Why The Zone of Interest Does Not Let You See

[@blueegg4198]

“Right now we stand here as men who refute their Jewishness and the Holocaust being hijacked by an occupation which has led to conflict for so many innocent people. Whether the victims of October the 7th in Israel, or the ongoing attack on Gaza, all the victims, this dehumanization, how do we resist?” ~ Jonathan Glazer

[@d.sfilms7677]

How do we resist 😢💔

[@haseebirshad]

Ugh i love you flight free palestine till its backwards 🍉🍉🍉

[@soccerandtrack10]

This is why i think isreal is more hypricrats then nazis, the nazis/raceist attacked every1 and stole power in u.s.,canada/europe,so no1 is attacking them when they attack people. its jewish people=theres 2 words to say people hate them. and theyre attacking random people. (not even for land=because they didnt own it for 1800 years.). ninja help palistine. because the 2nd hypicrates made palistine scared of seeing u.s. stuff on planes or boats now=research cia history/u.s. history= its not muslum people that are terrorists. the u.s has LITTERLLY been attacking countries and doing the knee cap thing for smaller countries to either=get money, or stop freedom. yes. all of it is propaganda so rich raceists can act look good people without feeling guilty.

[@ayalashoshani986]

"Using words like 'occupation' to describe Jewish citizens defending a homeland that began thousands of years ago, and was recognized as a state by the United Nations, distorts history. Such a statement reinforces the plot of modernity that feeds growing anti-Jewish hatred around the world, in the United States and in Hollywood. Every The death of a civilian in Gaza is tragic, but Israel is not targeting the civilians. The moment Hamas releases the hostages and surrenders, this is the moment when this heartbreaking war will end." This is a quote from a response letter signed by over 1000 actors and Hollywood industry workers, as a response to the director's statement. The Jewish director, who, out of sheer stupidity and insolence, decided to appropriate our Judaism for the purpose of creating a moral comparison between the Nazi regime, which sought to exterminate an entire race of people, and the way in which the State of Israel works to prevent its destruction. Just a terrible and shocking false comparison. Shame that he is part of our people.

[@Mumra2K]

*dehumanisation Mr Glazer is British.

[@FreakieFan]

One of the most unsettling aspects from this film as an audience member that after an hour or so I started to (unintentionally) ignore or not hear the soundscape anymore because it was so persistent and droning, so I started to filter it out of my perception as a viewer. Near the end I started to notice it again, and I realized exactly why it is possible for the camp commander and his wife to keep on living their lives as they do, because for them it's the same. They don't hear it anymore and are desensitized to the sound, just like I was as a viewer after only an hour or so. That confrontational realization was quite shocking.

[@Laura-gd4ku]

Yes exactly I had to put effort in and focus on the sound (I sometimes closed my eyes) to hear it. It’s like you have to stop yourself to become one of the family members, you have to intentionally acknowledge what is happening around. I guess that’s part of the message, they said multiple times it’s a film about toda, about dehumanisation. We do this blocking out everyday when we watch the news

[@MultiSUPERLATIVO]

@FreakieFan Hello. We must remember that, in addition to the constant sound of violence (which we have become accustomed to), we, as spectators, cannot smell the horrible odor of human flesh being burned in the ovens, daily, without stopping. In the film, Hedwig says that it took her more than 3 years to tidy up the garden and the plant greenhouse, so they have been living in such circumstances for at least 4 years. It only took Hedwig's mother a few days to feel oppressed in the house and then the old woman fled.

[@rsb8380]

The way they approached the sound really reminded me of Son of Saul, another recent Holocaust movie which is also a masterpiece and which sound is used to tell the story. Nobody is saying much about it but I’m assuming that was a big influence on this film.

[@Thewhiteandorange]

the answer to 17:43, to what extent has the suffering around us become background noise: Palestine and over 15,000 dead kids, ongoing. The answer to 17:45 is no, it's not possible for a film to shatter a sense of complacency... nor shine a limelight of hypocrisy of excusing mass murder.

[@MultiSUPERLATIVO]

@@Thewhiteandorange Good day. I would like to suggest you take a look at the atrocities of the Hamas men on October 7th on video. You don't mention anything about this or about the barbarities committed by these sweet Muslims on the Israeli hostages. Your defense point is biased.

[@francisfrain6385]

I watched this movie in cinemas and it's probably one of the most disturbing non graphic movies out there. The fact that it made me feel so uncomfortable without showing a single moment of violence is incredible.Truly a masterpiece.

[@VladiDusil]

I didn't watch the movie in the cinemas, but will second your sentiment about the film. The degree of discomfort it caused by subtly insinuating the horror through sound was stunning. This one will stick with me the same way that Schindler's List did when I watched it as a teenager.

[@Zett76]

I agree. I watched it at home, but it was unsettling and haunting nonetheless. Tension from start to finish, created by everything we DON'T see. Which is, after all, one of the main "tricks" in horror - we are more afraid of the monster that is out of sight.

[@Rickyfingers]

Can you believe this movie is PG-13?

[@camelliasinensis219]

@@RickyfingersI think that is a good thing actually, gives the film a wider reach. I mean I think even teens can understand this film very well, and honestly they should be shown it.

[@jtfritchie]

I look forward to seeing this film. I just wanted to say that filmmakers and TV writers today don’t seem to know how to express ideas of horror, eros, or much else without showing it. I guess that I’d say to them that just because you can show that doesn’t necessarily make that the best way to invoke reactions in your audience. I hope that makes sense.

[@mael1515]

I am German and in my 40s. The weirdest thing happend while watching the zone of interest: vivid memories of my east German grandmothers house appeared. I could actually smell her house, I remembered the sound of her wooden staircase, the furniture and other details. This is how real this movie sounds. Thanx for this extraordinary essay!

