This Vegan Documentary is a Bait and Switch

What I liked: I like the concept of 'bringing the viewer along with the science.' I agree with the fact that the SAD eating pattern is problematic and that it would be an improvement to eat a whole food-based diet. I also (very much) acknowledge there are non-health related issues about food that we should have adult discussions about.
What I didn't like:
(1) This series wasn't really about the twin study. Data were only presented, a bit, in the last of the 4 episodes.
(2) The advertised foods (fake meat, fake cheese, fake eggs) are cast as similar/identical, but simply aren't, nor were they the basis of the participant's diets.
(3) The data presented were, I think, not all that impressive. And some data presented in the documentary could not be found in the paper, e.g. body composition.
For more on the topic of Data Misrepresentation, see our new paper: www.sciencedirect.com/science...

[@JennifertxCarnivore]

What needs to be done is a study that had one twin on a whole vegan no processed food diet, and one on pure beef carnivore lion version diet! Water only for drinking, and maybe salt for flavor.

[@monnoo8221]

you are expecting the world to be honest.... while everyone on average is lying every couple of minutes.

[@frederichominh3152]

@@monnoo8221 carnivores don't lie.And don't have sunburn ;)

[@kipholscher1812]

Definitely. All of these studies that promote vegetarianisn or vegan, aways have meat eaters that also eat fries, buns, soda, etc. In other words, the SAD diet. Never a true carnivore diet. There really needs to be a true study.

[@keto-rl2ce]

In a formal study, the participants wouldn’t be co habitating the way these twins were. Very ‘unscientific’

[@monnoo8221]

@@frederichominh3152 hehehe, agree. But I want to see the homocysteine after 5y+, across different age groups. Carnivore studies try to avoid doing so. It is a lie by omission

[@davidr1431]

It seems strange that the study conducted dexa scans and waist measurements (as shown in the program) but these results were not included in the published study results.

[@jonmoceri]

Nick, you are correct. The "documentary" was just a long ad for a vegan diet. Especially in all "nutritional" and medical studies, always follow the money.

[@JakeFortner-mm2od]

Yeah, follow the money. The media and government brainwashed you into gluttony in meat and dairy. Most humans are intolerant to lactose. If you actually watched the documentary you would know they industrialized the meat and dairy industry. They process and pump chemicals into you “food.” That stuff is killing people and giving them cancer. But keep drinking the kool aid. 😂

[@Barnaclebeard]

lol this guy thinks that "the money" wants us to go vegan. pull your head out, buddy.

[@greganthonysanchez3416]

@@Barnaclebeard Under the "Conflicts of Interest Disclosures" section for this study - "Dr Gardner reported receiving funding from Beyond Meat outside the submitted work." This constitutes an immensely significant "Conflict of Interest" issue.

[@zaappp1588]

@@Barnaclebeard It wasn't a vegan study. It was an anti-meat, climate change propaganda study.

[@user-pf5xq3lq8i]

Vegan is a political cult. Money is secondary objective, by wef buying failed farms, crippled by green taxes etc.

[@Malcolm-Achtman]

If you want to do a good twin study at least do it for a few years or even a few decades. Like me and my twin, for example. In 2008, my identical twin brother weighed about 15 lbs. more than me. After I read Wheat Belly in 2011 by Dr. William Davis and went lower carb (wheat and grain elimination) my weight gradually dropped about 10 pounds, thereby increasing our weight differential to 25 lbs. After I transitioned to even a lower carb animal-based diet in 2018 my weight dropped another 5 - 10 lbs. My brother continued to eat a more typical diet that included things like toast or bagels, bananas, baked potato, etc. If anything, his weight was increasing while mine was decreasing. At one point he was approaching 180 lbs. while my weight was about 145 lbs., making for a 35 lb. differential. Now, keep in mind, my brother chose to manage his heart health in part by taking a low dose statin, which I never took. Therefore, one can clearly determine from our own twin study that statins cause considerable weight gain. I'm obviously joking but this does illustrate how conclusions in studies can be made to be distorted when you pick and choose what you want.

[@MunchinYou-jy6km]

I appreciate your anecdote and kudos for being a healthier version. However, if you eliminate entire food groups and you remain consistent about it, you will likely lose weight. On top of that, you will also improve your blood markers due to the weight loss. The motivation people experience can snowball and often lead to further health-promoting behaviours. It is not clear why strict reduction of carbs should be causative of your results.I am not convinced that reducing or eliminating baked potatoes, bananas etc. are necessary. Keeping ultra-processed food minimal is however a valid strategy (bagels, toasts..) Lastly, if people make changes, there is a combination of reduction of certain foods and introduction of some other, usually healthier, substitutions, along with exercise etc.

[@andrewg3768]

I don't know what height you are but 145 pounds or say 65kgs is far top light

[@Malcolm-Achtman]

@@andrewg3768 I'm 5' 11" tall. My BMI (Body Mass Index) is approximately 20, which is normal (or standard), although it's at the "low end" of normal.

[@TheCompleteGuitarist]

Why would we want to lower LDL?

[@patkolakowski4905]

Thanks Nicholas. Love your views and you deal with truth/facts/evidence. It’s all about money in our world which is sad.

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

I'd like some tbh... maybe then I wouldn't be doing this on an iPhone, hehe

[@MagicButtersClass]

Maybe you should say veggies are healthy because apparently where all the money is 😂

[@tiagomoraes1510]

Veggies are healthy, the research points to it and i dont think Nick disagrees with it.

[@Chooge]

It always amazes me that vegans are always making food to look like meat, to try to taste like meat, making meat substitutes. Why do that if meat is your enemy? Because they love meat and crave it. Because their body craves it.

[@GarudaLegends]

They also take synthetic drugs to make up for the lack of nutrients only found in meat, dairy, and eggs.

[@Gesundheit888]

What? You never met a carnivore who shaped his steak into a broccoli and dyed it green? I bet there are plenty out there. Common carnivores, confess.

[@julienfroidevaux1143]

​@@GarudaLegendsThe animals you eat are fed synthetic vitimans as well are you ok with getting these synthetic vitamins second hand ? Are you ok with ER Doctors using synthetic vitamins in a clinical setting , would you prefer Doctors fed their patients steaks instead ? What is wrong with synthetic vitamins now ?

[@julienfroidevaux1143]

​@@Gesundheit888Except they do, carnivore pizza , tacos , carnivore noodles etc . They crave carbs , sad to observe , just eat the carbs nobody dies or suffers ill health eating a 🫐

[@MeganBennettBurks]

@@Gesundheit888yeah… but to be fair I absolutely will cook eggs to look like waffles or pancakes. Not to say those are vegetables, but they are commonly made with plants so it isn’t really all that different, right? Granted I don’t try to make them taste like they aren’t eggs.

