This Is the Thing That Will Destroy Our Cities

[@CityNerd]

Did you know this video has been available on Nebula since Saturday? Four days early! Next week's video is scheduled to hit Nebula on Friday (two days from now). Better yet, it's ad-free and promo-free on Nebula, and best of all -- NO COMMENT SECTION. Use my custom link for 40% off an annual subscription -- it really REALLY helps the channel! go.nebula.tv/citynerd And yeah, lifetime is still available, too! go.nebula.tv/lifetime?ref=citynerd

[@tatianatub]

the lack of comment section is the one thing keeping me from using nebula

[@mayam9575]

Was this pre or post taxed gini coefficient? A lot of the places mentioned have various degrees of taxes and social services. A high gini coefficient in NYC is less alarming to me than in Birmingham because the top tax rate is around 50% and NYC and much less in Birmingham. NYC also has relatively cheap public transit and a programs that guarantee a bed for all homeless people. A strong progressive tax rate can be a good way to combat high levels of inequality.

[@khunopie9159]

It REALLY helps my bank account!

[@gordonv.cormack3216]

@@mayam9575 The site has both. After tax is lower than before tax. I don't recall which this summary is.

[@angelgarza7437]

​@@tatianatub same here

[@ThreeRunHomer]

DC explanation: government workers and government contractors make good salaries but not astronomical salaries. So there are a huge number of middle income people in the DC area, outweighing the number of poor people that are there too.

[@charleskummerer]

And low income black people have been pushed out for the last 4 decades

[@philalethistry7937]

Wasn't it in the news that the minimum wage for federal workers was *only just* raised to $15 an hour? I recall a story about a cafeteria worker who had to live out of her car.

[@drewski-qu3co]

that is why Baltimore exists

[@davidbodner5076]

Yeah, but he picked Gini numbers for metropolitan regions, not municipalities. So, the previously urban, still-poor should still be counted.@@charleskummerer

[@stephenlight647]

National Taxes are transferred to DC and suburbs, creating the usual Imperial City, seen since the advent of Civilization over 5,000 years ago. There is nothing new in this. When the Empire crumbles, the Imperial City will fade away.

[@norlockv]

Your love for integral calculus is apparent.

[@N_g_er]

I'm a homosexual man as well 😊

[@QemeH]

@@N_g_er Math is gay now? Lord help this country...

[@critiqueofthegothgf]

@@QemeH always has been...

[@sazanadora565]

@@QemeH Math is WOKE??!

[@alquinn8576]

@@sazanadora565using the number "0" is cultural appropriation

[@NoahTheJew17]

As a DC resident, I know that a lot of young white collar professionals aren't registered here (voting, drivers license, even responding to the census) because of statehood. They'd rather stay registered in their home state where they feel their vote matters more. Depending on how the data is collected that could skew things.

[@ivy_47]

I'm glad we at least have presidential electors but at this point congress matters a lot more sadly yep.

[@LoveStallion]

That's why I live in NOVA. You know, so we can have Youngkin... Wait...

[@qrterlber103103103]

DC should not be a state. Founding fathers would of thought it would have to much political power for its size. If you care to vote don't become a resident.

[@MNuttree]

If the income data used in this video comes from the Census Bureau, voter registration wouldn't have any effect. The Census asks where you slept on April 1, not where you vote.

[@pauloleary9464]

He's using the DC MSA, not DC itself. His analysis includes counties like Spotsylvania, Calvert, Loudoun, etc. Google "Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV MSA" and you'll see what I mean.

[@adamhall5332]

No way! I am from Fairbanks! And I’m now a loyal city nerd viewer! Never thought I’d see my hometown on any of your lists because it’s not urban or walkable at all. 😂

[@Flying_Skier]

we also got a mention in the most climate resilient cities video. It's not walkable but the bike paths are separated and there's no more demand to induce on the roads!

[@adamhall5332]

@@Flying_Skier good point! You just need the fat tires, and the thickest gloves! 🥶

[@Flying_Skier]

@@adamhall5332 with pogies and a fatbike, anything is possible

[@alquinn8576]

Fairbanks is probably too small to make most of his cutoffs for pop size

[@christiananderson3192]

And even better you now know the number you need to call to report a pothole

[@UniquelyUnseen]

DC theory from a former resident - lots of federal employment, and social services. Not surprised to see CT on the dishonorable list. One of the highest income inequitable states in the nation.

[@aerob1033]

Yes, I wonder if DC might perform better for the simple and obvious reason that it has a ton of government jobs, which tend to pay "middle class" incomes.

[@mikeomatic9905]

⁠@@aerob1033exactly. Doubly-so if you also count government contractors, who are mostly paid well, but are not paid outrageously well. When I'm in DC, I see a whole lot of Mercedes, BMWs, Audis, etc, and not quite that many really old cars. But when I visit Charlotte, I see a lot of Ferraris and Lamborghinis and a lot of old cars.

[@eugenetswong]

As a Canadian, I get the impression the DC and Ottawa are the corruption capitals of our countries, so I'm not surprised to see DC mentioned this way.

[@marshallsokoloff]

unsurprisingly, DC is also somewhere around 90% progressive. GOP government types often talk about hating living there as they are completely outnumbered socially. And Trump has talked of moving the nations capitol for this (t)reason. I guess he'll want to put it on one of his golf courses.

[@TheWaross]

Federal gov jobs being very middle income and they usually offer strong pensions which probably stabilize income in their old age as relatively high compared to other middle income people with no pension

[@axioms22]

Having lived in DC for over 7 years I'd say it's more equal because most of the affluent folks are just decently paid government bureaucrats, govt doesn't pay as much as tech or private which dominate in NYC and Bay area.

[@Vlasov45]

And all the actually rich people live in like Alexandria and other Virginia suburbs.

[@Hishmars]

@@Vlasov45 its MSA not just the DC city limits, so this included everything NOVA and a good chunk of southern maryland

[@rgriscom]

Like someone else mentioned - it is unclear if the Gini coefficient for college towns includes the incomes of college students, who likely make much less during the time they are studying, but then go on to have higher incomes later. The coefficient could be very different for the non-student population alone.

[@agilemind6241]

Yes but also no. While professors & administrators at universities get paid well, janitors, ground maintenance, and secretaries often don't. Plus there are a whole host of discount-focused industries that cater to the student population which are almost universally minimum-wage jobs - fast food joints, discount supermarkets, cheap clothes stores, cheap bars etc....

[@x--.]

Past experience with the Census says they care only about where you're sleeping most of the time, right now (if people are willing to take the survey). So, I'd expect it to be included.

[@johnlabus7359]

Most metros over a million are going to have college and university students to one degree or the other, and I doubt that it would change the rankings all that much.

[@julietardos5044]

@@agilemind6241 Professors don't get paid all that well, and it's on a downward trend. Colleges have been hiring "adjunct" professors rather than full professors so that they don't have to pay them as much. And then we, as a society, complain about the quality of education...

[@daanachmad4032]

People still don't realise how quantitative data is not as straightforward as they think it is. In fact, it can be misleading.

[@tristanridley1601]

Canada doesn't do MSAs, but Greater Toronto's gini is the worst of any Canadian metro. The gini index of 0.407 is sad, and I'm shocked to see it would be the BEST in the USA.

[@malloc7108]

The question is also what counts. If you just price out everyone who is low income, the inequality looks good, when really you're just forcing poorer people to commute more.

[@aimxdy8680]

That’s because Toronto and most of canadian middle class is poorer than US middle class. So of course it’ll look good, now put US middle class earnings into canadian cities and watch that income inequality skyrocket. Not to mention, over 20% of americans in 2022 made over 150,000 USD.

[@choui4]

​@@aimxdy8680source or spec?

[@aimxdy8680]

@@choui4 US Data Census bureau S1901 for income distribution.

[@aimxdy8680]

@@choui4 2022 Household income distribution for the US "$150,000 to $199,999 8.7% $200,000 or more 11.5% Median income (dollars) 74755 Mean income (dollars) 105555"

[@jaredwark4775]

That quick detour to Google how to report a pothole in Fairbanks was so unexpected, but also so funny. Love your channel and glad you posted the reaction livestream.

[@CityNerd]

I actually had Fairbanks on my mind during the livestream because I'd already done the analysis for this video lol

[@catsupchutney]

Before Jordan Peterson went full wingnut, he had made some cogent points about how income inequality destroys societies.

[@robhousehold]

Pretty sure he's always been a wingnut. A broken clock will still have the correct time twice a day, but wrong every other time

[@RichardGreen422]

What a great, clear explanation of GINI! Also, when last I ranked MSAs, and found where the 165 millionth person lives, it was in Providence. So the median American lives in an MSA of about 1.6 million. As for college towns, students making no money currently do move the GINI coefficient. I once computed GINI by census tract within LA County, and a Westwood tract (home of UCLA) had the highest. DC has lots of government jobs, which have a pretty attenuated salary scale. And I don't know how people in LA live on less than $50K wither.