[@diana.324]

Oh wow, that's how I imagined the German couple next to me had felt when watching the movie. For context, I'm from Romania and went to this movie and the moment I saw the woman and the man I knew they were German. Being next to them I wondered how much some of the characters reminded them of their relatives. I imagined that this film felt much more personal to them. I enjoyed it nonetheless. It was a fun coincidence being next to them. Like it richened my viewer experience having their presence so close. Hope that makes sense

[@mael1515]

@@diana.324 sounds like it made it even more real? Nice. 🙂

[@Zett76]

Same here. I'm Austrian and in my 40s, and my grandparents' house was very similar.

[@koenignero]

However the House where the Hess Family lived was NOT in Germany, it was in the Generalgouvernement, former Poland

[@mael1515]

@@koenignero yes, I know. Both areas are pretty close and today's northern Poland used to be German, so it is very similar. The landscape also.

[@cinerina]

I was so glad they won the Oscar for sound and still I am blown away by this work.

[@rsb8380]

I already left another comment about it but it really reminds me of Son of Saul, another masterpiece Holocaust film that uses sound to suggest things offscreen in order to tell a story. They’re both amazing films, I sort of see them as a companion piece to each other now.

[@hamsaini]

​@rsb8380 I experienced the same thought, Son of Saul put you right there too. On the other side of the wall.

[@FlyLikeDove]

I noticed even the dog had his own Zone of Interest... he just happily walked around and didn't bark at anything - not at screams, gunshots, random yelling, baby crying - he did whatever he wanted all day (with little to no consequences). But when the dogs were barking at prisoners over the wall, he went crazy.

[@filip6994]

Well, he whined at times cause no one’s giving him attention

[@curlwhurl8054]

That dog definitely wasn't happy. Just like the baby, he never once settled. You never see them laying down, relaxing, etc, just so on edge constantly.

[@FlyLikeDove]

@@curlwhurl8054 you never see any of the family relaxing much, based on the scenes they show. That's a perspective though, something to think about!

[@plukmens]

This film was an absolutely excruciating watch-and I mean that in the best way possible. More than once, I was almost feeling bored with the mundane life of the Höss family, only for the sounds to jerk me back into the terrifying reality of what was actually happening. Such an effective way to portray the "banality of evil"; an absolute masterpiece. I feel like Glazer's speech at the Oscars and the subsequent reactions to it only make the point of the film so much more poignant. We'll just ignore the very real atrocities around us if we don't want to care.

[@parkergarvin]

I also felt bored sometimes, thinking, “I’m done now. I get it. And now I have a new rage.” And I would think that I was meant to endure MORE of their mundane life next to fucking AUCHWITZ!!! Birthday parties, gardening, cooking…

[@TomFinsterMusic]

at 4:00 minutes the scene is already disturbing before the gun shot. The coat she tries on is the clothes of a prisoner - hinting at the wealthy life that some of them had before. That's why she also finds a ring in it and just puts it aside like it's not a bit deal. She knows its all "leftovers".

[@karencollins8645]

But most chilling to me is finding the lipstick in the pocket and trying it out. Totally oblivious to where it came from.

[@Dontincludeme]

Same with the slips that get dropped off at the beginning. The women in the house look through the pile to find one they like, and hint that they were collected from the camp, if I remember right

[@Mooray27]

It’s been a while since I’ve seen the film, but if I remember correctly the women refer to the items as coming from Canada. Canada was the name the Nazi gave to the warehouses full of stolen item taken from the new arrivals to the camp.

[@l.acosta4739]

@@karencollins8645 They weren't oblivious as to where it came from, is hinted mere seconds after the scene that they were picking the clothes from a selection of prisioners' personal objects and clothes ("she picked a dress from a jew woman half her size")

[@chickenfoot2423]

@@karencollins8645they all knew where it came from, the point of the scene is how callous they are about it. they dont care

[@Spearca]

That shot of the unseen train's arrival is amazing.

[@Nuxunumo]

Best shot from any movie in 2023 in my opinion

[@TheFriendlyFilmFan247]

For me the best shot of 2023 isn't the train one but the one where Hoss is standing outside at dusk and you can see flames rise out of the smokestack behind him and it's almost the only light on screen.

[@ivypatty]

Going from a late night giggly conversation about chocolate, "if you can get your hands on some", to that bright white vapour and sound design made me jump in my seat. legit haunting

[@davidmiller1354]

You here a little boy cry for mum or dad I think in the background. Most upsetting part of the movie. Its savage.

[@woolsheepthree]

without slavery you'd be stuck in africa​@@davidmiller1354

[@qrefrain3695]

This movie was one of the most terrifying movies I saw last year, not because of how horrible Nazi Germany was but because I saw myself and so many “good, regular” people in the Höss family. We all swore the Holocaust would never happen again but I could easily see a future where the whole world lives just like the Höss again. As you mentioned in the video, by having the audience experience the filtering out of the droning background noise, it makes us realize how easy it is start ignoring the suffering. It’s so much more effective than showing or telling us shocking images.

[@Keyw]

the concept of "good, regular" people is itself fascist. all people are people, period.

[@ericagermain5851]

It’s happening ironically in Palestine

[@kathylennerds750]

We‘re all constantly living like that unless you‘re someone who is actively taking action. Extermination and work camps exist in various places in the world and so does genocide.

[@faultboy]

​@@KeywBut not all have good intentions

[@zztopz7090]

Its happening already. The West has been groomed to tolerate and normalize atrocities. Genocide of Indians. Genocide of Native Americans. Slavery. Orphan slave trains. Chain gangs. Vietnam. War on terror. War on drugs. The same people criticizing Bush were supporting Obama. Those who were against war and censorship, are now all for it when it comes to Palestine. Its all so efficient, this good cop bad cop thing. But between the inconsistent outrage is total apathy.

[@diethermanicat]

Most student filmmakers should watch this since they prioritize cinematography more than the sound.

[@JS-ou3ot]

...and they prioritize glossy filmmaking just for the sake of it because "that's what pros do", instead of thinking of photography as a tool. Can you imagine this film or the original Texas Chainsaw Massacre being glossy? They would be totally pointless.

