValor]

I think this is an evolution. It is fine if the meta evolves around anchor points. I can imagine for example, that large ships might become an additional factor to gain space superiority pushing the fighter back into the main fight, after all, once an Interceptor swarm breaks, it is incredibly hard to bounce back. This is not unique to Star Citizen btw., I have seen this evolution already in other games.

[@matthewward2451]

Thank you very much for making this video.

[@auburn8833]

Knowing some of these lads, these teams, in terms of skill were very evenly matched, a good test A1 👍

[@KaybeCA]

Hmmm, seems to me like MM is balanced then since different ships perform differently under different scenarios. Dogfighters like Hornets are best at smaller engagements, whereas interceptors shine in larger group gameplay. This kinda emulates what USN aviators had to deal with in early WW2 where the Zeros could demolish USN fighters in turn fights, so the USN had to develop a tactic with paired fighters weaving around each other to counter the high turn rates of the Zeros. In this case, you used the tiny undergunned M50s as an example, but I'm sure this would also apply to Buccaneers as well. Note that in organic PVP between orgs, those fights will not always be big furballs with dozens of fighters on each side. Sometimes, it'll be small engagements that are 1v1 or 2v2. Btw, do interceptors hit those crazy boost speeds in atmosphere as well?

[@0Metatron]

Hornets are not dogfighters. They die in a 1v1 vs a glad. They are team fighting brawlers. DPS only, no manuverability

[@Acers2K]

any video that switches the pilots? same team but just exchange in ships.

[@Avenger__One]

We did this, but I will upload more to show proof.

[@shonen84]

Great video! PvP is gonna be scary once 1.0 comes along with groups like yours xD

[@randomalien]

Good to see some testing at different group sizes, really shows the variety depending on scale, curious if turrets could be able to keep up

[@Fade5048]

How about testing with a lobby comprised of the top 100 players

[@Avenger__One]

These guys ARE TOP 100!!!!!

[@518UN4]

Ok so your 3v3 Tierlist was wrong when you have to change the whole scenario to somehow be right in the end or am I mistaken?

[@Avenger__One]

yes I was wrong about 3v3 correct, but thats why we test

[@HandsUpPantsOff]

@@Avenger__OneI’ll be completely honest: I have nothing but respect for you. You listened to the feedback and, instead of taking it as a personal attack, you looked for any valid points in the criticism. You put in the effort to test it, owned your results and recalibrated your statement. Very impressive in this day and age! Getting into SC, you were the first educational PvPer I stuck with. I learned a lot from your vids and community, but after MM the Avenger Squadron tier lists just haven’t been resonating with me or the combat situations I actually encounter while in the PU as a mostly solo/duo player. I only recently found Vergil this holiday season and his list made a lot of sense in this regard. The differences only highlight the situational importance MM tunings have exaggerated, as well as how important tier lists context is. They can genuinely affect people’s pledge choices and enjoyment

[@driftnut666]

Still so much work to be done from CIG Devs, nice work m8 hope they give you a paid gig to help them as a consultant

[@DavkisWincott]

you should have a match with vergil best bs your best. vergil will be f7a hornet mk2 while you guys have m50. id like to see this match up

[@CyberneticArgumentCreator]

Virgil thinks the A1 Spirit is one of the peak PvP ships in 4.0. Not sure he is qualified to represent any model.

[@DavkisWincott]

@@CyberneticArgumentCreator thats fine if thats what you think but accept the guys challenge. cause at this point doesnt matter what you say. he has attacked avenger with sm but avenger doesnt respond. i am posting here cause i want to see what happens againts a real competitor. not to bash on him

[@ndgreene337]

At this point Id really like to see it. He claims that there is an easy knowlege check to keeping the f7As in formation and that if they can do it then the M50s stand no chance. but he has yet to demonstrate this. They need to link up and demo this. A1 please reach out and see if someone with his confidence can do it.