[@johnlabus7359]

Neither Miami nor Raleigh surprised me. You can feel the difference in income inequality between these two metros, and I'm really familiar with both of them.

[@aimxdy8680]

Well, Raleigh would have slightly higher inequality if you include Durham.

[@NathanaelTak]

One thing I see in NYC, which I'm sure is happening all over, is that the prices of rentals are rising faster than incomes. It's not that there are wealthier households taking up residence, there is a significant chunk of real estate serving as housing stock, or commodity. Society is being forced to adapt to these constraints and cohabitate in homes that have already been subdivided.

[@charlienyc1]

While true, this has been happening for decades. I got priced out of a Brooklyn apartment over 10 years ago.

[@triaxe-mmb]

0:40 Topic Introduction 2:02 What is GINI Coefficient and Methodology 5:59 List Introduction 6:24 10 - Cleveland, OH 7:08 9 - San Jose, CA 7:49 8 - Tampa/St. Pete, FL 8:18 7 - Birmingham, AL 8:52 6 - New Orleans, LA 9:27 5 - Greater Boston, MA 9:54 4 - San Francisco -Oakland, CA 10:48 3 - Los Angeles, CA 12:10 Inequality and Urbanism 12:47 Honorable Mentions (5 US Metros with lowest GINI Coefficients) 14:22 Dishonorable Mentions 15:03 2 - Miami, FL 15:43 1 - NYC, NY

[@jasonhaworth3753]

“Income inequality is a statement of a societies values. The idea that people who are born rich or got lucky or won the big brain sweepstakes, or lost the debilitating addiction sweepstakes. That those things which are arbitrarily doled out determine whether you deserve to live a life of dignity let alone a life of opulence.” Wow what a great quote

[@danovee9580]

Is it possible that some of the rich got there by hard work, bringing themselves up from the bottom, without "connections" etc.?

[@kryptonsa36]

@@danovee9580 That would be the "get lucky sweepstakes", "big brain sweepstakes", or both.

[@birbluv9595]

I know this is a US video - and you did mention a couple of international places (I think), but where opulence on one block vs poverty in the next block first struck me was Phnom Penh. Since then I’ve seen numerous others. Go to India, where people who have literally nothing hunch on the “sidewalk” under a piece of fabric attached to the high walls surrounding a palatial estate.

[@Jon_Nadeau_]

​@@danovee9580Yup, I think that's what the big brain sweepstakes category is for. Which is good cause the majority of the wealthy worked for it. Very few were just born lucky.

[@alquinn8576]

@@danovee9580 yeah, at some level, if you believe in a deterministic universe, free will is illusory and all moral judgements are absurd. but even so, different policies will have different causal outcomes, so we should want to institute policies _as if_ there is free will, and thus, reward people who are willing to work hard and contribute more than those who don't.

[@CityLover117]

I’m an analytic economics from Binghamton University. Good work using the gini coefficient to display inequality in American cities. I do have to say however, the gini coefficient should be a singular tool in the arsenal of analytics. Ethiopia has a “better” gini score than the US. In fact it’s .35 which is actually really equal. However, most of the country is equally poor. And the average American probably makes 10-14x more than the average Ethiopian with far better access to electricity, clean drinking water, education and healthcare and your typical SoL measurements. Keep up the good work! Love the channel.

[@aimxdy8680]

USAs income inequality comes from a strong upper class and high earners, Most countries income inequality comes from too much poverty. GINI can be misleading if not used right.

[@szurketaltos2693]

Citynerd did cover this in the California cities discussion though, talking about how LA is less top heavy but still more unequal by Gini than SJ/SF.

[@rexx9496]

More equality isn't helpful if it just means everyone is equally miserable.

[@npgibson69]

I believe the GINI for the whole human race is something like .67. That explains a lot about migration and politics. IMO it’s disgraceful.

[@CesarHuizarZ]

​​@@rexx9496not always, Denmark, Finland and UK have more equality and by western standars have better life than USA citizens (Universal Helathcare, Public transport, healthier cheaper food, less crime)

[@hilupianoservice]

I'm glad to see my beloved Chi Town and Twin Cities aren't on the list. :) The fact that a librarian and a piano technician can live 3 blocks away from the best park in the metro speaks to the availability of mildly affordable housing stock here, but the low income neighborhoods need more investment, big time. Rising property values along the light rail corridors are forcing the residents out as developers rent most if not all of their units at "market" rates, which is a BS term in the first place.

[@teunsmits6586]

I think what always strikes me is how in the US local and regional governments are resonsible for sourcing the funds for their budgets pretty much all on their own. Here in the Netherlands (I know, cliché) municipalities tend to get a majority of their funds from the national government and the provinces get 25% of their funding (collectively) this way. It's not a perfect solution but it does help to get poor localities to avoid the vicious circle of decreasing tax base > lower funds > decreasing tax base.

[@drippiehippie]

I bring this up all the time when people complain about European income tax rates. In most European countries you'll pay a high percentage income tax, but that it. Sales taxes are all included in prices which makes it feel like they don't exist. In the US, the federal income tax might be low, but you have state income taxes, municipal income taxes, property taxes, and a sales tax that gets tacked on at the ends of your purchase. And all of these hyper localized taxes exacerbate inequality and you end up paying just about the same percentage of income (unless you're wealthy).

[@aimxdy8680]

⁠@@drippiehippieAccording to the OCED, Average single american worker paid 24.8% in taxes including state, local etc, meanwhile Netherlands was 27.7%, not to mention Pay and disposable discretionary income is Higher in the US.

[@aimxdy8680]

@@drippiehippieMost of the income inequality in the US is from Upper MIDDLE class. Over 20% of americans make over 150K a year, that’s more than the 11.5% of americans living below the average household poverty line of 22500 USD, heck 12% of americans make over 200K per year.

[@nelus7276]

​@@drippiehippieI've lived in Europe all my life and I don't know how you make this up. I pay income tax, dividend taxes, 21% FFS sales taxes, property tax, property transfer tax, municipal tax, energy tax, water management tax, garbage tax, health care tax, etc, et ffing cetera.

[@josephmorris7447]

Your politics are not annoying. I truly appreciate your views and what you do on this channel.

[@NothingXemnas]

I think what sells it for me is the way he presents his stance. It isn't pushy or petty. He is just someone who studied and worked on the matter he talks about and presents his own views and tools to show why he agrees or disagrees with either sides of the political spectrum. Plus, he had admitted before he is "in the spectrum", so his views are a lot more subtle and nuanced, making his presentation on the matter a lot less emotional and extremist, while still being loaded with intelligent sarcasm.

[@alquinn8576]

he's an indigo blob lefty, but he's funny and self-deprecating, so on balance, he's a good guy

[@NothingXemnas]

@@alquinn8576 What does "indigo" and "blob" mean? Is this politicized teenager jargon?

[@alquinn8576]

@@NothingXemnasno, actually this is a term Nate Silver (of electoral prediction/fivethirthyeight fame) coined in an essay written last year on the idealogical monoculture that is mainstream media.

[@willtrimble9101]

@@alquinn8576 I think the whole point of that essay was how the mainstream media ISN'T an ideological monoculture... maybe you should reread?

[@danielbatmanj349]

as a dc area resident, my off the dome idea as to why we do so well is bc of the stability of gov and gov contractor jobs

[@omarrolle3842]

There’s also really good mass transit in DC so lower socioeconomic people have more opportunities to get to higher paying jobs without a car

[@dmike3507]

Makes sense, that must be true of Fairbanks as well. No one in their right mind would live there if it weren't for the military.

[@danielbatmanj349]

new york also has good mass transit and it tops the list tho@@omarrolle3842

[@critiqueofthegothgf]

really loving the recent topics you've been covering recently; highlighting the intersections between urbanism and deeper, adjacent societal and socioeconomic concepts/issues is super important

[@nerds-nonsense]

"CityNerd" is hella accurate, this is said with so much love for what you do.

[@edwardmiessner6502]

Not surprised to see Miami up on the list as #2. It has the most unaffordable housing and lowest real wages of any metro area in the country.

[@xlerb2286]

I grew up in a sparsely populated area and Miami was the first "big city" I ever visited. It was a real shock for me to see such a difference between the poor and the wealthy. Where I grew up the poor had an old Chevy and the rich had a new Cadillac. But they both had a roof over their heads, didn't go to bed hungry, and an honest shot at improving their situation.

[@Wadecounty]

It's also infested with local politicians who have absolutely no interest in doing anything to help their constituents.

