This is the Difference Between Support and Offlane Support

Subscribe for more Dota content: / @tortedelini or check it out LIVE: / tortedelini
This is the Difference Between Support and Offlane Support
For way too long, a lot of players have been playing Offlane and Safe Lane Support as the same thing in Dota 2. In a way, yes, they are interchangeable depending on your draft. But in many ways, they are vastly different where one is built around disrupting the lane and the other is preserving it. In the end, it is about enabling your laning core partner, but that enabling is with two distinct goals with two distinct subsequent responsibilities.
You can find me on Twitter for thoughts, opinions and news: / tortedelini
You can chat with me about Dota on Discord: / discord
Chapters:
0:00 Introduction
0:15 Goals of Support
1:22 Examples of Position 4
2:27 Examples of Position 5
3:15 Heroes That Do Both
4:24 Exceptions
5:38 Conclusion
Bio:
Torte de Lini is a popular Dota 2 Builds & Guides Creator. On his channel, Torte de Lini explores Dota builds, how-to guides to play heros and creates fun memes from his experiences. Before creating content, Torte de Lini worked in esports launching studios, live-streaming platforms, digital magazines, Major & Minor events and leagues for Dota 2, Counter-Strike: Global Offensive, PUBG, Street Fighter, League of Legends as well as experience working with world championship teams in Counter-Strike and Dota 2. For over 10 years, Torte de Lini's in-game Dota 2 builds have been trusted by some of the best players, OpenAI projects and Dota community. Over 3 billion matches are played using Torte de Lini's guides and continue to be regularly updated and trusted to this day. Here's to another 10 years of Dota and good luck in your matches!
#dota2guide #DOTA2 #TorteDeLini

[@TorteDeLini]

Just a heads-up, the list of supports you see in the video are examples and not a complete outline of all possible Position 5 or 4 hero choices.

[@Bobby.Kristensen]

Yea, I noticed... 😆

[@Hosenbund1]

i dont know what i would do without your item guides in dota. every other creator is not nearly as good and does not update their guides as regularly please keep going forever! and also nice videos.. i enjoy watching them

[@TorteDeLini]

Thanks fam, I try 🥰

[@3_am___]

This man saved soo much people with in game build guides

[@zerosuitsamus2340]

Mentality speaking pos 4 is really not the best support role for me because im only good at post 5 support due to tendency of defensive style playing to help carry as much as i could. Not to mention i really dont know what sets bounderies between post 4 and 5 specific roles. Glad to see your guides on KZbin now other than in game guides bro. Peace 🖤

[@TorteDeLini]

Thanks for checking out my stuff. A good offense is a good defense even for pos 5.

[@biggaming44]

item guides saved me thx

[@pogipogito]

thanks for this video man, I remember asking you this on your stream the other day. :D

[@TorteDeLini]

yep! It comes up a lot so I just wanted to get it done and out

[@taRomi93]

I'd just like to point out a small detail, io overcharge hasn't given dmg reduction in like 4 years? It's attack speed, spell amp and regen.

[@BlueFlash215]

Playing 95% of my heroes with your item guides. When I'm comfortable (like with Omni) and I get a 60% Winrate I start adding and removing things. Still buying shard ASAP on Omni and phylactery after Dagger. Need soul ring only in 10% of my games. You are a blessing to the community. I wish you could add a small list to Nullifier info for which hero it hard counters (there is only 10 or so I'd say). Just the names or abbreviations would help a lot. With your Lifestealer guide I do always get S&Y second but I don't always get the feeling why I do it. I just follow the guide and have a positive Winrate (almost 59%). For mid heroes without a bottle. Is there any way for you to add info on why the hero doesn't need a bottle? Would really help out my friends. Same for brown boots only heroes like Huskar. Would be a great info on why you skip PT

[@TorteDeLini]

I'm working on rewriting tooltips for all the guides. I started in December 2023 and it's just a very long process. Especially now that I'm doing KZbin and Twitch streaming to earn a bit from doing 11 years of free guides. I'm going to write down on my notepad your suggestions so I don't forget them. For Nullifier, I think I give two examples but can add more.

[@frustratedOthan]

I'm omni user what I rather build is null talisman + raindrops early for mana, you dont need soul ring because omni isnt that mana consuming also his 1st and 3rd skill has little bit of long cooldown

[@mtsfaccion]

excellent video as always !

