This STUPID boxing myth drives me crazy - Please stop it!

[@CJLloyd]

Good video, Oz. This is a classic example of what historians refer to as Chronological Snobbery: the idea that people in the past were less sensible than people now. Just because technology and science are far more advanced than in historical periods, people constantly assume that people in the past were also "less advanced". But they weren't, they as well adapted to their time as we are to ours. They acted in ways that may seem silly to us now, but they didn't have the benefit of a world wide academic network with literally millions of people spending their entire lives trying to further our understanding of ourselves and the universe around us, nor the benefit of the insights of every single human that has lived since their time. And we still act plenty silly with all that help. People in the past made as good use of the information around them as we do now, they just had less of that information.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

It does seem to be a common trope wherever you look. Never come across the term chronological snobbery before, I like that!

[@nicanornunez9787]

Writer C.S. lewis was the only one I have heard or read that, but sounds the kind of thing JRR and the others UK catholic circle would say.

[@Outrider74]

@@nicanornunez9787 And they were absolutely right. Over here across the pond (U.S.) we call it "The History of Now" syndrome. People consider any previous views on culture, entertainment, politics, etc., as being "outdated" and "inferior." And it really is snobbish and arrogant. It really is like dealing with know-it-all children in many ways (and as a teacher I see this firsthand).

[@trandilar]

And in Eastern cultures, it's the opposite. "Ancient formula", "Ancient Science" (get a chuckle from that), and "Ancient secrets" are all huge selling points for the Asian markets. The only thing I agree with them on is "Ancient Martial Arts". Those of us who study martial arts know there was a change in the mindset of Asian martial artists going back approximately 150 years ago, accelerated by the communist leadership that spelled the doom of Chinese fighting techniques, and the world wars which masticated traditional Japanese arts, too. So much so, that when the "birthplace of martial arts" (China) was getting it's butt handed to it in international arenas, the communist government had to sponsor the re-building of those fight sciences! Hence modern Sanda, ironically no longer actually Chinese. I've come to suspect that the real base for Kungfu was more like Muay Thai than Dutch kickboxing (which I feel has the most resemblance to Chinese Sanda, but is actually too different to cleanly incorporate most Chinese martial arts, like the Hung Gar family for instance.) As the Asian mindset of "One hit, one kill" was removed from Muay Thai, the training mindset of the west was being introduced to the fighting community in Thailand, which adopted a superior hand position and boxing science. Who remembers when boxing was considered less effective for survival than the "deadly arts" of Asia? I feel like Martial arts among our species has taken a quantum leap forward in the age of information, and I look forward to what might come about by the end of my life. I love this stuff.

[@brandonbailey3705]

There was a docco about war dogs in history. The guy talked about how they would release the dogs to arrive just as the enemy was raising their shields to block a billy of arrows so they could attack from below. Then the guy says well that’s just impossible and rubbished it

[@Iron-Bridge]

My simple take on the matter is .."Just because you're standing on the shoulders of giants, doesn't make you a giant" -Jack 2021.

[@freezegopher7054]

Mike Tyson would spend hours watching videos of old fights and fighters to pick up forgotten techniques that he could use. Cus D'amato had a huge library of old fights and Mike took advantage of it.

[@olliefoxx7165]

Facts. Most people dont know that about Tyson. Hes a walking boxing encyclopedia.

[@morxalot3034]

Not just Tyson, but "Big" George Foreman revived the older style of standoff fighting, smothering punches and redirecting them to tire his opponents out. Both men get a lot of attention, deservedly so, for knocking people out, but it tends to eclipse the sheer technical mastery and physical dominance of their fighting styles.

[@amurape5497]

That's what I like the most about fighting, especially MMA. The most dangerous technique is the one that wasn't seen coming. There are always some moves the opponent doesn't know.

[@ktoth29]

I love reading about historical training regimes: Wake up, walk ten miles, eat a steak, take a nap, walk ten miles, eat a stake, take a hot bath and drink a bottle of whiskey; repeat. It always seems silly on the surface but there is always a certain logic to why they do things a certain way.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

There are a lot of interesting "logical" reasons!

[@cheekibreeki9155]

I don't think someone who eats beef for breakfast and oak for lunch would be someone i would like to mess with

[@gimlysadasda]

@@cheekibreeki9155 rofl

[@StressJudoCoaching]

It was just an excuse to get away from the wife and eat a steak and drink whiskey in peace

[@theclimbto1]

@@StressJudoCoaching I'd take daily ass-whippings for that. Fair trade, indeed!

[@powers39]

Boxing has been a sport and martial art dating back to ancient times. There even Egyptian and Greek art work showing boxing.

[@DieFlabbergast]

Most importantly: people back then did not enjoy getting hit in the face any more than they do now. But they DID enjoy winning.

[@mattnolan5527]

not boxing as we know today that was invented in England

[@pauloconnor5101]

Same old shit people saying football was invented in China or Mongolia or somewhere kicking a head about. The game as it is and the rule book of it was invented created in England end of story.

[@elenchus]

@Zentmeister the ancient Greeks did not practice boxing. They practiced an unrelated fist-fighting style called pygmachia. It's called boxing in the same way as wrestling is used as a generic word for grappling, but rest assured, there is no relationship between the relatively recent English art of boxing and pygmachia, which were separated by nearly 2,000 years. This is also true of wrestling and pankration. Greco-Roman wrestling is neither Greek nor Roman, and is modern, and the version of MMA that we call pankration is entirely contemporary.

[@dennisyoungblood349]

Wasn't there an ancient Greek boxer who won every fight without throwing a single punch? Shows pretty good defense to me

[@paulrouleau1972]

I've long had the same reaction to the misconception of Medieval European swordsmanship being misrepresented as barbarians banging sharpened iron prybars together, without skill.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

That is probably the most well established version of the myth.

[@deanwaller8283]

Especially promulgated by katana enthusiasts,that think the samurai were the absolute pinnacle of swordsmanship....

[@xao_phan580]

@@deanwaller8283 Katana enthusiasts without any knowledge or training that is. Actual Kenjutsu students or practitioners; be it Katori, Yagyu, Jigen or any other certified ryuha, are well aware that any fencing style needed some sort of training to develop, most likely starting with footwork and empty handed repetition. European fencing has had records, both written and drawn, depicting multiple techniques against different enemies, in a variety of scenarios, wearing different gear and wielding different weapons. Some of them are way more brutal than what any Samurai would do...And we are talking about warriors who would aim to kill in the most efficient manner possible (brutal as in...Killing isn´t pretty no matter how stylish you make it seem to be, not as in brutish or without skill). In my opinion, the misconception of European/Medieval fencing starts with fictional media. Knights and other ranking soldiers are often depicted as having the "racing horse" mentality of only going forward at best...Or as drunkards and corrupt officers at worst, easily defeated by a teenager with a rapier...Because apparently, the basic training these knights and soldiers had merely consisted of slashing around aimlessly with poor balance, meanwhile said teenager with a rapier learned how to do backflips and fancy kicking to compliment his "fencing".

