This is Game Changing - Beyond All Reason

I'm not sure how its going to go but I know it'll be fun while it lasts!
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[@Argonwolfproject]

I am SO HAPPY to see this air rework. Heck if I didn't know any better, I'd say most of these changes were lifted directly from my brain by a psychic. Seriously, I'd already made plans to include in my personal balance mod: - The slower aircraft movement speeds - The increase in laser/plasma damage to aircraft - The seaplanes being built in the T2 lab - The flamethrower dragon, though I'm fairly sure they got that one partially from me anyway via the dragon tweaks I so callously inflicted on several BW streams, or the screenshot of said tweaks I posted in the Discord screenshot channel It's fantastic to see air play finally become more dimensional and cerebral than "Step 1: Have more fighters, Step 2: Win with bombers". So now instead of T1 and T2 fighters, we have Multirole Fighters and Air Superiority Fighters, plus whatever those seaplane abominations would be categorized as (some kind of aerial riot/crowd control unit for cortex, and ultra-heavy interceptors for armada to use against dragons). Pretty much the only change I had in mind that the devs didn't also come up with is that I wanted to give the missile-firing gunships (Wasp and Hornet) the ability to fire at other aircraft, and that would've only been a fairly minor aspect of the whole picture. Way too many RTS games already treat air units as mere icing on the unit cake, relegated to support roles and unable to stand on their own in battle. Seeing BAR take such a big step away from that cliche is like an early Christmas present!!!

[@Dabordi]

The Argon seal of approval is definitely encouraging. Sadly I didn't catch the stream for this live but hoping the new changes landed as well as you'd hope.

[@empireofitalypsstimfromano5025]

Well The Support Role Is More Realistic For Air Since It Wins The War But It Can't Win It Alone

[@Texan190]

Like old school TA. I always liked how the fighters would engage ground units. It always helped a bit in a pinch.

[@charlesfortier6038]

As an air main I like those changes. Fighters attacking ground is nice early game to catch leaks (shuriken is not the only way now), and I always wanted an AOE fighter as right now the counter to 500 fighters is 501 fighters. AOE fighters will make those huge swarms useless which encourage variety. My favorite thing about this update though is the vision range increase. Usually you needed to use scouts before bombing since fighters and bombers were basically blind. You can also scout with fighters which is pretty cool. The scouts being much faster and cheaper than fighters makes them still very useful. I am also worried about fighters sniping mexes, but that only encourages your team to build AA on the frontline and for the air player to build a screen.

[@angry_strawberry2733]

I am very worried to see what fighters can do to metal extractors and build turrets

[@tim3adams]

Like 50 minutes into a supreme straight game I took out all the conversion and build power of the eco player with a pointed fighter attack. I got another persons afus to chain react all 10 afus just with fighters too... Talk about a game changer

[@angry_strawberry2733]

@@tim3adams yep. And now we have to think about if that is good or bad for the game. I dont think it is.

[@tim3adams]

@@angry_strawberry2733 it's very different. It makes AA far more valuable. It makes sense as there isn't much reason a plane can't shoot down. And only t1 fighters can do it, which now melt like butter to T2 fighters. It makes air more relevant and dangerous... It'll take getting used to but I'm not totally against it.

[@HonshuHigamori]

Explodium eco is gay and changes like this will make that apparent Look at Warcraft 3, if you sent a 'scout' unit to attack your enemy's mining units or buildings, it would be there chipping away for a solid 2 minutes before anything was done. In BAR, one Tick slips through the front lines and your converters are exploding and any mex without a turret next to it is dead I like the change overall but its definitely going to shine a light on how questionable some of the other design choices of this game are

[@farterboy]

​@@HonshuHigamoriI agree. This game should have more defense options and sturdier buildings in general. They are just so fragile for the most part. I get if some are fragile but most are. Maybe we should build walls around them?

[@DANgeonsNDragons]

It seems that with increased cost and power, you are also likely to have fewer fighters overall. This might have the effect of improving FPS/stability by decreasing number of units in a match. Currently late game 200v200 fighters tend to turn into a slideshow during engagement.

