Thomas Ligotti's Corporate Horror

[@bob12474]

I read the conspiracy against the human race then Ligotti became one of my favorite author.

[@crimsondesolation]

4:44 *misses the entire point of the story* But seriously, not everyone will understand Ligotti, and I don’t blame them.

[@EdwardHaas-e8x]

This may have been the wrong choice to expose you to Ligotti. Since you like the stories of Aikman (so do I!!) you might enjoy his earlier stories from the collections Songs of a Dreamer and Grimscribe. Short works with a certain quality of total *weirdness*. I think Penguin has a collection with both of those books in it. Plus another of him sort of mid-career before the corporate horror period we see in the book you reviewed. Also you might want to find some interviews with him. He's very thoughtful and well read. Not just some guy who hated his job LOL.

[@james63853]

I love Current 93 and Ligotti. I was just yesterday listening to their collaboration album. So good. I think the main difference between Ligotti and Lovecraft is, that Ligotti doesn´t see death as a final redeemer after all the horrors of life (like Lovecraft does in a way), but as a horrifying return to the "blackness where we originally came from". That there´s no blissful "nothingness" on the other side of the curtain, but that the true horror actually starts after we die when we shift into this "malignant" black nothingness. In Ligotti´s prose, the universe in consciously evil, whereas in Lovecraft´s it is just indifferent towards people.

[@9-nine-ix528]

What was the Current 93/Ligotti collaboration album? Or do you mean the I Have a Special Plan For This World EP?

[@franco5506]

@@9-nine-ix528 Ligotti collaborated in the albums In A Foreign Town, In A Foreign Land (1997 and 2002), I Have a Special Plan for This World, This Degenerate Little Town (2001) and The Unholy City (2003), and even played guitar on Current 93's contribution to Foxtrot

[@9-nine-ix528]

@@franco5506 I forgot about In a Foreign Town, In a Foreign Land. You mentioned others that are new to me. Cheers!

[@big_cheese_1228]

@@franco5506I FUCKING LOVE THE UNHOLY CITYYYY

[@DarkLink606]

Although often conflated, nihilism and pessimism are very distinct. Ligotti is clearly a pessimist. He acknowledges there are values, although strictly thetered to the sense of suffering and the futility of trying to overcome it, that is bad, all that creates or enhances suffering is bad, not being born is the greatest good. While not a nihilist, but a pessimist,, Ligotti also doesn't write the type of horror that is spooky, campfire horrors, no. People don't have free will as you suppose. You can do what you will - including quit your job - but you cannot will what you will. Maybe the protagonist is not even such a weak and lazy guy after all, he just found himself in a situation where nothing works for him and where every path to prosperity and rewards would require a much different constitution than his own, and even quitting is impossible. The protagonist would have to be a different character altogether to find anything worthwhile. Just as there are real people who are so trapped in a situation and so broken it's effectively impossible to leave. The horror comes from the realization that there are no hopes for anything better.

[@adamtorkelson8272]

Several points need to be made about the “flaw” of why the characters just don’t quit or get other jobs, etc. It goes beyond just what you mentioned in both Ligotti’s context and in real life. In “Our Temporary Supervisor” the narrator tries to resign but is told by the company’s telephone operator that “the company is not accepting resignations at this time”. Further, the company keeps its employees docile with the drugs they need to survive the futile grind of work, until the employee(s) have reached a level of dependency on the company for drugs, and they eventually stop thinking about anything at all. This closely alludes to the robber baron situation a bit. As in the days of robber barons, the company would even produce its own money and lend it to employees, but they also owned the stores in the town where goods were purchased to survive. But they raised the prices so that the employees couldn’t afford them and had to borrow more from the company. When payday comes, instead of getting paid, you actually owed the company money. You couldn’t quit because you owed them money and their stores debt, and there may have been the threat of going to jail for unpaid debts (like Debtor Prisons). In a real-life setting, with remedial jobs, quitting one for another doesn’t usually solve very much. Why quit McDonald’s in order to work at Burger King? Also, to suggest that changing your surroundings will change the way a clinically depressed person feels shows a lack of understanding for what it means to be diagnosed with depression, bipolar disorder, etc. Here’s a hint: a person who has a mental disorder will feel depressed no matter their surroundings or situation. That is hard for people without the disorder to understand, but it is true. I do not have time to go further into it.