[@mnsesq]

Christopher Gardener (committed vegan) "accidentally" did a study years ago that showed low carb and high fat was a superior way of eating by all health measures. Oops! (Not what he expected or hoped for) Ever since then he's been trying to DESIGN studies to show the opposite, to show the outcome he desires, almost as a way to make up for his initial study. Someone is funding his message well now and he has a movie unfortunately.

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

DIETFITS. You talking about the Soto Mota et al reanalysis in AJCN? Brilliant paper by a brilliant first author (and one of my best friends!) pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36811468/

[@homomorphic]

There is absolutely no reason that a vegan diet can't be low carb. Your stating that vegan diets are necessarily high carb indicates you have no idea what you're talking about.

[@flipino007a]

​@@homomorphic sure, you can have a low carb vegan diet, the issue is that vegan diets lack in the proper amino acid profile and you would also be severely deficient in B12, and you would be eating a diet high in phytic acid, oxalates and many more compounds that prevent the proper absorption of key nutrients and minerals

[@homomorphic]

​@flipino007a again, you demonstrate that you are cluless. B12 for example is easily obtained from nutritional yeast (which is also an essential component of a proper source of amino acids in order to establish an optimal ratio).

[@JasonWrightArt]

That’s “impossible” 🥁 🥁 💥

[@pohkeee]

Thank you so much for your efforts! As a former educator, I am always saddened how the public is so susceptible to clearly ulterior motives in slick highly polished propaganda. The foundational basics of the scientific method that has raised humanity’s wellbeing are not only not taught correctly in our undergraduate classrooms, but are actively misrepresented and/or shunned in popular media. Guidelines to live by, always question funding, biases and ideology! It’s very difficult for humans to adhere to the scientific principles…but that’s exactly why we need them to cut through the static of biases. It’s so ironic that many participants actually mean well 🥴.

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

TYVM... you're welcome ;)

[@jakubchrobry3701]

People also shouldn't lie about funding. If someone is going to accuse someone of acccounting fraud, they need to bring the evidence. Beyond Meat did not fund this twin study. The COI disclosure said, _"Dr Gardner reported receiving funding from Beyond Meat outside the submitted work."_ That means some of his previous research was funded by Beyond Meat. This twin study was funded by Vogt Foundation, Stanford Clinical and Translational Science Award unit, and the National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute.

[@thedoc5848]

@@nicknorwitzPhD vegans b12 dropped significantly 12:00 why didn't you mention this? that's quite concerning given the short duration

[@MoneyStrategiesSOULutions]

yes that is@@thedoc5848

[@aussiecath]

I think this one is currently a perfect storm. Pharmaceutical companies don’t want to go out of business because people are eating healthy, Seventh Day Adventists have a plant based religious dogma, the Sugar Industry wants to survive, Coca Cola wants to sell their products and Vegans are keen to convince people to go plant based. A vegan organisation was shown to be pay g off media for favourable stories and I recall James Cameron paying some NewZealand researchers for a study.

[@hiroyopoetker]

Very clear and understandable review! Thank you Nicholas!

[@pacummiskey]

Thank you for your articulate video explaining your take on the issues in the documentary. I was frustrated when I watched the series by the lack of data as well. I don't remember even seeing what it was they were actually eating nor the calories between the two diets. I also saw it as an advertising ploy for highly processed vegan foods. I also wanted to see what the data looked like for actual adherence to their exercise routines, food intake, etc. The whole project was basically a nightmare, not contributing to the good science (and reporting thereof) we need to make informed decisions about our health.

[@estata12]

Im 50 and tried vegan for a year in a desperate attempt to fix my health issues and autoimmune problems and never felt so ill. Been on a meat/animal based diet for 2 years now improving my health more than i could ever have imagined . Lost 45lbs , all my issues have gone and basically feel like i did in my twenties. There is a reason why millions are turning to a carnivore style.

[@stefke5366]

Same story. I got really bad arthritise and fatigue on plant based. On meat ands eggs I healed this but it was a ten year struggle after two year vegan. So I will never go vegan again.

[@billdublewhopper3064]

What did you eat as a vegan?

[@estata12]

Don’t even go there mate. I hope I never have to eat plants ever again👍🏼

[@billdublewhopper3064]

@@estata12 I call bullshite

[@estata12]

I dont care. You keep eating your bullshite @@billdublewhopper3064

[@mariomenezes1153]

Love the way you break down the science in the documentary. Also the way you say "in my opinion". Wish the narrators of the documentary said the same. Every scientist should be humble enough to say that they could be wrong especially when coming up with conclusions. Thank you!

[@chesterroberts4647]

I could tell in the first episode what was going to be the outcome of the documentary. It’s a vegan diet commercial!

[@tigerspiritjourney]

Yep.....Shameful.

[@lewclark5300]

Thank you Nick! great review !

[@gprivat812_my_selection6]

Your response to this "documentary" was very necessary and I welcome your work!!

[@slapdashmaica3265]

ok, but did you have any take homes about the meat and dairy industry? It seems like people are so excited about finding ways to debunk the study (which i agree seems flawed, as do most studies-- hence why im looking for the original paper), but does it not make you curious to look into the many other studies that have previously looked at health benefits in relation to a plant-based diet? Did it not make you want to question the state of the planet in relation to the meat and dairy industry? Did it not make you question the role race and power play in access to healthy foods? Just curious...

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

@@slapdashmaica3265 "Did it not make you want to question the state of the planet in relation to the meat and dairy industry? Did it not make you question the role race and power play in access to healthy foods?" -- Absolutely. Very important topics that I'm interested in learning more about, and attempt to do so from colleagues with more expertise. I'm not dismissing these issues. To the contrary. I think to pull the 'bait and switch' does these topics a disservice. They deserve to the the center of their own discussion, not wrapped around a nucleus of propaganda

[@shiplesp]

Zoe Harcomb's Monday Note a few weeks ago was a terrific analysis of the research (not the documentary) and its pretty blatant flaws, for anyone interested in a curated closer look...

[@Maintain_Decorum]

Can you please link that? I love and trust her perspectives.

[@defeqel6537]

@@Maintain_Decorum links outside of KZbin get automatically removed

[@hlits6310]

Thank you so much, Nick

[@jenningscunningham642]

Let’s compare the people on the vegan diet to Anthony Chaffee or Ken Berry’s patients on the carnivore diet and see who does better

[@robjohn6943]

They never compare the zero-carb diet to the vegan diet.

[@Barnaclebeard]

There is no "vegan diet" any more than there is a "non-vegan diet".

[@DanteLikesRock]

because they know how bad vegans would look LMFAO.