[@DavkisWincott]

@@ndgreene337 this is a question i have as well. from an FC perspective i would like to know the judgments and shot calls he would make when vsing someone like vergil and shadow moses.

[@Clammymango]

unfortunately SM doesn't treat AVS with any kind of respect so this is unlikely to happen. I would like to see relationships repaired but given the escalation of things in the past i dont see this as very likely in the near future either.

[@modusponen1447]

I think I'm in the wrong org. They keep telling us to stay in a ball, I can't even see those guys and they require we use a Gladius.

[@Clammymango]

gladius largely fills the same role as the hornet, its essentially a brawler. does a little better than the hornets against interceptors cause its a bit faster but if it gets separated itll get picked a part by a faster ship

[@RunsaberSR]

PREACH THE GOSPEL OF SPEED! 🙏

[@Pusher_117]

This was cool to see on stream and again on here. really shows how numbers change the name of the game. In all fairness though, your tierlist was specifically for 3v3 which you mentioned here works very differently than 6v6+, so they werent wrong about your tier list specifically

[@Avenger__One]

True! but thats why we test things, to find the truth

[@The-Wraiths]

@@Avenger__One you didn't test anything to find truth. Your list for 3v3 was just flat out wrong so you changed the name of the game so you didn't look bad. How about testing your 3v3 list against the people who criticized it, in an actual 3v3? Why not take on the haters directly and show how your list, teammates, and skill are just simply better? We all know why . . .

[@GFOBigLebowski1]

@@The-Wraiths he wont ... he will combat log IRL and go radio silent.

[@SultanDesync]

This style of fighting makes open squad battle lobbies so bad. And that's ok. It shows where the flight mechanics are weak and need work.

[@Avenger__One]

I mean that is the point of testing

[@FrozenKnight21]

Sorry, but I don't trust testing performed by the A1 team, it seems they have a habbit of downplaying ships they like and don't want nerfed, while upselling ships they don't like to make them sound more OP than they are. All while calling it a skill issue if you disagree with their results. If you watch which are chosen for what you will quickly see that real stats differ greatly from what is presented. (Examples being which ships are used by actual PvPers, pirates, and destroyed/abandoned in known PvP hotspots.) But A1 will keep making videos to atempt to convince us that he is right, even after extensive testing proves him wrong.

[@StoneCoolds]

finally someo proved it to the world, hit and run tactics in razors, m50s, furies are devastating, i been using razors like this for a long time, but people dont understand the tactical advantage in large engagements for those little guys, swarms are devastating, and team cordination is key

[@joshua41175]

Avenger really pulled a Linus with this one it seems.

[@ro-mon_gerrs_u-tube1944]

Great Fighting. Makes me wonder what a mixed bag of 4+4 vs 4+4 or even a 2, 4, 2 mix ! 2 heavies 2 lights 4 interceptors or any mixed bag ? or a 2 z bag of 8?

[@temushin]

I'm curious to know if having a mix of ships provides any advantage. Would having a retaliator or paladin in the mix with the hornets make the ball defensible?

[@zeiphie]

I'm kinda curious how the calculus of the fight would change if you incorporated different ratios of ships in the teams or even different ship classes like heavy fighters etc.

[@dereksherwood3794]

Do the two man turreted hornets do any better? Does having a human operated top turret provide effective deterrence to swarm tactics?

[@lordfraybin]

A tactical view, like DCS has... would be super cool.

[@Avenger__One]

Ughhh my gosh if only

[@chorkydorky2187]

and with that ima come back to star citizen......the nerfs on the m50 is what made me stop playing back in the day

[@olmecultra6588]

Interesting that you don't try to stay together with elements or wingman like in modern aerial warfare. Calling a target and having everyone pressure it has the side benefit of keeping you all from getting spread out too much. The target because a mobile rallying point, the target caller just needs to keep on selecting new targets. Do you mark targets with the in game system for your team? How do people locate the new target so quickly?