[@synthmalicious7541]

Yeah I thought that was kind of silly, but people who don’t get that even the most high paying job could still be a terrible way to use your life will never understand the idea of work being slavery.

[@9-nine-ix528]

The short story, The Library of Byzantium, in his Grimscribe collection, is the one Ligotti tale I've so far read that actually ends on a positive note. If anyone else has read it, I'd like to know their thoughts.

[@adamtorkelson8272]

These stories are not only Lovecraftian as you suggested, (with a very small touch of Dunsany in that they are in an alternate fantasy world), they are similar to Franz Kafka as well, in that they are appreciations of the bleak absurdity of existence, in addition to being somewhat autobiographical like Kafka. Darrell Schweitzer (who first published two of these stories in Weird Tales) writes: “His stories are not painful, self-pitying cries; they are *appreciations* of the absurdity of existence. Small surprise that the god of the small town of Mirocaw is a harlequin [referring to the horror tale ‘The Last Feast of Harlequin’]…whose dominant characteristic may be therefore described, not as *horror* or *fear*, but truly dark and terrible laughter. His fiction is decidedly post-modern in that it is completely self-aware.” To the point, the irony in “My Case for Retributive Action” revolves around whether anything truly is “unendurable” or not, or whether any of the characters believe it. Because the character inflicts a hideous doom upon his therapist, all the while reassuring him that “nothing is unendurable”, but he himself had been reassured the same thing from the therapist. And the climax to “Our Temporary Supervisor” isn’t cliché at all, with its dilemma being resolved by the very nihilism that you claim is pointless. Because as he comes to the understanding that he was hit by a truck and is lying in a coma, his career of vengeance has been accomplished out-of-body, though the results are apparently quite real, not illusions or dreams. But he can only kill so many, and now he has one choice left, before he runs out of energy-he can wipe out the boss, OR he can go back to the hospital ward where his physical self lies, and kill himself-this being his *one and only chance* to escape the horror of existence.

[@Sherlika_Gregori]

You should read “Them “ by Kay Dick. It’s a very disturbing dystopian novella. It’s out of print but it’s going to be re-released early next year.

[@LoganAlbright73]

Thanks for the recommendation! I’ll check it out!

[@adamtorkelson8272]

There are so many things wrong with this review it’s hard to know where to begin. First, these are not all “mid-management” positions. The narrator in “My Case for Retributive Action” is simply a “processor of forms” at a “storefront office”. We never know exactly what the Quine Organization produces or sells. But we know there are piles of endless paperwork. In “Our Temporary Supervisor” the narrator assembles incomprehensible metal parts. These stories are anything but cliché corporate horror. For one thing they are fantasies, clearly with supernatural overtones. The setting is “beyond the border”, but the border of what exactly we don’t know. He could be using this as a double meaning in order to place the setting in a liminal space. And the Quine Organization is not your typical business entity. It is described as a commercial organization AND a political one (the nation) which have “approached total assimilation of one by the other”. This alludes to a robber baron type situation of the 19th century perhaps. The town itself seems to be controlled by the organization. It runs the apartment houses, pharmacies, medical centers, etc.

[@reaganwiles_art]

Phil Ford and J.F. Martel, who host the podcast Weird Studies (which I cannot recommend enough), have published at least one Ligotti podcast and reference him frequently (IF I am remembering correctly). Thanks as always L.A.. I thought of another writer I'd recommend (forgive my obnoxious presumption, ignore it if you wish, but I think you will enjoy this writer otherwise I would not bother): Russell Kirk, a story writer. "The Surly Sullen Bell" for instance, a short story. Kirk was a conservative social commentator, an outspoken proponent of the cultural and religious criticism of T. S. Eliot. I read one collection, one time. I haven't forgotten it: it's anomalous. His affinity with Eliot makes him unforgettable to me, and discomfiting! Eliot himself (and his poems "The Waste Land", "The Hollow Men", and his plays "Murder in the Cathedral", "The Family Reunion" are some of the greatest horror of the twentieth century) is a favorite enigma of mine.