[@rykehuss3435]

@@deanwaller8283 Even though the samurai rarely used their swords anyway! The bow and spear were their main weapons, and drawing your katana (sword) was seen as a last resort only.

[@tomjeff1743]

Aldo Nadi

[@psyience3213]

There's no way you could fight 270 fights if you're taking hard shot after hard shot. Thats an awesome point. He must have been a skilled fighter.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Seems like a fairly simple statement doesn't it, but so many people miss it completely.

[@BADALEX1]

Not quite true. Have a look at The Thais.

[@BADALEX1]

@@EnglishMartialArts Bit more complex than that. Look at some of the Thais. They have two hundred plus fights, and they're taking hard shots. Depends on your conditioning and a lot of other factors. Always glad to see James Figg mentioned though!

[@psyience3213]

@@BADALEX1 i just looked at the best muay Thai records of all time. Most of the impressive records are a hundred something wins with a few losses, and the very few break 200, and they're still not as high as 270 besides maybe one. I still dont see how my point is invalid though. Are you saying those Thai fighters are shit and fight 200 fights? Id you're fighting hundreds of fights you're not getting your ass beat over and over again.....

[@BADALEX1]

@@psyience3213 They' re not getting beaten every time, no. But they are generally getting hit a lot...

[@isuckatthisgame]

"We see ourselves as being the pinnacle..." Beautifully put

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Thank you.

[@hector_2999]

I loved this sentence. I had a girlfriend who would enrage when I said humans aren't the pinnacle of evolution. 😁

[@100dfrost]

Sir, Metatron took exception with this guy when "Top Tens" (same people as "Today I Found Out") published a flawed video about samurai. He said they were very open and friendly to his input. He had a much smaller channel then also. Try contacting them. Excellent video, thanks.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I will do that!

[@marclacey2263]

Being open and friendly ought to be a given. Did they correct their video? That would be a respectable response in my opinion. And also an absolute obligation.

[@guygirard4274]

The channel you're talking about is "top tenz" not top tens

[@DSan-kl2yc]

They aren't the same people as today I found out either.

[@nicholaswheeler9249]

Don't be too angry, that channel makes a habit of putting out inaccurate info in a convincing way. It's shoddy research at best.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Yeah, I can see why they do what they do, but it makes me cross when people make such fundamental errors in logic.

[@IShotLazer]

The channel's best thing is that it brings attention to a subject. I've learned to never agree with any conclusions he comes to. But you can use his research as a backboard to do your own if you're interested enough. No one will ever be 100% correct. I will say, it's odd he attempts to move so far out of his wheelhouse while looking like he is totally comfortable with the subject is a little bunk. He really needs to do a better job at deference on certain things but he never does.

[@adamcarney1465]

You can certainly tell he’s out of his depth on a lot of the subjects he chooses, he often fails to even pronounce names correctly, and the points he presents are sometimes based on myths/misconceptions but are presented as facts, I genuinely can’t watch them videos they’re so unreliable

[@jamcopper4592]

@@adamcarney1465 There's a sorry tradition of what I am semi ironically christening Britface on youtube and he represents the absolute worst of it. I understand that there's pressure to have a gimmick, but at this point I wouldn't be surprised to see him swirling a brandy glass full of milk and puffing on a bubble pipe, with a monocle and top hat.

[@keiphysheegie]

@@IShotLazer He looks confident because it's his job to present, and as you might be able to tell, he's very good at it. Other people on the team do the research and script writing

[@schizoidboy]

As I understand it boxing existed back in the Greek and Roman times, and they even combined boxing with wrestling to make the mixed martial art Pankration. So it is far to say that skilled boxers existed long before our modern times.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Absolutely, the idea that our generation invented being good at things is ridiculous.

[@emptyness2583]

This "we must be the pinnacle" attitude has guided so many of us through history. I hadn't seen it as broadly as before. I love this guy!

[@Geek-LDS]

Have you ever read Louis L’Amour? While he is best known for his frontier stories he wrote many boxing stories and noir mysteries in short stories, both based heavily on his own experiences in boxing. In the 80’s he described his detective Kip Morgan, a former boxer, as coming from old school boxing, where size and strength was less a factor than the timing and pacing of a punch, and the movement of the boxer’s body. His description of Boxing and fights in all his books were incredible!

[@liquidgeorge]

"Each generation believes themselves to be more intelligent than the previous, and wiser than the next." George Orwell.

[@tardisrider25]

This is too true. This is a common theme and persistent myth of all eras. Just look at go daddy's current commercial. It starts with the caption "we need a new generation of ideas." Lines like old ideas that's it, or yesterday's thinking is done. A constant push to disqualify ideas knowledge and methods based just on the idea that they are old, not based on if they are good ideas or not.

[@midnightmosesuk]

Obviously this guy never heard of Melankomas the ancient Greek boxer who was undefeated despite never throwing a punch. He was so good at avoiding the blows of his opponents that he would just wear them down. That takes skill.

[@crackerdan8010]

Hmmmmm

[@sethcollens3729]

Around the 3:57 mark he talks about people fighting for hundreds of thousands of years with skill. So yeah I believe he has heard of Melankomas. He is just using the history of British fighting as an example. Melankomas is a highly controversial and debatable example on your part. That's due to whether he even existed at all. If you're really trying to impress people with your pugilistic knowledge. Try to find an example of a historic fighter with concrete evidence of his existence to hammer home your opinion.

[@user-rg2hk9uz9u]

there will be no Melankomas denying in the field of Pugilistic studies. Melankomas is a real person. I BELIEVE.

[@happyhourk12]

Oz Great Video! I saw the other one a while ago and I am proud to admit that my first thought was that they should have reached out to you for a collaboration on it. Who knows, I know they did a correction vid when Metatron offered some corrections to them on the samurai. So maybe you should email them! Anyway, I love the new content! Keep on healing up!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Great idea, I'll do that!