[@cmb119]

Thank you for talking about this

[@carmendevine7244]

8 weeks isn't long enough for me to consider the results meaningful. I was vegan ,(eat to live diet) 9 months, and at first I had really positive changes, then after 6 months I started having really negative consequences. In the end I had to St this way of eating and it took almost a year of medical treatment to heal digestive damage.

[@user-tp8sr3mr6k]

By the end of it I felt like cancelling my Netflix subscription- the bias was both ridiculous and false.

[@tatywork9126]

what about triglycerides? am i mistaking or it was higher on vegan diet?

[@KenJackson_US]

The diagram at 12:00 indeed shows the vegan triglycerides were higher. Though the "p" value was bad.

[@georgek3627]

Thank you so much !!!!!

[@free2be]

This is directly from the study: "Fifth, our study was not designed to be isocaloric; thus, changes to LDL-C cannot be separated from weight loss observed in the study."😀

[@mballer]

I would like to see sales data of the fake food companies after this documentary.

[@sbag11]

Love having a real scientist do the research. Thank you, Nick!

[@Troy-Moses]

The only guaranteed way that I can think of is to experiment with the prison population: Prison 1, Vegan Prison 2, Standard Prison 3, Carnivore

[@prunelle19]

Lucky prison #3!!! Most prisons feed inmates an almost vegan diet.....but they would say that feeding them a carnivore diet is unethical

[@samisavola863]

Healthy animal based diet in Prison 4 will be the best tho :)

[@finagill]

The study actually ended up showing some of the downsides of a vegan diet. Those that started eating a vegan diet first, gained more weight when they switched to an omnivore diet. It was almost like their bodies were starving from the vegan diet. The other issue is that they lost more muscle on the vegan diet.

[@Andrew-ud3xl]

7lb muscle gain is huge in the tine frame he did it in. The charts from before and after results i found didnt show weight measurements or blood pressure, were they published? Strange if not when its so easy to record.

[@chase3464]

Doesn’t seem possible to truly add that much muscle in that timeframe. Makes me wonder about true Dexa accuracy. Would have preferred they measured with MRI.

[@daniellee7108]

Maybe I'm wrong, but my impression is that most people eating low carb are also doing Intermittent fasting, as one purpose of low carb is that you can fast without discomfort. What we eat may not be as important as when we eat. It seems these studies don't reflect the real eating patterns.

[@jennifermarlow.]

It seems to me that if we are going to eat an ancestral diet, then it should be IF. Our ancestors didn't graze 18 hours a day like we do, that's for sure. They were too busy hunting and surviving. So I agree. I am low carb, only eating some yogurt and berries in addition to meat. That was for health, hoping to heal my long-hauler symptoms And it worked, with the bonus of losing a couple of sizes.

[@jussi3378]

You have a knack for this

[@charlenepomicter5345]

Nick, thanyou for exposing these frauds!

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

Not going to say anything about the core team. But I myself would choose real cheese over whatever was advertised for that pizza... even if my LDL is going to be higher than 95 ;)

[@joy_1939]

I agree liquid cheese looked gross!!! I will skip the Netflix documentary. @@nicknorwitzPhD

[@mysticjedi6730]

Mean BMI was lowest in vegans (23.6 kg/m2) and incrementally higher in lacto-ovo vegetarians (25.7 kg/m2), pesco-vegetarians (26.3 kg/m2), semi-vegetarians (27.3 kg/m2), and nonvegetarians (28.8 kg/m2). Prevalence of type 2 diabetes increased from 2.9% in vegans to 7.6% in nonvegetarians; the prevalence was intermediate in participants consuming lacto-ovo (3.2%), pesco (4.8%), or semi-vegetarian (6.1%) diets. After adjustment for age, sex, ethnicity, education, income, physical activity, television watching, sleep habits, alcohol use, and BMI, vegans (OR 0.51 [95% CI 0.40-0.66]), lacto-ovo vegetarians (0.54 [0.49-0.60]), pesco-vegetarians (0.70 [0.61-0.80]), and semi-vegetarians (0.76 [0.65-0.90]) had a lower risk of type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2671114/#:~:text=RESULTS,28.8%20kg%2Fm2). The adventist health studies, the China study, the epic Oxford study, etc, etc, endless epidemiology demonstrates the less animal products populations and people consume the thinner, healthier, longer they live on average. You simply have no idea what your talking about. Why deny reality? If you choose to consume aninal products it's OK to acknowledge the evidence is conclusive.. the less the better.

[@robertlotzer7627]

If they are vegans and they want to eat veggies why do they need substitutes? Do they want to eat meat or not? Why not just eat veggies? This doesn’t make sense!

[@zoomby4380]

Health relies on eating as close to the original state the produce is. Healthy veggies are, Healthy when not tampered with. Those who only consume meat, make sure you know the process your meat has been through to reach your plate. If I consumed meat, probably the Amish way is Healthy, their cattle are not feed "chemicals or other fake growth enhancement". Buy direct from a farmer you can trust. To be healthy is to stay away from processed foods of any description. Food manufacturers want new markets and selling fake meat is the next new growth. We give our bodies the best nutrition from fresh real produce. People do debate, you yourself need to investigate the meat or not.......if you are Healthy and be able to exercise and have fresh clean water daily. My protein is from eggs/fish.....no meat for spiritual reasons. No headaches, no colds or flu. Consume nutrition and your body will love you back. 😊❤😊 eat real food.

[@chargermopar]

The funny thing is that after eating 6-12 eggs a day I look better than Greger who is 5 years younger! How can anyone that that bobblehead seriously?

[@lachlanscanlan5621]

eggs are awesome

[@chargermopar]

@@lachlanscanlan5621 Especially duck eggs!

[@lachlanscanlan5621]

@@chargermopar We havent had duck eggs here for years but im thinking of getting ducks back again because they're great eating. But eggs are the highest quality proteins source, very convenient and you can cook a million different things with them. I can work physically very hard all day long with just a pile of hard boiled eggs in my pack. Also people with a small bit of free space can raise their own chooks and take care of their food security/quality to some degree.

[@chargermopar]

@@lachlanscanlan5621 Everything needed to produce life is in an egg.

[@DanteLikesRock]

bobblehead greger lol.... yes the picture of good health.... for a 90 yr old !!

[@SimplyHuman186]

It's Fun watching your subscribers grow grass roots style!

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

fun for me too ;)

[@pmccord9]

Thanks Nick. You're always fair and scrupulous. I stopped watching early, per your advice, but also I'm familiar with the bogusness of the study. I watch your other stuff to the end, sometimes twice.

[@defeqel6537]

The driver of the lower LDL was IMO the higher plant sterols rather than fiber, perhaps both

[@chadfitch3293]

I visit this channel because I’m looking for unbiased expert analysis of the science, as much as that’s possible. I know you didn’t want to but I do appreciate your thoughts on that documentary it’s important.