[@xlerb2286]

@@Wadecounty I can believe it. I wouldn't do well there. We were there for a trade show and when we were setting up the booth the whole day there was a fellow there watching our booth making sure we didn't pick up a tool, not even so much as a screwdriver. And it took us a day to do what should have been an hour long setup job because we had to wait for a rep to unroll the carpet, we couldn't do that ourselves. Another wait for another rep to plug in our demo computer to the outlet, etc. You expect a bit of a shakedown when you are exhibiting at a trade show but that place was crazy.

[@aimxdy8680]

Well, actually the lowest real wage is Los angeles and some deep south cities, but Miami is a close second.

[@wilber504]

@@xlerb2286 that's unions for you. experienced the same thing in New Orleans for trade show set up. come take down - not a union guy in sight.

[@johngorman6641]

The DC region has a lower GINI because the federal pay scale caps pay for higher earners and tends to pay well for lower skilled jobs. For example, in DC, the GS scale caps at $191,900 and the minimum for almost all GS employees is like $42,000. Even federal jobs outside of the GS scale tend to follow a similar trend. 364,000 people are employed in the region. This results in a a high median income for the region (mostly due to high salaries for workers on the lower end of the income range).

[@mariaansley1519]

Yup. Janitors can make 17-20+ dollars per hour 1.5x overtime.

[@oleogabalo]

I lived in Mayagüez until one month before turning 50. I loved growing up there. It was a safe, tight community with class permeability and great baseball. It was a manufacturing city but got de-industrialized fast in the 90s. Most factories left to CAFTA and China and the new economic trends like tech did not take hold. Its not beautiful since all historic architecture has been destroyed and has no beaches so tourism has not developed. I left in 2020. I miss it, I don't miss what it is but what it was. Que tristeza...

[@TheGrades90]

As a New Yorker, it's fun to see us at/near the top of your lists, but this is a sad one. It's a constant battle, trying to find space to live where you're not losing money on rent. I've worked many jobs over the years, had to move because of the cost of rent, slept in shared rooms with strangers just to meet my rent. Even though I've started making middle-class income, I still feel like I'm looking over my shoulder, expecting my landlord to pull something illegal to price me out--all while my girl and I are enduring persistent structural issues, mold/water damage in our building. It's a great city, but it costs a lot to live here.

[@JesusChrist-qs8sx]

New York City more than anywhere else got absolutely fucked by the last 50 years of urban development policies. The lack of adequate transit coupled with all the downzoning and overregulation has forced NYC to take on more than it really should, and fucked over the city's middle class

[@jasonriddell]

@@JesusChrist-qs8sx and it is getting worse with the collapse of the TAX BASE / "hollowing" out of Manhattan

[@szurketaltos2693]

@JC -- I would say the transit is adequate or good in much of the city, though there are certainly glaring deficiencies (crosstown transit, some transit deserts).

[@szurketaltos2693]

@jasonriddell -- the city apparently found more tax revenue than it thought it would have last year, so while there are problems with commercial/WFH, it seems like potentially manageable problems even by this trash mayor.

[@charlienyc1]

​@@szurketaltos2693To me the ridership is way over capacity. Maybe the infrastructure would be sufficient if MTA substantially increased the number of trains it runs. But the switching problems, etc. can easily derail one's entire commute. Much better examples of transit exist in DC & Chicago for example.

[@markmeyer-delvendahl9766]

I am from Germany and I lived in Hoover, Alabama another suburb of Birmingham for ten months as an exchange student. And I have to say the wealth inequalities in the Birmingham metro area are just wild. I did cross country and track and field, so I got to see a few other suburbs and their schools. The whole city of Birmingham is really poor, lots of empty lots, abandoned strip malls and bad roads. Every suburb to the south of downtown on the other hand is pretty average/upper middle class (Homewood, Hoover) to ultra rich (Mountain Brook). Mountain Brook is close to downtown Birmingham, but the mountains in the area act as a strong barrier between the cities, so you don't really notice the proximity. The whole area is extremely car-centric, many residential streets don't have sidewalks. I very much missed sidewalks and riding my bike when I was there. But the people there are also extremely hospitable.

[@laurie7689]

Yes, I was noticing that the map view he was showing for B'Ham didn't really show the natural topography of the area. The main city sits inside a bowl ringed by small mountains. That was a good observation you made. There are quite a few cities, suburbs, etc. that are rich next to those the are poor with very little interaction between them because of the physical barriers created by geography. Even in the mostly middle class small city where I live (not in B'Ham), the hills divide the city into pockets of haves and have nots. We have had to work with the areas geography in planning on where to place housing, business districts, city administration, etc. It has been a struggle for our city to find a suitable location to build its new school when we outgrew the other one. There isn't a lot of flat land in the area I'm in.

[@musicmakerman867]

Part of the divide has to do with the historical layout of the steel industry and the wind blowing pollution in the area across areas where lower-income residents live today. The south portion of Birmingham (ie hoover, homewood, vestavia, mnt brook, are nearly their own city with a stark divide over red mountain.@@laurie7689

[@MB-co6qj]

So what is your German city GINI Mark?

[@Skip6235]

Does the data include the unhoused? I feel like Seattle is conspicuously absent from this list, but that may be because the poorest people are forced completely out of housing and are almost entirely unhoused. If they aren’t being counted, than that really doesn’t paint the entire inequality picture.

[@Jester-uh9xg]

The US Census does include the homeless if they are at shelters, soup kitchens, or other kinds of services focused on them.

[@julietardos5044]

@@Jester-uh9xg I briefly worked at the Census. They did count homeless people living under bridges and in parks, etc, not just at shelters/soup kitchens.

[@xenotiic8356]

From what I see, yes they did, and it seems that's just how bad the rest of the country is.

[@dagwould]

Democrat policies at busily and ineffectively at work.

[@MB-xe8bb]

@@dagwould Alabama and Mississippi are Republican states, and I keep seeing videos and statistics that show they are hell-holes.

[@kettlemoraine1]

DC is waaaayyy more equitable than NY, SF, Boston, Miami, etc., because it's absolutely *dominated* by high-paying federal government jobs. Everyone I knew at the U.S. EPA (including me) had a nice six-figure salary, and the probability of anyone getting fired was basically zero. So, while we were all passionate about EPA's mission (protecting human health and the environment), it was extremely low-pressure work, with very high salaries (and a pension that's nothing compared to what it was 30 years ago, but it's still a decent pension). People didn't want to say it out loud, but we were all overpaid. But we DID talk about the "golden handcuffs" ALL the time. :) I was one of the few who quit before the "minimum retirement age" (typically 56!). I had saved enough to live modestly for the next several decades, exploring cities and enjoying amazing content like @CityNerd. :) No need to line your grave with gold. :)

[@charlienyc1]

Nice work if you can get it.

[@buffalokody]

Being a Utah resident and someone who was raised in the LDS faith my theory for SLC is not that we have a particularly strong social safety net in the government, being a very conservative state we defintley do not, and while being a member of the LDS faith does give you one more source for potential financial aid if needed I don't really think it is that either. What I do think it might be is the LDS church's historical emphasis on higher education, for a smallish state we have a very high level of college educated folks which I think leads to a larger white collar middle class than other American cities. At the same time being a historically smaller and somewhat culturally and geographically isolated state we don't have any mega corporations with super high paid employees, so I think a lot of our populace falls in the middle income category. Let me know if you decide to do a deeper dive into SLC and Utah, the religious culture here has defintley lead to some interesting and often contradictory outcomes that don't really align with anywhere else in the country.

[@Luredreier]

5:51 Just because there's more people in urban areas does *not* mean that people from urban areas *should* be running things. The issue in the US is more that US election results are binary in nature instead of trying to ensure that everyone has a say. By contrast in my own country we have a system where there's far more people in our parliament from rural areas because those areas have more seats in our parliament, yet we also have a system that the seat distribution between political parties in the parliament closely reflects the proportion of voters they got nationwide. So a urban voter might end up voting in a politican that's guaranteed to be from a rural constituency. It ensures that you get people from all parts of the country represented yet also that the overall agenda of the country aligns fairly well with the majority of the population. We have 10 political parties in our parliament right now. And the proportionality only really breakes down for political parties with less then 4% of the national votes in our system, parties that's still represented, but that will have a different amount of seats compared to their number of votes due to our electoral system, favouring rural areas over urban ones. I've mostly lived in cities, and my chosen political party is the party suffering the most from our system, but I'm glad that we have it despite how it devalues our votes a little bit, if we manage to get more then 4% we'll automatically correct for that disadvantage, yet this ensures that rural areas don't feel ignored.

[@mynameisbill69]

You should really consider visiting New Orleans one day, as you said the city is one of the most unique ones in the country, and it’s great for visitors. We are doing lots of cool things to make the city more walkable and accessible but yeah the economic divide between classes is stark.