[@TorteDeLini]

Thank you! Cheers!

[@Joshua-lv9cj]

Thanks for the videos!

[@TorteDeLini]

My pleasure!

[@opini_kehidupan]

I often following his guide on dota. But now that first time to watch his channel

[@RifukiRyu]

I think the main difference between pos 4 and 5 heroes is the itemization and skill set. Pos 5 can carry the game with just level alone meanwhile pos 4 need a couple of key item such as blink, aghs, bkb etc for them to be able to carry the game.

[@ruiwatanabe9823]

Jesus torte, this is exactly the video I need. Ive had many supports that dont know the difference

[@TorteDeLini]

Tell 'em to watch haha!

[@olegzubkov1109]

Torte, new viewer here. I've had Dota since 2013, played for 2k hours at closed beta, then left for a couple of years. Your guides (in-game and without) have been pure platinum for jump-starting me back into the groove of things + letting me know of all the new additions to the core gameplay. I do still have 1 burning question: how can I force my low MMR teammates to group and finish the game instead of afk farming until minute 40-50? I've lost countless games that were winnable early due to our, for example, WK farming with Midas+Radiance for 50 minutes (against an AM) instead of getting a Blink and finishing at 30 mins. Is there anything I can do as a Pos 4/5 hardstuck player?

[@TorteDeLini]

There's nothing you can do to force people to do the things you want them to do. That's never been possible and the mindset to want them to do as you want is not actually hindering your ability to accept and play the situation you are forced into. My recommendation is to pick heroes, as a Pos 4/5, that can scale to those late-game scenarios or stall to that duration. If you have a farming WK that goes Midas, you better prepare yourself to also be able to flash-farm rather than working yourself up to the expectation that is not relevant to your skill level. Yes, they should finish by minute 30 if they're winning but that is not your reality.

[@john6882]

As usual, good content

[@matpac_]

I think oracle can work as a 4 too, a lot of damage potential from his combo with big range, esp against those low hp agi carries works really nice

[@TorteDeLini]

Yes, depends on lineup and enemy

[@Yoppppol]

Torte deserves more subs for teaching newbie like me, your build tutorial help me alot, i didn't know that you have yt ch, auto sub

[@TorteDeLini]

Thanks for the sub!

[@HkGaming-hatem]

very nice video , keep it up!

[@TorteDeLini]

Thanks a lot!

[@olivercroft5263]

great clips wow !

[@the_phatsanator4887]

This needs to be on the client front page

[@CrucialflyHD]

I have no idea what Im doing right or wrong but ive collected 1400 mmr delta with pos4 magnus past year. But it feels like 4 is way more open to experiment with than 5

[@TorteDeLini]

I feel that way as well but it really depends on the Pos 3 pick

[@asummerday4448]

Visage is amazing in the offlane especially against squishy carries

[@ridzuanmustaffa]

Shaman always my top priority support nowdays. Hex enemy and shackle them so my carry can take time to hit. My fav build: aether, dagger, shard, octarine and wind waker

[@TorteDeLini]

His talents are really nice too

[@Mr_Nobody640]

So you're the guy whose guidance i follow.

[@TorteDeLini]

hi

[@ronanharris8216]

Hi Torte, I am currently feeling complicated about my attempt to focus on playing less heroes (spamming) and realized that not all cores (and players) seem able to cope with the lane matchup situation or is respecting me as a player enough due to the always changing drafts in every single match. Would you think that this is a fair or a common sacrifice to take until I am able to hit the 100+ matches on Oracle ? I feel like not satisfied enough to see myself unable to outplay the enemy in the worst possible lane while later on the game, my cores is no longger as commiting. I feel like many players on my bracket always interpet winning a lane is a must at all costs and I hate to break the reality of things that they are just imagining things. I wished I could climb to a much higher medal but at the moment I kept trading MMR at Crusader 3 due to this (I started from Guardian 5). Perhaps, I can self describe this best as a "phase". Lastly, why the hell I ran into players deranking themselves from Ancient, Legend, and Archon dowm to the same bracket as I am. This concerns me in every single match I had.