[@Coldsealion]

There's no good way to mark out targets for a team, and even the pin feature for individual pilots doesn't track people if you lose lock, which happens all the time. Pilots just have to find the name and then visually track the target when out of range or through chaff. It helps that the hornets are trying to stay close. I've also found looking at my teammates and where they're pointing or shooting helpful in these situations.

[@Chili-Lochnagar]

Today on an AC match got ripped to pieces by m50s in a gladius using these tactics so yea I get this once the numbers go even higher the blob can be overcome

[@scottyrye]

What does 8x M50s look like vs a Hammerhead with 8 crew vs 8x F7A. Maybe CIG is actually hitting the mark with this? I have said it before and I'll say it again: Games are best when balanced for the elite players, then accommodations (read intermediate tools for newbs to learn the game) are introduced. CIG should be watching your videos and keeping it in mind. Not all ships need to be equal in the hands of elite players, but they need to KNOW what the elites are capable of and set that as an 'end game' goal for players to 'level up to' in real life skills, or they will absolutely wreck their games longevity. What happens when we bring Heavy fighters in?

[@Baltazar009]

Military special ships beaten by racing ships, yep that sums MM well i guess.

[@Anonymous-i1b3b]

Exactly

[@EeroafHeurlin]

Medium fighters are not "special ships", they're the epitome of "jack of all trades, master of none". Also in 3v3 and below Hornets win. It's all about how you use the tools and in what situations. M50 is used in racing because it has that interceptor speed.

[@Yurikan]

It definitely is worth it getting good in the m50. The devs seem like they are 100% focused on PvE content and trying to balance it like a single player game. Multi-player is a different ballpark.

[@eddahildr8647]

I would say balancing each ship like if they were equally good in the same hand would be a single pvp balancing rather than a group pvp balancing. It's perfectly fine M7A group get wrecked by m50 group. You now just need to make a third group to wreck the hell out of the m50. Could be large ship totally immune to small size weapon, dealing enough dmg to m50 but kot enough to f7, or thing like that. Or whatever. You know like a paper rock scissor game. If you make a group of rock and another of paper, yeah, the game is shit.

[@SJCOFFIClAL]

Yeah and it’s kind of a waste of time to fully balance things until all the systems are in place.

[@Yurikan]

@eddahildr8647 People in the SC community keep talking about paper rock scissors when this is playing 3d chess. Any ship is going to be able to kill another ship of any type. Dog fighting is pawn vs pawn, but a rook can come literally out of no where and take out the pawn if it wanted. That example would be someone just lancing in a Connie Taurus. The issue is cutting the speed turned everything into a pawn, so instead of having dynamic fights we got a WWE wrestling ring ruled by specifically who is lighter weight, since all other strategies were thrown out the window.

[@Yukanag]

How often do you engage in these types of fights? i would love to be another boddy in fleet engagements like this.

[@Avenger__One]

It happens more than you think

[@tonygonzalez8200]

The thought of pirates at this skill level really lowers the appeal of checking out Pyro. My only chance of survival would be trying to QT to safety before my ship is disabled.

[@Kim-ug4fy]

It's still very rare to run into trained pilots out there, so i wouldn't worry too much unless you're actively going twoards some kind of pvp event like jump town, and if that's still a problem, well, just get better at pvp so you have better odds lmao.

[@tonygonzalez8200]

@@Kim-ug4fy I'm a pacifist in SC, which is the main reason I haven't ventured to Pyro yet. I prefer pvp spectating over engaging. Mining and exploration is my favorite "loop", if you can call it that. My Mole has the weapons removed and I don't even have weapons fire keybinds mapped to my joysticks.

[@SJCOFFIClAL]

@@tonygonzalez8200lol nice

[@PursauntYapper]

@@tonygonzalez8200 the biggest advice I can give you is go and explore it is beautiful and much to see. Avoid the most popular outposts and mission areas and you will be mostly safe (as safe as Stanton imo). Be aware, be prepared and have a plan, that plan is mostly gtfo asap as soon as you see something sketchy. Ping is your friend use it constantly and you will detect ships sooner. o7

[@EeroafHeurlin]

It's not *that* common to run into hostile players if you stay away from the popular outposts (those with landing services, or those with particularly good trades).