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

Thanks! This keeps me going!

[@michaeldavis6890]

So glad i have found you. Smart and clear isn't a commonality among science commentators.

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

Thanks! Very kind!

[@stellat2405]

excellent as usual.

[@johnfontana7256]

We need a trillion dollar study on how humanity evolved for a quarter million years on a strict vegan plant based diet!

[@XaqNautilus]

If industry-funded studies released the results regardless of whether or not they approve of the findings, they'd be good, trustable studies. When those studies happen, they're awesome. However, the company funding the study often chooses not to release results that don't help their image or sell product. If they get to cherry-pick which studies they release, then all their studies have to be considered biased and at best; hypothesis-generating and not proof of anything factual. It certainly should reduce the weight and consideration given to certain studies.

[@dawnelder9046]

Like the corn oil study in the 90s that showed it tripled cancer rates in just 6 years compared to animal fats. Very well done study. And very deeply buried.

[@tristantries9211]

​@@dawnelder9046never even heard of that one

[@naelna]

You won by a knockout. Do you have a video talking about the effects of diet on our environment?

[@MattCurney]

Thank you so much for this! 🙏 The bias of this study was maddening. I still can’t believe that moment when the omnivore twin who lost more fat and gained more muscle was gaslit as being less healthy!

[@monnoo8221]

the question about any appraisal of some dietary style would always be: is there a correct trail of evidence, with wholesome diagnostics performed in long term trials? As vegans lack B12, so carnivores lack folate and betaine. How does the metabolome look like after 5 or 10 y of adhering to a strict diet of any type? The whole discussion of dietary is so much of stone age behavior. It is a tradition that arose from a time when knowledge was very limited. It is all going in the wrong direction. Instead asking about the best diet and trying to prove the effect on some rather coarse physiologic parameters, one should ask about which metabolic type requires which kind of nutrients. And then, where and how to get it, and how to balance things out, almost on an individual level. Pursuing the diet question as a starting point in a time where evidence is piling up in a rate never encountered before in history - despite many/most studies are just crap - is nothing else than a stupid attempt to manipulate people to adhere to a particular ideology, or a certain style of consumerism.

[@defeqel6537]

Was this documentary about the study where the plant based group reported less satisfaction from food, and supposedly because of that ended up eating about 200kcal less per day?

[@PlantChompers]

Good review, Nick. I like hearing opposing viewpoints to mine when they are credible and not drama-filled with ad hominem and you did a good job. 👏 And really we aren't very far apart about the twins study. I loved the series because I'm an earth scientist and almost all of us are sick about deforestation, pollution and all the rest. But you're right, this was supposed to be about comparing the healthiness of omnivore vs vegan diets.

[@His-Most-Catholic-Majesty]

A stamp of approval from you starving liars actually took a chunk out of Nicks credibility, and now I think he'll pull a saladino and start recommending drinking syrup at some point.

[@PJandBethany]

Excellent point. This reminds me of someone complaining that electric vehicles aren't actually good for the environment because the batteries are so expensive. Sure, that might be a reason to arrive at a conclusion, but it has nothing to do with the argument presented.

[@DanteLikesRock]

professor Bart Kay absolutely wrecked you. When will you debate him live?

[@andrewsheppard2404]

Great review Nic and thanks for giving me some insight on it as I would have turned it off the second I see that Dr with arms of an 8 year old girl (Dr Gregor) spouting vegan nonsense. Keep up the great work.

[@tigerspiritjourney]

Oh yeah, that guy with the pencil neck and the squeaky Mickey Mouse voice!!

[@mysticjedi6730]

Mean BMI was lowest in vegans (23.6 kg/m2) and incrementally higher in lacto-ovo vegetarians (25.7 kg/m2), pesco-vegetarians (26.3 kg/m2), semi-vegetarians (27.3 kg/m2), and nonvegetarians (28.8 kg/m2). Prevalence of type 2 diabetes increased from 2.9% in vegans to 7.6% in nonvegetarians; the prevalence was intermediate in participants consuming lacto-ovo (3.2%), pesco (4.8%), or semi-vegetarian (6.1%) diets. After adjustment for age, sex, ethnicity, education, income, physical activity, television watching, sleep habits, alcohol use, and BMI, vegans (OR 0.51 [95% CI 0.40-0.66]), lacto-ovo vegetarians (0.54 [0.49-0.60]), pesco-vegetarians (0.70 [0.61-0.80]), and semi-vegetarians (0.76 [0.65-0.90]) had a lower risk of type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2671114/#:~:text=RESULTS,28.8%20kg%2Fm2). The adventist health studies, the China study, the epic Oxford study, etc, etc, endless epidemiology demonstrates the less animal products populations and people consume the thinner, healthier, longer they live on average. You simply have no idea what your talking about. Why deny reality? If you choose to consume aninal products it's OK to acknowledge the evidence is conclusive.. the less the better.

[@mickmcmenemy7701]

Thanks for reviewing this propaganda film. One of the low -lights for me was in episode 4 when the female chef twins were reviewed by the 'killer of dreams' and her fitness instructor acolytes. The twins were lectured: " Where does the energy come from (to exercise)? It's not the fat, it's your muscle'. These people should not be giving advice to anyone as they are either completely ignorant of how the body actually works or they are deliberately lying to further their beliefs.

[@TheCompleteGuitarist]

I don't need a study to tell me the optimal diet for humans is not plants. Because if it were, then plants would be easier to obtain in the quantities we need them without having to fly them in from the four corners of the world. The best food that humans can eat, generally eats grass which grows almost everywhere on the planet. I grow and eat plants but if I wanted to feed myself with only what I grew, there would need to be so many things in place to make that happen, an appropriate climate, suffient rain, sufficient space to grow and sufficient to store and enough time to dedicate to the practice. What little I do grow shows me how imporant soil health is and how pests and fungii and all manner of other diseases can decimate all the food I grow in one season which would leave me starving to death. *So please vegans GIVE IT UP!* Last year we had a minor drought and a fungus swept through my garden and not only did it mean ending up with no food, in some case entire plants were destroyed so that I did not have them for the next season and others gave no fruit or seeds at all. No tomatoes meant no seeds for the following season. The issue with the vegan agenda is that it only works with the ability to fly or ship food long distances, storage devices to keep it fresh and supermarkets.

[@jennifermarlow.]

That issue will be solved when the food-grade insect plants are on full production. JUST KIDDING, but it's not funny, really. They are building one in my city in Canada. It's chilling, tbh.

[@KenJackson_US]

I started to watch it but stopped before the end of the first episode and gave it a thumbs down. I didn't know Nick was reviewing it. They mentioned several times that red meat is bad, saturated fat is bad, LDL is bad. It sounded like propaganda, not research.