[@Dergottdeskrieges]

Bro, at this low level (no offense) lane matchup and other detailed things are way less important than understanding the macro stuff, like taking advantage of the map, win conditions, power spikes, and specially forward pressure. No one knows what they're doing at this bracket, every match will take +40min, you'll have plenty of time to do a lot of things on the map and also a lot of mistakes at no cost, no one will capitalize on them. Take your time to learn the game as a whole. Try to pick heroes that are good at a little bit of everything, like Shadow Shaman for example, he has disables, wins lanes, takes towers and can farm pretty decently. Taking towers wins games and no one seems to understand that up until Ancient bracket, if you just spam Shadow Shaman and take towers, you'll reach Legend easily. Then you can focus on learning detailed stuff about laning phase and heroes that have different win conditions. You can win 100% of your lanes if you just learn starting items, leave base with 2 sentries to block camps and control vision, stack pull instead of single pull, and guarantee the mage creep LH and deny.

[@ronanharris8216]

@@Dergottdeskrieges Hi, thanks for the suggestion but I have taken notes of similar feedback and have implemented them as well. I do not want to sound like I disagree with your earlier points that mistakes on this bracket are torelable, but I always tried to maintain a consistent play whereas others do not seem to be as much. I know this because I have been spamming and I know where the lane matchups are the worst. I had lots of games with Shadow Shaman before I begun spamming Oracle so I know well how much MMR is lost playing with him as I sacrifice myself for every little things. Contrary to popular beliefs, games on this bracket has pull stack, aggresive camp block without sentries, and is not as tolerable against mistakes. I will continue spamming and play with the odds at hand.

[@raflyarafat4882]

Spam heroes = less micro, more macro aspects, good for pushing mmr. I do think that oracle is not the strongest laner, doesn't have much synergy with popular carries, and isnt often picked hence most players don't know how to play around oracle. But since you are 1st pick anyway, its kinda okay to spam the hero. You will eventually get better with the hero, but that doesn't necessarily means winning. Sometimes, there's no counterplay for bad matchup. While oracle is not the best hero in the current meta, its okay to spam it if you're comfortable with it. I do suggest you pick other hero every 2 or 3 match. It can refresh your brain, less stress = more chance for good play. . Keep rocking the support role. We need more players like you. Cheers from your fellow support enjoyer

[@ronanharris8216]

@@raflyarafat4882 Thanks for the comment. I have alternative options like Undying, Warlock, and Witch Doctor at times where anyone other than the soft support picks first to provide some amount of synergy. But generally speaking, I mostly had to pick first phase.

[@TorteDeLini]

Hey man, just relax and play to enjoy the game and to learn new heroes and situations. You need to play to the tune of your ally if they won't play to your style. If they're passive, stack camps, rotate and just keep the enemy off their back. If they're inefficient, farm some of the camps or lanes yourself assuming no one is rotating in that direction. You're restricting yourself by trying to impose what you want onto other people and we know that just doesn't work. Should you stick to Oracle? Only if you enjoy it, the rest is just details. Being Crusader means there's lots to do and improve from. Trust me, higher medals = new set of problems. There will always be a new challenge and set of complaints players will have about other players

[@alrayz2953]

as support i always hate when carry didnt know the timing, like going aggresive at lvl 2 or offlaner that mad cz i leave the lane. overall dont play support it drain ur sanity (fr)

[@Kamirasu]

is it possible to make a nyx guide in the near future?

[@TorteDeLini]

So many heroes, so little time :( I'm trying to do more guides

[@Kamirasu]

@@TorteDeLini that's fair man; just keep up the great work!

[@TorteDeLini]

Cheers ♥️ next probably Ringmaster for obvious reasons

[@daviddunt545]

Dora is a game of timing. Tempo is what determines wins. Offlaners should aim at getting that tower as soon as possible. Don’t know if you know this but you win Dota by hiting buildings. EVERY game in the pro scene that had a team afk farm and didn’t set the tempo in their favour lost.

[@francisjosephcutamora8530]

Sometimes I pick pos 4 heroes and I go pos 5 and it works Vice versa also in pos 5 heroes played pos4 Feels weird

[@JaketheEmpoleon]

I’ll be honest I didn’t even know tor de lini was a real person

[@TorteDeLini]

Real 🤧

[@JaketheEmpoleon]

@@TorteDeLini Lol, fr bro I thought you were a bot that made all the default guides lol. Great job on those tho keep up the good work

[@ryanthounaojam3905]

Lmao samee but I saw him on discord server one time and found out he's actually real!

