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Thomann's Guitars & Basses

Thomann's Guitars & Basses

Күн бұрын

Пікірлер: 202
@crystalrichards5677
@crystalrichards5677 3 жыл бұрын
My son (age 9) has played guitar for a couple of years now. He recently asked to learn the trumpet as well. As a parent looking to purchase a beginner instrument for a budding musician that seems to want to learn as many instruments as possible, I greatly appreciate this video.
@CarlyWaarly
@CarlyWaarly 3 жыл бұрын
Just have to love this guy, his presentation is flawless!
@theblytonian3906
@theblytonian3906 2 жыл бұрын
Concur.
@SC4649
@SC4649 6 жыл бұрын
I don't know why but I keep coming back to this video...I like this guy - "I'm American, Come On!"
@daystarbanduk
@daystarbanduk 6 жыл бұрын
Just going with my gut I think you liked the Yamaha the best :)
@FluffuGaming
@FluffuGaming 5 жыл бұрын
I might be biased as I play a Bach Strad, but i do prefer the sound from the Bach 501. Although the overtones from the Yamaha and the Thomann TR-5000 GL sound much better. at the end of the day It’s down to what you like how you play.
@tedjohnson9329
@tedjohnson9329 5 жыл бұрын
The best beginner's trumpet was a CONN 22B, circa 1942, I think,. It was at least for me. My dad rented it for me not knowing one trumpet from another. This was in 1953 and the cost was $7 per month, a lot of money in those days. I soloed in a school program, I was in 5th grade, and the solo was Oh, Mein Papa. So, at least I got off to a good start. Today, the Chinese, Taiwan, and other trumpets, excluding Indian trumpets, are pretty good, but slotting is hard. And they are hard to keep in tune. I've tested them all, and I believe that the Conn-Selmer Prelude is the best beginners trumpet.
@keeploving5850
@keeploving5850 3 ай бұрын
Great experience back in 53. How are you now with the trumpet? I'd like to know and learn to play the trumpet. I didn't liked it's sound a few years ago, and now after listening to trumpet/instrumental/orchestral music, 😏I enjoy it. Do you know the trumpet that Ray Anthony used in his albums from the 60s? Albums like, My Love Forgive Me, and Love is for the Two of Us. I think it's the melodies and the bouncing trumpet sound (I don't know what it's called) that are very beautiful.
@GabrielMartinezValois
@GabrielMartinezValois 28 күн бұрын
From all 5, I really liked how sounds Thomann TR-5000 GL! Probably my next purchase soon! Thanks a lot!
@rigz5112
@rigz5112 2 жыл бұрын
Gary’s one chill cat.
@carlosplascencia1677
@carlosplascencia1677 3 жыл бұрын
Some of the others did sound a bit better than the Jupiter but I was surprised I liked the sound of it that much. Very mellow and warm when compared to the others.
@tjtj3829
@tjtj3829 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks so much for your display of trumpets I have recently purchased the Jupiter 700 working great so far🎺😁
@HowardJohnstone
@HowardJohnstone 6 жыл бұрын
Excellent, it is absolutley necessary that the demonstrator has top intonation and can slot in the notes consistently, so that the horns can be accurately compared. Something should be said about scaling, e.i if any notes are off, even the slightest. Very good indeed, thank you.
@briancusworth
@briancusworth 5 жыл бұрын
That was a really great impartial review thank you
@briquetaverne
@briquetaverne 4 жыл бұрын
I went to a Salvation Army store as a 13 year old kid and bought a Olds, Ambassador cornet. I paid $15 bucks for it. When I turned 48, I got nostalgic and sent it off to get refurbished and replated at "Pettifor's" of Los Angeles Avenue, Elkhart, Indiana... They did a dynamite job of fixing, de-denting and replating everything. Cost was $155 Dollars in 1989. Badger State cases sold me a new leather clad horn case for $60 dollars. the horn and case were so beautiful I played it and coddled it for another 10 years. Now my Kids and Grand kids don't even care about muisic, they only either listen to rap or play on their cell phone apps!
@Retroairreports
@Retroairreports 4 жыл бұрын
briquetaverne You know I was liking the whole thing and then you randomly brought up your kids and bashed them. Got anything better to do?
@IIrandhandleII
@IIrandhandleII 4 жыл бұрын
That's a tragedy. Show them some good jazz.