[@koenignero]

However the Sound in the Background is overdone over the full lenght of the movie and therefore theatrical and annoying.

[@JS-ou3ot]

@@koenignero Stylized, as every piece of art should be.

[@koenignero]

@@JS-ou3otOr it is intentionally annoying for a reason

[@JS-ou3ot]

@@koenignero Yes, indeed.

[@risk5riskmks93]

The woman trying on the coat was the most disturbing to me because it focused in on the experience of the one woman who was the original owner of the coat, and her happy, comfortable life. I always thought she must have worn the coat to the camps both for warmth and to preserve it. Then it was taken from her. When did she last use that lipstick? What happy place was she going? I imagined her still alive, but on the other side of the wall, her life totally changed while someone else was enjoying her tings. Horrifying. It made it personal.

[@christianealshut1123]

Yes, I also found that disconcerting because it was clear she was looking for signs of the previous owner.

[@RM-cj8uj]

I found it so disturbing that Hedwig used the lipstick. Like, this lipstick belonged to a woman who may already be dead, murdered by her own husband's underlings, and Hedwig's just like 'oh what a pretty colour'. Her detachment from where that coat and lipstick came from was breathtaking.

[@Csimon2429]

@risk5riskmks93 you think she was good in this you should watch her in Anatomy of a Fall kzbin.info/www/bejne/fIa7kqqhfZKChK8 Sandra Hüller...great German Actress

[@holyvipers9814]

@@RM-cj8uj I also like to think that it's another reason she tries the lipstick on her hand first, to remove the "essence" of the woman that it used to belong to. The red reflecting the blood on her hands by remaining in purposeful ignorance,

[@laurelgardner]

​@@holyvipers9814 Except there is no ignorance here. Only a lack of caring.

[@theapocalyvid]

One aspect of the film which really resounded to me was how it ends up showing the banality of the Höss family's life. It is horrific in its depiction of regimented banality and fascist domesticity. There is fundamentally nothing of important happening within this family's life. The mother Hedwig cares for the household along with her help, the children are as playful and disciplined as their age, and the father Rudolf maintains respect in the home that he seeks in his workplace. However, with the terrifying reality of mass violence next door, I myself started to read more deeply into the actions and mindsets of these otherwise typical people as part of their oppressive national identity. Hedwig, exacerbated by her husband's transfer away, threatens her maid with being turned into ashes by her husband and spread among the countryside. Their teenage son Claus, dressed in a stormtrooper cosplay, cruelly locks his younger brother in their greenhouse as smoke rises above his head. While his kin live their lives downstairs, Rudolf uses the home office to discuss incineration chamber designs of the complex he oversees. With the historic suffering occurring literally within earshot of this family, the actions of the Hösses are simultaneously important and unimportant. The terror in the camps dwarfs any actions Rudolf takes in his domestic life, yet his professional despotism doesn't disappear when the dinner bell chimes. The atrocities he commits are unconscionable, yet in the Nazi state, the unconscionable can find a home.

[@jvjjjvvv9157]

You make interesting points regarding specific behaviors within the family that might go unnoticed by audiences, and I like how those relate to the overall context, but I personally think that the movie itself was a bit too blatant and obvious and a bit overrated. It's like after two minutes I knew exactly what the point was and, while sometimes interesting and sometimes chilling, the rest of the film did little but incessantly reiterate the same idea. I don't know, maybe I expected something with more room for interpretation, something of a more mysterious and evocative nature, something with a little more substance, maybe more along the lines of The White Ribbon, where the actual holocaust is only hinted at metaphorically and the movie has its own themes that can be explored independently.

[@hadasabriciu3462]

yes, kind of the same as Israelis party a few km away from Gaza, kinda how they block aid trucks so Gaza starves, kinda how Israelis forcibly evict people from their own homes so they can then take over said homes, kinda like IDF kills thousands of children and then record some stupid tik tok video dancing and celebrating. What I am trying to say here is that anybody can comit those crimes - all you need is a bit of organizing. A bit of legal infrastructure to base it on, a bit of assistance from the armed forces, a bit of dehumanizing, a bit of "othering" - and what we now see as a nightmare becomes the normal reality, becomes mundane and ordinary, becomes "how things should be".

[@antonrnik]

​@jvjjjvvv9157 after two minutes the screen was still black. and after that ended, the family wasn't even home.

[@handlesshouldntdefaulttonames]

@@jvjjjvvv9157 You expected mystery and evocativeness out of what is essentially a documentary? Joke is on you.

[@williampan29]

​@@jvjjjvvv9157​the lack of mystery and provokery is the point. It's how like our daily lives usually have none of these things. The absurdity is precisely that unimaginable atrocities were conducted while they lived their mysteriousless lives.

[@theboringkaren]

I'm so glad you covered this film! I remember I kept thinking, "Why don't they ever react to the smell?" because the film, as you said, caused me to think about the historical elements. And then Hedwig's mother arrives and acts as the outside observer, reacting to everything the Hoss family tunes out. Also, seeing the smoke from the train punched me in the gut.

[@terrib627]

Nose-blindness is a thing.

[@DizzyBusy]

I hate to say it, but it was perhaps like smelling the worst barbecue in the world, but on a daily basis. Notice how closer to the end of the war, the smoke became more frequent? Effing scary, uncomfortable, creepy, evil, all of those things at once.

[@ericagermain5851]

Like how vegans feel seeing humanity dine on death

[@Duskets]

I was curious why the scenes featuring the young Polish girl smuggling food to the detainees was shot with a night vision filter, but after ruminating on it a bit, I think Glazer is trying to depict a light of benevolence shining in the darkness of this atrocity. That her actions, even when done covertly and under the cover of darkness, was so commendable and heroic that it broke from the fly on the wall perspective of the film and deserved to be celebrated.

[@seanwebb605]

Was it a young Polish girl?