[@katto1937]

Yeah if we can just double the firepower (or equivalent) and cost, 100v100 or even 50v50 would be much more stable while not actually having any difference on the game

[@DANgeonsNDragons]

@@katto1937 There is a difference. Increased cost would at the very least change rush timings and strategies based around it. I do wonder whether slower/sturdier bombers mean that 2nd player to be hit can build AA in time. In theory there might be even enough time to build AA if you scout bombers on approach since you get more time until they reach base.

[@katto1937]

@@DANgeonsNDragons Not really, if the equivalent power was equivalent you could rush, just with less bombers. If 1 bomber is reworked to have the power of 5 you can still rush with one bomber. Ofc it's not as easy and gives less targets

[@DANgeonsNDragons]

@@katto1937 Except i have seen people rush out 1 bomber for a quick energy snipe. So if we are still talking 1 bomber rush, this patch means it costs more and moves slower. Then again, people are so bad at building their own AA, no idea whether extra time changes anything.

[@Argonwolfproject]

@@DANgeonsNDragons It's possible, but you'll need more AA power since the bombers have more health now which could offset the time savings.

[@ivancsontos7011]

it seems the armada cyclone seaplane is purpose built for anti-large flying unit response, so if the cortex builds a buncha dragons, bombers (or with the epic units, epic dragon and flying dreadnought) then armada has the cyclone to counter them, while cortex is meant to counter large numbers of chaff.

[@claytonshake7594]

Always look for a lobby named Wacky Noob Lobby.... typically set up by a player named KarlBARx. This lobby typically contains the new feature add-ons and experimental units. Always fun, usually unranked, to allow players time to adjust to differences. Much love!

[@shanerooney7288]

The Cyclones have high initial burst on their first shot. Perhaps that's good against enemy bombing runs. Because you might only get one chance to down the bombers before they explode your entire eco.

[@lordjammacus5431]

Not sure I am fully in support of this rework however I do really appreciate the slower speeds and need to micro more, for example i played a game of straights where i had 5 t2 aa bots pumped out immediately after seeing the 1 mph air push coming over the sea and manually targetted the bombers. The bombers have way more HP but if not properly microd as well will do very little to harm anything. The t1 fighters are a great tool to blow up eConverters too ;). Additionally its very worth spreading out build turrets now and monitoring your base during air raids as my econverters and build turrets would have died without manual repair during my encounter.

[@TGHoly]

Can't wait for Flame thrower Dragon! I also think Cyclone suppose to design to counter it which could be reason why they weapons seem so overkill but some how lost to another fighters.

[@pzyqux6641]

Guess you can use t1 fighters to snipe metal extractors and lonely constructors early game now. Gotta get AA up very quickly now

[@Argonwolfproject]

Don't forget that basic laser and plasma weapons that already had (admittedly pretty much worthless) anti-air capabilities are now a fair bit more effective, so a handful of LLTs should actually pose a significant threat to those lightly-armored attack planes. Maybe T1 gunships can become useful now as part of the update.

[@empireofitalypsstimfromano5025]

Legion Now Has The Legionnaire As A T2 Fighter, Discovered The Existence Of The 3rd Faction Recently So I Didn't Know They Used To Have The Nighthawk As A T2

[@jiffyd22]

New incoming missile truck meta 2.0!! 😁

[@athingwhichexists]

I like that they are making changes, but I think they may have gone a little too far. Perhaps a little faster? Also instead of making fighters capable of attacking the ground they should be buffing the t1 gunships which are terrible. Making the fighters attack ground just seems to further devalue the T1 gunship which was already one of the worst units int he game. I get they want the Air player to participate more in combat during the early game, but they def should have focused on the t1 gunships. I definitely don't like the increased cost for some of the units since I feel that decreases their balance (not the fighters, more referring to the bombers here. Their slow down is def far too far). I trust though that some of these changes will be balanced out over time.

[@jgbeerx]

They should have little robot pilots the bail out

[@eggos5074]

flak doesn't have friends.

