Thirds Tuning Talk (Diatonic E to E)

***notice***
an updated video exists with a better clean tone based on your reactions
link: • Re-Amping To Your Requ...
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I've fallen in love with this tuning! Sorry if this was too much music theory, but I'm hoping you all can see the possibilities and advantages to this bizarre tuning like I have.
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/ saidtoomuchproductions

[@flatfingertuning727]

I've been using a tuning which is based on thirds for the upper strings for years now, and posted a few videos of me playing it, but none of the videos where I've tried to explain it have been good enough to share. My tuning is G-D-d-f-g#-b (six strings, with the fifth string being the lowest), which is designed around the idea of playing a huge variety of movable densely-voiced chords on the upper four strings, using insanely simple shapes, and being able to add a bass note merely by extending the index finger. Swapping the fifth and sixth strings means that it's possible to strum a chord where some note on the D string is the root without having to mute the G string. On a chord where some note on the G string is the root, the D string will also be a note of the chord. When doing an arpeggiated or bass+strum pattern, I omit the D string from G-bass chords, but when strumming a full chord the D string is relatively harmless. If I wanted to extend the tuning for a conventionally-fretted eight-string guitar, I'd probably keep the upper six strings as they are, but add a couple of additional strings that would supply useful notes if played with the index finger. Perhaps a Bb and either a B or a BBb (octave down), though I'm not sure whether it would be better to voice them as bass strings or treble strings. Right now, the chord that I like least is probably Db major fretted as 6-6-6-8-9-9 or 6-x-6-8-9-9 [db-(Ab)-ab-db-f'-ab']. With a Bb seventh string, that could be x-3-x-x-3-3-5-6 (db-f-ab-db'-f'), and adding a BBb eighth string could add a super awesome richness. So my recommended tuning would probably end up as BBb-Bb-G-D-d-f-g#-b, with two nice pairs of octave-separated strings. If one were to list the strings in pitch order, they'd be BBb-D-G-Bb-d-f-g#-b, which would be close to a "thirds" tuning, with intervals M3-P4-m3-M3-m3-m3-m3, but I'd really suggest putting the top six strings in the order I use (not sure whether BBb would be better toward the middle or outside). If I knew a luthier who could build me a cheap experimental guitar (no reason to build a really good quality guitar if a concept turns out to be rubbish), I'd try having the frets on the seventh and eighth strings staggered by half a fret relative to the others, so that when barred with the other strings they could behave as either Bb or B depending upon whether the index finger was just above or just below the 7th and 8th string frets. That would make the strings useful with minor chords as well as major chords. Incidentally, a trick I've found useful with conventional humbuckers which might also work with active pickups is to place a piece of soft steel between the pole pieces of strings that I'd like to be picked up less. I use such mutes on the treble strings of my bridge pickup, so I can have very bright bass notes and much milder treble chords on top. I've also modded the guitar so as to allow tone balancing between the pickups.

[@whitaker_media]

Awesome idea and actually looks really practical. Gotta set one of mine up with this for sure

[@mal2ksc]

With major thirds, you only need 7 strings to get the E-E range. It's the Ralph Patt tuning. Also, the Harpejji has its strings tuned in 2nds like you were considering, AND it has frets. The main difference is HOW MANY strings, since it's designed to be played horizontally (but rotated 90 degrees compared to a steel guitar).

[@joshstarkey8883]

Depending on what kind of active electronics are in that guitar, you might be able to convert it to passive, or add an active/passive switch in a push/pull pot like a lot of basses have. You might also have some luck just by messing with eq. In black metal typically they boost the treble a bit so you can hear the details of chords over a heavy high gain rhythm sound and all the other noisy stuff in a black metal band. Great video, keep up the good work!