[@mattmoy24]

I think it contrasts the discomfort of someone trying to work against horror vs the comfort that comes with the status quo. The Höss family lives well off the destruction of life, the Polish girl is a criminal hiding from the law.

[@alwayswatching2295]

“Where in our lives are we like the hoss family?” Well said I think what made this movie so terrifying was how normal this family seemed. They were so consumed with their own lives and making their dreams come true by having this perfect house and all these beautiful things. Everything outside of them was background noise.

[@stygiantwst]

And when and how do we avoid being utterly consumed the chaos around us? Is there a way to be empathetic and avoid compassion fatigue?

[@mayankjha1145]

What an amazing year for Sandra Hüller, starrer in two of the best films of this year.

[@swampert564]

I saw both of them within a week or two of each other. It took me an embarrassing amount of the run time of Anatomy of a Fall to realize that she was the same woman. Back to back masterful (and incredibly distinct) performances.

[@DirtyDawg]

She sucks and has a small acting range

[@Rebe8d89AH]

I've just realised from reading this comment. Crazyy.

[@hangedups2608]

SHES AMAZING

[@QuestionsIAskMyself]

​@@swampert564SAME 😅😅

[@pageturner242]

the way they “harvested” sounds is kind of terrifying but so effective

[@mikek7029]

Terrifying? Little melodramatic don't ya think

[@another7674]

@@mikek7029 he literally describes how they went to the paris riots and recorded real rioting in france or did i mishear

[@ashleyupshall7641]

Great actor.

[@kraeutrpolizei]

As a German speaker i just realised that Film 2 is a slightly different experience than the film with subtitles. A lot of the camp talk wasn’t intelligible for me (might be my bad hearing though). So the message was a lot more visceral than what you get through subtitles. Like , people getting drowned only happens through the consequence of them fining bones in the river. With the subs it’s a lot clearer who is responsible. You mentioned that as a viewer the background noise gets drowned out, I had the same experience. This would not be possible if every shot had a subtitle, like BANG. I feel like in this films the subs change the viewing experience a lot more than with other films. Of course i have to watch the film with subs again, maybe it’s not as dramatic as I imagine

[@bigmilk13_]

I couldn't help but feel, as I watched with subtitles, that I was receiving more information than I was supposed to. Subtitles can be excellent if you have a hard time telling what people are saying, or if your environment is a bit noisy, but I prefer to have them off if I can. However, I cannot speak German, so subtitles were required, and suddenly a lot of subtle information became blatant. I didn't need to know exactly what the people in Movie 2 were saying, that's not the point, and it might have lessened my viewing experience. That being said, my brain still tuned out the background noise by the end of the movie, and the sounds from Movie 2 are still absolutely haunting. I just get the same feeling I get whenever I watch a movie in a language I don't speak. Is this translation really accurate? How different would my experience be if I could speak the language? I think with this movie in particular, the issues could be solved by have distinctly separate "subtitles" and "closed-captions". The subtitles would not include any indications of sound effects, only dialogue, and would be for people who don't speak the language, people who like reading the lines, etc. The closed-captions could include all of the sound effect cues like BANG for people who are hard of hearing or in a noisy environment. We only ever get full closed-captions, so you have to see sound effect cues if you don't speak the language.

[@terrib627]

The bones(and ash) in the river were remnants of prisoners burned in the crematoria, not just bones from one or two prisoners who were drowned.

[@squirlmy]

​@@bigmilk13_ are you talking about the theatrical release? It's fairly common for DVD, Blu-rays and sometimes streaming to have separate subtitles and Closed Captioning (CC) I almost always watch films with closed cationing because family members have hearing difficulty, and in anime, of course, subtitles in translation verses dubbing is a constant issue. In anime there's a lot of viewer who generally prefer subing over English dubbing, but the quality varies tremendously from anime to anime, the bigger "classic" ones usually getting much better treatment.

[@clairejohnson7348]

@@bigmilk13_ Subtitles weren't working when I watched it. Tried to fix it a few times but then settled down to watch without them. I think it was a more immersive experience that way - I knew enough context already so wasn't baffled by what was happening, and was able to sink into the ambience. A truly brilliant film.

[@bilikfinke9197]

Agreed. It's actually insane that they considered the sound design as meticulously as they did and then... didn't thoughtfully consider how the experience would play with subtitling. Like, what?

[@geoffrygo]

This is an excellent analysis. Thank you. The most impressive thing about this movie, to me, was how seamlessly they managed to associate nearly every texture and color back to the lives lost. The water, the fabric, the cleanliness of their space, the very soil that feeds their garden... are all made up (or by) the millions of people they're not acknowledging. The jaw in the river made it clear, and then nearly every close up shot for the rest of the film could be explained by acknowledging what was happening.

[@MrSegrist]

Thomas, as always, you have crafted a remarkable analysis of the film that has deepened my appreciation for the creators' craft and the deeper significance of why they did things the way they did. When I saw this film at the Mary-Riepma Ross Theater, the moment that startled me the most was near the end when Rudolf is attending the high society dinner gallery and we see all these people enjoying their wealth, luxury, and privilege. As the camera moved about the palatial estate, this raging, impulsive thought bubbled up: "Look at all these sick and hideous people who are profiting from this terrible tragedy. They should suffer and die like the people they don't care about." When Rudolf calls home and admits that he himself has been contemplating the logistics of how he would gas them all, if only the ceilings weren't so high, I was struck by the parallelism of my violent impulses with such a despicable character on screen. It gave me pause as I considered how easy and terrifyingly quick it is for a person to dehumanize others and wish them harm. As I left the theater, I was contemplating the way this film indicted me in how humans' thinking contributes to a banal and violent complicity. It is terrifying to consider how close and similar one may be to a villain/bad person, which is perhaps why it is incumbent upon us to recognize that evil and--once identified--renew our own struggle against such impulses and to move towards more just ways of existence. This film is a masterpiece, and it ought to be seen by more people.