[@CaribouEno]

I will never set foot and spend my money in states where they want to begin databases of all pregnant women and controlling every step they do, and wanting to ban them from traveling out of state. I also do not want to put money in states allowing book bans in universities and school etc ... Sorry guys.

[@angellacanfora]

I adore New Orleans, have spent a lot of time there over the years. Such a colorful, rich culture. A wonderful place for both lovers of history and artists. I've come close to moving there but oppressive humidity just doesn't do it for me!

[@charlienyc1]

​@@angellacanforaI'm guessing you missed the comment in the middle about the oppressive state politics.

[@angellacanfora]

@@charlienyc1 I'm allowed to love New Orleans regardless of how fucked up Louisiana state politics are, thanks.

[@Marlin2231]

We have no books left in Florida. They are all gone. 😬

[@ScavengerDLC]

I’m a public policy student and thank you for making this video about the Gini coefficient! It’s often talked about on a national level in my undergraduate classrooms and I hadn’t thought to measure the gini coefficient of individual cities

[@Z80nerdcave]

Your visual explanation of the Gini Coefficient was done better than what most professors provide.

[@michaelsiler5023]

The only way an urban area can exist is if the rural population is extremely productive. The production of food and raw materials is what fuels a city. So no people in the city shouldn’t just run things that could potentially harm the productivity of the rural population. The populations have different priorities and benefit from that.

[@vaderbuckeye36]

Raleigh is probably high due to the number of government offices and universities in the area.

[@Zero-Gravity-Ind]

I live in Raleigh and if I had to guess I'd say it's a mix of being spread out fairly far and having a wide range of solid jobs (tech, colleges, biochemistry, etc). Plus for years now I've seen even gas stations offering to pay over 15/hour. Also, it doesn't have a highly desired downtown, so while it is more expensive downtown, it's not crazy. All the tech people inexplicably seem to move here to live way out of the city proper. Blows my mind (as a tech person about to move to the heart of Chicago).

[@CreepyBlackDude]

This was a really great video, very informative. And I literally laughed out loud when you Googled how to report a pothole in Fairbanks, because I did watch your last live stream!

[@johnperniciaro785]

Those of us who by accident of fate were fortunate enough to have seen our once great cities with strong & prosperous working classes (NYC for example, before the unraveling of the 70's) could bring you almost to tears with our stories of cities where broadly speaking not-rich families/people had access to so much of what our American Civilization the envy of the world.

[@nathanrooney2027]

I’m very surprised to see Pittsburgh did not make this list. Our Gini number for the city is .4996 and the whole metro area is .46. I think it’s easy for me to think my own place of residence is special in some good or bad way. For example, I was so surprised that Pittsburgh wasn’t one of the worst cities in the country for surface level parking in the downtown center. One of the reasons I love your videos is that forces me to consider the national perspective on these issues.

[@everacite]

DMV theories - DC/MD have pretty strong safety nets (relative to US cities), a lot of workers (especially workers who hold college/advanced degrees) receiving federal salaries lower than what they would earn in a non-federal job, a strong and constant demand for relatively well (compared to other parts of the US) compensated job that don’t require a college degree in roles in the government (e.g. custodians, security, maintenance, etc) Edit: also DC seems relatively more integrated in terms of income levels which might provide more opportunities for more benefits financially for less wealthy individuals compared to other US cities Edit 2: also even though the average and median rent is kinda high in DC, there is also plenty of housing that is relatively affordable that is metro accessible if you had a lower income and wanted to take advantage of the access and urbanism of the core of the city

[@Merzui-kg8ds]

I visited Tampa, FL about 9 years ago and was shocked when one resident straight-faced bragged that his neighborhood was not close to public transportation. I was slow on picking up the implications of that statement, but I got there eventually.

[@lauramoore8823]

Similarly, my father in law moved out of Gresham, OR when they put the max in out that far. Wild to me, but I guess I live in a town of 2,000 people now (at least it's walkable!)

[@tealkerberus748]

Next question: what is the ideal distribution of wealth? How much is enough disparity to provide incentives for the people who can work harder and smarter to do that and thus enrich and progress their society, without unjustly punishing those who for whatever reason aren't able to do that?

[@chefnyc]

I think high GINI coefficient is more dangerous for cities than for countries. It is "more" acceptable to have income/wealth/cost discrepancies in different parts of the country. However, the inequality becomes more disturbing as the circle narrows down. Especially when the public transportation is bad and your teacher/cashier has to get stuck is car traffic 2-3 hours of the day. One of the small niceties of NYC is fixed price for the subway system. I wish the subway system reached longer distances with ~$3/ride or ~$130/month.

[@szurketaltos2693]

$3/ride is only 10c/ride more though. I feel like $5/ride would be very reasonable for 2 borough rides.

[@chefnyc]

@taltos2693 I am not proposing to charge 10cents more. As you saw, I put ~ sign to show that these prices are the current approximate prices. I didn't mention exact prices, because maybe someone will read my comments 3 years later 😛

[@szurketaltos2693]

@@chefnychm, so you mean you want the subways to be substantially expanded on all directions and keep the $3ish cost? If that could be done it would be great, but I suspect the MTA is not capable of doing so.

[@chefnyc]

If we can subsidize car owners by free street parking (when an equivalent parking would cost $50/day), I am sure we can subsidize people who are not fortunate enough to drive around with a giant SUV. Note: I am lucky enough to have to ride the subway for 3-5 stops at most and I still pay $2.90 per ride. Flat fare between the 4 boroughs actually reduces the rent pressure in Manhattan. Imagine the subway also reached Hoboken, Jersey City and more.

[@szurketaltos2693]

@@chefnyc the NYC subway is already quite subsidized, which is the correct thing to do of course. But what I'm saying is that the MTA lacks the institutional capability to substantially expand for a reasonable, that is within the realm of possibility, cost. I would love for that to change.

[@ecurewitz]

Can confirm, there used to be a massive disparity between rich and poor in the Boston area, same goes for Connecticut

[@DietmarEugen]

I checked the gini coefficients for my metro area (Zürich/Switzerland) and they are just around 0.3 for income, but 0.84 for assets.

[@Jessica_P_Fields]

I love Zürich! From what I've heard, workers in Zürich are generally paid well enough to pay bills/rent but not enough to save significantly. Also, I've heard that it's really difficult to buy property there. So I suppose the disparate GINI numbers would make sense there. It's interesting to think about.

[@DietmarEugen]

@@Jessica_P_Fields Yes, there's a lot of inherited wealth, and not just a few people who are paid very high salaries and can accumulate assets. Property prices are insane: A one-bedroom flat (around 60 sq m) goes for 1.5 million at least, in the outer areas of the city.

[@Bizcachi]

As Puerto Rican resident, there are many reasons I can point to to why it is this way (including colonialism) but widespread corruption within the state government is a BIG one

[@matthewhall5571]

The federal government never set you guys up for success from the very beginning. Whether it's the Jones Act or Congress eliminating some of the support that used to bring jobs to the island. They have been screwing Puerto Rico for decades and they will keep doing it until a day comes when we finally have a SCOTUS with enough honor to point out that the treatment we give Puerto Rico, DC, and the US territories, is not actually a democratic republic like our Constitution claims it should be and it must be changed.

[@angellacanfora]

I'm dying to go to Puerto Rico and visit the land where my grandfather hailed from. Do you feel like PR is ignored by the US or does the fed government rule with a heavy hand?

[@stevedolan8095]

My belief is that Statehood would make this better, but I have no idea if that is true?

[@guerillawhite3083]

@@stevedolan8095 to me, as someone who has done a lot of reading on this, the only option is independence

[@MB-xe8bb]

I am familiar with a company trying to build something in Puerto Rico, and the government corruption and incompetence has delayed this for 5 years past where it should have been built already, and it still hasn't even received government approvals to start. I remember reading that even a woman from FEMA was charged with corruption, and FEMA was supposed to supervise the government to PREVENT corruption from interfering.

[@clawsoon]

An interesting data point from your neighbour: The highest Gini coefficient for a Canadian city is around 0.33, for Toronto (according to the Statistics Canada infographic "Income inequality highest in Toronto, Calgary and Vancouver".) I wonder why even the lowest American cities are ~0.1 higher than the highest Canadian city.

[@noseboop4354]

Canada's second largest city, Montreal, even breaks the 0.3 floor, at only 0.296

[@mayam9575]

Could be how the data is collected. I don't know if he is using pre or post tax numbers. Progressive taxes and social services like food stamps will swing a city by that much or more. It could also be a boundaries thing. He is looking at whole metro areas. This sounds like it is just looking at the city itself. Does Toronto have wealthy suburbs?

[@eugenetswong]

I'm not surprised to see Toronto at the top. I thought that Ottawa would, though. Maybe we get lower numbers, because we're less political? I don't know for sure, but I get the impression that even when we make bad decisions, it's just a bit more business oriented than political. America has the strongest lobbies, legal attack organizations, and unions.