[@patrickjoedaring1329]

that would be a framerate disaster

[@alexanderjmihalich8525]

Only for armada tho

[@OhBoy235]

im a bit worried that this might encourage t2 rushing for air players leaving everyone open for t1 bomber rushes, making a t1 airscreen will propably not happen with this. on the other hand anti air towers should get more shots off at bombers since theyre so slow now. i think some of the air units might be too slow i think they should be balanced around being fast enought to actually look fast while being slow enough to click on with a mouse.

[@bLedq]

Quite the opposite. Stick to t1 and snipe coms with fighters. I think this is bad.

[@OhBoy235]

@@bLedq if someone does that they will propably loose to the enemy air later on when they come with t2 fighters, loosing a com on the front is a sacrefice many are willing to make for being the first with t2 units to come back and sweep over the enemy. making enough t1 fighters to deal any significant damage should take about as long as getting t2 up anyways.

[@Argonwolfproject]

@@bLedq The com's basic laser should be significantly stronger against aircraft now, and I imagine it's not unlikely we'll see coms get personal AA missiles now that aircraft are becoming more integrated with land and naval combat.

[@bLedq]

I kinda hate this. T1 fighters will now be used to snipe coms. Why would I risk making gunships trying to have some impact on the front or have any answer for leaks when I just pump more fighters that will do it all on their own?

[@noahtekulve2684]

Efficiency, probably. I'd imagine that a gunship has better ground fire than the generalist fighters

[@Santisima_Trinidad]

The AoE fighters (from cortext at least) will obliterate your swarms of T1, and then you will be significantly behind in the air war. Plus ground units won't be defenceless, so higher firepower gunships might still be useful to kill stuff before it kills you, whilst fighter anti ground damage seems to be more a suggestion than anything

[@codesmith5]

The air fights will actually be won by tactics and flanking and splitting.

[@AyyPinkShades]

I don't know if it's been brought up or noted in practice yet, but realized while watching this that smaller raids may dip in usefulness as well. I've always liked spectating players sneakily take advantage of gaps in defenses by squeezing a small group of lower-tier units through, especially when they know who and what to harass if backline players haven't gotten a couple towers up in time. It feels weird that an air player doing the absolute bare minimum in making fighters that start to swarm their air space like in 95% of games already may also be screening any leaks that players would normally be punished for without it being any extra thought or work to manage. I don't know if that's an intentional philosophy change or not but I think I'd feel disappointed if it is. I haven't played in a bit, any idea if that's how it's been playing out?

[@Gamu13]

wow.... New changes... Brightworks, what is the key for sharing units with AI ?? keep up the good work.

[@smileyxo_]

the arrow bottom right screen next to ai name. select a unit u want to share, and double click the arrows next to name of player/ai u want to share to.

[@animeprofilepicture8783]

​@@smileyxo_he means how do you share units with enemy ai, which has no arrow

[@animeprofilepicture8783]

Oh! He shows how to do it at 11:15

[@smileyxo_]

ah lol yeah makes sense@@animeprofilepicture8783

[@SapphosSails]

He pressed 'H' to get to the interface to do it.

[@xeroprotagonist]

I think we need at least a couple more aircraft types honestly, there is not enough depth to the air game in general even with these changes. It seems like there's even less of a reason to build gunships now, too. And for the sake of everyone's PCs the game needs to be designed in such a way as to heavily discourage the building of massive walls of hundreds of fighters - there needs to be a good reason to send air units into combat immediately once they're made instead of everyone saving them up for one big decisive slideshow battle.

[@fenrissilverfang8419]

When do you reckon legion is gonna be officially added? They're still a way out seeing a good few holes in the tech tree I suppose, but I really like their different approach unit wise. Also adds a lot of fresh air to the game. As for air, seems like the armada heavy fighter is made to take down heavy bombers but is terrible against anything else. The reload is really hurting it bad.

[@Argonwolfproject]

The seaplane fighters almost seem like mirrors of the Pounder and Janus, with Cortex having an AoE swarm-killer and Armada having a high-damage single target assassin.