[@carlix8035]

Never seen/heard a film like this before. My ears have always been the tools to my dominant sense so it really hit me hard. I’d actually go as far as saying it was a profound experience. The most haunting scene for me was when the young boy peaks through the window and vows he shouldn’t do that again. A true representation of morbid curiosity. Something everyone has. Very powerful stuff.

[@ragingmenace1984]

This movie is a masterpiece. I appreciate that it expects you to know enough of the story to fill in the blanks and when you do…its absolutely horrifying

[@kieran465]

I got uncomfortable chills the second you played some of that black screen footage from the film. What an arresting film.

[@FlyLikeDove]

Did I hear it right that the lady's mom questioned if a lady she used to clean houses for was possibly in the camp? Like this whole family was lower class to begin with, dad lucked out and got a "good" job that gave them status, and now they see themselves as above everyone in this war...?

[@Hgcyvhv]

Typically how family generational dynasties are built, is it not? I know at least in the US, most were built on crime, slavery or corporate backstabbing.

[@madelynsclosets]

As well as the sound there are so many visual images in the film that represent the depth and horror of the subject matter. It all brings it into a true cinematic scope of genius. The black horse, the family dog and the little dog petted at the end...all black animals. The red tone of the flower interjected in the bedroom scene and the party at the end. The mother dressed in black at the family gathering...her awareness clothed in morning. The more you watch the film the more is exposed and astonishing to view. Thank you for your own in depth explanations of this Masterpiece! Madelyn

[@karenkalweit6018]

Thanks for your post. I am visually impaired and completely colorblind. However, I do understand the impact and symbolism and emotions that colors evoke. Reading this will allow me to catch those visuals and add to my understanding of this story.

[@Raymando]

Arguably the strongest film from one of the strongest years in cinema yet. This is the kind of film I always look forward to, something that pushes what I can expect from the medium and keep reminding me why I love to watch movies.

[@e.mjohnson9675]

Also at some point I realized I was watching one movie with my eyes and watching a totally different movie with my ears and mind.

[@VoltaDoMar]

Recognizing Johnnie Burn for his work on this film was a perhaps surprisingly excellent decision by the Academy

[@spicydaddy2526]

getting the actual artists to chat is such great work. I love these videos, cheers to you and yours.

[@mholliday3476]

It’s the most horrific film I saw this year. Horror included. It’s a brilliant film and almost a masterclass in nuance. Also loved the “x ray” scenes. The sound design is also on another level.

[@yuhanwu5267]

I love to compare this one with my favorite ww2 film “Come and See”. They are both amazing, like I love them both, but the sounds in the zone of interest, it gives me a chill as I saw the house in “Come and See” burned down. Just amusing.

[@ina7107]

I watched about 5 minutes of this video before realizing this film is on Max, I’m definitely going to watch it and come back to this video essay. I respect the director, Jonathan Glazer, so much for his speech. He refused to let willfully ignorant people go on with their cognitive dissonance when it comes to the subject of the film and what is currently happening to innocent lives..

[@michaelhubbard5013]

I knew the gist of what to expect when I finally watched this on MAX, however that 3 minute screen of darkness with the droning soundscape, definitely let you know you were about to experience something different.

[@mito88]

IMAX?

[@GioTheVax]

It is nothing short of remarkable that this film came out when it did. With social media, it feels like we all now get a glimpse every day at horrific crimes against humanity, and suddenly you find that a lot more people in your life would rather be like the Höss family.

[@solangedere7685]

Hoss family of 2024 are the ones ignoring and supporting the crimes of ISRAEL

[@rebeccawest3162]

i think you completely nailed the main theme of “disconnect.” after i watched the film i was left with such a feeling of shame and guilt for the things i find valuable in my life when such cruelty exists around me. i definitely think that was the main point of this piece. thank you for this video!

[@theloz3r]

The way you described how this film was shot and how really the actors are still doing one take but through different cameras set up in different areas kinda reminded me of how playing Resident Evil was like. And just like in that game, the camera is set up where you can never really tell what you might see and you almost sometimes imagine something much worse unless you directly see it. That might seem like a very stupid comparison, but that’s just what first came to mind for me.

[@camerondickerson8256]

bro you’re the best film youtuber out there hands down. every video i watch over yours is so thought provoking and so elegantly executed i just love it. keep up the incredible work.

[@pilgrimsprogress3237]

When you get into sound and ambience, movies are an unparalleled escape.

[@endogladry]

I agree, I'm obsessed with sound. However, I personally feel that video games are a strong contender for cinematic escape as well. I can think of many incredible experiences I've had through single player games that are significantly driven by excellent sound design. It's a huge component in creating a rich, thematically cohesive atmosphere which the best games have.

[@koenignero]

However the Sound in the Background is overdone over the full lenght of the movie and therefore theatrical and annoying.

[@JaySteiny]

​@@koenigneroI love how you keep copy and pasting this comment without noticing the blatantly obvious grammatical error.

[@koenignero]

@@JaySteinyNobody cares about your issues

[@emma-xt5iy]

I went into this movie without watching a single trailer and only knowing what the movie was called. I am of course biased but I think that is how this movie was meant to be watched.

[@9709Nick]

it doesn't let you see because it's not in your zone of interest.

[@misriya4147]

Reading the comments, it seems that most people are proving the point of the movie. Very few are able to really reflect on the ghastly horrors happening in the Congo and Gaza and Yemen.... and which happened in Iraq and Syria. No one wants to be galvanised into action.

[@fr4yedtail]

exactly!

[@zgSH4DOW]

You don't get it, maaaaan

[@howareyoualiveifyoudonteatbeef]

There's not much most people can do about conflicts happening 1000 miles away. I don't blame someone working in a Tesco store in Glasgow for not 'doing something' about Gaza. Carrying the world on your shoulders is not good for you.

[@anarchisttutor7423]

You might be interested in Scott Horton's work.