[@clawsoon]

@@mayam9575 Interesting questions. I found a map from datalabto called "The most detailed income map of Toronto you've ever seen", and it shows basically all the suburbs as being part of "Toronto census division". I'm not sure if that's what StatsCan would've used in their definition of Toronto for the Gini coefficient calculation, though. On that map, it looks like the richest and poorest areas are in Toronto itself. That might be partly because Toronto was amalgamated with a bunch of its suburbs in the 1990s, so poorer areas like Jane and Finch were joined into the same city as richer areas like Rosedale. The suburbs that are still suburbs (Mississauga, Brampton, Vaughn, Markham) look like they're a mix of richer (Vaughn, Mississauga) and poorer (Brampton, Markham) than Toronto itself.

[@znail4675]

@@mayam9575 Canada is just that different from USA. The main two factors that differs between places with High or low Gini index is if there are lots of poor people and if all jobs gets a decent salary or not.

[@blakem2258]

You are absolutely correct about Mountain Brook, AL. I grew up in Birmingham - that flyover of downtown was rough! I would love to hear you teardown Hwy 280 at its stroadiest.

[@joebehrdenver]

Sioux Falls, in my home state of SD has a very-low-for-the-US Gini. It's not the most "exciting" place but it is very livable for regular people, and growing like a weed.

[@Soporificat]

One explanation for why the Gini number is that low in DC is that a large proportion of professionals in the city are federal government workers who are paid according to a set pay scale. This pay scale has a cap, and at the higher ends, with senior, highly educated people, they are getting a much lower income than they would otherwise get in other industries.

[@Geoffology]

DC has been building new housing at a faster rate than other places in the last few years. It's more affordable in the DMV than people think!

[@denislomakin247]

This was my thought, there’s also a large older housing stock that’s been well preserved and rent controlled, in addition to new more expensive housing construction which absorbs a lot of the transplants.

[@GeeEm1313]

Lol. I guess you've never been to Bethesda, Potomac, or half of Fairfax County.

[@Geoffology]

@@GeeEm1313 what about Rockville, south arlington, Annandale, silver spring, etc.

[@silverscrub]

My apartment in admo is $2400, the same apartment in silver spring is like $2200. It is not remotely affordable, don’t be ridiculous

[@Geoffology]

@@silverscrub you can live in Arlington for $1500, no one is making you live in AdMo.

[@mauzedp]

"Its hard to have a great city if the only people who can enjoy it are in the 75th percentile" - YEP! For the past several decades politicians in power here had a constituency that literally rewarded them for neglecting the urban poor. Politicians in europe from all stripes saw their urban poor as potential supporters, and thus invested in them. Politicians in this country saw their urban poor as others who could be conveniently vilified, while their main voters and support base where busy fleeing to the suburbs to escape desegregation. They had their financiers in the oil and auto industry, and voters all too eager to buy cars and fuel to live far away from the "frightening" (i.e. desegregated) city centers.

[@patrickboldea599]

DC probably shows up because government workers are a much larger portion of the population there. They have standardized pay scales and make relatively high incomes, but not astonishingly high incomes.

[@kjh23gk]

What's the cost of living like in DC?

[@patrickboldea599]

@@kjh23gk pretty damn high. My best estimate would be somewhere a bit south of NYC prices.

[@daveharrison84]

2:38 the most unequal countries also have the highest crime. the most equal countries have the lowest crime.

[@isaacliu896]

Ed Glaeser covers this in "Triumph of the City". Cities are the most unequal places not because they create poverty (and in fact they do the opposite to a massive extent), but because they are places where the poor move for opportunity. It's especially true in the developing world - millions crowd into Mumbai slums because, as bad as it may seem to us, it's seen as better than being in a rural Indian village.

[@alquinn8576]

under-rated point!

[@bluebook709]

I remember the Gini Coefficient from college (BS Finance 1996). It is the measure of wealth inequality in a given economy. To say mankind has struggled with it is a gross understatement. So much of human history has had this rooted in it yet it is something few people know about or think of. Inequality is at a historic point now where it will be not just causing wars and destroying cities, it could end humanity entirely, or at least civilization. We have probably never been closer to nuclear annihilation other than a few days in October 1963. I will say this, when Gini gets too distorted it wrecks the meaning of the legal tender and corrupts capitalism. A lot of people are down on capitalism because of it, but they are judging capitalism that is what I call kleptocapitalism, real basic capitalism is the most efficient way to produce goods and services and distribute them, and it works as long as greed is kept in check. This is done through tax policy which has now in the US been replace by sneaky rich/government borrowing in your name and giving 100% of the benefit to the wealthy in the form of lower, even no taxes at all. They have an even sneakier way to market this by saying that they have to protect "job creators." In other words you would have nothing unless you allow the extremely wealthy to rape you economically, it has spawned a whole fascist political party, and they have always attempted to keep the masses at just a subsistence level to the point where people do not revolt. But not a dollar more. Thus a few thousand individuals/families now control over 90% of all wealth in the US. They also use corrupted and even fictional data to support this theft of labor. Take the CPI for example, the federal government claims there has been 18.8% inflation since the end of 2019. My experience as a homeowner is that is is probably a lot closer to 58.8% and worse it is concentrated in goods and services we are either required by law to buy, or to meet survival needs. The result is about a 30-40 percent drop in living standards for people on a fixed income. Many of you will not have noticed this trend as sharply because your income has risen much farther than those who get raises of the government CPI only, if you were stuck on the COLA we have gotten you would be questioning your very ability to even pay for a roof over your head.

[@jacobastfalk7643]

Salt Lake resident here and very proud to see this number. I’d image a lot of what benefits our inequality numbers here is the having a relatively balanced mix of industries (and overall healthy job market). I think a lot of the high inequality places on this list fall into one of the following buckets: 1. Big concentration of ultra high-paying industries (tech/finance/government/higher ed) compared to the low paid service industry employees that provide the amenities for the wealthy. 2. Rust belt economy with many declining industries where general wages are stagnant or falling while the local elites who made their money during the good times are cruising off of their investments. Social policy definitely plays a role in shaping inequality, but given the similarities throughout the US I think this list mostly reflects the consequences of local industries.

[@knishofdeath]

#1 definitely explains the dynamic in Seattle. I work at UW where salaries have barely budged in 20-30 years, while cost of living has skyrocketed. Anyone outside of Boeing, Amazon, Microsoft, etc. does not make enough to live. God forbid you're a service worker here. They've raised the minimum wage a lot and that's good, but haven't done anything to control the cost of housing. We also have some of the highest grocery prices in the country.

[@stephenlight647]

Local culture has an outsized influence as well.

[@jacobastfalk7643]

I’ve spent a lot of time in Seattle and this definitely lines up with my understanding. The grown of tech and relative decline of unionized manufacturing/logistics kills a lot of solid middle-class jobs and replaces them with a few high paying ones and a LOT of low paying ones. This process is very hard for local governments to address but I think we need to acknowledge that it’s probably the largest factor here. I’m anticipating the “we don’t have this type of inequality in Texas (or Utah)” type of people here to show that the inequality is DESPITE more redistributive policies, not because of them.

[@cmbakerxx]

I think you are a little off 1. This is mostly correct. The expensive cities like NYC, LA, San Fran have large numbers of very high paying jobs (finance/business, entertainment, tech) but still require large numbers of low paying service sector jobs. 2. Rust belt and former industrial cities have large numbers of unemployed or part time workers as there are not enough jobs for the population. The well paying jobs are not as numerous nor as well paying as in the expensive cities but that is balanced by large numbers of very poor which drives the Gini number. The wealthy elite mostly leave the cities to chase profits in growing regions or to enjoy their profits in better climates.

[@jmlinden7]

@@jacobastfalk7643 Texas and Utah have less poverty when accounting for local cost of living (California is the highest along with DC). They also have fewer billionaires than bigger cities along the coasts. Those two factors combine to reduce inequality regardless of any government policies or lack thereof. They also have more robust blue collar job markets compared to cities like New Orleans or Birmingham which help keep the working class afloat. This part you could argue is related to government policies in some way but it's a bit of a stretch.

[@jw77019]

When I became an adult in the early 1980s it was possible to live decently on an entry level pay rate with a high school diploma. It was easy to work up the ranks as a white collar office worker and buy some nice things and take trips during the three weeks of paid vacation I received. That is no longer possible.

[@Sp4mMe]

Interestingly, Germany, which has a lower GINI index overall seems to have worse or as bad numbers for many of its large cities. They are around 0.5 on average, slightly below and above usually, but some can get quite high. Heidelberg for example 0.56, Düsseldorf 0.54, Frankfurt a.M. 0.53 etc. They also all seem to trend towards getting worse.