@lepabrena78
@lepabrena78 4 жыл бұрын
@@Retroairreports he maybe disappointed in what is happening, and it is true, most kids whine, don't help out, are picky eaters, and are on cellphones a lot and demand it all--our daughter loves music, and I am about to look for a beginner trumpet for our almost 5 yr old, we don't hate technology, but must have music, meals together, and respect. Hope they turn out to be good adults, but as we all know, that doesn't always work out... I love it when family keeps special items and hand it over to the next generation, maybe perhaps a great grandchild would like one, maybe a different one, if not the one we liked as young children, there is soo much in music, my daughter loves the piano, and tin whistle,but she is so good in violin, I am hoping she keeps at it, but afraid she doesn't "love" it enough...please be kind...
@sherrybirchall8677
@sherrybirchall8677 3 жыл бұрын
@@IIrandhandleII oh, I didn't hear that.
@Tabu11211
@Tabu11211 5 жыл бұрын
God damn you're a good salesman taking notes on this one.
@hulado
@hulado 4 жыл бұрын
i think the jupiter has the best overall sound. lows sound stable and the highs dont sound tinny. nice video.
@zacharyhernandez4579
@zacharyhernandez4579 Жыл бұрын
Man, it just feels so good!
@the-selfish-meme7585
@the-selfish-meme7585 2 жыл бұрын
My Bach Strad was lost in transit so I bought a Yahama for a gig, Still using it.
@funter06
@funter06 10 ай бұрын
Is the Thomann 5000 GL the same one as the Tr-500 GL? Can't find the 5000 series in the webpage
@painnutplay9
@painnutplay9 5 жыл бұрын
I bought a Thomann tr200 Bb trumpet. I am very happy with it and bought it for learning to play the instrument. I have a light problem though, the white little piece on top of the valve that is glued came off while practicing, maybe the heat of the finger softened the glue. Does anyone know what kind of glue I can use to put it back on? Thanks and sorry if I used the word "glue" too much. :P
@piraetje675
@piraetje675 5 жыл бұрын
superglue i guess
@PeterRabbit000
@PeterRabbit000 4 жыл бұрын
Thank you for doing this comparison!
@samiRetro777
@samiRetro777 Ай бұрын
beautiful instrument !
@raoul355
@raoul355 2 жыл бұрын
stellar playing my friend!
@Invert_Scrub
@Invert_Scrub 5 жыл бұрын
Hey Thomann, great video! I'm a low brass player, so I'd love to see some Euphonium/Tuba videos!
@tedc6694
@tedc6694 2 жыл бұрын
Looking for daughter 3rd year. But wow, fun to hear this guy play
@utai4571
@utai4571 4 жыл бұрын
Thank you, that's the best "how to break up with your girlfriend" tutorial on youtube! can't wait to start learning how to play the trumpet!
@bernardomanara389
@bernardomanara389 2 жыл бұрын
Hi Gary. Why don't you test the Bach TR450 for us too. It looks like to be a cannon ball. Just to know your opinion.
@orlandogonzalez638
@orlandogonzalez638 5 жыл бұрын
What happened to his head at 9:35 lol
@Prometheushighaf
@Prometheushighaf 4 жыл бұрын
He's secretly an AI computer using holograms technology so he can play the trumpet on KZbin as a human
@kevinqu7701
@kevinqu7701 4 жыл бұрын
reptilian alert
@jacobcunningham388
@jacobcunningham388 4 жыл бұрын
These man think I can’t see their tricks 😂
@cesaramor
@cesaramor 4 жыл бұрын
error matrix
@jasonlovi8745
@jasonlovi8745 3 жыл бұрын
Lmao! Yo, wtf?!
@z408rmf
@z408rmf 6 жыл бұрын
I guess, as a beginner, the most important thing ist that your trumpet doesn't let you down. It has to be mechanically solid with good working valves and a stable intonation. In this stage you don't know if a bad tone is your fault or just a bad working instrument. The experienced player knows it immediately. And for the Thomann 5000 Series comes in very cool colours, so it's just a joy to play it and you grab ist every time with pleasure.
@ThomannsGuitarsBasses
@ThomannsGuitarsBasses 6 жыл бұрын
Solid advice! Which one was your first trumpet?