[@tabdeugo]

Speaking of Air troops: I just noticed that some buildings are transportable by T2 transport wich are : T0 turets, radar towers, construction turrets, twin and quadri guard, beamers, and Legion's cacophony (the minigun turret, even though legion has no advanced transport). Does transporting these on the frontline (or even in the enemy base) has any practical use or is it just for fun and chessing people who forgot to get anti-air?

[@sciencefliestothemoon2305]

Have you heard of the Nostradamus manoeuvre?

[@AbyssWatcher745]

It does have practical use. But the transport AI is too janky for most people to use them too often

[@Dagonius.]

LOL exactly! @@sciencefliestothemoon2305

[@empireofitalypsstimfromano5025]

​@@sciencefliestothemoon2305THE WHAT

[@Krarilotus]

i want the buildpower bar!

[@Gamu13]

In official settings there is no option. Maybe a mod :P

[@atrtsh]

The Dragon change is completely unrelated to air rework, Hornet did that a week ago, it's part of Release Candidate units. Also note that Legion air is unchanged by this mod, it was already differently responsive.

[@RR-zg7ei]

I don't think the fighter fights now look better/more cinematic; If you wana see how good air can feel in the string engine, take a look at NOTA's air.

[@mariuszszewczyk2277]

I didn't even know there's a legion faction. I didn't see it in the faction selection

[@BrightWorksTV]

It's under advanced settings, I'd definitely say to give it a look!

[@DriIceman]

is that a buildpower bar on top there?!

[@isbad234]

It is it's called top bar 2.0

[@manumaster1990]

nice

[@jameshudson6080]

Where do I find the settings where it randomly puts me in a starting position from 4 teams. Team 1 was at lower left but when game started we were on the upper right. I don't see an option to stop random placement.

[@BrightWorksTV]

I think the solution to the issue, if I'm understanding correctly is to make sure the start boxes align with the team numbers before game and put yourself on the team with the box you want to start in

[@Sixty-Nine1987]

Beneath the players box, is a list of six options.. ALL of those options pertain to team matchmaking. The answer you seek for your solution is in among those six options! GL/HF

[@drstranger4407]

Re name bat to albertrose

[@Tim_van_de_Leur]

First!!!! And More Brightworks!!!

[@Tim_van_de_Leur]

Where's my pixels? Can only set it to 480p :S

[@BrightWorksTV]

Should clear up over time, I had some weird issues uploading this one

[@Kozhn]

I think that is common if you watch it soon after it is uploaded. @@Tim_van_de_Leur

[@heymetwaly9235]

my first look, it was

[@Stanis223]

20 v 20 v 20 isn't really 'fair'. I did a similar test yesterday and worked up the cost per unit based on (metal + energy/70) i know they've tweaked costs since then but I had 5000m metal at roughly 38 t1 20 t2 10 seaplane other than the seaplanes "in defence" where their AoE tended to heavily hit an incoming blob t1 fighters were just better. you get to build them much faster based on t1 lab + build power requirements too i also discovered that lines of well spaced aircraft seemed to fair better than click move blobs. As might be expected :)

[@BrightWorksTV]

Yeah that's a really good point I think at that point I moreso just wanted a very rough comparison. I think it's interesting the eco changes they've made but I'm curious if it's serious enough of a nerf to justify the new versatility

[@CrypticCode97]

Is there a way to spread out attacking fighters i.e. have them engage one on one so they don't clump up against a single enemy and get splashed

[@BrightWorksTV]

This would solve a lot of issues in a lot of cases and I think it would require some sort of rework for the units ai. Currently it's an unfortunate annoyance that just has to be worked around

[@Cryptexzz]

Considering ai shoots on targets on it's own when in range, why not just move them into a line and then fight afterwards ?@@BrightWorksTV

[@Sixty-Nine1987]