[@wernerrietveld]

If you only measure within city limits it makes sense to me. My impression is that suburbs, just outside city limits houses a lot of middle class people, who want and can afford a good big house, but not in the central city. Poorer people stay in old small houses there, while rich people can afford shiney skyscrapers, repurposed industrial lofts and the likes.

[@patrickboldea599]

It’s not surprising. Financial and high productive industry sectors produce a lot of inequality because they bring a lot of high income earners to an area while also often times being the places where desperate and the poor have to come for any opportunity or access to quality services. That’s kinda common sense to some degree. It’s part of why I think this analysis is kinda nonsense at a metro level.

[@Sp4mMe]

@@patrickboldea599 I don't think it's surprising that cities are worse than rural areas (though it's far from being a given - lower population in rural areas also makes the effect of a few wealthy people, if there are any, way more pronounced), however, I do think it's somewhat of a surprise that a) US cities don't actually look all that bad in this comparison, so perhaps further investigation how this compares globally is warranted b) there's been a massive increase in a relatively short time. Munich seems to have gone from around 0.3 in 2005 to 0.5 in 2023. No "it's just always like that" in a city about this, clearly.

[@patrickboldea599]

@@Sp4mMe I cannot speak directly to Munich in particular with a ton of expertise, but generally speaking a lot of the reason why GINI coefficients in American cities are so bad is not because “the billionaires.” It’s because we’ve seen a lot of professional class jobs offer increasingly higher salaries while labor class jobs really have not grown at a corresponding level. It’s also kind of a trick of how you measure inequality. If I make 100k and you make 10k and we both get a 5% raise, the gap between us has widened even if our relative incomes increased by the same amount.

[@aimxdy8680]

In america, the income inequality is mostly from having too much High Earners, in most countries it’s from too much poverty.

[@CharlietheTuxie]

DC has the highest proportion of students in the country. Many students actually live in the district, while many workers commute from MD or VA.

[@hectorquinones5579]

I wasn't expecting my college town to show up here. I don't know if you knew, but Mayagüez is a major college town in Puerto Rico.

[@EricWort]

Would be interesting to see the college town Gini coefficients with and without the students

[@jennifertomaiolo]

It bums me out NYC gets such a bad rep - the rich in Manhattan are way too rich and we need a stronger wealth tax, a second/third home tax, and an unused homes/commerical spaces tax. But, But I feel like NYC is one of the only place in USA that one can shed that albatross of a car and still live a very mobile life. I've been here for 35 years and seen the way so many neighborhood have changed, but I still live in an area with a public hospital, community art center, excellent public transportation and a rent stabilized apartment (oh and a community garden) on an income that I can't survive in any of the surrounding states/counties. Where else can I have a $1200/month one bedroom apt with a job in walking distance and the trains to bring me all over three neighboring states and a public hospital in case something goes wrong? idk, NYC def has its issues, but I also think we are doing some things right you just have to look past Manhattan prices - I just jump on the subway to go to the Met or Central Park. But, yes I am fighting for even more - joined the community board... Edit: Queens and Bronx are the places to go now. Manhattan has been hollowed out by money and Brooklyn also great but been overly gentrified - imho

[@juliac6256]

where are there $1200 apartments?!?

[@Demopans5990]

@juliac6256 Flushing

[@szurketaltos2693]

Most people don't have a rent stabilized apartment that cheap though, you got in at a good time. But yes, agree Brooklyn is a bad deal unless you're rich. Might as well just live in Manhattan unless you like hipster vibes or awful commutes from Ocean Park.

[@charlienyc1]

Try Chicago if you want transit and relative affordability. It's much cleaner, too!

[@juliac6256]

@@charlienyc1 i hear great things about chicago. i went there as a kid but i would love to go back to see if it’s somewhere i could move

[@stylo90]

A lot of people talking about our DC-area good government jobs without talking about how those payscales and working conditions got that way: Labor unions. The federal government is more unionized than nearly any private sector employer its size. Labor unions fought for those payscales that are now the envy of the country, and set the standard for private sector contractors. Our area also has some of the better tenant and housing protections in the country, with TOPA laws in DC and minimum affordable unit regulations in Montgomery County MD. It got that way because of decades of homegrown activists fighting for their right to live in the area. Those fights are ongoing - see the Stomp Out Slumlords movement. A very wide-ranging and fast Metro system allows for long commutes across the region without needing to purchase a car. Lastly, DC and MoCo have been hotbeds of progressivism for several decades at least, and NoVA is rapidly trending that direction as well and swinging Virginia blue. Politics matters!! Glad to see you touching on it.

[@kennethridesabike]

I think what would’ve been helpful is showing Gini coefficients for cities outside of the US just to show how US cities stack against top of mind international cities

[@alquinn8576]

a quick google gave me this (no idea if true): "Of the 290 OECD regions covered, London has the third highest Gini coefficient (0.58), only behind Corsica and Brussels" Brussels?! 🤯

[@matilda2895]

@@alquinn8576 On top of being the capital of Belgium, Brussels is basically the capital of European Union with many of the most important EU institutions being there. NATO headquarters are also located in Brussels. In Europe, if you want to be close to power, you want to be in Brussels. There’s goverment officials, politicians, their assistants, diplomats, lobbyists, CEOs etc. Honestly, i’m not that surprised that there may not be much left for the average person - since the significant ”industries” mostly employ highly educated people from other countries, the locals can’t really benefit from them in the same way they could benefit from tourism or exporting products for example. I have not researched this or anything, this is just my guess based on my personal experience of visiting there.

[@alquinn8576]

@@matilda2895 yet in the US, Washington D.C. is much lower. Why would the seat of EU administration be different than the US?

[@matilda2895]

@@alquinn8576 Interesting point! I wonder how they get those numbers - could citizenship affect it? If in D.C. the people who work for government etc. are still US citizens but in Belgium they’re mostly citizens of other EU countries, still paying taxes to their respective home countries while working in Brussels, maybe that could affect the statistics? (In case they don’t have access to other countries’ citizens tax/income data)

[@alquinn8576]

@@matilda2895 often, metrics for such things are harmonized to a good extent across the OECD, but in the case of Gini, you are possibly right that it is an issue with definition and/or measurement method

[@sea80vicvan]

I thought Seattle would be in the top 10 for certain, surprised that it isn't. I do think trips to Salt Lake City and New Orleans would be good ideas for future videos, both have distinguishing factors about them historically and socially that aren't present in other US cities, and an examination of both would be insightful.

[@ogzombieblunt4626]

Gini uses household data, not per capita. If you use household data rather than per capita this makes income inequality seem larger than it actually is. This is because a household with 4 earners making 40k per year this household is in the top 10%, which inflates the total wealth/income in the top 50% (especially top 20%). I would careful making inequality claims only on the gini coefficient.

[@alquinn8576]

I can see a possible effect in the other direction as well: poorer individuals might be more likely to live together and share fixed living costs (e.g rent). But the overall decline in household size and aging of population add other layers of complication to this, such that the headline numbers may not be easy to intepret

[@ogzombieblunt4626]

@@alquinn8576 I get what you're saying, if 4 people making 20k per year lived together that would reduce the total # of households in the bottom 20%. However the net effect of using household stats instead of per capita is to inflate the perception of inequality as I will explain. People in the 40-80th percentile have more total wealth than in the 0-40th percentile, what this means is that those individuals in the 40-80th percentile will push more total wealth to the top 10% if measured in household stats than 0-40th percentile will into lower brackets. Which means the net effect of using household stats will always be inflating the perception of inequality, as people see misleading charts showing the top 10% holds massive wealth compared to the bottom 90%. These charts seem to be published by certain left wing biased think tanks like the EPI (economic policy institute) and others to seemingly mislead the public, its not like they don't know what they're doing.

[@ogzombieblunt4626]

@@alquinn8576 I get what you're saying, if 4 people making 20k per year lived together that would reduce the total # of households in the bottom 20%. However the net effect of using household stats instead of per capita is to inflate the perception of inequality as I will explain. People in the 40-80th percentile have more total wealth than in the 0-40th percentile, what this means is that those individuals in the 40-80th percentile will push more total wealth to the top 10% if measured in household stats than 0-40th percentile will into lower brackets. Which means the net effect of using household stats will always be inflating the perception of inequality, as people see misleading charts showing the top 10% holds massive wealth compared to the bottom 90%. These charts seem to be published by certain left wing biased think tanks like the economic policy institute and others to seemingly mislead the public, its not like they don't know what they're doing.