[@thx1137]

While extremely useful, these videos are basically about furballs and not mission oriented engagements which can be very different in their execution because then it isn't simply "kill all the ships". The way CIG wants it to work, and me as well. Is that I wouldn't be in this situation because I should know that I also need interceptors to counter your interceptors so our heavier ships can assault their own prey. What this video shows is what I *expect* in this particular scenario if everything is working as designed. BUT. Whether the scenario CIG and I want will work in an MMO where many if not most people don't want to team up and even if they do, be properly coordinated to be effective is a very different question. I expect the vast majority don't. To me, that's the big problem. It is an issue with understanding the different types of missions and gameplay and their tradeoffs. Using low-skilled or casuals is totally feasible in most battles, even in a more properly fleet oriented engagement so there is a role for those that do *as they are asked* so not everyone requires hours of tactical and flight training. So people need not fear that *it takes too much effort to be good* if you find the right team. I find that that's a big part of the fun. Getting the best out of the team no matter their skill level.

[@grunniabsintminded8096]

Hey A1 what do u think about about the F7C MK I Ghost as competitor. (with ballmount for 2xS2, fully equipped with ardors) Small Signature, ok-ish turnrates, ok-ish loadout

[@El1qt]

Didn’t shadow Moses beat you in AC? Also not quite sure why you didnt just fight shadow Moses since that was main opposition to your tier list

[@Avenger__One]

So AC, you have wrenches, and respwns, both of which is not in the PU. We shot down vergil and 2 of his wingman even then. They claimed victory since the AC match went to them, but they left out the fact, they had more deaths than we did in M50s, they just farmed the rookies on the team who arent with us. SM pushes alot of popaganda out claiming victory, the main reason why I don't associate with them is there massive lack of respect and general troll behavior. I don't care how good they claim they are, they are just a gang of hyper haters. There are ALOT of top pilots in many other teams, I don't have time too feed content into ppl like Vergil and so I ignore him like BuzzCutPhysco, I consider them in the same vein of low quality haters.

[@El1qt]

@@Avenger__One fair. I guess the validity of each of your own tierlists will come will time

[@ndgreene337]

@@Avenger__One I think that's fair. But through everything I've seen. you are one of the few (star citizen) content creators that I consider to actually act like an adult. you elevate everyone around you and those you actually engage with. You would do wonders for the community if you set aside the shade, he and his community throw at you. and try to engage him as a fellow curious pvper. Maybe he farms drama off it, but maybe you build more bridges and make the community stronger. Virgil seems like a decent guy maybe surrounded by haters. but you engage him without judgement. maybe you change his mind about being a hate farmer and all of his followers follow suit. Thats the type of guy you have generally shown yourself to be. immune to disrespect and always willing to reach out to try and get better. Lead through action.

[@NoWitTwit]

Could you do the same in the Razor? Or is the m50 simply better?

[@Vioblight]

Hornets maneuverability nerfs make it bad against snubs. A gladius/sabre would likely win I’d assume. Great video! As someone just getting into the hornets for the first time, I’ll make sure to run for my life if there are m50’s

[@lavi5593]

Hitting those M50 with F7C seems to be a pain in the ass.

[@iskuter]

Protoss carrier interceptors were really hard to deal with if you dont target the carrier itself

[@brssnkl]

Does that windows connect disconnect sound happen a lot? I think you can remove it from OBS. Also probably it's a power issue, try an usb hub with external power (they usually have couple extra high power USB A ports)

[@paristeta5483]

X-wing vs Tie Fighter, but the Tie Fighter is finally superior in group setting.

[@highnoontycoon]

As long as ppl say nonsensical stuff and ppl who aren't good, don't play the game, or KEEP FORGETTING SPACE SIMU-F-N-LATION it will wobble back and forth until all engines, mechanics, And tech problems are created, refined, or tweaked.

