This Is Fine... - Cathay vs Nurgle // Total War: WARHAMMER 3

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[@TruthIsToBlame]

I appreciate your caution in releasing potentially hazardous information. And respect your loyalty to sharing knowledge.

[@MrSkillcap]

I really don't think they should nerf it. It's an extremely high investment niche build that is only really good against blob factions that bring alot of heroes/SEM. It will be even harder to pull off in domination where there are fewer initial units and several points of interest to fight over. Maybe it isn't the worst thing in the world that vampire counts and nurgle have to adjust their builds a little bit against cathay.

[@UnreasonableOpinions]

The additional damage given costs you the same proportionate amount of extra gold in army selection, it's as fair as any other army composition that overspecialises in one aspect.

[@Matt-ln7lb]

I don't think the spell intensity thing is really a major issue. You're spending 1900 for the two compasses +600 for the two heroes. That's 2500 basically just for the magic recharge and spell intensity and a couple of casts of lightning/comet, on top of the cost of Zhao Ming. You could get a lot of units for that. The cannons got 1600 value in this game as well; some additional ranged units or even just more spears/jade warriors could very easily make up the difference in value compared to the extra damage on final trans. Cathay is one of the strongest factions in land battle regardless of things like this, though it is quite good for punishing single entity blobs.

[@Matt-ln7lb]

@@forrestmcgee7631 It's 1/5 of your army to less than double the damage of a spell cast by a lord that already costs you ~2200. with minimal value outside of that. IE: I don't think it's particularly "OP", as actual units will likely net similar or greater value.

[@Laucron]

​@@Matt-ln7lbNot really. Units can get shitty trades and end up accruing no value. Spells like final transmutation are a point and click adventure.

[@sleepylion9788]

I don't see how Chaos factions can't deal with this. Plague Drone Death Heads, Marauders Horsemen, Spirit Leech. You can either snipe the 2 casters or Wu Xing, which are very easy to snipe and just reduce the strength of that Final Trans subtaintially.

[@itscurrentyear3054]

Yeh exactly, you just gotta bring stuff to specifically counter this at the espense of leaving yourself weak to most of the other builds Cathay can bring. Perfectly balanced.

[@sleepylion9788]

Those units will.also be useful against other blob builds that Cathay can bring bruh

[@Tactical_Lich]

​@@itscurrentyear3054Don't forget that these specific units get countered by any missile units, so if Cathay didn't bring a spell intensity build, they'll be toast.

[@itscurrentyear3054]

​@@sleepylion9788 yeh Cathay tremble at the prospect of rot flies and horsemen

[@nicholasmoreno6358]

It's a good punish for Nurgle and Dwarf blobs, but I don't know how well the investment in intensity would work out against other races.

[@MisterFausto]

For dom is not really an option as a movile faction would win by capturing points. For Land Battles... it´s gonna be OP against not heavy shoting factions, but shoting factions can take the war drums and compasses. rock Paper scissors. And there is a little bit of cheese everywhere.

[@memedaddy6932]

The majority of the army cost was spend on units and spells aimed at punishing a blob. It punished a blob. It's not that this type of build can't be countered, it's just that it was brought into the situation it was designed towards.

[@mauromatheus8614]

I think there is a diference between something strong and something broken. For me this is just strong, you have to invest a lot to get this, at least as a first impression it feels just a strong option.

[@therealdoomsage]

Looks like that burst heal will only proc if he's in dragon form; check out the 'Enabled If:' qualifiers, it specifies flying units only.

[@anon2428]

Very impressive performance Dahv, especially against such a top player like Hadres. And I don't thing it's broken or anything. Sure that combo is potent, but there is plenty of equally strong combos in the game. Nice showcase.

[@darkomihajlovski3135]

the build only relly works on factions the need to blob like nurgle, faction that cathay already beats no problem so its more of way to disrespect your opponent then being super strong

[@odmloupi]

I like the spell intensity system, i think it should be more widely available across other factions. what i dont like is how MUCH winds of magic is available in game 3 (esp for cathay). it makes all the problems with healing so much worse

[@odmloupi]

in particular the power of darkness spell should increase spell intensity (and do more damage). so you pay for stronger spells with HP, very fitting for the lore of dhar

[@precipitousnix6099]