[@catcan221]

The reason they can't focus on study results is obvious. Most who have lived plant base or vegan have many health issues. They can blame them on genetics but the wise ones know when to admit they were wrong. It took me years of suffering, medical bills, testing, elimination diets before I realized just how much most plant foods were causing my illnesses. I see people who are so blinded by the propaganda of the vegan promise and then most of them are complaining about depression, auto immunity, joint pains, dysbiosis, leaky gut, etc. They are on many prescriptions. ☹️ Sadly, they are pushing this sick agenda on all of us. I already learned that it is not healthy and do NOT want to go back to being sick and in pain all the time.

[@lealdragon]

So No meat-eaters have any health problems or take prescriptions? Got it.

[@The40yearoldVegan]

Can you name everyone you personally know who’s had health issues via a well planned plant based diet? I’ve been vegan for 10 years I’ve seen nothing but health benefits and the community I live in I know dozens if not more who’ve been vegan longer the same or even less but I’ve heard nothing that indicates any health issues. A lot of people don’t eat enough or eat what they should on most diets and they blame the diet. On the counter I know many meat eaters who suffer from chronic issues can I say for sure its meat maybe not but its strange to see how unhealthy they are vrs my vegan friends. People can eat diets healthy or not. If you are vegan for ethical reasons and stay beyond 1 year you are likely vegan for life, why because when you see what takes place you change ur perspective.

[@mysticjedi6730]

Mean BMI was lowest in vegans (23.6 kg/m2) and incrementally higher in lacto-ovo vegetarians (25.7 kg/m2), pesco-vegetarians (26.3 kg/m2), semi-vegetarians (27.3 kg/m2), and nonvegetarians (28.8 kg/m2). Prevalence of type 2 diabetes increased from 2.9% in vegans to 7.6% in nonvegetarians; the prevalence was intermediate in participants consuming lacto-ovo (3.2%), pesco (4.8%), or semi-vegetarian (6.1%) diets. After adjustment for age, sex, ethnicity, education, income, physical activity, television watching, sleep habits, alcohol use, and BMI, vegans (OR 0.51 [95% CI 0.40-0.66]), lacto-ovo vegetarians (0.54 [0.49-0.60]), pesco-vegetarians (0.70 [0.61-0.80]), and semi-vegetarians (0.76 [0.65-0.90]) had a lower risk of type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2671114/#:~:text=RESULTS,28.8%20kg%2Fm2). The adventist health studies, the China study, the epic Oxford study, etc, etc, endless epidemiology demonstrates the less animal products populations and people consume the thinner, healthier, longer they live on average. You simply have no idea what your talking about. Why deny reality? If you choose to consume aninal products it's OK to acknowledge the evidence is conclusive.. the less the better.

[@catcan221]

@@mysticjedi6730 I do not know what I am talking about, says the person who is linking flawed studies that have been propped up by religious zealots and paid off universities. Best of luck to you.

[@catcan221]

@@The40yearoldVegan Yes, I know many and no, they asked me not to tell you their names.

[@hannahattermann5249]

Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom.

[@taylorhardaway8031]

They didn’t necessarily choose those four, those were just the ones that agreed to got on camera.

[@christinevisser350]

The first episode was so much fun and great focusing on the twins and their personalities, etc, and then it just sidetracked into marketing and then at the very last bit you saw some results. I would have loved to have seen the journey of the twins more, how they felt, what they ate, how their preparations went around their lifestyle factors, etc. I can accept the bias towards vegan, as I was aware of that from the start so kept an open mind, but I really wanted to see the twins shine through more. This comment is from the perspective of entertainment rather than scientific accuracy.

[@carlsapartments8931]

You are brilliant and you know the truth so just say it straight up!!!!!!!!!!!!! Knock it off with being so politically correct, it's clearly not a documentary, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck guess what! The whole world is so sick and tired of people tip toeing around everything. Bullshit is bullshit no matter which way you pile it!

[@theskyehiker]

It does fit the form of a documentary. What it isn’t is a scientific presentation in a film format.

[@mysticjedi6730]

Mean BMI was lowest in vegans (23.6 kg/m2) and incrementally higher in lacto-ovo vegetarians (25.7 kg/m2), pesco-vegetarians (26.3 kg/m2), semi-vegetarians (27.3 kg/m2), and nonvegetarians (28.8 kg/m2). Prevalence of type 2 diabetes increased from 2.9% in vegans to 7.6% in nonvegetarians; the prevalence was intermediate in participants consuming lacto-ovo (3.2%), pesco (4.8%), or semi-vegetarian (6.1%) diets. After adjustment for age, sex, ethnicity, education, income, physical activity, television watching, sleep habits, alcohol use, and BMI, vegans (OR 0.51 [95% CI 0.40-0.66]), lacto-ovo vegetarians (0.54 [0.49-0.60]), pesco-vegetarians (0.70 [0.61-0.80]), and semi-vegetarians (0.76 [0.65-0.90]) had a lower risk of type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2671114/#:~:text=RESULTS,28.8%20kg%2Fm2). The adventist health studies, the China study, the epic Oxford study, etc, etc, endless epidemiology demonstrates the less animal products populations and people consume the thinner, healthier, longer they live on average. You simply have no idea what your talking about. Why deny reality? If you choose to consume aninal products it's OK to acknowledge the evidence is conclusive.. the less the better.

[@livelearnandteach7402]

I want a plant based vs carnivore study. That's the only way to know if meat is the problem.....but we all know how that will end up.

[@hazynpeterson4083]

excellent video Nick

[@nicknorwitzPhD]

Thank you :)

[@DouglasAbramskiOfficial]

Initially, I was expecting to have some kick back. After listening, I would say, "good work." 💯

[@chrisminifie219]

The vegan diet lowered LDL? I would draw the conclusion that it is an inferior diet on that fact alone.

[@19Jetta]

17:40: Yes - THIS.

[@cordellsenior9935]

Seems to me that an omnivorous diet is most sensible and falls in line with logic. Aside from the processed food we all know about, being sold and fed to us since the 50s or so, I think one should pay attention to the lessons learned in anthropology and anatomy. Those classes taught that the human jaw and tooth structure reflects the ability to consume animal life and plant life. Eat "everything that is edible" that grows from the ground and trees (fruits and vegetables) in abundance and variety, and get a sufficient amount of protein. If you eschew eating animal life, then get your protein requirements in a cluster of alternative sources.

[@rickyruffle]

My thoughts exactly! I thought it was hilarious that the results were generally in favor of the omnivorous diet and then the lady has a hissy fit about the vegans not eating enough 😅

[@psychedelicspirituality]

It was an infomercial for Beyond Meat and other vegan corporations

[@riffism]

I think diets are the new “religions” in a secularized world. It’d be nice if this much passion was put into not being assholes to each other.