[@ogzombieblunt4626]

@@alquinn8576 I get what you're saying, if 4 people making 20k per year lived together that would reduce the total # of households in the bottom 20%. However the net effect of using household stats instead of per capita is to inflate the perception of inequality as I will explain. People in the 40-80th percentile have more total wealth than in the 0-40th percentile, what this means is that those individuals in the 40-80th percentile will push more total wealth to the top 10% if measured in household stats than 0-40th percentile will into lower brackets. Which means the net effect of using household stats will always be inflating the perception of inequality, as people see misleading charts showing the top 10% holds massive wealth compared to the bottom 90%. These charts seem to be published by certain biased think tanks like the economic policy institute and others to seemingly mislead the public, its not like they don't know what they're doing.

[@ogzombieblunt4626]

@@alquinn8576 I get what you're saying, if 4 people making 20k per year lived together that would reduce the total # of households in the bottom 20%. However the net effect of using household stats instead of per capita is to inflate the perception of inequality as I will explain.

[@DrSeaLionMD]

Man, I never thought this was when we would see Raleigh on a CityNerd video

[@themogus]

Hey, don’t worry. We were featured in his “most car dependent cities” list.

[@Adolar]

I love how you’re just saying exactly what you think now. Great takes and info today.

[@Changsnoop]

I do wonder how much state policies affect the Gini coefficient -- for example people who need more social support might find it easier to get back on their feet in California (to its credit), but which could make Californian cities appear more unequal just by virtue of migration.

[@11conormcloughlin]

I live in the New York Metro area in a suburban neighborhood and as a young guy with a middle class background. I’ll say a common conversation among my friend group is where we’re all going to move to because anyone making less than $150,000/year is getting priced out of our neighborhoods. That on top of bad infrastructure and high rents and taxes and the fact the political leadership is failing at all levels. It’s a sad but true reality for a lot of people in my background.

[@KingMikolaj]

yeah i see now why so many people are fleeing nyc to the rust belt. The city is not looking good. Especially with the cost of migrants who are being demonized. I don't see NYC faring to well with its regressive in practice tax policy and sky high rents.

[@jasonriddell]

as a Vancouverite it was 100% the same look through that ads for a flat and can NOT afford one near where you *want* to live OR grew up and are faced with the prospect of LONG car commute as anything near the skytrain OR the west coast express commuter rail is climbing in price quicker then you can earn the down on it

[@travisteall8469]

My theory on grand rapids is the "medical mile" which supplies the city with a huge number of highly paid but not insanely high paid jobs. 2 of the 3 largest employers in the city are large hospitals/ healthcare companies that serve the entire west side of Michigan.

[@ErikLiberty]

I recommend the video: "Prof. Antony Davies: 5 Myths About Inequality" He shows that a snapshot of current income inequality doesn't show us what happens to those same people over time. Also, "Why Wealth Inequality Is Better Than Ever Before" by Logically Answered.

[@alquinn8576]

yup, longitudinal studies are the way to go. also telling that the US's inequality is so "terrible" that literally millions of people illegally enter the country each year for the opportunity to live here

[@gooseberries608]

SF has very strong rent control laws as well as having Prop 13, which allows for many lower income people to stay in the city despite making low wages. My neighbors either have lived here for thirty years and are poor/working class, or they moved here in the last decade and own teslas and work in tech lol. And, of course, the city has many unhoused people who of course don’t make much income. So while many people have been pushed out of SF due to lack of affordability, there are enough lower income people who are somehow able to stay that I don’t find our Gini shocking at all.

[@knishofdeath]

Our household income is $150K+ and with student debt, we can hardly afford to live in a 700 sq ft apartment in Seattle. I have no idea how anyone is supposed to make a comfortable living anymore. Certainly buying anything is probably forever out of reach and it feels like it's only a matter of time before we get priced out. Not sure how families that make considerably less than we do survive at all.

[@birbluv9595]

If you can, don’t live in Seattle. If you can get a job in one of the smaller cities, you’ll find the places I have lived affordable.

[@alquinn8576]

yup, Seattle and (I don't know the local politics there but just gonna guess: NIMBYs) are the problem. I was making $105K in Missouri and renting a 2 bedroom for $515/month 😆

[@jasonriddell]

@@alquinn8576 microsoft and Boeing plus all the DOT COM companies that pay insane amounts have a cousin that programs for microsoft and has since the early 2000s and they are looking to buy in seattle area - I dont know there exact pay but I know as a motor mechanic I could NOT AFFORD TO MOVE THERE and I make over the average and am "more then OK" not in seattle

[@szurketaltos2693]

The answer for most people in your situation who do have houses is probably generational wealth tbh. Which means that if you want to buy, you gotta move either way out to the burbs or to a more affordable city.

[@tblakemusic]

Raleigh NC is an interesting one. I grew up there and recently moved back. I don’t feel like Raleigh has ever really had a big industry that it was “known for.” Maybe there hasn’t been a big industry to increase the wealth gap?? Idk, just my thought process It’s also a very suburban city, I don’t feel like it has much of an identity at all. Just feels like chain restaurants and surface-parking shopping plazas as far as the eye can see. All this to say, there’s tons of working-class job opportunities for people, maybe not as many high-paying opportunities. I’m curious to see how those numbers change in the next decade or so… lots of tech companies are moving here and I’m expecting negative effects for poorer communities in the area.

[@JohnEP223]

Meritocracy is not a lottery. True, there are *some* factors of luck. However, if you punish people who work hard, and reward people who don't, you create more problems than you are trying to solve.

[@useodyseeorbitchute9450]

He tried to go into route that there is a biologic (genetic) lottery, which later determines the of most what we value in merit. (~80% of variance for cognitive skills is explainable by genetics and ~50% of conscientious) I'd say that I'd have to partially agree with him on that point, though he seems not to think it through. In order to "own" some center right people, he had to make an argument that if analyzed in details would be strong and valid endorsement of far-right. Which is an interesting idea for election year, though the US recently does not have that candid candidate...

[@godminnette2]

Grand Rapids is likely on the low Gini Coefficient list for two reasons: 1. It is a fairly sprawling city that contains a larger portion of nearby suburbs than most cities, capturing a larger share of the middle class residing in suburbia. 2. As Grand Rapids started booming in economic growth in the 2010s, they recognized that the impact of the growth was disproportionate and the key compounding factors for it, including many of the things commonly talked about in new urbanism circles, and took action on them. The latter is one of many reasons I'm looking to move to GR in the next decade.

[@rhmendelson]

Interesting…will put some research on the radar to look into what they did. Thanks for the fyi!

[@Nater-Tot-97]

I grew up in Grand Rapids and lived there for 4 years after college. I think another factor here is that salaries for white-collar work in Grand Rapids are lower than for the same jobs in bigger cities. I can attest from personal experience that typical salaries in tech in the GR metro area are much lower than in other parts of the country. On the lower end of the income chart, progressive policies in Michigan in recent years have helped bring up wages for workers who make at or near minimum wage. These 2 opposite forces I think push everyone away from the extremes of incomes, which would by definition result in a lower gini index.

[@rowanbixler4700]

@@Nater-Tot-97 Even as someone who lives in Grand Rapids and grew up here, seeing it as an honorable mention and seeing your's and @godminnette2's explanations is really eye-opening. People from here always like to call it a "perfect sized city" for how many amenities it offers for it's size, but I think the policies used to reduce inequality here are severely underappreciated. Also, there's a reason people rightfully sh!t on East Grand Rapids and the other wealthy suburbs east of the city for separating themselves and not contributing their fair share

[@godminnette2]

@@Nater-Tot-97 I agree with your second point, though I am uncertain of the first. I don't know when you last lived there, but GR saw rapid growth over the 2010s, almost double that of the rest of Michigan and the US. As outlined in their 2019 and 2020 plans: "Data from 2013 shows that out the country’s 52 largest cities, Grand Rapids is the second worst city for economic outcomes for Black Americans, as measured by homeownership, median household income and entrepreneurship or self-employment. "The typical Black household in Grand Rapids earns only half as much as the typical White household, and the rate of unemployment is nearly four times as high for Black workers as for White workers." "When adjusted for inflation, average earnings for all workers in Grand Rapids have decreased by 4% since 2010, while wages for the top earners have increased by roughly 7%." "Although the overall median household income in the city is $45,000, Black and Hispanic households earn $27,000- $39,000, or barely half of the median income for White house-holds ($52,000)." Indeed, when using the tools provided in this video's description, we can see the GINI coefficient rise through the 2010s and into 2020 and 2021, but in 2022 fall back to 2019 levels. How much this is to do with the pandemic's aftereffects, state policy, or city policy I'm uncertain; we'd have to run an analysis on how the rest of the state fared and what policy decisions other municipalities took.

[@cowboyxboombap]

Great points. The odd thing about the GR metro area is that it includes whole ass other cities like Holland, Muskegon, and Big Rapids with literal wilderness in between. People have remote hunting cabins inside of that metro area.