[@xyaeiounn]

I'm 54, the activism of my youth has been co-opted and turned into distraction. Discussions of right and wrong burble on in the grim shadow cast by power, while power has been excised from the minds of the people who have it most. Endless details about atrocity, without the slightest change to the status quo that commits it.

[@odpieces]

Zone of Interest was such an arresting, overwhelming experience for me. Just an incredible vision carried out to a perfect extent. I saw it in cinemas twice and although it feels weird to say this about a haulocaust movie, it's one of my favourite films of all time. This was a really exceptional analysis and as someone who found the sound utterly enthralling I'm always keen to hear more from the sound wizard Johnnie so thanks for this!

[@iannawaz]

An excellent analysis Thomas. Every second I thought about the people in Gaza suffering genocide as we carry on with our lives with their suffering an ambient "noise" in the background.

[@backabeyond]

Love your content sir. For most of my 47 yrs I have loved movies of every kind, but when I came across you and a few others similar to you, it made me love them even more. You have guided me towards movies I might’ve never seen, you’ve spurned me to watch movies I’ve put off watching, and when I watch a movie I check after to see if you or the others have done a video on it. And you never disappoint. You always give me a much deeper understanding and appreciation for movies. One thing about this movie that keeps replaying in my head is a scene where an order is given to execute two prisoners because they were fighting over an apple. The “silhouette girl” was hiding apples for them. It’s just tragic in so many ways. Her kindness got two men killed, but kept others alive and the fact that two men had to fight much less die over an apple is a good representation of the absurd horror of such a situation. And it was captured in that one moment perfectly. I watched this with headphones for the full impact. I didn’t really become desensitized to it so much as I wanted a break from it. The constant barrage of sound was exhausting. Maybe some of us become desensitized to it like the family. But I found myself relating to the wife’s mother and how she was declining in her general well being. She was being exhausted by the constant stimulation. Another aspect of the sound I couldn’t escape was the constant crying of the baby and the barking dog that was never settled. It made me think that these characters also shared in the moms exhaustion. In some way I think it was an echo of the Jews inside. That such evil destroys everything it touches and nobody on either side of the wall is immune. The good people will be helpless and live in fear, and the mediocre will be victims of their own worst selfish impulses. Anyway.

[@antoinepetrov]

I think you forgot to mention that the camp is seen and the chimneys with smoke coming out of them was an important part of the film. It is where Film 1 and Film 2 meet.

[@ryanwalker5723]

Reminded me of a tour of Dachau when I went to Germany. There was (and still is) a functioning suburban neighborhood DIRECTLY behind the camp with a wall separating a backyard from the camp. Wondered how folks lived there could honestly say they didn't know. Even today as it's now something of a historical monument, but IDK if I'd want to live so close. Dark stuff. The river scene, too OMG...

[@adrienneclarke3953]

When i went in the 80's it qas a beautiful summers day. Very easy to take in the gardens and village and general life. There were lots of families, some qith picnics, so i can see how easy it would be to be detached.

[@mkavonius]

I visited Auschwitz as a teenager, we were on a holiday across Europe and I’ve always been interested in the holocaust and asked if we could visit the museum. We spent several hours there. One of the most memorable things for me was how ”beautiful” the camp looked on a summer day. The red bricked barracks, trees with birds singing.. it made me wonder how something that horrifying could have happened in such a ”beautiful” place. What could be happening right at this moment in other places just as ”beautiful”? Of course Auschwitz was a horrible place and nothing there was beautiful at the time of the prisoners. I saw the horrible attrocities, studied many things in the museum for hours and wept a little. By ”beautiful” I mean something I cannot fully explain. It’s hard to describe, but even with barb wires etc. it reminded me of other places made with same materials that are by itself beautiful. When something so horrifying has happened somewhere, shouldn’t it scream of horrors and terrify you just by being there? When we are at our ”beautiful” ordinary places, what are we ignoring or not noticing? What has become our background noises? This movie made me think about my visit and how I felt. I’ve seen dozens of documentaries, read books and articles, seen interviews by survivors and read Höss’s autobiography twice (as Anne Frank’s diary), so I’ve known about the camp’s and Höss’s lives. This movie was a really interesting and important story, a great movie.

[@ll3328]

Not sure if it wasat this one but when soldiers came when the war was one it is true that they asked the town near howmtheyncouldmnot know after witnessing for themselves the horror of what was going on. Before leaving the nazi tried to kill all the prisoners so many dead and the prisoners were locked in the camps. The soldiers made the towns people come and dif the Ggraves to bury the dead and feed the ones still there.

[@rrenatabp]

this film, talking about a genocide that is happening right in the face of the characters but being willfully ignored, coming out when it did was "good" timing. With another genocide being so strongly ignored, this film can be a way to help us understand why that happens

[@theswagman1263]

Surprised I've seen so few comments about this. It really is being wilfully ignored, even a year in and worse than ever. Terrifying

[@alexbarnet6982]

totally deserved the sound design Oscar

[@1haunt]

One of the bigger realizations for me about the film's genius was when I noticed that even during watching it I started to tune out the horrifying sounds on the background, had a smile on my face when that phenomenon was brought up at the end of the video. This is easily the most impactful film from recent years and a modern masterpiece.

[@wheeledjustice7381]

One of my favorite decisions is one of the more obvious ones. The baby is always crying and there's never really an acknowledgment as to why. Obviously there are loud noises going on outside but it's also as if the youngest knows instinctively that something is wrong.

[@guillermoemiliomariaibanez339]

That's the way it goes, in this factual system of things; the horror of the absolute indifference of anyone to anyother is not a exclusivity of colective events, no it happens all the time everywhere on earth...

[@yasminTheMachine]

this video is exactly what i needed after watching this film. i felt cracked open and like i needed to process it with others in some way, however possible. thank you for providing that space in these comments. 🖤

[@danielwareking]

Very possible that this is my favorite film of the last 10 years. Was just floored by it.