[@jawi499]

👍

[@nadernayo]

👏👏

[@mattyswan1]

5:44 the very picture of health.

[@shieh.4743]

😂😂😂

[@urielwong]

👍👍🙏

[@_________9996]

Do you filter your comments?

[@johnlaudenslager706]

Aren't documentaries in general infamous for being propagandistic?

[@tallwaters9708]

What about the telomeres though?

[@davedewsnap288]

Nobody wants to acknowledge the telomeres

[@tallwaters9708]

@@davedewsnap288 yeah, I'd expect better from an academic like this guy, but selection bias is strong I guess.

[@user-tb6ei1rb4p]

Looking at the study paper, the omnivores ate significantly more calories and sodium and much less fiber than vegans. This was in the meals that were sent. This alone can easily account for the lab and blood pressure differences. The protein values were barely high enough in the prepared meals for the vegans indicating that achieving appropriate protein in a vegan diet is extremely difficult. This is just another way of propagandanizing science. Sodium, calories and fiber have to be equal to properly compare eating meat vs not.

[@Quotidian2022]

"The Philosophy of the Stomach; or an Exclusively Animal Diet is the Most Wholesome and Fit for Man. By Bernard Moncriff. London: Longmans"

[@jennifermarlow.]

I've read parts of this book online, so interesting! I recall his search for a wife that would embrace his carnivore lifestyle. Dunno why that stuck in my head.

[@Quotidian2022]

@@jennifermarlow. Shared values in a relationship are the essential nutrients for a harmonious connection, much like a healthy diet is to the body - both fuel the bond that sustains and flourishes.

[@bigcat9977]

Vegan diet lowers LDL ("bad cholesterol") but has been associated with adverse long term health outcomes, namely nervous, skeletal, and immune system impairments, hematological disorders, as well as mental health problems...

[@dawnelder9046]

LDL is necessary for life. It is only a problem when damaged. And the same things that cause inflammation in the arteries also cause damaged lipoproteins. Sugars, grains and seed oils.

[@YuraL88]

No evidence for this. Properly planned and supplemented with B12 vegan diet can be healthy.

[@tomgoff7887]

Can you provide some citations please? I've been told that vegan and vegetarian diets deliver significantly lower rates of heart disease eg "Results: Thirteen cohort studies (844,175 participants, 115,392 CVD, 30,377 IHD, and 14,419 stroke cases) were included. The summary RR for vegetarians vs. nonvegetarians was 0.85 (95% CI: 0.79-0.92, I2 = 68%, n = 8) for CVD, 0.79 (95% CI: 0.71-0.88, I2 = 67%, n = 8) for IHD, 0.90 (95% CI: 0.77-1.05, I2 = 61%, n = 12) for total stroke, and for vegans vs. nonvegetarians was 0.82 (95% CI: 0.68-1.00, I2 = 0%, n = 6) for IHD. RoB was moderate (n = 8) to serious (n = 5). The associations between vegetarian diets and CVD and IHD were considered probably causal using WCRF criteria. Conclusions: Vegetarian diets are associated with reduced risk of CVD and IHD," From the February 2023 paper 'Vegetarian and vegan diets and the risk of cardiovascular disease, ischemic heart disease and stroke: a systematic review and meta-analysis of prospective cohort studies'

[@mysticjedi6730]

Mean BMI was lowest in vegans (23.6 kg/m2) and incrementally higher in lacto-ovo vegetarians (25.7 kg/m2), pesco-vegetarians (26.3 kg/m2), semi-vegetarians (27.3 kg/m2), and nonvegetarians (28.8 kg/m2). Prevalence of type 2 diabetes increased from 2.9% in vegans to 7.6% in nonvegetarians; the prevalence was intermediate in participants consuming lacto-ovo (3.2%), pesco (4.8%), or semi-vegetarian (6.1%) diets. After adjustment for age, sex, ethnicity, education, income, physical activity, television watching, sleep habits, alcohol use, and BMI, vegans (OR 0.51 [95% CI 0.40-0.66]), lacto-ovo vegetarians (0.54 [0.49-0.60]), pesco-vegetarians (0.70 [0.61-0.80]), and semi-vegetarians (0.76 [0.65-0.90]) had a lower risk of type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2671114/#:~:text=RESULTS,28.8%20kg%2Fm2). The adventist health studies, the China study, the epic Oxford study, etc, etc, endless epidemiology demonstrates the less animal products populations and people consume the thinner, healthier, longer they live on average. You simply have no idea what your talking about. Why deny reality? If you choose to consume aninal products it's OK to acknowledge the evidence is conclusive.. the less the better.

[@tomgoff7887]

@@dawnelder9046 This is marketing talk. Water is necessary for life also, so is iron, selenium etc .... but if we have too much of those things, they can kill us. Instead of believing glib nonsense, we find on the internet, why not research the evidence? Fortunately, it has been summarised for us by panels of scientists and is free to download or read online. We don't need to spend money buying some trashy book, diet plann or counselling session that deliberately misrepresents the facts.

[@Meathead-10810]

Thanks, nice points. I was about to watch the series but will skip due to the lack of science info you mentioned. I did watch some vegan reviews of the study but realised that they focused on Cholesterol is bad as a way to promote the study which is just wrong.

[@keywestfan2503]

The CEO looked like the picture of health…

[@JamesDurcan]

Yes all studies are funded and animal ag has spent 1000x the amount of $$ compared to the plant-based industry on funding studies . Think of this fact point - Animal is AG is gifted ( subsidies ) 40 BIL of working capital a year by way of our US gov. Plant ag ( exclusive plant ag ) is given only 25 million. At least something to consider. Aside from that. The ADA ( The Body that registers RDs and nutritionists. ) - issued a statement a few years ago stating that a well planned vegan diet is adequate for all stages of life from pregnancy to adulthood. So it a presents a question : If we can get everything we need nutritionally from a vegan diet , why in the hell are we doing this to the animals in 2024....just some food for thought We can go back and forth on the nuances and benefits/ downsides from vegan vs. omnivore but its all moot now guys. Time to evolve our food choices...

[@tlewis5901]

Wow Dr. Norwitz this supposed Stanford Twin Study sounds like click bait 🤔 thanks for the open minded informed review

[@howsbout4]

Why wouldn’t they create diets that represent equal macros of the same protein carbs and fats for both the vegan and meat diet?? Obviously, with a variable this obvious there will be differences in the data. I came to watch this video halfway through the documentary searching for the other people that also think this is propaganda.

[@gilrose12345]

Sounds like an advertorial masquerading as a documentary.