[@Darkens101]

Your main point is clearly right. As long as its impossible to be perfect at a sport, there will always be a continuum of skill amongst competitors. I do think that the best boxers have better optimised punching for their ruleset than the best MMA fighters do for theirs though. Some of the difference a boxing fan might see is down to the fact that lowkicks and takedowns affect stance and distance management but some of it is down to the fact that mma is a much broader skillset. If all you practice is punching and punching defence then it stands to reason that you will end up (on average) better at these things than if you practice kicks, wresting and ju jitsu as well.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Specialists will always outperform generalists in their speciality, but I think that what upsets boxers most isn't takedowns per se, but the vastly different approach to the clinch.

[@mizukarate]

My old teacher would compare styles of fighting to cars. He would say a 4x4 is great but it is not a sports car. So what does this mean? The right car for the right situation. So same goes in combat sports. The right skill set for the situation. So your video is 100% correct!!!!

[@theponkster]

I did point people to your channel in the video comments which was utter pish - it astounds me that channels like " Today I found out" get so many views !

[@EnglishMartialArts]

He's a charismatic presenter, can't deny that...

[@theblancmange1265]

That channel put out a video a day last time I checked. Something is bound to be popular from that many videos.

[@kokofan50]

What’s weird about him saying that is that there’s a video on another of the channels Simon hosts that talks about an ancient Greek boxer who won hundreds of fights without throwing a punch.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Maybe it was just English boxers that were happy to be punched in the face?

[@kaendeosil6789]

@@EnglishMartialArts sounds about right

[@hilbertsinn6886]

The host of that channel seems to be a likable guy, but they clearly prioritize volume over quality. They very often just paraphrase from Wikipedia almost verbatim.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Absolutely, he comes across really well. But it's such a shame he makes such a fundamental error.

[@musicwelikemang]

He's a psuedo intellectual. He realised years ago that his British accent would be considered "smart" on youtube. Now all he does is read other people's content and publishes it as his own. He's actually a moron who doesn't know a lot of the words he is parroting.

[@JungleScene]

People think he must be right about everything because of his annoyingly thick RP accent. In reality theyve published a lot of really bad poorly researched information. Its poorly researched edutainment with zero depth thats shovelled out as quickly as possible to keep the youtube algorithm happy. I used to watch their videos a lot but after a number of videos with very questionable information I realized how easily they put out misinformation, probably without realizing it. I am not accusing them of knowing theyre putting out bad info. However I AM accusing them of lacking epistemic humility.

[@dash4800]

@@JungleScene Tons of channels like that. Gaming channels, movie channels, top ten type channels. Just get a British person with this sort of accent and you can pass anything off as "educational". Its annoying that this gimmick has infected the entire site.

[@mistertagomago7974]

@@dash4800 tbf the guy in question doesnt write the videos. Hes a narrator for hire.

[@andrewferris4539]

Ever notice how the Chinese and Japanese never have to face the same criticism of "Neanderthal fighting" despite traditional boxing and wrestling wiping the floor with every one of their martial arts? There's something really self deprecating about the West and its martial culture and orientalist about Asia and their martial arts (Thailand excluded).

[@HkFinn83]

Remember this was back before social media, before we even knew how to train. Back in the day we would go to the gym and simply punch ourselves in the face repeatedly. It was a simpler time.

[@Thor-Orion]

You guys had a gym? In my day we went into the woods and beat our faces against trees. Now THAT was skill!

[@simkoning4648]

I think this myth is reinforced by the misguided belief that martial arts are some mystical Asian thing. I have to admit that after over 15 years of kung fu experience, there's virtually nothing in any of my forms or drills that are particularly special. They have basic straight punches and various hooks and uppercuts, some eye pokes, palm strikes etc. and kicks that you could find somewhere in Europe minus all the dance-inspired opera stuff. I eventually just switched to kickboxing and modern self defense.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Agreed, a very good point.

[@paolosmaldone8347]

100% agree!Btw Figg was a sword master and ,dealing with a sharp blade you need a LOT of defensive skills.

[@schuletrip]

Loved the passion in this one mate.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Not too much then?

[@schuletrip]

EnglishMartialArts No, you’re right enough. I’ve just watched his video and it isn’t terrible, until he dismisses pre Mendoza fighters as some sort of idiots willing to take a pasting. Silly to think any human throughout our History was willing to get filled in.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Exactly, pre 1780 nobody had considered the maverick concept of ducking to avoid being hit really hard in the face...

[@StephanieG1]

I must say that I enjoyed the referenced video as he did give a good rather detailed explanation as to why prizefighters adopted a very different guard from modern boxers. I do agree though that his remark about pre-Mendoza boxers being largely unskilled was an insult to common sense and therefore tarnished an otherwise informative video.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

His summary was ok, if a little superficial, but as you say the premise was plain silly.

[@Montyhugo]

I ENJOY WATCHING A GREAT "BOXING "LESSON! MUCH MORE THAN A BEAT DOWN!

[@jaytomioka3137]

I think the idea of progression as superior to tradition is a product of the industrial revolution in the West. My experience in learning Kendo in Japan was that the scientific methodology and modern rules are good for specific aspects like safety and a broader inclusive pedagogy. However the current evolution of a sportifed martial art was overall much poorer than the older tradition. For this reason there is a parallel tradition of older “koryu” or old school practice that is preserved.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

It's definitely cultural, but the idea that older is better is necessarily probably just as damaging overall.

[@jaytomioka3137]

I agree that there needs to be a balanced and contextual dialogue between tradition and innovation in the study of contemporary and historical martial arts. ... or any field of study

[@johnlepant6953]

Honestly, I lost all interest in boxing after that fiasco where the man had both ears bitten. Started boxing in High School ( Here in the U.S. we have High Schools, I don't know what you have there in Great Britain. ) after watching ROCKY. ( Like many of the other boys at school. ) Had more personal success with Karate and gave up on boxing. You, Sir, have restored by faith in the sport. Thank you so much! ;-) ;-) ;-)

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Then my work here is done! 😁

[@TempusFugit1159]

Your videos are a great combination of history and entertainment. Is there any chance of you doing one about the epic fight between Sayers & Heenan to examine the controversy? Personally I feel 5'7" Sayers must have been great to fight 6'3" Heenan to a standstill. Hope you and your family are all well.

[@pocketstring3634]

That bald guy is just a presenter, they have like, 4 channels with diverse subjects. They got “today I found out”, Geographics, biographics, and I think a couple others. He just reads what they give em. They’re just making money.

[@licentiousdreams]

He has quite a few channels that are bringing in the money just reading a script. Which he is very open about.

[@pocketstring3634]

@@licentiousdreams well give him that, he’s not gonna get rich, not now, KZbin wants that money.