[@adamtorkelson8272]

Even if we agreed on what was good and evil, it is impossible to categorize one person as either. If anything, we are all “grey”. Helping an old lady walk across the street does not make you “good”, and holding up a liquor store does not make a person “evil”. We’ve all done “good” things and have all done “bad” things. Again, it’s situational. Like stealing glucogen from a pharmacy in order to prevent someone from going into a diabetic coma outside the store. While not all of us have committed murder, we have all at one time lied, cheated, and probably stolen something we shouldn’t have. Even you. Yes, some more than others, but at what point is one person good and one person evil? I doubt very few people would ever call themselves “evil” when asked. We all pretty much consider ourselves “good”. I really see very little point in religious horror, “good” vs. “evil”. I can’t think of anything more non-sensical and boring. Satan knows he’s going to lose. We know it. God’s all-powerful and can’t be hurt in the slightest sense at all. We go to heaven if we die. We are always in a win-win situation no matter how dire it looks. Boring.

[@MattWall]

Thanks for the vid! That was rad.

[@davidalaimo2300]

“light and easy”? unless i’m an idiot i always thought his stuff was pretty difficult and rather dense. i had trouble getting through this particular book but it’s definitely not really where anyone should start with ligotti. corporate horror is not his main genre and, given that it’s not a genre that you’re a fan of, i really would have just gone for his short stories which are more fantastical, surreal, and heavy on the puppetry. but i don’t think this is light reading…he’s far from dean koontz

[@Jharrycornelius]

There is no control. You are an automaton.

[@adamtorkelson8272]

What is actually ironic in this video, is you calling Ligotti cliché and then you describing the horror fiction you like which is nothing more than the most cliché formula in ALL of fiction, not just horror. Good vs. Evil (which S.T. Joshi calls “Naïve Polar Moralizations”) is unrealistic; it’s an illusion mostly purported by religion in order to deal with their fears of the unknown and the world around them. It presupposes the following: there is both “good” and “evil” in the world; there is more good than evil; good will always triumph over evil in the end. Even if these statements weren’t based on relativity, they simply aren’t true. #1, what is good and what is evil is relative to the observer. From the point of view of a lion, eating the zebra is a good thing to do or else the lion and its pride are going to die; but from the point of view of the zebra, the lion is evil. However, this goes beyond meat-eaters. Plant eaters compete for food as well. If some plant eater is overpopulating and eats all the plants that a smaller, less-populated animal needs, it appears evil, but to them it is good. There are situations in which it is okay to murder (such as self defense), or to lie (such as telling Nazis at your door that you have no Jews in your home even though Anne Frank’s family is hiding in your attic).

[@parlabaneisback]

08:52 Not sure if he's lesser known, there'a a Penguin Classics edition of "Songs of a Dead Dreamer and Grimscribe"

[@LoganAlbright73]

We could argue about this for a thousand years and never reach a conclusion. The point is, I only just heard of him.

[@hello-nr5cz]

4 years later that's about the only work I can get off from an e-commerce site rather than conventional bookstores

[@jankowalski7510]

Have you read The Conspiracy Against the Human Race?

[@LoganAlbright73]

I didn’t even know there was a conspiracy against the human race! Is it lizard people?

[@jankowalski7510]

@@LoganAlbright73 Apparently, according to Ligotti in his book, it's optimists, natalists and even human consciousness. I guess we all had the same thoughts when we were teenagers. But we grew out of it. But seriously, have you read it? It's like the most known Ligotti's book.

[@LoganAlbright73]

@@jankowalski7510 I haven’t. I’ll have to add it to the list. Thanks for the recommendation!

[@jankowalski7510]

@@LoganAlbright73 No problem!

[@dopaminecloud]

@@jankowalski7510 It's not "growing out of it". It's "growing back into" the construct you left for a second.

[@quinnkerno3261]

Is it solipsistic in here, or is it just me?

[@bcreed9348]

Thanks. I'll pass on this one. I'm sick of echo-exsistentialist writers. It's too easy. They don't have to think. We're actually living in a horror story right now and the stakes are very high.

[@LoganAlbright73]

I completely empathize with that sentiment.

[@dopaminecloud]

I dislike your dismissal intensely. You could say this for all genres themes and directions because they all naturally flow from reality the same way. By this logic, no writer ever has to think.