@eddiedpaulding550
@eddiedpaulding550 4 жыл бұрын
Thanks, I was thinking about buying used, however I'm now convinced beginner new is better.
@dr.michaelschmidt8103
@dr.michaelschmidt8103 3 жыл бұрын
Eddie please read the opposing point of view in my reply above ^^.
@mikerouleau3729
@mikerouleau3729 6 жыл бұрын
Am I crazy to think the TR200 sounded as good if not better than the other horns? And I don’t say that because I just ordered one. 👊
@kd8fkt
@kd8fkt 5 жыл бұрын
Mike, how is it treating you? I just ordered one!
@carlosjbg
@carlosjbg 5 жыл бұрын
@@kd8fkt Same here. What about you?
@peteruppman2700
@peteruppman2700 2 ай бұрын
Yep. I'm a Pro trumpet player. Thought the same thing
@BratzFanz123
@BratzFanz123 3 жыл бұрын
Which one would you recommend for jazz?
@joensab
@joensab 2 жыл бұрын
Gary, I could hear your listening to yourself... on the wending path the Jupiter was allowing at closing. A Magic for the dollar.....and hey, that TR 5000 GL...a nice sound!
@antoniogerardo7696
@antoniogerardo7696 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks a ton, forreal. subscribed and Thomann fan now
@donyorchs6906
@donyorchs6906 Жыл бұрын
Thanks for the video ,im a begginer i qould buy the bach!! Thanks
@Tabu11211
@Tabu11211 5 жыл бұрын
Did you go to school for sales or something, I'm just blown away.
@0815Snickersboy
@0815Snickersboy 5 жыл бұрын
Blown away lol brass jokes
@fonkamex
@fonkamex 4 жыл бұрын
Super review by a top musician
@CarlyWaarly
@CarlyWaarly 5 жыл бұрын
Was a toss up between Bach 501 and teh Yamaha 5335gs ii.........but the yamaha found us!
@gdotone1
@gdotone1 2 жыл бұрын
very helpful. Jupiter is the one for me.
@pedrodavidrodrigues3481
@pedrodavidrodrigues3481 5 жыл бұрын
Are you using the mouthpiece that comes with each trumpet ?! ..pls
@brian_urb3157
@brian_urb3157 4 жыл бұрын
No, he said he used his own mouthpiece
@ericmartinez4387
@ericmartinez4387 4 жыл бұрын
If you’re asking because you want to know if you should by one you should use the one that comes with the trumpet because it is most likely a 7c or 11b4 which is a good starter mouthpiece
@1PITIFULDUDE
@1PITIFULDUDE 5 жыл бұрын
Digg’n the big SPL meter 💪
@paulgrimm6850
@paulgrimm6850 3 жыл бұрын
The Jupiter sounds the best.
@whiteboyfrik5864
@whiteboyfrik5864 2 жыл бұрын
Hi, i'm looking for a beginners trumpet, Thomann are right around my budget, but can't find the differences between TR 200, TR 500 L and all the S,M , GL and other nomenclature in your store. Thanks beforehand
@JoeDoe103
@JoeDoe103 2 жыл бұрын
Clifford Brown's rendition of stardust is my absolute favorite
@jmhighlife77
@jmhighlife77 Жыл бұрын
🔥 🔥🔥🔥
@CarlyWaarly
@CarlyWaarly 4 жыл бұрын
To correct you on the Yamaha valves, they gave us a problem on the YTR 5335gsii, became sluggish and had to be sent to workshop, the fault was still there some 4 months when it was returned. So be warned, take a look on the forums, the valves are problematic. It was sent back for refund and now we are looking at Getzen.
@thedamndiz2343
@thedamndiz2343 4 жыл бұрын
I've had similar issues with Yamaha as far as sluggishness on valves, but have also had some great experiences with them, especially if u're using that valve oil of theirs with the clear little bottle with a navy blue cap.... Straight🔥🔥🔥🔥. Getzen on the other hand, some of the best valves I've ever had the pleasure of fingering.....and that was on a beginners model after I worked those bitches in. Don't know their secret, but God damnit they know what the fuck they're doing over there. My 2¢ and then some.
@stuartcombie8736
@stuartcombie8736 3 жыл бұрын
Did you mix synthetic and non-synthetic valve oils. That can gum up the valves?