[@licentiousdreams]

@@pocketstring3634 I've been waiting for him to start a channel that talks about his own channels and still not get the facts right and it be written by someone else.

[@pocketstring3634]

@@licentiousdreams YOU, SIR, ARE A GENIUS! A KZbin Meta show that reviews and covers KZbin shows that is completely self referencing but distorted by an over amplified feed back loop that is modulated by third person perception of its own overgrown sense of self aggrandizement and delusion. Fabulous!

[@licentiousdreams]

@@pocketstring3634 That is EXACTLY what I was thinking of. Just more modulating the loops so they feedback to distort the distorter more.

[@GallowglassAxe]

I just recently found you and I really like your work. Its hard to find good Pugilism sources and I really like your work. Also great videos on how to fight evil zombie apples.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Really good to have you on the team!

[@50StichesSteel]

I was watching a video the other day from a bare knuckle boxing coach. He trains his men to keep their arms out away from their face to better defend themselves. It's easy for a punch to get through a traditional boxers guard close to the face without gloves on. He said it's also a problem of getting punched into the boxers guard and have your own hands hit your face. Do you agree with these thoughts from him?

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Absolutely! Who was it?

[@50StichesSteel]

@@EnglishMartialArts kzbin.info/www/bejne/rIOViH2Lh8R2e5Y

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I know the video! Been a subscriber of his for some time now.

[@amurape5497]

People also often bitch about non-boxer martial artists having hands low. But if a take down is a possibility in the scenario you train for, you HAVE TO have hands low to defend take downs.

[@leebush4053]

Good coaches who encourage high guard in front of face will always teach lateral head shoulder movement. Its a good technique taught to novice boxers. Protect yourself at all times. Be on the move. Arms in position to throw simple combinations. Hopefully deflect or block oncoming punches. Obviously all sports are about levels. The better you become you adapt and so on.

[@highlandsprings5752]

This is what happens when people have been cut/removed from their own history, it's a lot of cheek coming from a day and age that can not make a beautiful sculpture or a painting or even a good table let alone understand how combat works.

[@hybridstreetmethods8860]

Agree with you 100% it's at best irrational at worst chronological snobbery or historical blinkers

[@bitplayer7092]

For anyone interested, here's Tom Johnson's fight with Perrins. Johnson is the man often credited with restoring respectability to boxing after the black period. I do think there is a difference in Broughton and the later ones, in the Broughton still followed the manly etiquette of not retreating etc., though as you can see below even before Mendoza other's were using retreating tactics etc. It's certainly a change in attitude, but I agree it's wrong to disregard the skills of the likes of Broughton. My biggest problem is that he said something (which I've seen elsewhere), which was that bareknuckle boxers didn't throw to the head, when the accounts and manuals all show plenty of head shots. It's just without big gloves you can't cover up and so the guard is more reflexive, head movement, blocking the arms etc. Derby Mercury - Thursday 22 October 1789 BOXING. JOHNSON and PERRINS. The long-expected battle between Johnson & Perrins, which took place at Banbury, Oxfordshire, on Thursday, has not in it’s event disappointed the expectations of the amateurs-It proved a very severe and well supported conflict, having lasted for an hour and a quarter with various turns of skill and fortune on both sides. It was fought on a turf stage of 24 feet square, erected in the town of Banbury, defended on two sides by houses, and on the other two by rails-which, however, the populace broke down, but preserved good order during the battle. At twenty minutes before one o’clock the combatants set-to. For five minutes all was anxious expectation. Perrins then, with great force, aimed a blow at Johnson, which the latter contrived to elude. On the next set-to, Perrins was knocked down, and met with the same fate in the succeeding round. Johnson then received too knock-down blows, one of which brought blood in his face. Johnson at length exerted himself, and put in a blow over Perrins’s left eye, which closed it up.-This blow, and the failure of Perrins’s wind, which began now to be visible, raised the bets amazingly in favour of Johnson, and still more on Perrins’s receiving a very hard blow over the nose, which cut it through-They were then so high as 100 to 10. Perrins, however, regaining his breath, fought again with much vigour, and made a good blow over Johnsons’s right eye, which had some little effect upon the bets, but not such as to render them equal. After more than half an hour’s further severe contest, Perrins had recourse to some back-handed blows, which at first disconcerted Johnson, but against which he soon guarded himself very collectedly. At the end of an hour and a quarter, Johnson aimed a blow at Perrins, which took place full under the ear, and concluded as severe and well supported a battle as can be recollected in the annals of Pugilism-it having consisted of sixty-two rounds of fair hard fighting. Johnson is accused by Perrins’s friends (who are much disappointed at the issue of the recontre) with shifting; but when we recollect the great natural advantages enjoyed by Perrins, in his bulk and strength, he being a much larger man than Johnson, and above five inches taller, we cannot but think that Johnson was entitled to every fair manœuvre that skill and science could teach him, particularly as he shewed such perfect bottom on the occasion. Perrins was obliged to be put to bed at a house in Banbury, with his face and head much bruised, and in other respects terribly beaten. Johnson is much beaten about the face and body; but walked through the town to the Red Lion inn, accompanied by Harvey Aston, &c. The battle was for 250 guineas aside. The door-money, which is supposed to have amounted to near 800l. was divided: The bets, at the commencement, were five to four on Johnson; after a few rounds, six to four; and towards the conclusion seven to four. Bill and Joe Ward were Johnson’s Second and Bottle-holder.-Perrins’s brother and Pickard, those of Perrins. Above 3000 people were within the inclosure. Of the Amateurs present were-The Hon. Mr. Townshend, Harvey Aston, Capt.Lloyd, Mr.Coombe,Mr. Gower, Mr. Webb, Mr. Bullock, Mr. Tetherington. &c. &c. The Umpires were Colonel Tarleton, and Mr. Meadows, an Innkeeper at Birmingham. When the battle between Johnson and Perrins was over, the former leaped up, and touching the breast of Perrins’s second with his feet, challenged him to contest. The invitation, however, was declined. Johnson, to judge from the eye, is about five feet eight, of remarkable strength upwards, and seemingly of uncommon agility: Perrins from six feet one to six feet two, singular muscular, but not so well proportioned as Johnson, rather corpulent than otherwise, and of tremendous aspect. Johnson’s weight is 13st. 6Ib. When Perrins’s weight, between 17 and 18st. was mentioned, Johnson said, he liked him the better for a customer; weight was no object to him, as he would fight any many, whatever might be his weight. Johnson is now deemed the Champion of England. Perrins’s brother unfortunately staked every farthing he possessed on the event of the battle. Mr. Bullock, report says, has won twenty thousand guineas on the event of the battle between Johnson & Perrins.-He backed Johnson with high odds, and it is said he has made his hero a present of 1000l. BIG BEN and JACOMBS. The second day’s play (as it is termed) at Banbury, though not so interesting as that of Thursday, was, however, well attended. Contrary to all expectation, the battle between Big Ben and Jacombs had terminated in favour of the former; and this by superiority that skill will ever ensure over mere strength; which, as the poet says generally-mole ruit sua. This contest lasted an hour and 25 minutes. GEORGE the BREWER and PICKARD. Another battle between George the Brewer and Pickard followed in about a quarter of an hour, which was in the true stile of brutal ferocity. Pickard was terribly beaten, particularly about the face, which retained as few vestiges of humanity subsequent to the battle, as appeared in his mind during the progress of it. There was no manœuvring, indeed nothing scientific in this fight. It laster, however, half an hour, when George the Brewer was declared victor. The Birmingham people retired much crest-fallen, in being so completely foiled in these three different battles.