[@Fuz2yman]

weeel i wouldnt call SC a simulation :) simulation implies simulating something that could exist in the real world ( at least according to the definition ) and SC is not really doing that. It's more of an arcade system for the sake of having ww2 dogfighting gameplay. In a simulation, you would never have dog fights in space heh. It would all be with missiles/torpedoes at very high speed over the course of hours/days. just being a nuesance i know...

[@MetatronsCube23]

They added g forces in a space sim because of all the smooth brains who couldn't handle 3d flight. Ver 2.76, and 3.0 had far better flight mechanics.

[@shawnritter4183]

It sounds like the M50 excels as a swarm fighter, I'm curious how a swarm of Furies would do in this type of situation?

[@shawnritter4183]

Just looking at the stats I think the Fury might be viable. F7A: SCM Speed 220 m/s, 0->SCM 1.865 s Roll/Pitch/Yaw 150/56/45 Fury: SCM Speed 238 m/s, 0->SCM 1.251 s Roll/Pitch/Yaw 215/65/65 M50: SCM Speed 280 m/s, 0->SCM 1.501 s Roll/Pitch/Yaw 200/55/55 Its got snappier maneuvering, and quicker acceleration with a higher top speed than the F7A, the M50 does have a higher top speed though.

[@Brian-us2xz]

What were the restrictions in these fights?

[@Avenger__One]

no nav mode due to interdiction

[@Brian-us2xz]

@Avenger__One My intent was not to stir drama, but how does the mantis survive the hornets? Most of our runs ends with the mantis getting nuked by missiles being rippled out to exhaust the counter measures.

[@ivdomo]

@@Brian-us2xz it doesn't. This is some fantasy version of the game that doesn't exist that was rigged to support a foregone conclusion. Deeply subjective and not scientific in the least

[@Otsdarva68]

Will you run this test against the gladius or talon? Or perhaps a more diverse set of fighters like you'd encounter in the PU?

[@quadro1337]

Do some buccaneers, 325a or titans vs f7a, this could be a whole series, with a 'league' table of fighters but with K/d ratio (or points for wins). Just kidding, do whatever you love to do. This is just so entertaining to watch man :D

[@MetatronsCube23]

325a or titan warlocks actually win all the time vs f7a. When we had the better flight model, a good pilot in a mustang could easily beat f7a via faster maneuver speeds and attrition.

[@MrArapahoe]

I’m just more interested in 2v2 3v3 because I feel as if that are my scenarios in the pu

[@Avenger__One]

than bring F7As and stay tight

[@01SHADOW]

Good now send this to cig so they can stop nerfing the damn hornet lol

[@zeroone01101]

haha, very cool. I luv watching so many damn (*&%€÷*) F7A Hornets turn into space debris. I know you really dont like Master Modes, but this is actually nice teamfighting imo. To bad we can see your teams markers very often. Would love to watch that from a spectator pov.

[@PursauntYapper]

@@zeroone01101 the markers is part of what makes it so damn hard for the hornets ships are constantly coming in and out of lock from all different directions, it is hard to focus down one ship or know when a pass is happening, the other team mates have to get lucky and clip one as it comes through on a bad pass

[@justnoct]

So when is AVS going to bring the M50s against SM and Vergil with the F7As?

[@Nianfur]

I have two M50's from the original sale. I probably can never use them effectively myself. But my nephew probably will be god tier in them.

[@-_Nuke_-]

Sorry for not having done my homework! What is "the ball"? :P

[@Zbikandy]

Why M50s vs Razor EX? On paper the EX is the same with a smaller signature.

[@Hamu94]

Can you test this in atmosphere?

[@frankjimenez5042]

This is current model. What are your thoughts of when armor hits? Do you believe it will make the use of mulitple types of ship better? Or is it just going to be bring the biggest guns available. I understand you are just trying to give info on the current model.. But would like to hear you opinion on the future, since you probably have more info than I.

