Things You Never Hear Said About Elder Qualifications - A Plea for Consistency

[@1Word2218]

As a former elder, I know that most of them have a sincere desire to serve the church. However, we have turned the church in America into a business rather than a fellowship/family of saints and this has led to elders spending their time being business administrators and managers rather than spiritual shepherds. The role of elders in far too many of our churches serves the function of rules enforcer, business decision maker and judge/jury for disputes. They should be mentors, caretakers, counselors, servants. We need HOLY and SPIRITUAL men as elders, not good business managers. The church in America has been in decline for over 60 years and the pace of decline is increasing. Until we restore our shepherds in the church to the Biblical guidance, I fear our churches will continue to dwindle. Thanks for being willing to call out this very important topic.

[@revolutionofordinaries]

Yes times 1000. Thank you for saying this. And this doesn’t demonize anyone just for saying what is going on. People are doing exactly what they were expected to do and modeled to do.

[@survivabill5206]

Once had an elder defend his intimidating unapproachable attitude with, "I'm a businessman and in the business world, sometimes you have to intimidate folks to get things done." SMH...

[@happy1feather449]

I agree with you. I know a current elder who cheated on his wife ! Who is a good businessman but far from blamless. Shame on Man for ruining the Church

[@robertbarker9573]

Very beneficial

[@revolutionofordinaries]

God bless you and thank you for watching!

[@resident9011]

thank you for this teaching very much needed

[@revolutionofordinaries]

You are very welcome!

[@waltermartinez6161]

Thank you for sharing. I thought I was ready to lead a home fellowship but this video made me look at my own life and point out my shortfalls.

[@revolutionofordinaries]

It is important to be dis evening about this. However not all churches start with qualified elders.

[@wendellhoward884]

Interesting looking back how critical and condemning we were of denominations with written creeds. Lessons like yours show how many oral traditions (creeds) we hold so tightly today. I guess if we don’t write them down we don’t fall under the same condemnation?!?!?! Thank you for addressing our golden calves.

[@revolutionofordinaries]

You are so right...we just don't formalize them but we certainly do practice them by and large!

[@restsimply]

Thanks for this Matt.

[@revolutionofordinaries]

Hey Bruce! Thank you!

[@walterlahaye2128]

I trust you know and understand the marriage part as l do. However, you made it crystal clear on all other qualifications, including his desire for that position for all the biblical reasons necessary!

[@dwighthaas1771]

Often times getting elders has to do with the current elders looking at the checklist and not at the clock, as it its time, or the church numbers, as in we need more elders to match the people and the current eldership being comfortable with having fellow elders that may nor agree on all things or with the preacher/elder, because it breaks the status quo.

[@revolutionofordinaries]

Too true. Even the things that spark transition can show the priorities and processes are not biblically aligned. Good point.

[@paul-hn7ck]

PRAISE THE LORD......MATT.......THATS RIGHT.........GETTING IN BUT STAYING IN........SOUNDS LIKE ROMANS THAT IM IN ALL SUMMER PAUL JOHN OTTAWA

[@walterlahaye2128]

You cannot change Jesus and the Word of God to fit you! You gotta change you to fit Jesus’s style! THE BIBLE IS ITS OWN BEST COMMENTARY! God’s Word is Perfect, and you cannot improve on Perfection!!

[@revolutionofordinaries]

Amen to that!

[@ronnym1977]

Two things I have noticed that get done with the selection process of Elders that aren't in the Ancient Text. 1. Hospitable/Given to hospitality gets translated to: "Must have and invite people to their home" 2. Paul never charges the congregates/local body/church, or whatever one wishes to refer to it as, to be a commitee to appoint Elders, never.

[@revolutionofordinaries]

Those are both great points Ronnie. The evangelists/apostles appointed elders. We won’t do that today because it messes with the business culture of hierarchies in our system.

[@ronnym1977]

@@revolutionofordinaries Good observations Matt. I wasn't aware the appointement process had become so business like. It's a sad state.

[@colepriceguitar1153]

Hey Matt, I'm an 18 year old guy who grew up in an anti church and still am in the same church. I want to do something involving ministry but don't want to have to do this individually and there is another church up the road that gives me opportunity to do this but I don't want leave the church i have been in since I was two. I don't want to cause division but i don't feel like I'm in a community since there's hardly anyone my age and we don't do much outside of Worship service and Bible Study together. I think my parents (especially Mom) want this to but we don't want to cause division. I actually cried over this because my siblings are gone so I feel alone in the church right now and my conscience is screaming at me for not doing something for God. I feel trapped, do you have any advice?