[@bitplayer7092]

Also for long before Mendoza, there's the ancient boxer Melankomas, which legend states was never hit at all. He also never throw a punch (according to the legend), and dodged and defended until his opponent gave out from exhaustion. www.boxingforum24.com/threads/ancient-champions-melankomas-of-caria.605172/ Here's some info on him. Almost certainly exaggerated, but it shows there was definitely the concept of defence, and fighting defencively in ancient boxing.

[@spinningdragontao]

An excellent explanation and to be honest it makes all the sense in the world. Great channel well done mate. Subscribed.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Thank you for the sub, very much appreciated.

[@stephenstocks1074]

There’s a big difference fighting with gloves and hand raps and those fighting without because of protection of the hands when punching the head

[@terryturner4116]

I was fascinated by people like Jack Broughton and Tom Cribb and learned a lot of old London Prize Rules fighting style but I also did traditional hand conditioning methods but I'd be worried about killing someone if I let let fly with all my power to their face.

[@bakters]

Just for the record, I remember that guy saying that current boxers wouldn't stand a chance against those old-timers in a bare knuckle brawl. He may not understand they were supremely skilled, but at least he correctly predicts the outcome... ;-) Anyway, I think it wasn't a bad piece overall. Not perfect, but definitely not bad for someone with a cursory interest in the history of boxing.

[@melchaios]

I agree, he has mistakes but I don't think his attempt was half bad. I mean, us fanatics of HEMA and history of fighting devote unusal time and interest into finding and digesting info about those topics, and even for us it takes years to break taboos and notions that permeate modern culture, often finding out that previous concepts we had are actually wrong. The chap of "today I found out" has to tackle multiple topics from multiple areas of interest, and surely enough some of which he's probably not passionate about, hence it's really not expected of him to give 100% accurate answers. I believe his effort was actually better than what I would expect from someone as vanilla as he is in terms of historical fighting, he has a lot of mistakes, but he surely did better than average in his attempt. At least for my taste.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

He does, but he is clearly referring to "post-Mendoza".

I saw the video you refer to some weeks back and was at first happy that someone outside of the MA communit would bring this topic up, but was obsviously disapointed by the content much as you where., Thanks for making this video and setting the reccord straight :-)

[@Quisiio0303456]

I've just watched that video yesterday and found out about this channel today. You should do more on classical pugilism, It's my favourite part of your channel so far. Subbed!

[@JasonS42]

So, as far as "he had to be skilled to get through 270 fights" that checks out by today's rules. I do wonder though....... were weight classes a thing back then? Was it possible that he was just physically stronger than his opponents? As far as I understand it, professional athletes(that is superhumans who are freakishly well suited for their sport) fairly recent thing. I was under the impression that those that professionally pursued sports back in the day tended to be those with enough leisure to pursue those sports and tended to be much more average when compared to their contemporaries.

[@jeffjohnson6181]

I feel the same way it's like when something was built bc it had to have help from allens give me a fing break

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Absolutely!

[@gxtmfa]

Right on!

[@ErokLobotomist]

It's too bad this hasn't gotten over 1m views. Dude obviously forgot about Ancient Greek boxing (as others have said). We have a long list of extremely skilled Ancient Olympic Boxing champions today. There are hundreds of Pre-Photographic depictions of boxers in similar stances.

[@sabasteonshane]

Humans are at their core a species that adapts to fit challenges we face based on the circumstances of the day. For example, there is no perfect sword simple because it is a tool that changes with the challenges the user faced during their generation. Context is key. We know more about the way the world works now in this informational age about the past but tend to forget the context in which martial prowess and skill grew. It is interesting to see how many martial arts overlap in some areas of technique. Nothing new under the sun, as they say.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Well said!

[@King_Skrymir]

This is such an absurd fallacy if you really give it any deal of scrutiny and yet you seem to run into this bias all the time. I think it must just be human nature to want to believe that what is contemporary is surely best. Anyway great content as always mate. Always a pleasure to see a new video from you in my sub box.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

It's ridiculous isn't it? Thanks for the kind words.

[@rubenaerts7284]

We wherent there and in those days the sources where vage. We don't know for sure, but if men would compete in professional fights they will learn strategies, techniques that improves their fighting. It's human nature, it's why we are on top of the food chain.

[@claytonspeed448]

Which is exactly why the "It's X year, you should/shouldn't do this" gets under my skin.

[@sethcollens3729]

Hopefully one of these days Simon Pegg will co host one of these episodes. I sure hope they'll make another movie together.

[@GrizzlyHansen]

If you look back throughout history every culture has their system of martial arts, I mean even tribal cultures where these martial arts were passed from father to son like the Viking's culture which Glima comes from.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Exactly!

[@londiniumarmoury7037]

I tend to avoid those V-Sauce spin off format type of KZbin channels, they are always done with minimal amount of research to pad out a video. The people that run these channels have no actual area of expertise they just regurgitate google search results and call it a day mate. They talk about 1000 different subjects and are well versed in nothing they talk about.

[@MexieMex]

As soon as I saw the original video, I knew this response would be along without too much waiting.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Happy to oblige!

[@Poohze01]

Great vidjo! Thanks! Clearly the first boxer to show any skill was the famous Ogg...

[@gitman3486]

Ogg was scrub padded record with tomato pots. Grug superior fighter. Beat Ogg. Beat Narg. Win all cave belt. Grug GOAT.