[@xsvforce3335]

I would love to see an Avenger Squad M50s vs SM F7As in various squad numbers starting at 3 and going to 8. Avenger One got nothing to lose, all he did was make a tier list based on his perspective. Vergil would eat shit if he loses given his EXTREMELY critical video. I like both, don’t even know who I would root for. It would be fun to watch though. Better than any 2v2 tournament. Edit: we would have Vergil to thank for the fun though. We should remember that if it doesn’t go his way.

[@dontanton7775]

Does the game have no emp or smth like that to slow down an interceptor for a moment? What about missiles? How do they work in SC? Interesting video!

[@MetatronsCube23]

There are a few ships with EMP's, and most simply don't have access to them unless they bought the ship.

[@Eden_North]

Awesome video.

[@MILSPECMOM]

For what it's worth citizen I believed you. o7

[@Armabelico]

You called it, 100% agree on the MM problem, we want more speed and we want it to be skill rewarded not combinations of N ships like on RPG like strategies. They tied the wings and without the ability to flee there will be many, soo many eaten by both skilled and smart cats and thats not a gg. Hope they keep tweaking and improving on the very clear problems we've been seeing and suffering...good splashes :)

[@eddahildr8647]

It will always be like any mmo, numbers will always prevail on skill. Like in real life. SC alpha tester just forget about that because they always played with a handful of players on their server and never had any 200 vs 200 real battle. Also group skill is not less good, or easier/less valuable to train that solo skill. So there is no reason why solo skill should be more rewarded in a multiplayer game.

[@rhadiem]

Thanks A1

[@chikokishi7030]

What is the 'ball'?

[@PursauntYapper]

@@chikokishi7030 "death ball" the hornets are grouped up close together for protection and to allow each other to shoot at a target on a team mate. It is hard to see but the m50s were orbiting around and avoiding going through the centre of all the hornets

[@tikars8668]

With how missiles works in 4.0 , i usually keep distance and fire missiles . F7 shall fly backward and never chase m50 ,if they know control&mobility is less important with greater distance.

[@Uriel84Rankor]

Nice video, it put in light one of the main problems with CIG ship conception and balancing. The main problem nobody noticed is that 8 RACING ships can litteraly crush 8 MILITARY COMBAT fighter. This is a complete misconception of what balance should be. Regarding to the lore, to logic, to balance. CIG is all wrong on this.

[@filippobonni8377]

Avenger One & The Space Piranhas🔝

[@matheusmelo1368]

damn u killed the snake and showed the stick

[@Tbone-the-1nfinite]

What is this??? An actual good PvP spaceship game other than Eve??? I'm in shock. Let's hope the cry baby carebears don't ruin it

[@xsvforce3335]

Let me summarize this whole tier list debacle for those uninitiated. -Vergil releases tier list based on general combat effectiveness in any role or circumstance. It it was a well founded opinion from a highly experienced and capable player. -Avenger released a tier list based on a very different perspective. It was group fights described as 3V3 and GANG fights. -Vergil gathers his highly skilled friends to shit on Avenger’s tier list’s focus on interceptors by not giving Avenger’s perspective any credit. They even admitted to not even watching Avenger’s video. -Avenger releases this video showing how short sighted that was. -Many are crying in the comments. -the drama continues

[@Avenger__One]

Amen brother!

[@vaporsnake2123]

Ah yes cause 3v3's in Star Citizen happen all the time in totally organic and non-forced ways. Releasing a tier list for a mythical scenario that that has no practical use in 99.9% of gameplay is about as valuable to the SC community as doing a loadout vid for a Flying Unicorn.

[@El1qt]

Bro you know Shadow Moses beat them with hornets in arena commander😂 Not to mention A1 dodging the offer to fight them

[@Avenger__One]

lol more propaganda, we don't assiciate with trolls and hyper toxic folks like SM, we have been testing this with many other PVP orgs all too the same results

[@xsvforce3335]

@@vaporsnake2123 I can’t tell what side of the debate you’re on… The M50 likely loses in a coordinated 3v3. In chaos is where it shines. That would be your average PU encounter.