[@revolutionofordinaries]

Sorry I missed this...we were out on Spring break! I think you need to spend some time in prayer asking God to make the path clear...to open and shut the doors and commit to being faithful to God's leading on this. That's what I would be doing, fwiw. It is hard to step away from all you know...it is a wilderness experience that can take years...just make sure to not give up your foundations of faith.

[@shamariopatterson1206]

Amen

[@revolutionofordinaries]

Thank you brother! God bless you and have a great week.

[@dagwould]

I grew up in a non-conformist church; one of our elders was certainly hospitable, his family was wonderful in that respect. His kids grew up in the church, but left both home and church as soon as possible: I get the impression that the elder and his wife spent too little time with their kids. Another elder in another church took his role seriously, and resigned because his kids were quite thuggish. Nice enough one to one, but 'lost' in a social sense. Now in my church the 'elders' are the paid guys: the senior minister...In all my decades in an episcopal church only one 'elder' (so-called priest) offered wife and I hospitality. So, generally, not hospitable at all! Sad indictment.

[@revolutionofordinaries]

I have seen similar things where people who had been in a church for a decade had never had a conversation with many of the elders.

[@soteriology400]

There is a difference between overseer/bishop and elder. An elder has to do with maturity. An overseer is one who oversees an area of believers over a period of time. If we get these terms confused, then it creates a lot of confusion with church history.

[@revolutionofordinaries]

They may be the same person described in two ways, "The most probable explanation of the difference of names is that “elder” refers mainly to the person, and “bishop” to the office; the name “elder” emphasizes what he is, while “bishop,” that is “overseer,” emphasizes what the elder or presbyter does. See Bishop; Church Government; Ministry. A. C. Grant" - The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Volumes 1-5, p 924 "“Elder” and “bishop,” then, are synonymous, but whereas “elder” indicates the great dignity surrounding this office, “bishop” signifies its function of rule or oversight. In the New Testament oversight is especially related to the figure of the shepherd, who feeds and cares for his flock." - The Biblical Foundations of Christian Worship (Library of Christian Worship: Volume 1), p 172 "Everywhere in the New Testament bishop and presbyter are titles given to one and the same officer of the Christian church. He who is called presbyter or elder on account of his age or gravity is also called bishop or overseer with reference to the duty that lay upon him (Titus 1:5-7; Acts 20:17-28; Phil. 1:1)." - Easton’s Bible Dictionary, p 217

[@soteriology400]

@@revolutionofordinaries In 1 Tim. 3:1, the Greek "episkopēs" is used referring to office. In 1 Tim. 3:2 the Greek "episkopon" is used, actually referring to the role of overseer. In 2 Tim. 5:17. the Greek "presbuteroi" is used referring to elder. Many make the same mistake, confusing the three, when there are separate Greek words for each. They are not the same. The Greek "episkopēs" can be used referring to say 'office of president' or 'office of management' etc.

[@revolutionofordinaries]

"And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed." - Acts 14:23 Ordained them elders...not bishops. "Now as an elder myself and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as one who shares in the glory to be revealed, I exhort the elders among you 2 to tend the flock of God that is in your charge, exercising the oversight" - 1 Peter 5:1-2 Elders have oversight. The terms seem to be basically about the same thing depending on the context. The words can mean different things in different passages based on context, just like any other word(s). "ELDER Translates the Greek presbutero;s the equivalent of a bishop (Greek, episkopos, “overseer”)." - Dictionary of Theological Terms, p 144 "Lightfoot (Philippians, pp. 96 f.) summarizes the NT evidences for the identity of the terms as follows: (1) In Phil 1:1, Paul salutes the “bishops and deacons,” and it seems incredible that he would omit the second order (viz., elders) if it was distinct, as elders formed the staple of the ministry of a NT church; (2) in Acts 20:17, Paul summoned the “elders” of Ephesus to Miletus, yet addressed them as “bishops” (Acts 20:28, ASV); (3) Peter appealed to the “elders” to fulfill the office of bishops (1 Pet 5:1-2); (4) Paul described the qualifications for the office of a “bishop” (1 Tim 3:1-7) followed by a “deacon” (1 Tim 3:8-13), yet in 1 Tim 5:17-19 he calls these ministers “elders”; (5) yet more plainly in Tit 1:5 the apostle speaks of “elders,” then of a “bishop” (Tit 1:7)." Dunnett, W. M. (1975). Bishop. In C. F. Pfeiffer, H. F. Vos, & J. Rea (Eds.), The Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia. Moody Press. Here you have elders referred (Acts 20:17) referred to as bishops (Acts 20:28). Interchangeable in this passage. I think the evidence stands against your position...just my opinion.