[@NukeClock]

This might even be more complicated, I have that exact problem Kevin has with the 8s git but with the 6s bass. Active or Passive, the low b delivers too much oomph for anything above the G to come through nicely, the low E is too boomy most of the times as well. Climbing up the neck the issue turns from a volume one to a soundscape one with chords coming out acknowledgeable but with the completely wrong timbre. The difference between the amplitudes of the 100+gauge and 36- is just too big to form the piano-like chord were looking for here through one signal path. My answer is vertical PU split, 2 output jack-os and 2 preamp paths. Comes with lotsa nifty advantages on the side but I imagine that being a most bullshit mod project without the right platform. I have the top and bottom 3 strings seperated from each other in while the Noll activated, everything through 1 output when going passive. Volume pot for both paths, Noll EQ soldered to the low strings path. In hindsight I wish I had ordered the split to be 4low 2high but how in the 9 hells would I have known that beforehand.

[@SaidTooMuchProductions]

I have thought of a pickup configuration with 2 output channels separating low and high, I would probably just route it to a stereo jack where the mono one is

[@NukeClock]

@@SaidTooMuchProductions This would be the McGyver way. If youre thinking about drilling anyways, make sure to solder an extra vol.poti for the new output in between. Treble path then directly into a flat boost or EQ pedal with a good chunk of gain flowing, way before any kind of distortion or crunch though. Now you should be able to level in both paths on the fly. You can combine both signals again easily but why would you now that youre set for conquering ? I run the passive and active-low output into my bass rig, the active-high output into a guitar rig, including effect bullshittery and whathaveyou. Solid state amps like to come with 2 front inputs as well. Low effort method for me would be Low-output into CH1 amp & High-output into modeller preamp, into CH2 amp & both channels of course into seperate cabinets. Go nuts. PUs with build-in vertical split are a thing. Mine are Soapbars but this kind of stuff is more easily found in the world of basses, this aint rocket science though. If things get icky, make a few yourself and youd have content for weeks.

[@CorbenEdward]

lol deafhaven would love this

[@phunmaster2000]

worst guitar tone I've heard in my life XD but the tuning is really interesting, especially the melody over bass concept

[@cooper9287]

I agree. But that will change over time as he matures and his tastes change.

[@jery3385]

His tones aren't the greatest but he's creative.

[@phunmaster2000]

@@jery3385 for sure, some of the most interesting guitar related content on youtube,

[@jery3385]

@@phunmaster2000 well yeah,this amazing compared to questioning whether or not .013 gauges affect tone or if they hurt.

[@verandi3882]

This guy is like the mad scientist of guitar !!! That was awesome, there is a video of a guy who made some piano fret board markers all over the fret boad to make it easier to navigate the fretboard on each string , you might want to try that

[@karolsieradzki1833]

And I thought my guitar sounds bad. Anyhow, You helped me a lot. Thank you.

[@glowco.717]

This could be really great for jazz! Imagine how much easier it would be to navigate the complex chords in jazz with a tuning like this, not to mention what you could do with soloing

[@DragisaBoca]

Dude never stop doing this... This "geeking out" is totally my jam!

[@alm000]

Very inspiring, cool stuff Man, :)

[@peehandshihtzu]

Oh yes I do recal this one, the re-amped video really highlights the tunning in a "regal" way, while this one really highlights what can really be done with it in a practical context. :)

[@blahblahsen1142]

here's a concept ive used. ignore the lowest string, tune to drop C baritone 7, now take a 120 bass string and fill that lowest position. 7-string guitar and bass at the same time. and you can apply that to any tuning but higher than C means you need super light strings on the guitar plain strings and tuning down to like drop A means even a 145 for the low A is gonna be more like Flop-A. fanned fret might be better suited but ive never used fanned for this and i found Cc tuning works nicely. this works better for a 7 honestly because you can go from C all the way to E standard and that extra bass string does great. be aware on and 8, that anything higher than Bb is essentially uptuning on the last few high strings because the extended range means standard B plus a bass B would be a normal tension. so treat it like a normal 7-string and then add the low string. it's frustrating when you get like 5 strings on before realizing you cant tune a 9 to a high g without breaking it and you have just bough useless strings

[@SaidTooMuchProductions]