[@kinpatu]

9:40 vegan diet does not lower LDL-C is all patients. I did a strict whole foods plant based diet for 2 years, which resulted in the highest LDL-C I’ve ever measured. Triglycerides went to nearly 500mg/dL. Switching to keto reduced the LDL-C significantly and brought the trigs < 40mg/dL. The problem is that in these studies the comparisons are isocaloric, which I clearly wasn’t, as I gained 40lbs eating nothing but whole plants foods.

[@mysticjedi6730]

Mean BMI was lowest in vegans (23.6 kg/m2) and incrementally higher in lacto-ovo vegetarians (25.7 kg/m2), pesco-vegetarians (26.3 kg/m2), semi-vegetarians (27.3 kg/m2), and nonvegetarians (28.8 kg/m2). Prevalence of type 2 diabetes increased from 2.9% in vegans to 7.6% in nonvegetarians; the prevalence was intermediate in participants consuming lacto-ovo (3.2%), pesco (4.8%), or semi-vegetarian (6.1%) diets. After adjustment for age, sex, ethnicity, education, income, physical activity, television watching, sleep habits, alcohol use, and BMI, vegans (OR 0.51 [95% CI 0.40-0.66]), lacto-ovo vegetarians (0.54 [0.49-0.60]), pesco-vegetarians (0.70 [0.61-0.80]), and semi-vegetarians (0.76 [0.65-0.90]) had a lower risk of type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2671114/#:~:text=RESULTS,28.8%20kg%2Fm2). The adventist health studies, the China study, the epic Oxford study, etc, etc, endless epidemiology demonstrates the less animal products populations and people consume the thinner, healthier, longer they live on average. You simply have no idea what your talking about. Why deny reality? If you choose to consume aninal products it's OK to acknowledge the evidence is conclusive.. the less the better.

[@kinpatu]

@@mysticjedi6730 You obviously can’t interpret statistics since you contradict yourself. Statistical mean does not mean monolithic. There is variance among the data set, which is the only claim I made. Go back to listening to Dr. Greger.

[@michaelmccrossan7655]

Should've done it with triplets and have a carnivore diet option

[@allisonal]

So the most significant study finding is that ad libitum vegan eating causes muscle loss? 😂 Also, look at the delivery service breakfasts described in eTable 23! In terms of total carbs / total sugars / added sugars (g) we have: 47 / 11 / 4 for the vegans vs 13 / 5 / 0 for the omnivores. Why would they allow such a difference if the study wasn’t meant to test anything to do with carbs? In the study introduction they even state that one of the issues with vegan diets is that they can be poorly formulated to include refined carbs and added sugars. You’d think they’d have tried a bit harder to not make them a factor in this study.

[@jaredschmidt8013]

The study is only over a 2 month timeframe which ZERO conclusions can be drawn from such a short study. A proper study on diet must be a least 2 years with whole food plant based group and a Whole Foods group that also incorporates meat and eggs into their diet. Do a fair and unbiased long-term study on those and I guarantee you the omnivorous group will vastly outperform the vegan group.

[@MaTtRoSiTy]

I have never done full vegan but I have done full carnivore and what I will say is that I had a lot of minor irritating health problems (particularly joint issues) on a mostly vegetarian low meat diet. Most of that went away eating full carnivore/red meat style diet but I started to suffer bad eczema after a year and eating a fresh coconut and mango cleared that up within 2 days. So it was clear to me the ideal diet for me was high in meat with some fruit (including avocado) though preferably low sugar fruits and no carb heavy foods. I think full vegan or full carnivore diets are not ideal but rather low carbs with zero processed foods/sugar is best

[@mysticjedi6730]

Mean BMI was lowest in vegans (23.6 kg/m2) and incrementally higher in lacto-ovo vegetarians (25.7 kg/m2), pesco-vegetarians (26.3 kg/m2), semi-vegetarians (27.3 kg/m2), and nonvegetarians (28.8 kg/m2). Prevalence of type 2 diabetes increased from 2.9% in vegans to 7.6% in nonvegetarians; the prevalence was intermediate in participants consuming lacto-ovo (3.2%), pesco (4.8%), or semi-vegetarian (6.1%) diets. After adjustment for age, sex, ethnicity, education, income, physical activity, television watching, sleep habits, alcohol use, and BMI, vegans (OR 0.51 [95% CI 0.40-0.66]), lacto-ovo vegetarians (0.54 [0.49-0.60]), pesco-vegetarians (0.70 [0.61-0.80]), and semi-vegetarians (0.76 [0.65-0.90]) had a lower risk of type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2671114/#:~:text=RESULTS,28.8%20kg%2Fm2). The adventist health studies, the China study, the epic Oxford study, etc, etc, endless epidemiology demonstrates the less animal products populations and people consume the thinner, healthier, longer they live on average. You simply have no idea what your talking about. Why deny reality? If you choose to consume aninal products it's OK to acknowledge the evidence is conclusive.. the less the better.

[@jeffreysantore7606]

Just more PROPAGANDA for poisonous fake food.

[@lachlanscanlan5621]

true

[@katttmandoo]

Sorry I’m all about that meat and that will NEVER change!!!

[@bryanspencer4856]

Who funded the study?

[@DanteLikesRock]

beyond meat lol.

[@jennifermarlow.]

From Vox: Critics have also pointed out that the study was partially funded by tech entrepreneur Kyle Vogt, who is vegan and an executive director of the Netflix series, and that the lead Stanford researcher, Christopher Gardner, has received funding from Beyond Meat, a plant-based meat company. (The company didn’t fund this study, though the vegan cohort did consume Beyond Meat products.)

[@jennifermarlow.]

@@DanteLikesRock Uh, no. Facts matter, see my comment below yours. You can't make a proper argument when you make things up.

[@DanteLikesRock]

@@jennifermarlow. doesn't change anything. Infact, what you said makes it 10x worse.

[@scottw2317]

TMAO is one of the stupid ideas they come up with despite it not being associated with anything except higher levels in metabolically unhealthy humans. A 2018 Pescatarian study claimed they performed better metabolically BECAUSE of higher TMAO intake (usually TMA is also increased). Fish like Halibut has like 10 times the TMA/TMAO levels of beef. Further to this there was a study I remember seeing on claiming the reason the Japanese has lower heart disease due to fish intake, which increased their TMAO levels. This also resulted in a subsequent increase in certain strokes etc.

[@TommysPianoCorner]

If only research funds were channeled into actual ‘research’. This is simply another example of a study designed to engineer an outcome that we have already witnessed. Another such example was that crossover trail with 2 weeks on one diet and then (without a washout period) 2 weeks on another. We all know the body takes time to adjust, we know that keto induces water loss in the initial stage so researchers then being ‘surprised’ at short term fluctuations is frankly just disingenuous. It seems sensible that historically carbs would have slowly started to become available (temperate spring), then be plentiful (temperate summer), then slowly disappear (temperate autumn/fall) before being practically unavailable (temperate winter). Thus, the body would have gradually adjusted itself to accommodate the food available in the environment. That’s without even thinking about the tropics where plants are plentiful all year round. Of course, big availability of plants equates also to lots of animals - so people can eat their fill of both all year round! Perhaps this explains why many Asians gain weight differently to caucasians? Yet, some still want to compare tropical ‘tribes’ with average Americans (who of course are just European and other races who migrated there relatively recently in the grand scheme of things). A meaningless comparison but 😊ne that can be used to engineer whatever results you like!