I think the air units are WAY too slow.. Like this is ridiculous to even see, let alone comprehend how anyone could see this as a positive change! Some of the ground units are nearly as fast as the air units!!! HOW DOES THAT EVEN MAKE SENSE?! There's a level of understood realism that is expected in each RTS.. When we don't see this, avid players such as myself get headaches just looking at the battles play out because what we see doesn't compute with what is real! Jet planes do not fly the limited speeds of propeller planes and air balloons!! And no, right off the bat, fuck your arguments about this being a game, and realism should not be expected! NO! IT SHOULD! ---> Yes, the point of playing a game is to escape reality.. But that doesn't mean we want to play a game where physics no longer makes sense! Else why bother trying to simulate terrain alterations via heavy fire power? Why do game devs work so hard on recreating realistic environments, if realism isn't what we as the player base want? Obviously we want our games and entertainment to reflect reality! We just don't want to take part in it in a realistic way...---> IE: I am the machine, or prime entity that controls a vast army of automatons for the sheer purpose of galactic conquest.. The air battles as they were before weren't hard to keep a track of based on movement.. It was hard based on numbers because the whole theater of aerial warfare was by design dependant on it just as much as ground is! Kind of hard to keep track of a swarm of fast moving air units.. DUH! But all these other new design changes fix that by making swarms a strategically bad idea! Why slow the damn air units down to the point of thrown snails (A snail is slower than ground units until picked up and thrown!)? /facepalm We already had aerial tanks! I don't want all my air units to feel like slightly faster or more mobile ground units!!!

[@kirill2525]

im new to BAR but it seems like unless you have a demented amount of air, the AA towers will just make air useless as they fly so slow you cant even fly past them or even get to them to attack them

[@SoowDeJu]

can we set a toggle for fighters to only target other air units?

[@BrightWorksTV]

I'd definitely like to see this

[@tomd3264]

There’s a 3rd faction now?

[@isbad234]

I actually dislike the change that fighters can hit the ground

[@alexanderjmihalich8525]

If a ground attack counts for an aa attack in terms of cool down I hope we can toggle that ability

[@isbad234]

@@alexanderjmihalich8525 sorry I had a stroke reading this what are you trying to say?

[@viljosavolainen2286]

​@@isbad234if aa and ag attacks share same reload timer your fighters might not be ready to shoot air targets. Also shooting ground targets should have damage penalty like whistlers.

[@isbad234]

@@viljosavolainen2286 still this change is not one I like t1 gun ships even more useless com snipes are going to be more frequent mexs will be so easy to shut down eco snipes and if no air player or heavy AA then ground forces get destroyed oh and now air is slower getting rid of one of the biggest strengths of air in the first place

[@Ola_liker_polet]

Meh, T1 should be fast and nimble. T2 could be the big heavy fliers. T1 fighters in this mod is so slow that they lose their role on big maps. Just fix the non-bombers on T2 to not be super expensive but feel so much worse for the investment vs ground T2.

[@vaderbolado]

I didnt like I think fighters should atack only air units

[@SapphosSails]

Legion isn't a main playable faction yet is it? Like can you use legion in ranked games yet?

[@Argonwolfproject]

You can use any mod in ranked games except individual player resource bonuses.

[@BrightWorksTV]

The answer to your question is sort of a yes and no situation. They are definitely far from complete as of yet however it doesn't stop you from using them even in a ranked game. Typically people don't for fairness reasons but that's sort of the BAR blessing and curse... Basically anything is possible

[@Xenotric]

honestly the air combat in this and supcom has always irked me, the way you just made a big swarm that spent 90% of their life circling over the backlines while ground units constantly duked it out makes air play kinda dull. Hopefully making them a whole lot tankier will mean you can actually use them to attack outside of all in bombing runs and more a first strike force before the slower but even tougher ground units move in or actually hit targets from other angles etc etc. Though I suspect that would require ground static defence to be deadlier and air static defense less so.

[@TheSometimeAfter]

Buildings are way too fragile. This will highlight that. They need to be careful that it doesnt just become and air race every game. The air units are by far the least interesting and 1 dimensional units in this game

[@sne4ky647]

Hmm interesting, although it doesn’t make sense why t2 fighters can’t target ground forces

[@soulgamer612]

I think thats supposed to make t1 air more versatile and keep t2 a more specialized option, so players are less inclined to just skip t1 entirely. Makes sense to me, though these seaplane aoe fighters feel very weird right now