My 7 string is tuned e standard with a bass e on the 7th, I dropped both of them to d in "storm warning" experimental instrumental, I even dropped everything again to c in "a capella drums, adtr tribute" although it's quite a silly video, a normal drum version is free to download on my patreon though

[@eliasaltman4439]

I came up with a 6-string tuning a while ago that I think is pretty cool. I call it AE tuning since the strings are (low to high) AEAEAE. You might wanna check it out. It’s like drop A, but still not quite

[@stereoroid]

I've played about (on 6-string) with a tuning that alternates major and minor thirds. On 8-string it could be D F A C E G B D, or maybe with a Bb below the low D. Every two strings are a major fifth apart (major 3rd + minor 3rd). You can play major and minor chords with a barre, depending on where you put the root e.g. open FAC is F major, but if you barre the 3rd fret on the low D you get F minor instead. Barre 4 strings and you get the respective 7 chords. There are some exceptions, though., similar to what you showed with the odd B Dim chord in C Major. But it was a fun experiment I might try again.

[@jameshenry7286]

bruh that tone i cant even hear the notes :(

[@auroranamex5886]

Check out Russian 7 string guitar and Ralph Patt's stuff.

[@indigotheindieghost7214]

I can imagine making some kickass math Rock with this... :0

[@zekuel_u41]

I would love to see a complete minor 3rds tuning. I think it would be great for scale movement forwards backwards and just straight positions. I feel like it would go great with minor scales and pentatonic minor scales.

[@zekuel_u41]

I also feel like tuning starting with b would be great. You might need a 10 string guitar though.

[@andrewekstrom612]

With an 8 string guitar, you can take the F#, B, E, A, D, G, B, E tuning and go for something like, G, B, D, G (open G major) and D. F#, A, D (Open D Major). Better would be to tune the last 4 strings D, F, A, D for a D minor open tuning. If you play all those strings together, it it doesn't sound to bad. For the major open tunings, I'd go with 80, 62, 52, 38, 24, 18, 15, 11 gauge strings. This keeps the tension on all the strings about the same. Makes playing a lot easier too. Awesome stuff.

[@MrTwostring]

I've played with seconds and "full harp". The neat things is that if you tune, say to CDEF then fret a fifth up you get GABc, so the whole scale with four strings and one finger.

[@tylerbrandon7610]

It's a cool tuning. But FYI major-thirds tuning was introduced in 1964 by jazz-guitarist Ralph Patt. First on ,6 then, 7 and 8 string. To get the E-e of Spanish tuning.

[@ossifrage6828]

5ths tuning next please

[@Stretchwreckedem469]

You should definitely try to get your hands on some Fishman Fluence pickups if you want that tuning to be a mainstay, I think with the voicing options you would really dig the idea of still having active pickups while simultaneously being able to swap voices for said tuning.

[@necroblastomaband]

I tuned my agile 8 string in 4 sets of perfect 5ths and it ended up really cool. DADADADA. string gauges 9-80. Cool video, I'll have to experiment with this tuning.

[@CMM5300]

Interesting. I tried perfect fourths. I thought about trying 3rds... I want to tune one with like b,e, b,e b,e 3 octaves. Just for practicing 3 octaves. Any symmetrical shape would sound great. It would be a good way to make practice fun.

[@kenichijono7117]

Interesting ! Currently I have my 6string tuned C G D g c f , 5th tuning for lower strings and fourth tuning for the higher ones. I came up with this as I need low C and open G to play cello piece.

[@markkeneson6806]

You could also experiment with 8 string Steel guitar tunings. There a large number to choose from.