[@soteriology400]

@@revolutionofordinaries Peter was simply asking the elders (maturity) in the 5 churches to shepherd and exercise oversight. It would be like someone asking you to look over your family, addressing you as say, a father.

[@numbers22_28]

I think what I find a problem with your presentations is at times what is said and at others what is not said. Most of your points in this presentation are valid but… What is not emphasized from my experience as a member of the church of Christ since 1986, is that there are MANY churches with Elders who are what they should be and many congregations that select Elders with great care. True that exceptions occur. I have been a member of 6, I think, local churches; every one of which I left. because of job changes. I have not seen 1 Elder that was not of great godly character and fully qualified. (2 of those churches had no Elders because they were so small they could not find qualified men in the "ranks".) One of those churches that did not have Elders finally did find men worthy and qualified, but turned down two men when I was there because some thought one man was not qualified (though I was certain he was). I think you would do well to qualify your own statements with a fair and balanced approach. You could be a better representative of the church you claim to represent if you admonished when you need to while giving honor to those who deserve honor. If you haven't seen any worth honor, I am surprised. I have seen many. 1 Timothy 5:17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine.

[@revolutionofordinaries]

Did you watch the video from beginning to end? If you are going to offer your feedback I would like to know if you watched it all.

[@numbers22_28]

@@revolutionofordinaries Your favorite question. Yes I did. And you made a quick mention in the positive about Elders. The direction of your videos is in the negative toward the church or a down right misrepresintation of truth. Sure there are problems but I just dont see you as an advocate but one who seems bent on tearing down His church.

[@revolutionofordinaries]

Glad you did and glad you noticed that I mentioned that because it was important to me to say that. If I want to talk about the problem of child abuse in the Christian home, do I need to first spend 30 minutes talking about how most parents don't do that? It makes no sense...as bad as maybe you would want that...it doesn't make sense from a practical or rational perspective.

[@numbers22_28]

@@revolutionofordinaries No, you don't have to spend time every time talking about the positive side. This video was not one of your most egregious. I am seeing though that from your view, the church is just one big problem. I believe the church is a great force for good in the world. My experience has been very positive, yours seems to be not positive at all from your videos on the whole.

[@numbers22_28]

@Liam Perhaps you have not listened to other "Wineskins" presentations. This one is not as egregious as others have been. One recent one equated any denomination as being on equal footing as the Lord's church when denominations have no standing before the Lord at all! On their best day they give slight nod to the church they claim to represent. I see instead, a pattern more along the lines that Peter described when he warned on falsehoods of Balaam, 2 Peter.

[@resident9011]

what book are you reading from your not speaking the same words as my Bible you must realize when the Holy Ghost fell on the disciples they were all with one accord in prayer and suplication. with so many different books and so many different churches there is no way we can be in one accord nor speaking the same words we are all divided and this hurts every person in the world. may God forgive us all

[@revolutionofordinaries]

we don't have to speak the same exact words to be in one accord.

[@walterlahaye2128]

The Bible says that a Christian husband is to be the husband with beliving children. “The husband of one wife.” A divorced man does not qualify to be elder period! Not does an elder whose wife passes away, even if he remarries. The Bible strictly says that; “Husband of one wife.”

[@revolutionofordinaries]

You are presuming they are still married to their first wife. That’s saying “in God’s eyes they are still married.” If that is true then Jesus was wrong when he said that the man divorced her and married another. A lot of people disagree that the man did what Jesus said he did. Was Jesus wrong?

[@walterlahaye2128]

God says that an elder is to be the husband of one wife! HE doesn’t endorse eldership for any man after a divorce, nor after the death of his first spouse! It’s not rocket science!

[@allencunningham8605]

What about a single pastor who never married?

[@walterlahaye2128]

@@allencunningham8605 , Absolutely impossible! A “Pastor” is an “Elder.” You would have to be the husband of one wife to be an elder. Nice Try!

[@walterlahaye2128]

I compare your question to you asking: Why did the lifeguard go out in the ocean, was he learning how to swim, or, was it for sport? Stupid question by the way!