I'm very biased because I was advocating for Final Transmutation as a cornerstone tool for Cathay all the way back in 1.0, and I even used Zhao + double Alchemist against Nurgle starting back in 1.2 (I think?). But honestly? This IS fine. Fuck 5x SE builds with healing. Fuck unkillable hero blobs that drag out games. More factions need ways to invest in hard counters for that garbage, not fewer. Cathay is going to be OP in Land Battles this patch, and needs nerfs to be balanced in the mode, but this tech doesn't have anything to do with that IMO. The full 175% stack is a meme except against this one specific playstyle in 2 or 3 matchups (Nurgle and Counts, mostly). 130% or 145% is a lot more reasonable, and it would probably be meta if Cathay had access to meta direct damage spells for consistent value (e.g. Melkoth's, Spirit Leech), but with just Final Transmutation you still need to anticipate a big commitment from the enemy in order for it to be cost-effective. Nerf Yang Battle Harmony (almost untouched since 1.3, it's been over a year), remove the free +5 MD from Formation Attack (can you believe it used to be +9?) and suddenly your combined arms faction can no longer stat spam so hard that it becomes a top-tier melee blob faction. It really is that simple.

[@eliasjimenez461]

Too often I see goon squads, so it is good to see tech like this

[@spartan4243]

That build is illegal anyway,you cant take more than 4 SE in fruit rules

[@davidbanterford3216]

Im fine with it. What I like less is Cathay getting fast assault units like crowmen that screw with their identity as a more reserved, formation based army. If they keep adding new stuff like that to armies it tends to homogenise them

[@joshmilner4864]

I mean the only thing that changed is the war drum right? This was a build you could do and was showcased I'm pretty sure with Turin. Is what it is I'd rather the dragon change bug that's back is fixed then I worry about unit caps based on abilities. Also don't think this is tourney legal at all anyways?

[@joshramirez2049]

Def should not be messed with. It’s a very counterable build be a lot of armies. It’s just a wacky build. Unless it becomes the meta( which it won’t) leave it alone. For fun’s sake.

[@misterhyde408]

0:27 ayo wtf is this spell intensity 0_0

[@BloodyBobJr]

Seems like this build is a bit niche, in that it will do very good against certain factions. Any with good range and kiting ability could pick this army apart. But other factions be very difficult, like nurgle, khorne and vampire counts..maybe warriors and slaanesh, but those 2 can bring ranged like ton of horsemen and hellcannons for WoC. You can't really snipe iron dragon anymore with that item, use to be if you took a bad fight and got gooned your magic is gone. Now he can be used more risky and stay alive

[@ManagerKaffe]

😢😢

[@aaron9777]

Tbh nurgle and Vc blobs have been a real pain to deal with for a while now so I think this spell being this good with the right build is fine. You are having to take pretty much 3 things that have no killing power.

[@nickhannah7234]

As if Cathay ever had issue with countering those two factions

[@Manwu5]

Cathay for ever!

[@mrbd-zk4jk]

I think compasses should give yin harmony and i wish they could get more bound spells as you spend more winds of magic like skull canons of khorne getting ammo in melee

[@jackevnorman]

In tournaments, Fruit's 4SE limit makes that build impossible. On a related note, the heal is just the most gratuitous addition to Zhiao, and really was unnecessary, I hope CA at least half the healing.

[@xPureAndTheTaintedx]

Its cool and all, but not worth having all that dead gold in uslesss units.

[@R3GARnator]

This is ultimately just a build, anti-large could rip that back line. Your noob box formation has some major weaknesses; your opponent just wasn't prepared to counter it.

[@prismpyre7653]

never hard to tell from your preemptory pouting when you are going to lose a game

[@gsauwce5488]

To me it’s strong but fair

[@chewyhazerd3587]

I think this is fine cause this Final Transmutation cheese is hilarious, uses units no one cares about, has a lot of actual investment and risk. Its cooler than Nurgle’s double exalted hero, double soul grinder thats seen EVERY SINGLE GAME. Or just massive cost reductions then nerf

[@tmirred1945]

I dont think the drum should give mastery of the elemental winds maybe. Id rather say the problem are direct damage spells beeing as hard to avoid and counter as they are so if they are strong enough for value they are annoying to deal with similar to nets not having a direct counter effect. It could also be a solution to make master of elemental wind an aoe not a mapwide bonus, forcing sorcerer formations to stay together granting them a tactical limitation that way.

[@GameAnGrog]

It's a bit cheesey, but given the cost to make it work, and how it really only excels as a counter to goon squads, it's not so bad. You'd probably be handicapping yourself against an army without a lot of SEMs or characters.

[@GodwinCarpenter]

To be honest Cathay has been a horrible addition to land battles, continually op since release, I don't really like it that they get this little trick they can pull.

[@jacobstevenson1978]

You had to expose this just for some views.

[@Ankhtowe]

The build is illegal.