[@psychoboss3539]

Thanks kevin

[@JuveriSetila]

Try tuning fifts instead of fourths. It's like drop tuning, but dropping every string. So high e is still e b will become A G will become D D will become G A will become C E will become F (already lower than normal eight string) B will become A# F# will become D# C# will become G# (pretty fucking low)

[@SaidTooMuchProductions]

Maybe 6-string f to e lol, that g# would be below the subcontrabass

[@phunmaster2000]

try full tritone tuning! it'll give you a lot more range, example being B,F,B,F,B,F,B,F the top f being a half step higher than the usual e

[@SaidTooMuchProductions]

Just palm mute the full 8 strings for a breakdown lol

[@phunmaster2000]

@@SaidTooMuchProductions the other benefits are that scales are now fully symmetrical, and diminished licks stay in position. This is at the expense of everything being a bit more stretchy, but I'd like to see someone try it :p

[@DrumRoody]

Very inspirational

[@ruebene2223]

I really wanted to hear how this sounds with a clean tone. Would appreciated if you displayed both clean and distorted guitar tones in the future. Edit: Oh I think I understand. The active pickups don't allow you to get a clean sound because they're always adding distortion, right?

[@guitargirl6323]

No that isn't how active pickups work

[@avakinlifeuser6888]

Awesome vid.

[@whitaker_media]

Okay I've got to come back to this and chime in again. I think the most interesting thing about the diatonic thirds tuning theory, is the existence of the diminished triad, and how it can be manipulated to be across different sets of strings. Let's go back to the key of C for simplicity's sake. If "C" is the bass note, then the diminished triad falls on strings 5,4,3 -- kind of an odd placement actually in my opinion. But say we tune down to b-d-f-a-C-E-G-B, the diminished triad is actually on strings 8,7,6 -- giving us a way better incentive to "chug" the low stuff for some heavy metal. Finally, say we tune up to d-f-a-c-E-G-B-D -- the diminished triad disappears from our string set altogether! And we're left with all the really nice natural major & minor 7 chords. It may be well worth trying out all 7 variations of the diatonic thirds tuning, transposed to E of course, in order to discover where one's favorite placement, if at all, of the diminished triad is across the 8 strings.

[@SaidTooMuchProductions]

I love these ideas, maybe I should do a followup

[@flatfingertuning727]

I tune the top four strings of my guitar to minor thirds and find it extremely useful. It has two diminished triads, but also makes playing "normal" chords insanely easy. Major thirds tuning offers a wider compass, but barre chords really don't work. Triads in root/1st/2nd inversion starting on fret 5 would be 5-5-4-5, 5-4-5-5, or 5-6-6-5, respectively, and minor triads would be 5-4-4-5, 5-5-6-5, or 5-6-5-5; half of those chords would require having a string fretted below the fourth string. Using minor thirds tuning on the upper strings, the fingerings are 5-6-6-8, 5-5-7-8, or 5-7-8-8; for minor, 5-5-6-8, 5-6-8-8, or 5-7-7-8, all of which are very easy. Add a fifth string which is tuned an octave below the fourth and a sixth string which is a perfect fourth up from that, and all one will need to do to produce full sounding chords is extend the index finger. If one wants to do melodic riffs, the reduced range of the minor thirds is a bit of a negative, but it allows for some really cool effects such as 5-4-3-3 which plays g-a-b-d' with all notes sustained.

[@apikobalt]

Fifths tuning Try

[@jinataxia8285]

have you ever tried tuning a 7 String into a Maj13 chord? mine is currently in Open Fmaj13/A, really fun with a capo

[@cosimobaldi03]

So basically the thirds are (starting from E) maj min maj min min maj min. seems cool

[@louischappellholmes2708]

Nice

[@guitardev9399]

Thanks for the video. Just got a 7 string for tuning in major thirds - E Ab C E Ab C E using a standard 9-54 string set. Is the string set ok for this? Do you think the mix of major and minor thirds is better than straight up thirds? Definitely trying your tuning on an 8 string! Cheers!

[@SaidTooMuchProductions]

The string set sounds ok, i dont think they're gonna break or anything, that low e is gonna have the tension feel of an acoustic though, I like the mix because I can finger all the major minor triads with one finger, but I have to try the all major augmented sound too

[@guitardev9399]

@@SaidTooMuchProductions Thanks for the response. Looking forward to more of your videos!