[@linuxman7777]

Say what you will about Religion, but it can be a great tool to help the poor and reduce inequality. I remember reading about how Puritan New England was quite equal because the religion forced people to work, so there was no lower classes, and the religion also had issues with mass accumulation of wealth.

[@quitlife9279]

Great topic and great presentation. Makes for a great video, thank you!

[@darkwingscooter9637]

The comment that "city folk should just run everything" is just assinibe and the sort of mentality that creates 99% of issues in cities.

[@_bats_]

I love the snarky pothole reporting part, having watched your most recent KZbin live reaction. Great stuff. Hopefully you can find easily-Googleable information for us in more future videos.

[@eliharman]

The presumption that wealth can simply be redistributed by policy is pure hubris. It neglects the incontrovertible fact that INCENTIVIZING productive behavior by letting people keep more of their produce (as opposed to redistributing it) leads to MORE production, which under the right conditions, can benefit everyone; while doing the opposite discourages production and leads to less overall wealth to go around. I'm not saying there are NEVER suitable rationale for redistribution to reduce inequality, but anyone who can't acknowledge this fact up front, and can't grapple with the dismal and disastrous track record of redistributionist policies throughout history to achieve their stated ends or deliver their promised benefits, can certainly NEVER be trusted to implement or administer a redistribution scheme. 50% of South Africans are wholly dependent for sustenance on the proceeds of redistribution. And it's STILL one of the most unequal countries in the world. Obviously, naive, idealistic, egalitarianism has utterly and tragically failed there, as it has in so many other times and places. And while reducing inequality may be a worthwhile objective in some cases (because inequality can cause problems for everyone, high or low, in socioeconomic or status hierarchies) achieving, increasing, demanding, offering, or agitating for EQUALITY is never worthwhile, and is only ever taken up by worthless, malicious, parasites, of one kind or another, and only ever found appealing by objectively inferior people.

[@nicocorbo4153]

great video ray. as a huge gini coefficient advocate, i really appreciated this video. a real thorn in the side of the gdp per capita camp

[@johnmarston2616]

What I love about prisons and third world countries is the income equality. Remember, billionaires didn’t earn their money they stole it from you. The second law of thermodynamics states that economic value cannot be created or destroyed, therefore the economic value of a city today is exactly the same as the economic value of a medieval village hundreds of years ago. So when you need someone to blame, just look to the rich so we can graph your discontent and correlate it with the excuses we make for imposing socialist political measures.

[@Oxymera]

I think our GINI index aligns with “American”values. Hyper-individualism creates a society where people do not care about the community. We need to redistribute the wealth, but no one wants that because it will raise taxes. I got into an argument with a conservative that was UPSET that Biden did student loan forgiveness. His argument? The people who took out loans shouldn’t be bailed out by taxpayers. I would gladly see my taxes be used to help people who are struggling (loan forgiveness focused on disabled, low-income, and public servants). It’s honestly ridiculous how people do not care about their fellow Americans.

[@quitlife9279]

I think it's more to do with hyper-capitalism than "individualism", although i'm not sure what exactly individualism means, i know for a fact that countries that have collective cultures have far worse inequality than even the US. So i think it's something else or being collectivist doesn't mean you care about other people in society either. But it does come down to how much they care about and respect other people in society.

[@useodyseeorbitchute9450]

Except someone had lot's of bad luck, loan forgiveness is transferring money from those who work hard or made right life choices, towards those who neither work hard nor make reasonable life choices. I'm not sure how it supposed to help society in the long run.

[@frictionhitch]

My city is dyeing because of this. It is why myself and so many others are leaving before we are too broke to be able to.

[@frictionhitch]

Thanks restrictive residential zoning. You ruined not just Salt Lake city but the entire Wasatch Front. Have fun with the inevitable blight that will come from this. It will happen fast and you will be shocked.

[@frictionhitch]

I posted these before SLC showed up in the video

[@frictionhitch]

I think this may be a result due to boundaries and data. SLC is quickly becoming a divided hell scape. Rents vs income is getting insane. 75% of households don't make enough to purchase a home in Salt Lake County. The city has been largely gentrified and almost everyone is struggling. There has been a seismic shift in this city in the last 10 years. SLChas become popular and has a fantastic natural growth rate but housing policies have not kept up. It's a major shame. It was a good place to live but no longer. I have had enough. Who wants to live where people are miserable?

[@nlpnt]

I recently visited Florida for the first time (I have family that moved down there) and my impression was that everything was either brand-new and really shiny or old and run down, no in-between. I almost felt a sense of home at the Homosassa Springs visitor center because it was clearly built in the 1960s but just as clearly well-kept, you mostly just don't see that in Florida.

[@richk3135]

Most people I know who have lived in cities in California have moved out or looking to move. I'm in a beautiful part of the state but politicians and policy have mostly ruined what was once good.

[@b4804514]

Just the opposite. They have saved California from becoming Florida or worse. This is the best state in the US so why would you destroy it with too much for cheap?

[@parkmannate4154]

Which policy exactly?

[@coolfool183]

Finding a tucker Carlson viewer in CityNerd comments is like a unicorn

[@lyndakorner2383]

You're ridiculous.

[@alquinn8576]

@@parkmannate4154 NIMBY policies, I would guess. 2/3 of people moving out of the state don't cite politics as the cause (so presumably 1/3 explicitly do), but many of the 2/3 do cite high cost of living, which is downstream of housing policy, among other things.

[@rileynicholson2322]

It's important to remember that the gini does not take into account the "shape" of inequality. A society with a reasonable basic income might still be quite unequal if the middle class basically didn't exist but the top percentiles still have very high incomes. Conversely, you could have a society with a strong middle class but a lot of abject poverty and a small number of people starving. The index is great for quick and dirty comparisons, but it's also a good idea for people interested to look into greater detail at the Lorenz curve and other measures of inequality like wealth, source of income, etc.

[@dl6860]

Income inequality isn't an issue - the whole video is based on an incorrect assumption. Shame you mislead viewers.

[@mikeymullins5305]

Sorry that your heart has been hardened. Hopefully you will learn to feel compassion again.

[@dl6860]

@@mikeymullins5305 sorry that you're so nearsighted that you think that income inequality is an issue. The difference between wealth generated is not the issue. the issue is the ease of mobility between socioeconomic classes. If the range of socioeconomic classes was as great as possible, and the ease of mobility was as high as possible, people could choose the life that suits themselves without needing to output as much as any other socioeconomic class to get by. That's literally the definition of diversity. Let people life as they please and lower the barriers to wealth creation so that anyone can live on that spectrum as they see fit.

[@pex3]

Only theory I have for DC low inequality is lots of good public sector jobs

[@DaHappyHeathen]

DC shows up so high because of federal employees and federal contractors. Loads of secure high-paying labor, basically an entire continent's-worth of program analysts, operations research and IT contractors.

[@ratsbath]

It's these sorts of data-focused videos that put the Nerd in CityNerd. Great vid!

[@blakeburns7937]

Great video! Really surprising results

[@oldbrokenhands]

When I see a median HH income of $60k or less, what scares me is that some of those numbers are from two or more income earners.

[@iLikeCoffee777]

Buddy you have no idea. The vast majority of the people I know are married or in long-term relationships and make less than $60,000 a year combined. The last demographic numbers that I looked at for my area state that roughly 40% of this metro area makes less than $60,000 a year.

[@adamsouthard1155]

So there's two quite separate gini coefficients that merit consideration. There is the income inequality distribution you went over. But, there's also a wealth inequality. Maybe interesting to look at. Since I imagine that there would be real differences between the cities. Also Economics Explained came up with - what I think is an excellent question that captures the essence of what we think we are looking for when chasing "equality." Which would be the best city to be "working class" in. Or possibly what city would be the best place to live if you earned the median income. Your video on the total cost burden of housing and transportation might have already done that for you, though.

[@fosterd11]

As a Cleveland native, I would have to assume that the disparity has to exist between East vs West sides of the metro area. Generally whenever there is a poor stat (crime, poverty, transportation, investment, housing, etc.) it almost always is unequally manifested on the East side of Cleveland or its poorer burbs before Lake County which is a shame. I'm a West sider personally but I hate seeing the disparity between all the gentrified areas over here vs only one or two tiny areas on the East side which then, taken with the average stats, makes the whole metro area seem a lot worse than it actually is. @CityNerd - would love to have you visit Cleveland and really see the tale of two cities we have going on

[@jamesandrewsinclair7488]

@fosterd11 As a native Clevelander, too, let’s agree it would be great to host @CityNerd here and show him areas besides Cedar Ave near E55th. However, I think the East / West story is an old one - a stale remnant of decades of stereotyping aimed at blaming all of the GC region’s problems on one demographic group. Yes, there are interesting differences east and west, but you don’t have a city unless you embrace them all.