@mattiafioravanti8475
@mattiafioravanti8475 5 жыл бұрын
Nice video, can you do one with flugelhorns as well!?!?!?
@spamaccount1513
@spamaccount1513 5 жыл бұрын
The acb flugels are great
@Seethenhagen
@Seethenhagen 4 жыл бұрын
13:32 RED SPY IS IN THE BASE!
@kittykitty7802
@kittykitty7802 4 жыл бұрын
lol
@dannymollevanger990
@dannymollevanger990 2 ай бұрын
Thank you, this is gratis stuff.
@thesotongzzz
@thesotongzzz 3 жыл бұрын
Hi Thomann, do you recommend buying a C or Bb trumpet as beginner?
@hayesman76
@hayesman76 4 жыл бұрын
So what, exactly, makes some trumpets stuffy and others more free-blowing? Whatever are some trumpets and flugelhorns that are known to be more free-blowing and well-slotting than most? Thanks.
@pitgroove.37_66
@pitgroove.37_66 6 ай бұрын
Did you guys discontinue the 5000 trumpet?
@michaelg3074
@michaelg3074 4 жыл бұрын
excellent presentation.
@MrMrdeniel
@MrMrdeniel 10 ай бұрын
I always wanting to find the best trumpet for marching, easy to play on the high note, loud and clear
@marike1100
@marike1100 6 жыл бұрын
What no Monette trumpets, lol? All of the trumpets sound great in the presenter's hands. Yamaha has never let me down, but there are lots of choices these days.
@BanjoPicker
@BanjoPicker 5 жыл бұрын
I would be really appreciative and interested in hearing what alternatives you would suggest.
@alvarocerritos
@alvarocerritos 5 жыл бұрын
The 5 you see here are clearly for kids/beginners. Monettes are pretty much strictly for pros.
@Trumpophone7
@Trumpophone7 5 жыл бұрын
This comment confuses me, first of all this is a video demonstrating student models that top out at like $1000 meanwhile monnetes start at like $10,000, second of all the trumpets do not rlly sound that good in the presenters hand cuz his tone is kinda weird (unless they have a rlly shitty mic) but the third part I agree with, Yamahas r always at least somewhat decent even if other brands can outperform for an individual for a certain type of trumpet
@rakutzimbel4539
@rakutzimbel4539 4 жыл бұрын
Chelsea bridge!! one of my favourite ballads :D
@artvandelay8090
@artvandelay8090 2 жыл бұрын
Jason Harrelson claims that his experiments yielded that the ovate tuning slide actually creates more blowing resistance than the standard or squared off tuning slide. Also, through my own playing experience, I've discovered that the reversed lead pipe and downhill slide designs do not affect blowing resistance or air flow enough to make it worth the trouble of making the instrument that way and worth the extra trouble of maintaining the slides when they're configured that way. If you take a puff on a cigarette and blow the smoke through the horn, it takes a lot of playing before you finally see the smoke come out of the bell of the horn. This tells us that the air doesn't go whipping through the trumpet at warp speed, to the point where one the edges of slides on the inside of the tubing is going to make any difference whatsoever. And when you stop to think how small the throat of a mouthpiece is, that's the bottleneck in the whole process. Because of the small size of the mouthpiece throat, the air is not going to go flowing through that horn at a high rate of speed. The horn is just an amplification and sound conditioning device. I have a horn with the reverse lead pipe design, and all of the slides have that reversed female to male configuration. That means that when all of the slides are removed, there are going to be a male (inner) part of the slide on every single slide. The disadvantage of this is that If you ever have to clean off these inner slide parts with either some extra fine steel wool, or a dremel polishing tool, it creates the risk of accidentally hitting the external finish on other parts of the horn and putting all kinds of cosmetic flaws on the horn. I HATE THAT! This whole concept of reversed slides was a bad idea that serves no purpose, it's only done to satisfy a perception. I wish horn manufacturers would stop making horns this way. It's just one more reason why the old vintage horns were better. The manufacturing quality was better and the mix of the alloys were better. We never heard of red-rot in the old days. That only happens with these newer, more cheaply made horns. Today, you have all of these step-bore and poly-bore designs that are supposed to give the horn better intonation with itself. I've got news for you - the newer horns STILL don't play perfectly in tune with themselves even with all of that step-bore stuff.