[@Adam-574]

I HAVE FOUND HIM. THE GUY WHO HAS GUIDES FOR ALL HEROES

[@TorteDeLini]

hi

[@cleric4933]

I play down in the trenches. Is there room for 2 pos 5 when your team has chosen a particularly greedy Offlaner?

[@TorteDeLini]

Depends on the Pos 5

[@lloydarenas3]

another top tier content!

[@TorteDeLini]

Glad you enjoy it!

[@Renvyr]

And VENO ???

[@primarkbargainbin9847]

In my bracket, as a support main, if other support pick nuker i always pick saves. Its that easy

[@TorteDeLini]

that's interesting, hadn't considered that!

[@mfismail2]

im learning Chen rn. seems like hes not a support?

[@TorteDeLini]

The list is incomplete. Chen is great but requires a team to work together to push when he is at his strongest.

[@hidan1313]

So according to you venom is neither 4 nor 5

[@TorteDeLini]

List is incomplete

[@TaoriUTS]

farm khanda+aghs and grief whole team somehow does not fit this description. ODD. i did not say it but everyone had sniper in mind from my first sentence

[@diegodias5498]

Hello! Can you say me how i play with the hereos that you say in guide that are offlaners, but, for play with theys how sup 4? I am losing games with Tusk off, because i am doing the roaming. In what lv i must do the roaming? I farm in lane with tusk, or only i fight? Or you is sayng for no get they how off, but how sup 4? You wrote in the guide that they are off. And say in the guid for play how sup 4! Becase no put in guide like roaming ou sup? I am not understand you. I saw a video here where you say that boynty hunter is sup 4. But in guide is how off, and you say in guide for play how sup 4. If these heroes are sup 4, change what you wrote that they are offlane. Its is a big problem for me! I edited all heroes of dota, based in your guides. I did 4 edits, off, mid, safe and support. In edit of sup eu put the heros in 3 category. sup 4, roaming, and sup 5. Put the heroes that are roaming how support, and no how off! You were doing it! And changed! And its is very bad! I was playing with this heroes how off, and theys are sup 4?! I lost 3 games trying do tusk off roaming! But i won with nature off roaming. But you say that spirit break is off, and in other video you say that it is sup! And pudge, is off ou sup? kzbin.info/www/bejne/f2TCkKiPjsmdhpI&ab_channel=TortedeLiniDota

[@TorteDeLini]

Sorry man, I don't understand you. Can you write it in your native language? The guides in game have a title that says their role. Pos 4 is Offlane Support

[@diegodias5498]

@@TorteDeLini Você colocou os heróis bounty hunter, and tusk como offlane, mas, escreve para jogar com eles como suporte 4. Você quis dizer que eles são suporte 4, ou que são offlaners que fazem roaming? Se você quis dizer que eles são suportes 4, por favor, tire a descrição de que eles são offlaners. Porque isso está me atrapalhando. Eu jogo com os 124 heroís do jogo. E por isso editei todos os heróis em 4 partes separadas, uma para cada função, me baseando nos seus guias: midlaner, safelane, offlane e suporte. Na parte de suporte eu separei em 3 partes: suporte 4, roaming e suporte 5. Antes você colocava os heróis como suportes, e escreva se eram roaming, supore 4 ou suporte 5. Agora você tem escrito que heróis são offlaners, e depois escreve pra jogar com eles como suportes 4. Eu fico sem entender se eles são offlaners ou suportes 4. Exemplos: Nature, tusk, bountyn hunter. E teve o spirit breaker que você diz que é offlaner, e fez um video recente de 1 mês atrás, falando que ele é suporte 4! Conseguiu me entender?

[@diegodias5498]

​@@TorteDeLini Você está colocando heróis como tusk, bounty hunter, hoodwink, nature, como offlaners. Mas, escreve pra jogá-los como suporte 4. Você quis dizer que eles são suportes 4 ou offlaners que fazem suporte 4? Eu estou muitas partidas de Tusk. O escolhendo como offlane e tentando jogar como suporte 4. Fico fazendo roaming. Se você quis colocar esses heróis como suporte 4, mude a descrição deles para suporte. Você escreveu que são offlaners. Eu editei todos os heróis do jogo baseado nas suas guias, e dividi em 4 partes, mid, off, safe e suporte. E na parte de suporte eu escrevo quem é suporte 4, roaming e suporte 5.