[@Alastherra]

I went to see this with the exact purpose to *hear* the sound, and knowing a lot about Auschwitz day-to-day running made me appreciate this movie a lot. To me it felt like the director wanted you to be pulled in, as another person just observing the day to day life of the family passively. To be included in the household, to be standing in the garden and seeing the furnaces running in the background, watch the train pulling in to Birkenau just across the field. It does make your brain filter out the background after a while if you don't force yourself to actually keep your ears primed for the sounds behind the walls. The sound design in this movie is brutal, there is no denying that, but it is an exceptional choice to make. The simple fact that you don't ever see anything from inside camps I and II makes your brain work overtime to imagine it. And as I have always said when concerning horror movies - if you never show the monster, it makes for a much better movie because whatever you imagine in its place is way worse than anything the director and/or artist decide to show you.

[@mattdragon333]

This is something porco rosso Does!!! Oddly enough both movies do have a few similar themes

[@gabhoule]

Hey! So true!

[@Tiparium_NMF]

Gonna need to explain that. I love Porco Rosso, but I'm not sure I see the connection.

[@mattdragon333]

@@Tiparium_NMF there's as well a second movie on the background, dogfighting scenes and the war developing on the radio and the news porco's friend brings to him when he tries to recruit him It's a background plot and many implied character's stories that we are not shown yet are very important for the movie and it's anti war, anti fascist message

[@Airsaber]

"I'd rather be a pig than a fascist" is as relevant today as it was in the times depicted in the movie, too...

[@reservoirdude92]

​@@Airsaberyup, a lot of fascists in our government, that's for sure.

[@Nuclearbones]

That scene where the guard is sitting outside the crematorium really broke me. I never had had a movie experience that took me from total dread to an intense vengeful hatred and sadness in such a short amount of time. And then hearing the little kid cry out for their dad. I spent the entire next scene just crying my eyes out.

[@k2sworld]

I described this movie's horror to those who didn't see it or even know what it was about as, "the banality of evil". The entire film shows the common, otherwise uninteresting day to day routine of people living right next to some of the most heinous atrocities ever perpetrated on human beings, and they don't even react to it. The constant roar of the ovens is ever present but has just become white noise to them. It's very disturbing without ever being overtly disturbing. Under The Skin is also very disturbing in somewhat the same way.

[@AugustoValentini]

For me, this is one of the best movies of all time exactly because of the sound. In my review I wrote the same thing you said in this video: it is more haunting than most explicit Holocaust movies because of the banality of the protagonists' lives and their lack of reaction to what we all know is happening on the other side of the wall. It's a horror film seen from the perspective of the monster and entirely filmed in his free time. Also, the last scene, alternating the stairs with the modern day museum being cleaned was a touch of genius. It shows the scale of the massacre these people helped execute while still keeping the documentary and banal tone. The more I think and learn about this film, the more I admire everyone involved in its making.

[@kellywoessner8392]

I was hoping you'd make a video on this film. It's so incredible. I saw it twice in the theater just to get the full experience of the sound. Your analysis, as always, is spot-on. These videos are so much more interesting and inspiring than the 4 years I spent in film school. 👏🎬

[@xcarnage3936]

We as people know already how horrible the Holocaust was. We've seen the depiction of violence and horrors that go on whenever a WW2 movie is released. I like how this time they believed us to be smart enough to know what kind of movie this was, and instead of showing us the horrors, we as the audience already have an idea of what's going on based on what we hear, the setting, how the family in the film views it as normal to do these horrible acts. We just leave it to our own mental image to understand what's going on.

[@J3ff_K1ng]

Idk what the fuck happened but when you started talk about the off space my phone bugged out and more than half of the screen (right side) got dark, but since you were talking about the space where characters look and some moments looked good like the jaws part where the characters weren't cut just jailed in a smaller space making me imagining (since I didn't remember) what was in the right side of the scene Fucking amazing bug really

[@kaifaj]

I described the camera as like security cameras. The sound design was amazing. I cried at the edn of this movie.

[@dubitataugustinus]

Thank you for not playing *the sounds* here, *those* sounds. I remember them clearly and they haunt me. This film is an absolute masterpiece. I wish I was ready to watch it again soon, but I think I'm not ready yet. What an experience.

[@nickadams99]

ONE MILLION SUBSCRIBERS, nobody deserves it more than you Thomas, best video essays on KZbin

[@alexbade]

04:33 - take a trip to Israel next to the Gaza Wall and you will see exactly HOW !

[@iamwesleyfrazier]

Facts!!!! I have zero sympathy after doing research….hell I almost fell asleep on Schindler List….it’s sad but so hypocritical

[@raulruizdevelasco6215]

I would argue Israel is actually worse, because they don’t just ignore the sounds of bombs, they celebrate them. And the director of this movie even acknowledged during his Oscar speech that what is happening in Gaza is similar.

[@raulruizdevelasco6215]

@@iamwesleyfrazierThe difference between this movie and Schindler’s List is that Jonathan Glazer recognizes the parallels between Israel and Nazi Germany while Spielberg is a liberal Zionist. So basically, you have one man that actually recognizes fascism and another who is just against the fact that it happened to his people.

[@___LC___]

This was so well done I identified the topic and location despite the fact that I’ve been in a media vacuum for years and couldn’t have known from any exposure to the world. Very been isolated and without streaming or cable long before covid, due to an illness that resulting in disability and the poverty caused by illness. I heavily studied (special interest iykyk) this period beginning when I was a child (likely too early, it was triggered by a centerfold of an open mass grave in a large book at my grandmother’s in the early 80s) on through university and until I was working too much for any interest other than work an buying a home before 30…then holding the home after getting worse and worse physically. I now need to find the film and make finding it to watch it my “luxury” item for the following year….this past year it was seeing live music once….once.