[@brianmcgarry1632]

All I can add to this old thread is Ahhrg.

[@Dominator046]

Happy to have joined you on patreon! And, excellent video. When I saw they're video in some related/suggested feed somewhere, I immediately thought of you.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Thank you so much! I'm really pleased you became a Patron, I genuinely appreciate it!

[@Blueswailer]

The idea that Mendoza was the first skillful boxer is weird to me, almost laughable. Precisely for the reasons you mentioned, as well as just from my own chain of thought/reading regarding the subject. Even unskilled street fighters often try to dodge, feint etc. whilst fighting. If they don't just stand still exchanging blows, why would anyone that calls themselves a prize fighter do such a preposterous thing. PS. Nice to see your merch shop accepts PayPal. I just might get that T-shirt at some point. First I need to measure around my chest though, have lost 50kg but still not sure if I need a 3XL(my midriff is shaped like a barrel still, though the sides don't bulge anymore).

[@EnglishMartialArts]

It seems like such a sensible and obvious point doesn't it?

[@richardhall5489]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/rJnacqGaj66eppo

[@hilbertsinn6886]

Top shelf stuff. Glad you've returned.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Glad you liked it!

[@ahmedsameh4408]

Excellent video. this kind of posts really drives me crazy, people have no idea what they're talking about.

[@TheRisky9]

This has been my frustration with the whole MMA vs Traditional Martial Arts argument. Many people say that traditional martial arts are worthless because MMA "takes the best" of all the traditional martial arts. That would make sense as you do see a lot of MMA fighters taking down Traditional fighters, but the explanation that it's superior becomes more dubious when one sits and thinks about it for longer than no seconds. Traditional Martial arts has kept people alive for hundreds of years before MMA was developed. So, something else has to have gone on here. What has actually gone on is that traditional martial arts practioners became complacant and basically depended on their traditions to ensure the art stays relevant and effective and didn't go out to find their own, serious study. For example, forms or kata are traditional training exercises that have been passed down from master to student for generations. The old saying is that "if you master your kata, your kata will begin to teach you." But if you ever ask the simple question of "and how would it do that?" you'll get a bunch of psuedo philosophical bull shit that makes no sense. That's because the sensai is just repeating something someone else told him, thought it sounded good and intelligent, and decided to regurgitate it, but never gave the words any real thought. "This guy told me and he seems to know what he's doing, so I'm just going to repeat it." Do that same kind of thing to your forms, your techniques, and your training, and you will end up with a pretty useless style.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Exactly. It's the big advantage HEMA has in that we only know we're getting it right because it works. We don't have an old man in a cave in the mountains to tell us it's right...

[@TheRisky9]

@@EnglishMartialArts No, HEMA is in very serious danger of becoming useless as a fighting art. As it becomes more and more oriented on sports, it will suffer the same fate as karate and other traditional styles. Sparing will not save you, as it did not save karate either. HEMA bouts can and do become games of tag as the focus becomes more on hitting the right place and less on whether that cut would have actually been effective in "real life." The real thing that will save HEMA, is the instructors putting the martial aspect first and the letting the sport take care of itself. And instructors can do this by being humble and admitting when they were hit. That builds a trust, so when an instructor has to say, "that wasn't effective as a martial technique" the students believe him. Studying other martial arts. HEMA masters wrote their stuff down, but a lot of nuance was lost. For example the "cutting motion" that is taught in katana, is absent in HEMA. The lack of a cutting motion is how people can stand on a very sharp blade and not cut themselves. I'm not sure if it's because it isn't being taught or it's not necessary do to the blade's weight or it's there, I just haven't put the pieces together. You may not have an old man in the mountain, but you do have an old man in a book, and that can be just as bad.

[@kalivr1908]

​@@TheRisky9 Okay, I agreed with your first comment regarding MMA and traditional martial arts and it drove me nuts too...but regarding your reply about sparring and effectiveness. First off, The point of sparring at least when it comes to light or medium is to train your defenses and offenses in a tactical manner and to hone instinct/reflexes while hard is supposed to be training to fight under pressure. The problem with Karate's sparring (Olympic Sport Karate specifically) is that the ruleset expects you to believe that just hitting an opponent once is enough to end the fight which quite the contrary, it doesn't (there are exceptions but that's what they are, exceptions). Martial arts like Muay thai and Boxing have a lot of sparring but is still effective despite becoming sports because it's ruleset is more grounded in reality, you're not expected to hit once, you're supposed to continue on until the opponent gets knocked out. If anything, sparring especially under the ideal ruleset that almost reflects reality combined with good understanding makes you a much more effective fighter with a higher survival rate. On the other hand, HEMA especially with swords have a ruleset with the premise that it's supposed to be bladed and I'm assuming is based on the context from duels of drawing first blood (aka, fighting until the other gets wounded, mortally or not) so the game of tag kind of makes sense (I would however appreciate it more if the strikes were done properly and not just tippy taps). If the concern was that they are not doing the cuts properly or are not considering edge alignment then that's what Tatami Matts are for and if you don't want to waste money, you could use fruit . Either way and regardless of what you use to practice cutting or even practice cutting itself, I don't see how this prevents someone from understanding the nuances of defense and offence in a weapon combat context. Which brings me to my next point, HEMA wasn't designed for modern times , the point of HEMA is study, analyze and make use of historical techniques used by a variety of historical European weapons, is someone really going to walk around with a sword and cut someone in two? The fighting/dueling aspect is a hobby, maybe it could be for self defense but it's a hobby. The closest thing I can think off that makes HEMA training pays off is when someone has a knife and have a knife too and even then that relies on the fact that you know how to use a knife (heck, the right kind) and if it ever does occur. Unless you are talking about bareknuckle pugilism aspect for HEMA, that's a different story and I don't think the same rules would apply for it so it's plausible to still use it. I'd make the argument that Arnis is far more suited for the modern era because at least it's a system that prepares for every weapon all at once (including knives, improvised weapons like baseball bats and bareknuckle), it can be used as a base for other arts including combat sports. Lastly it's not held by the "drawing first blood" context so it is highly encouraged to make more follow ups and combos on the opponent until they are no longer a threat (and maybe even go to jail if it's really fatal) and even then, I still had to study from HEMA because Arnis shares an ancestry with it, I want to better my understanding of what I'm doing and it is a collective martial art that has been used for the past thousand years that contributed in the survival of the people of those times, why wouldn't I learn from the masters to give myself a higher chance of winning when I spar with friends (which again by the way, I see still more as a hobby, I don't see myself going around with a sharp blade and challenging people). So overall, It's not designed for modern times especially not everyone or even nobody carries a sword anymore but it was and that doesn't take away it's effectiveness and it what it did for people for the past hundreds of years. If you want to use HEMA as a practical self defense art for the modern era then more power to you I guess

[@epone3488]

I think also that its lost on the average punter that the gloveless on the side fists, canted stance etc of the old style served a purpose. It wasn't until I was taught by my Grand' (am'boxer and bullock driver) that "side fist" keeps your hands safer, shoulder forward to danger helps with your bob'n;weave, feet position helps with your balance and footwork etc etc. so the old stance embodied all these factors necessary for "up to scratch" boxing.