[@BugInJim]

Goon Swarm lives.

[@stratcat3216]

So... 3 seems to be a human mind limit in some ways. Like music. When you listen to music you can follow basically 3 different instruments/themes.. at one time. It's part of music writing and producing. must be the same with how many targets we can track optimally.

[@Avenger__One]

What an interesting observation 👏 I love this

[@Falenir]

The m50 is excruciating to take down with a zeus... ugghh like a fly

[@suspectorange]

Pioneer missiles are great at countering interceptors. Size 1 so you can carry a bunch on anything that can take a rack for S1's, very fast and agile, minimizing their reaction time, and proximity fuze decreases chances of near misses.

[@stirlinggreer]

To be fair I love the tier list now. It's very realistic.

[@DummyThinksThoughts]

They are never going to find a balance people like if they keep weapons on racing ships and intercepter tune them. Racing ships shouldn't have weapons plain and simple.

[@Under_Rated-aka-Nixco]

Learn the lore of the M50, its an Interceptor, the best actually.

[@xsvforce3335]

First it was MM too slow. Now it’s, fast ship bad. You all need to touch grass.

[@DummyThinksThoughts]

@xsvforce3335 mm is too slow and fast ship is good . But you cannot make racing ships as fast as they should be and give them weapons that allow them to unbalance the game . I know people with no brain wrinkles cannot hold 2 thoughts at once but some of us aren't handicapped

[@ViktorKahn]

What ship is the king in atmosphere?

[@imobius_1i98]

Vandul King Ship

[@ny5093]

Fury by a mile.

[@Avenger__One]

Fury

[@eddahildr8647]

I don't feel like all ships should behave like this. Just make the m50 kind of ships innefective against bugger threat, and then create a nice traingle ( or square, or whatever) of balance with interceptor good against med fight good against heavy fight good against big ship. You don't even have to have the circle close if you make the smallest innefective against big one, since group will need to balance their rank to face all composition. You like interceptor gameplay, it doesn't mean all should feel the same way. Just that you are an interceptor pilot. Dogfighting is really the most arcadey (really, even irl dogfighting doesn't exist anymore, as it's totally ineffective) thing in star citizen and not everyone like/want that king of pvp.

[@Anonymous-i1b3b]

Yep it was because those ww2 planes were slow enough to create this dog fight for space this makes no sense.

[@informedchoice2249]

What tactics could the Hornets use to counteract the M50 tactics here?

[@BrokenSilenceMD]

Nice Video.

[@Sephiroth1550]

Now they are gonna nerf their speed

[@thehalfrican9468]

I liked the part where the teams swapped ships

[@Avenger__One]

if you watched till the end I adress this, these fights where to show whats happening, but you would have heard that if you watched it wouldnt you.

[@thehalfrican9468]

@@Avenger__One I watched the first fight in its entirety then scrubbed through the rest of the video to see the side swap to compare the difference. I did not have time to watch the entire video hence the comment I left

[@williamhastings6675]

First of all, an M50 shouldn't have guns at all. When it comes to other "snub' fighters, they should be limited to size 1 guns and pretty much insta-pop if hit with anything bigger than a size 1 gun. In other words, they should really only be good against other snub fighters, or WTFBBQing people attempting to board your ship. If your intent was to demonstrate that the game is busted and makes no sense, you did a good job.

[@Anonymous-i1b3b]

This

[@DakkaDakka12]

First of all the m50 is a police interceptor in the lore as well as a racer so it most definitely should have guns. 2ndly the m50 has very low firepower and relies on having good time on target to kill it’s opponents thats why it performs best in large fights where multiple low damage ships can combine their firepower on one target. M50 is not overpowered in any way, the hornet is much more overpowered because it wins with very little skill required due to its ridiculous firepower.