@Bigandrewm
@Bigandrewm 6 жыл бұрын
I wanne see your high-range embouchure!
@garywilder4691
@garywilder4691 6 жыл бұрын
ANDREW!! :) :)
@Bigandrewm
@Bigandrewm 6 жыл бұрын
Out of curiosity, why the decimeter?
@garywilder4691
@garywilder4691 6 жыл бұрын
They have it there for the guitar videos... they took it away once and the public outcry was apparently significant. So, it stays.
@abibodlogistics
@abibodlogistics 4 жыл бұрын
Do you have any idea about the Kaizer C-Series (4000) Intermediate Trumpet B Flat Bb Anniversary Edition .
@TheHelvetican
@TheHelvetican 4 жыл бұрын
Nice! Cheslea Bridge at 3:44
@pierluigipaniccia9688
@pierluigipaniccia9688 2 жыл бұрын
The song played with the TR200?!? Please!!! 🙏
@Matesomak
@Matesomak 4 жыл бұрын
Please, can somebody recommend me trumpet for not professional player? I'm thinking of buying Yamaha YTR-4335 GS, is there a better option?
@leglobishfcgb
@leglobishfcgb 4 жыл бұрын
13:31 Trumpet player's conclusion
@PEEK0__23
@PEEK0__23 2 жыл бұрын
Hi I'm the child looking for a trumpet I'm wondering where u can get the Yamaha trumpet can u tell me please?
@WOWTODAZ
@WOWTODAZ 2 жыл бұрын
the yamaha sounded nice especcially when playing softley
@golf4funjn532
@golf4funjn532 6 жыл бұрын
Great audio. What mic did you use?
@lawrencelevinson
@lawrencelevinson 2 жыл бұрын
🔥🔥🔥
@thenostalgiareview1_237
@thenostalgiareview1_237 5 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the tip I know now
@TheTimothy8136
@TheTimothy8136 4 жыл бұрын
Bummer that you don’t put the prices of these!!
@sculpture14469
@sculpture14469 2 жыл бұрын
very nice video
@ROY-COLLEY
@ROY-COLLEY 4 жыл бұрын
Could you tell me what Thomann Horn with serila number 14498 model is please ?
@slvalive
@slvalive 4 жыл бұрын
Are the elude etr 100 and 200 series trumpets a good buy?
@balin7889
@balin7889 5 жыл бұрын
I have a Bach tr500, that's pretty similar to the tr501 right?
@ThomannsGuitarsBasses
@ThomannsGuitarsBasses 5 жыл бұрын
Quite! You can find the TR500 specs on Bach's official website. Check ours to see the tr501 specs. You made a great choice, by the way! //Simon
@balin7889
@balin7889 5 жыл бұрын
@@ThomannsGuitarsBasses thank you
@diz3944
@diz3944 3 жыл бұрын
Other than the price, what is the difference between a student trumpet and a intermediate one?
@frankgerace5997
@frankgerace5997 2 жыл бұрын
Good question. As a trumpet player myself, I don’t think there is much of a difference, except for the price.
@philen
@philen 5 жыл бұрын
this is the best review i've ever watched!
@oliversjmildmay2970
@oliversjmildmay2970 4 жыл бұрын
Intresting Thanks
@djijspeakerguy4628
@djijspeakerguy4628 4 жыл бұрын
I had problems with Yamaha valves corroding on an advantage trumpet in my first year of middle school, and the Jupiter that replaced it gave me no issues until I accidentally dented the valve casing or something. I have an accent one now, and the issue with that one is the mouthpiece it comes with, it is super uncomfortable. So I have a soft spot for the Jupiter instrument. It was easiest to play high with it.
@holton345
@holton345 9 ай бұрын
It's really too bad that Olds shuttered in 1979. The Ambassador line was and STILL IS the BEST line of beginner instruments.
@azrrielfire4444
@azrrielfire4444 4 жыл бұрын
J 0:44, 0:59, y 2:53, 3:24, b 5:31
@user-sp8eb6iz7f
@user-sp8eb6iz7f 3 жыл бұрын
I didn't know Tom Hanks could even play trumpet.
@chrisbee9164
@chrisbee9164 2 жыл бұрын
The THOMANN 5000 seems to be no longer available. What has replaced it please ??