[@pieroirribarren7003]

fINALLY

[@melbryansolon-ru6ei]

i didnt know that clinkz can be pos4 lol

[@TorteDeLini]

Not as popular now but he was and can still be

[@maunabesanika]

Outplay your opponents, be unpredictable, pos 5 luna xd

[@BankaiSenin]

Did you forget Disruptor on this list?

[@TorteDeLini]

It's not a complete list.

[@diegodias5498]

Abadon aqui está como 5, mas, em seu guia está como posição 3.

[@TorteDeLini]

A hero can play two roles.

[@markrichan766]

No veno?

[@TorteDeLini]

Not a complete list.

[@ShortsDota2]

10/10

[@TorteDeLini]

Cheers 😊

[@koalatv2491]

Huh how is jakiro not on that list

[@TorteDeLini]

It's not a complete list.

[@koalatv2491]

@@TorteDeLini I see okok

[@premd1940]

1:34 The best support in the game at this time, which is 1st phase pick and ban is not mentioned here. Talking abt disruptor ofc

[@TorteDeLini]

He's shown as an example with Weaver later in the video. It's not a complete list

[@socrates1796]

good guide except item guide

[@TorteDeLini]

In what way?

[@donprimo286]

Dude please dont promote silencer as a position 5. Its not that you are wrong but i hate when its on MY team

[@TorteDeLini]

I think Silencer is terrible this patch to be honest

[@maestromgx]

So Silencer pos 1?

[@Singsongpingpong]

I think silencer is fine? It's a lane dominating support, if you skill it right.

[@allanjeffries6937]

​@Singsongpingpong ogre magi is stupid tanky, undying abuses you trying to fight him, pugna spams q like he's Santa clause, venomancer slows you for 15 seconds so his carry can right click you to death, dazzle has 1 of if not the strongest level 1 spells, all silencer gets is either his q, a >100 damage spell with one of the weakest slows for 130 mana or you skill e which would be a decent ability.... if it wasn't on a 22 second cooldown. You could also be really stupid and skill his w for 5 extra damage per auto FOR 20 MANA. Point being, if you want to dominate lane as a support either you or your carry needs to provide kill threat and the other needs to provide setup, and silencer just doesn't do that, hes not a lane dominator by any metric. The ability that makes silencer a relevant pick and the reason people play him at all is so they can cancel black hole with his ult. If you want to dominate lane, refer to the other 5 heroes I mentioned. Dominating lane is match-up dependent though so keep that in mind

[@Singsongpingpong]

@@allanjeffries6937 at level 4 q e combo does 400 dmg. Average non str hero support has 700+ hp. One combo brings enemy support out of the fight. Even with Regen, the support won't be able to sustain. If you spam this combo on a non naix carry, you can easily zone him out of farming range with no issues. I don't see a problem? It's just the way you play the hero.

[@ChinkyChickenxx]

Shadow Demon dead

[@TorteDeLini]

Great hero with Luna

[@muhammadaryosaputro9426]

Remove clinkz

[@TorteDeLini]

Clinkz Pos 4 was and still is popular: dota2protracker.com/hero/Clinkz

[@mrlabeouf9002]

@@TorteDeLini Clinkz is a popular pos 4. But i think pro tracker is a bad example for normal pubs. Terrorblade for example is a garbage tier hero sitting at 42% winrate but pros have good success with him anyway

[@TorteDeLini]

They nerfed Terrorblade so he isn't that good right now. While I agree that protracker is not reflective in normal pubs, a lot of people like to imitate pro games and, most importantly, a lot of meta picks that come from pro games also trickle down to normal pubs. Clinkz Pos 4 has been a thing for over a year now. He was nerfed but now he's back again from Pos 2 to Pos 1 to Pos 4 including. Lastly, we are not viewing the winrate of Clinkz here, only its popularity to validate that it is a viable and acceptable Position 4 hero.

[@mrlabeouf9002]

@@TorteDeLini Fair enough, good video btw and been using your guides for ages. Keep it up