[@ossifrage6828]

Hmmm i have an emg 81 on my american strat and its the clearest thing ive heard when distorted

[@zAvAvAz]

kool what scale length is this agile 8 string?

[@SaidTooMuchProductions]

27"

[@marianandnorbert]

the melodies you played sounds a lot like the the vibe I get from the deftones - ohms album which released just over a month ago, could it be they took inspiration from this video?

[@ossifrage6828]

how about for another tuning do like drop a and then below that on the 8th string it will have an A0 so like A0 A1 E2 A2 D3 G3 B2 E2 i think this would be interesting cause you would have the nasty drop A power chord than have something that sounds like a 10 string in the bass but you would have to get the intonation perfect so it wont be muddy

[@SaidTooMuchProductions]

Ya, I think the 27" scale is way too short for an A0, i do have something like that set up on my 7 string, drop D with a D1 on the lowest string

[@ossifrage6828]

@@SaidTooMuchProductions yeah that kind stuff i find interesting do you have a song you have wrote for it?

[@SaidTooMuchProductions]

Next week hopefully

[@ossifrage6828]

@@SaidTooMuchProductions do you have a discord or discord server if not i would help you set up a server

[@SaidTooMuchProductions]

No, I'm not really a gamer

[@mickeyrube6623]

Thank you for calling the lighter gauged string "the top 4" and not the bottom. I caught a popular bass playing youtuber call his fattest string "the top string" once. C'mon man, you're a BASS player. I won't name any names, but his name rhymes with Badam Meely.

[@cobalt._.27]

Mickey Rube, is it Glaucoma Goose?

[@timoteosworld320]

Did the scale length effect it?!?

[@amritjanardhanan]

I don’t anything about metal... where should I go?

[@SaidTooMuchProductions]

Theres a huge sub genre rabbit hole, but if you mean the modern fad super low tuned stuff in this video I'd recommend checking out the band After The Burial

[@dwellerinblack7816]

Anyone know a good tuner?

[@LorenLSwearingen]

What 8-string guitars do you recommend for the thirds tuning that you use? thanks

[@SaidTooMuchProductions]

Cant really think of any real bad ones, just probably pick something that's still at that 25.5" scale length or else the notes in the standard register will sound more twangy than normal. The Agile I'm using is a 27", so judge for yourself.

[@SaidTooMuchProductions]

Maybe skip active pickups so tighter interval chords sound clear too. The actives on my Agile were hard to work with.

[@LorenLSwearingen]

Said Too Much Productions - thank you very much!!

[@kirkwahmmet8406]

So it’s a mix of Major AND minor thirds

[@SaidTooMuchProductions]

Right, so I can hit all 7 notes and the octave of a particular key

[@kirkwahmmet8406]

Said Too Much Productions that’s pretty M O I S T my dude

[@danterako2974]

What brand is your 8-string

[@SaidTooMuchProductions]

Agile

[@stucknote]

Not good to demo chords in distortion sound

[@kenrdz3992]

Ion dissonance tuning.

[@LoreAccurateHusky]

I want to start off by saying I love this idea and wish to all fuck that I had a second 8 string to do this with. When I play I love to use a lot of unusual or extended chords which can require weird stretches or odd fingerings and play a melody over chords by moving around many of the higher notes/pitches as I play. Both of those techniques I use would benefit greatly from this tuning so I'm thankful for this. Unfortunately, I have advice for you and there is no way to phrase this nicely, so I'm just going to say that your guitar tone is absolute shit. You have no bottom end to your guitar, the drive/distortion is very brittle, and overall there is almost no clarity causing everything you play to sound like white noise. The issue with being able to hear all the complex chord shapes in this tuning has nothing to do with compression from your active pickups but the fact your tone sounds like artificial garbage from a shit guitar midi. If you want to be able to really hear those chords clearly you want to have something with more warmth and low end and less saturation so you don't sound like a prepubescent-buzzsaw.

[@rottenwatson8509]

Keep on topic bro its about the 8 string lol