@jonplopp6643
@jonplopp6643 2 жыл бұрын
It's a whole lot to do with the skill of the person behind the mouth-piece, never mind the instrument. Like the guy who said to another at a grouse shoot who had shot far more than himself....you must have a really brilliant gun!
@frankgerace5997
@frankgerace5997 2 жыл бұрын
You’re right-it’s more to do with the player than the horn, and if you play as well as the guy in this video does, you’ve worked at it for a long time, and any horn you play will sound good..at the same time, you do want to give a beginner an instrument that’s good quality, yet affordable.
@mrchickene1805
@mrchickene1805 6 жыл бұрын
What is the price of those trumpets?
@elsebethlind1076
@elsebethlind1076 4 жыл бұрын
Which trompet did Chet Baker play on ?
@brucescott4261
@brucescott4261 4 жыл бұрын
Elsebeth Lind ...He used a Martin Committee during the 'fifties and 'sixties.
@sc5shout
@sc5shout Ай бұрын
Is there something cheaper than ~750$? Like 200$? I don't actually know if it's for me and I don't want to spend that much money.
@pgpete
@pgpete 4 жыл бұрын
I liked the bark of the Yamaha ( oh.. bad pun)
@escobar2021
@escobar2021 2 жыл бұрын
Yamaha YTR-3335 AND Thomann TR-5000 GL BEST
@cirdesvieira395
@cirdesvieira395 2 жыл бұрын
Parabéns.
@SmugSuspenders
@SmugSuspenders 6 жыл бұрын
2:53 "Distracting Trumpet"
@frankgerace5997
@frankgerace5997 2 жыл бұрын
When you tested the first Thomann horn, you pushed the third valve down and moved the FIRST valve slide..huh?? You’re obviously a professional-caliber player, but I didn’t understand that..anyway, all the horns sounded good to me, because they were being played by somebody who knows what he’s doing.
@michaelhony1645
@michaelhony1645 4 жыл бұрын
Please do a video on least expensive professional trumpets among Getzen, Back, Yamaha...
@charlottegodbolt5138
@charlottegodbolt5138 3 жыл бұрын
So how much is the Thomann 5000 series one??
@charlottegodbolt5138
@charlottegodbolt5138 3 жыл бұрын
Ah! €500-550? Is that correct?
@lordundhimself1310
@lordundhimself1310 3 жыл бұрын
America 🤘🏿
@smokewegg5291
@smokewegg5291 4 жыл бұрын
Any trumpet will do
@boothstreetbrass
@boothstreetbrass 4 жыл бұрын
What mic is he using?
@Ektor2
@Ektor2 5 жыл бұрын
Where are the Thomann trumpets made? US?
@robgrune3284
@robgrune3284 4 жыл бұрын
China.
@janae_a_ryder3147
@janae_a_ryder3147 2 жыл бұрын
@@robgrune3284 no wrong Europe
@gabagoogooblancmange7408
@gabagoogooblancmange7408 6 жыл бұрын
Jupiter and the last one were best
@liadbar-el8570
@liadbar-el8570 6 жыл бұрын
Playing a Taylor (Monette copy) and a Schilke (1958) which was my horn in Jr. High school and have found that from playing in many orchestras and bands, it's the player that makes the biggest difference, not the horn. The plastic Tromba C trumpet would be the easiest to play for a student.
@BanjoPicker
@BanjoPicker 5 жыл бұрын
Where is the Thoman Manufactured?
@BW-fz5kf
@BW-fz5kf 5 жыл бұрын
J. S. Germany
@iokarii
@iokarii 5 жыл бұрын
China
@dvroom24
@dvroom24 4 жыл бұрын
Thomann trumpets are made in China. They test them in Germany before selling them. The Yamaha in this video is also made in China, and the Bach. Jupiter is made in Taiwan. But they are all good trumpets.
@CarlyWaarly
@CarlyWaarly 3 жыл бұрын
Yamaha valves? You have to be kidding, three new trumpets later we resigned to the fact that the Yamaha has problems with their Monel valves so would not recommend (5335gsii)
@niclasschmidbauer5236
@niclasschmidbauer5236 4 жыл бұрын
What song is that at Minute 4?
@spamaccount1513
@spamaccount1513 4 жыл бұрын
You should check out jean pual usa. I got mine for like 450 but they have models that olay amazingly for like 180
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