[@d-evilmc]

Well said sair. Your vids are fantastic. Il be subscribing and sharing. Keep up the good work Brother.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Thanks for subbing!

[@PregnantWhale3000]

Absolutely ace video. Love your channel and your content.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Thank you! Really pleased you like it.

[@capacamaru]

I think that's a really good point about skills conforming to rules. Its like comparing modern day basketball to the mesoamerican ballgame. Just because an aztec from 1650 probably wouldn't be any good at modern basketball doesn't mean that players of the old ball game weren't skilled. Most people who have the time to dedicate to a pursuit will develop some level of skill at it, and that has been true throughout human history. And many times it has been shown that a skilled opponent can be defeated by someone less skilled but operating under different rules.

[@markasimmons]

My old classics professor always held that the Ancient Greek sport was just as skilled and nuanced as modern boxing, on the basis of the description of the boxing match in Virgil's Aeneid : worth reading : department.monm.edu/history/faculty_forum/Theissen_a_boxing_match.htm

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I'll read that, thanks.

[@frogman4700]

Mendoza was obviously not the first skilled boxer as in the 6th century AD the ancient Slavic people already had ritual fistfights that would develop into the tradition of Russian boxing/fistfighting (different from English pugilism understandably, but nonetheless still a european hand to hand martial system) . These by accounts were not necessarily just shows of brute strength but very respectful and artful displays of pugilism. Sometimes one on one and sometimes one group vs another.

[@nigelomacnigilson3089]

I know it was a couple years ago, but great video. I've noticed on most random-interesting-videos channels that, despite how entertaining they are, whenever they get to something I know about they get it horribly wrong. It is definitely absurd to think that any professional boxer is unskilled, even the least skilled professionals in history had more boxing skill than the average person. Roger Mayweather said it best.

[@Bakmeiredfist]

1:50 in his defense, he probably looked at a few historical books. Haha. I knew I subscribed for a reason. Good stuff.

[@heatheryllanes6925]

No in his defense he is only a personality the channel buys scripts from free lance writers he reads them unfortunately in life when you count on other people having due diligence and integrity you can end up looking like an ass

[@flaviofr4v0]

I am an amateur boxer/kickboxer and, from what I know, that old lower stance was more suitable for bobbing and weaving because the gloves were not as soft as they are today and they could not rely on them for textbook like defenses. It was much like bare knuckle boxing of nowadays

[@davidmiller6642]

Ten thumbs up for this video! It was the perfect thing to watch, after the frustration of sitting through the earlier monstrosity (referenced in the beginning of this video).

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Thank you!

[@Hon_cb1kr]

To be fair athletes do get better over the years. However bare knuckle boxing does not really exist nowadays. People thought kimbo slice was amazing... until he fought pro... so yeah.

[@bruceleeds7988]

I love this video and the points you have made, it applies to more than boxing... SUBSCRIBED!!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Thank you for the sub!

[@seadawg93]

I had always heard that the ‘funny’ old boxing stances had to do with boxing bareknuckle and needing a buffer of space and using the front arm as an ‘antenna.’

[@isnotforthewin]

Probably the best example of how much older boxing is would be that it was a favorite event in the first Olympics, suggesting that it is way older than that. Most intellectuals can't see the insane skill Mike Tyson displayed in his early career, since he was a brawler they have no idea how amazing his movement was and anyone who boxes knows that his movement is considered "fundamentals", he was just very well rehearsed in them knowing how important they are to 5' 10" heavyweight.

[@spencer1980]

How people fight is influenced by the rules through which they are confined. You strike and move differently in MMA than boxing because the rules are different, for the same reason you move and strike differently in pankration. You even see people moving their swords differently depending on what type of fencing they're competing in.

[@moroc333]

Maybe the misunderstanding comes from the idea that Mendoza is often called the father of scientific boxing. For some people this may imply that before Mendoza there was nothing scientific about pugilism, when in reality I think the idea is more that Mendoza was a pioneer in the study of boxing (since he wrote his manual "the art of boxing"). I also often hear the idea of pugilism as a slugger fest when people talk about greek and roman pugilism and many books about modern boxing I have checked often just go from "roman origins" to "english renaissance" when they talk about the origins of the sport, maybe this causes confusion on the subject. Btw, I just found the channel and I already love it. Great content.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Welcome to the channel!

[@moroc333]

@@EnglishMartialArts thanks :)

[@Robin0Blackett]

I was subscribed for that kind of content! Thank you.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Glad you liked it!

[@piggypoo]

I like how this guy and the Today I Found Out guy have very similar voices. It's creeping me out.

[@mikevaldez7684]

Loved it! How stupid to think they just "beat on each other". Absurd, hilarious 😂

[@Mr-Tibbster]

I saw that video just recently! Thought of you.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

If you come across any more be sure to send a link my way!

[@gloriouscontent3538]

I'm glad it's not about gloves being more for pretectecting hands than heads. I've been telling people that.

[@petar.dj98]

What do you think about modern bare knuckle boxing championships?

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I think they're a great idea, but not without their issues. I should do a video on them...

[@navigatingel6104]

@@EnglishMartialArts they should read Mendoza's boxing manual because they just fight like they have gloves on.....nothing like the pugilism style

[@Yeknodathon]

Happy New Year! The video made me giggle. Yes, preposterous but perhaps for another reason. People, fighters, whatever want certainty. They want a single point of reference that contains no doubt. Perhaps because something like boxing and fencing has more areas of change, fluidity, nuance that does exclude a fixed point of certainty. Or rather, forces on us the notion there are multiple certainties. So, the consumerist ideal of packaging something up to a neat parcel of digestible bunkum is a thing to ameliorate anxiety, make us feel cosy and comfortable. And feel certain. Much like a Burger King chilli cheese bite. But when doubt (or that other one, context) is entertained and welcomed.. well, yes, sure it is difficult. May even cause anxiety. But, hell, do the vistas open up!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I have no doubt that it is a more comfortable way of looking at the world, and I can understand why an individual fighter may think that way. But for someone supposedly addressing historical fact it is plain silly!