[@thecarnivorept]

Strange name for a vegan documentary. I am mostly meat, and they're saying that if I want to grow more meat, I should eat meat?

[@EyesOnCarnivore]

Which corporate sponsor funded this bit of propaganda I wonder?

[@Hesallwet]

So, The vegans got 59 grams of Protein per day, the Omnivores 91.25 in the provided meals. (Similarly bad in the self provided) They all were way too low IMHO. But, the vegans got only 65% of what the Omnivores got. It seems nutrition is one area where Bro-Science is way ahead of University Professors. 🙄Oh, and they increased the dietary cholesterol over baseline in the Omnivores, while decreasing it in the Vegans. They must have known this would be bad for the cardiovascular health of the omnivores, right? I'd like to see a study where they at least get the macros right...preferably equally good.

[@markotrieste]

"you are what you eat" Yep, even my wife tells me I'm a pig 😂

[@jswanson859]

Thank you for sharing this info and saving me a few hours of time that I wouldn't get back. Also, from the trailer it looks just like a sales pitch for plant based dies. Boring! Another pitch to get people to stop eating meat and not be healthy.

[@mysticjedi6730]

Mean BMI was lowest in vegans (23.6 kg/m2) and incrementally higher in lacto-ovo vegetarians (25.7 kg/m2), pesco-vegetarians (26.3 kg/m2), semi-vegetarians (27.3 kg/m2), and nonvegetarians (28.8 kg/m2). Prevalence of type 2 diabetes increased from 2.9% in vegans to 7.6% in nonvegetarians; the prevalence was intermediate in participants consuming lacto-ovo (3.2%), pesco (4.8%), or semi-vegetarian (6.1%) diets. After adjustment for age, sex, ethnicity, education, income, physical activity, television watching, sleep habits, alcohol use, and BMI, vegans (OR 0.51 [95% CI 0.40-0.66]), lacto-ovo vegetarians (0.54 [0.49-0.60]), pesco-vegetarians (0.70 [0.61-0.80]), and semi-vegetarians (0.76 [0.65-0.90]) had a lower risk of type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2671114/#:~:text=RESULTS,28.8%20kg%2Fm2). The adventist health studies, the China study, the epic Oxford study, etc, etc, endless epidemiology demonstrates the less animal products populations and people consume the thinner, healthier, longer they live on average. You simply have no idea what your talking about. Why deny reality? If you choose to consume aninal products it's OK to acknowledge the evidence is conclusive.. the less the better.

[@1welshdevil]

The first ten minutes of episode one were fascinating, the rest of it was trash, as a carnivore who's lost 62kg over the last three years, I have massive issues with it, as a documentary, it was trash.

[@mysticjedi6730]

Mean BMI was lowest in vegans (23.6 kg/m2) and incrementally higher in lacto-ovo vegetarians (25.7 kg/m2), pesco-vegetarians (26.3 kg/m2), semi-vegetarians (27.3 kg/m2), and nonvegetarians (28.8 kg/m2). Prevalence of type 2 diabetes increased from 2.9% in vegans to 7.6% in nonvegetarians; the prevalence was intermediate in participants consuming lacto-ovo (3.2%), pesco (4.8%), or semi-vegetarian (6.1%) diets. After adjustment for age, sex, ethnicity, education, income, physical activity, television watching, sleep habits, alcohol use, and BMI, vegans (OR 0.51 [95% CI 0.40-0.66]), lacto-ovo vegetarians (0.54 [0.49-0.60]), pesco-vegetarians (0.70 [0.61-0.80]), and semi-vegetarians (0.76 [0.65-0.90]) had a lower risk of type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2671114/#:~:text=RESULTS,28.8%20kg%2Fm2). The adventist health studies, the China study, the epic Oxford study, etc, etc, endless epidemiology demonstrates the less animal products populations and people consume the thinner, healthier, longer they live on average. You simply have no idea what your talking about. Why deny reality? If you choose to consume aninal products it's OK to acknowledge the evidence is conclusive.. the less the better.

[@1welshdevil]

@@mysticjedi6730 I genuinely don't know many healthy vegans, the garbage most of them eat, processed food, meat free burgers and sausages that have some abysmal ingredients. I genuinely think it's an unhealthy diet. Vegetarianism I totally get, but it's no wonder the vegan craze is starting to slow up. If they promoted whole foods, supplements etc, but they don't it's all vegan cookies and burgers, that stuff is garbage. I've now lost 11 stone as a carnivore. With a cholesterol of 3.9, the reality is that it works.

[@sportysbusiness]

I read the study document and it was clearly designed to be biased. The 'healthy' omnivore diet was the one I'd followed for most of my life, low fat meats and whole grains, that caused so many health issues. Based on those issues I went plant based for 2 years but my health got worse. Then I discovered low carb that lead to carnivore, and 4 years later all my health issues evolved! Until a study compares plant based to animal based it is impossible for anyone plant based to say it's the healthiest diet.

[@mysticjedi6730]

Mean BMI was lowest in vegans (23.6 kg/m2) and incrementally higher in lacto-ovo vegetarians (25.7 kg/m2), pesco-vegetarians (26.3 kg/m2), semi-vegetarians (27.3 kg/m2), and nonvegetarians (28.8 kg/m2). Prevalence of type 2 diabetes increased from 2.9% in vegans to 7.6% in nonvegetarians; the prevalence was intermediate in participants consuming lacto-ovo (3.2%), pesco (4.8%), or semi-vegetarian (6.1%) diets. After adjustment for age, sex, ethnicity, education, income, physical activity, television watching, sleep habits, alcohol use, and BMI, vegans (OR 0.51 [95% CI 0.40-0.66]), lacto-ovo vegetarians (0.54 [0.49-0.60]), pesco-vegetarians (0.70 [0.61-0.80]), and semi-vegetarians (0.76 [0.65-0.90]) had a lower risk of type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2671114/#:~:text=RESULTS,28.8%20kg%2Fm2). The adventist health studies, the China study, the epic Oxford study, etc, etc, endless epidemiology demonstrates the less animal products populations and people consume the thinner, healthier, longer they live on average. You simply have no idea what your talking about. Why deny reality? If you choose to consume aninal products it's OK to acknowledge the evidence is conclusive.. the less the better.