[@regularstan6212]

This is why I stopped watching today I found out, that guy cares LITTLE for factual accuracy. He wants to entertain NOT teach. He has been called out so much for his BS

[@ShakenSpeare]

He doesn't even have any interest or actual knowledge in the topics he explains. The guy is actually just a speaker-for-hire. KZbin channels hire him to read their scripts in a nice sounding way... he is an actor. He is in no way owning or close with the channels he's on other than reading a random script they send him and getting paid for it. It feels dishonest.

[@theblancmange1265]

Whenever I watched something I had decent foreknowledge on, I found some stupid stuff in it. After a few times like that I stopped watching any of those channels.

[@richfeather]

Just came across this vid. Good points and exactly right about thousands of years of fighting. Pankration was an Olympic sport introduced in 648 BC that combined boxing and wrestling (more MMA than boxing). Boxing, on its own, predates the Pankration sport, and preserved Grecian art (urns and such) shows fighters in boxing, wresting and Pankration stances. All very "scientific"...

[@jamesdunn7564]

From my (limited) understanding the pugelists back then didn't wear gloves and so blows to the head were a lot rarer so that they didn't break their hands, hence holding their hands lower and guarding the body?

[@gabrielv1856]

Interesting debate and applies to other sports too From time to time if you discuss any sports this topic will pop out for sur eand it may end in the same discussion is "Old guy" the best or "New Guy" the best? In football it happens when for example somebody talks about guys like Pele who played on "earlier" stages of the sport vs [insert current star name of choice here]. Anyhow, i totally agree. Its different, cant compare completely but maybe on some matching points you can ? Thanks for the video

[@robertnguyen9493]

Bravo, well said sir! It is something that I have noticed in MMA as well, it’s a commonly held belief that the fighters of today are far more evolved than the fighters of the early days of MMA/NHB, but it really depends upon the fighters and the rules. They same way boxing purest say that MMA fighters have terrible striking compared to professional boxers, when in fact it’s all a matter of styles. Boxing for MMA is different compared to Boxing in the WBO, smaller gloves, different tactics. Good stuff sir!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Yes! Exactly.

[@NinjaBusCow]

Nice to see such passion as well as logic.

[@dsimon33871]

Wow! Your video states things I have been trying to point out for years. Subscribed. People do not analyze the preclassical boxing, if they did their opinion would change considerably. The whole system was designed to use mechanics, and not brute strength. The gloves were smaller, power transferred differently, one could use less force and more accuracy, hence the forward lead. Footwork was more sword length... One had to enter a gap to attack, and usually this involved a feint, a trap, a parry, etc. And in entering the gap? One had to know how to grapple intelligently because the fight did not stop at the grapple. The biggest thing though has to be the fact that the hands had to be protected. A broken hand was a fight ender... Hence, fighters usually could not swing about with reckless abandonement. Yes things evolve, but evolving happens differently and is not a given. People have been fighting a long time ane many fighting skills learned are contrary to or natural fighting inclinations.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Thanks for the sub, welcome on board!

[@forposterity4031]

Yeah those first ancient Olympic games had such unskilled athletes, they didn't even have ribbon dancing competitions, completely unskilled brutes.

[@andywilson8698]

Well I know you primarily study english martial arts, but their are older treaties in Italy, Germany, France, ect ,all across Europe, that show blocking , parrying, dodging, slipping, redirecting strikes . I'm just saying that from the early medieval upwards ,we know other people on the continent were using adavace defense techniques, it would be hard to believe England was using them as well .

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Assuming you mean "wasn't" and not "was" I have to agree with you!

[@andywilson8698]

@@EnglishMartialArts yes I apologize stupid voice to text

[@EnglishMartialArts]

@@andywilson8698 No need to apologise!

[@peterlosingwendy7]

A man with muscles and a British accent reading from an old book to passionately make a point.....I didn’t know about this kink until now. Thank you.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Lol! It's lovely to meet you too. 😄

[@ReddFoxx1562]

I competed in martial arts of the foot variety, but I must say that pugilist ambition is one of the most natural, and complicated, types of martial arts. After all, hands were designed to do things, whether it's building something or punching something, and feet are designed for transport. Obviously a landed kick to the head will likely do more damage than a punch, but boxing is, in my opinion, the more human martial art.

[@horsepukey]

My dear Sir, after your brilliant defense of the sweet science and art pugilism. I wish were one of your students. I am sixty years of age; yet I retain my old skills. However I desire increased my knowledge of the art. Do have a great and happy New year.

[@dragons_red]

The logical fallacy you point out is astute and unfortunately plagues many fields of expertise. There is this idea that ancient people were just dumb and somehow we are better because we have tech or science or something. People were just as clever as they are now, and what they lacked in formal math and scientific knowledge they often made up for with cleverness, time and manpower. I would argue these days we are more ignorant per capita, as people "learn" more from schools and media, and less from intimate involvement and engagement with the world.

[@terrylandess6072]

The only scientific thing about modern boxing is knowing how to score a fight so Las Vegas wins and you don't get caught.

[@niallmccavana3901]

10/10 whiteboard.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Glad you spotted that :D

[@sophiemac1632]

The problem is that some assume that the sport has always been the same. But there is little comparison between the old prize ring and modern boxing. It's kind of like saying does Muhammed Ali beat Tom Cribb? The obvious answer is what form of boxing are we using? 15 three minute rounds in a modern ring under QR with 8 oz gloves, or a fight to the finish on wet grass under Broughton's rules with bare fists? Fighters like Belcher, Spring, Sayers, Mace, Sullivan mastered their sport just as much as Tyson or Duran.

[@whyguygin]

Yes! Thumbs up you tell 'em The people in the past were simple minded etc etc idea drives me nuts!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Me too!

[@ruraladventurer1884]

I used to watch Today I Found Out quite a bit but about two years ago they clearly switched to a quantity-over-quality format and now I very rarely watch.

[@ssj7gokurpg]

“We see ourselves as the pinnacle”. What’s interesting is that in the East it’s the opposite. They see their previous Kung fu masters as the pinnacle.

[@gxtmfa]

B/c their current ones can’t fight worth a damn

[@neo-filthyfrank1347]

@@gxtmfa neither could the previous ones

[@hozzoh9936]

I thought you were going to talk about the strategy of sticking your thumb out between your fingers when you punch, to add an extra puncturing force to your punches.