[@meiji_apollo]

My question is how did you get Mr. Burn agree to an interview? Sounds big deal to me, and I loved it! 😊

[@hangedups2608]

BECAUSE HE WANTS TO SHARE CRAFT AND NOT GATEKEEPER I’M GUESSING

[@talsimon8619]

This movie is a by all means a brilliant cinematic star. I was mind-blown when I walked out the theater. I remember thinking there must have been something wrong with the projector on the first 3 minutes of blackscreen, and just a couple scenes in understanding exactly why it was necessary. I appreciate your reading of this film and its meaning, especially the connection between the film 1 vs. film 2 and the decompartmentalizing effect. Beautiful work of sowing form and content together. I always think this movie is essentially about how to tell without telling, and how to show without showing.

[@PotentialEnder]

Just watched this movie. I feel like we could get a new version of this film following a family in Israel currently.

[@solangedere7685]

Exactly;

[@HipiO7]

Great movie. Not sure when I'd watch it again, but it was definitely an experience unlike anything else I've seen. I was blown away by the sound design, and hoped it would win best sound at the Oscars, which is deservedly did.

[@TheBadBuffalo]

Yes!! Thank you for this. For being a movie with very different subject matter, I got a really similar feeling from watching Todd Haynes’ “Safe.”

[@flochfitness]

Another excellent breakdown. I’m going to be doing a private screening of my first feature length documentary next week and I’m already thinking of two or three things that I can add the sound design to create more step and tension throughout the story. Appreciate all the effort in making this Content!

[@noussaibam]

Well, after watching this movie. A movie about turning a blind eye to mass suffering; seeing it as necessary evil; continuing to live a 'normal' life while humans are literally being incinerated just few meters away. Jonathan Glazer's Oscar's speech is exactly what you would expect.

[@depressedpebbles]

This movie disturbed me in a way I've never experienced before. It was just so terrifying without anything scary ever happening on screen. I have no idea how the filmmakers pulled this off. The sound design is absolutely genius. This movie is somehow one of the most unsettling movies I've ever seen. The soundtrack, especially with those booming wobbling sounds, was so shocking and terrifying. The invertes black and white scenes made it all the more disturbing. It was unexpected. There were so many scenes where I only realized what was actually going on when the scene was over. Like the gardener pouring some powdery substance over the plants. I only realized several seconds later that that substance was human ashes. This movie is so detailed and particular. I truly believe it is a perfect film in its execution.

[@juancarlosgallegos3902]

Fantastic video Thomas you are killing it!!

[@YeahNah100]

I appreciate your serious and respectful candor in the discussion. This film is important.

[@ChancellorMarko]

I think the point the film is trying to make in the end is that we all go through our lives ignoring the apparent horrors around us. It is obviously abhorrent how the Hess family continue to live seemingly normal lives with such pain and suffering on their doorstep. But it no doubt affects them. It is a small world and we do not live so far away from such abject violence and genocide. How does that knowledge affect us in our everyday lives?

[@JonathanSmith-kz2jo]

The difference is that I’m not responsible for any of the bloodshed going on right now, and I’m sure that’s the case for you too. This movie shows us that we could become like these horrible people, but most of our lives are not comparable to that of the Höss family.

[@ChancellorMarko]

@@JonathanSmith-kz2jo idk we all see some sort of injustice... whether it's the homeless person we walk by on the street or the products we use without questioning where they come from. Just how much would we be willing to tolerate to keep our comfortable lifestyle?

[@JonathanSmith-kz2jo]

@@ChancellorMarko again, I’m not even indirectly complicit in the homeless man’s homelessness. The government certainly is, but I’m not. And I oppose the government’s policies because they affect me.

[@ChancellorMarko]

@@JonathanSmith-kz2jo maybe Rudolf Hess would argue the same. He's only doing what the government mandated with the support of the majority and he's not responsible for people being of a certain ethnicity.

[@JonathanSmith-kz2jo]

@@ChancellorMarko I’m not telling people when how and where to kill other people. Your comparison is asinine.

[@GaryRayBetz]

A brilliant analysis! Thank-you! "The Zone of Interest" is an absolute work of art!

[@jalbor]

Zone of Interest was devastating. I had to stop a couple times as the unseen horror, those awful sounds on time of this disinterest was just devastating. A fantastic movie I have no interest in ever watching again.

[@aloc23]

sound design is on another level in this movie.. putting emphasis on the sounds by starting the movie with music on a black screen was a brilliant choice.. you could hear the people in the cinema go quiet and start to listen when the blackscreen just remained for a while

[@RemisRange]

The most unnerving thing about this film is how content the characters were with continuing to live the way they were---and how people today who commit great atrocities continue to act with this callous disregard

[@darkgate33]

when you watch this movie with a full sound system in your home wherever. the buzzing of a moving tank won't stop throughout the film. You'll literally feel the bass around the room but in a subtle way it's incredible.

[@SaberRexZealot]

Feels weird to say it but this is the best Holocaust movie since Schindler’s List. Such a fresh take on that concept that leaves you anxious and sick to your stomach. So impressive that they achieved so much without really showing anything; I think everyone should see it.

[@Fido-vm9zi]

Schindler's List is a great movie.

[@Jillian-Jill]

*_History repeats itself, the suffering never, ever ends._* Today we have the men, women and children in Gaza living through unimaginable suffering... Why are humans so cruel? ✌️

[@ideatorx]

THOMAS YOU'RE THE GOAT.

[@kaypowell7755]

Amateur film critic and Honors university professor. Love your content and subscribe to your channel. Binged four episodes this week. Just saying “thank you.”

[@carolfrome7801]

This is an outstanding discussion. Thank you.

[@pommie5093]

I just rented the movie because of this video. I was blown away, what a unique and powerful way to provide a window into day to day life for people living right next door (and benefiting from) a concentration camp. The sound and choreography are genius. I applaud this film and thank you for bringing it to my attention. A gut punch of a movie-as great films with social commentary usually are, masterfully done.

[@sk8mafia214]

I like Johnnie sound design on Under The Skin as well and Nope

[@lira992]

15:56 The reason why the Zone of Interest felt more haunting than actual movies of Auschiwtz terror is that the sensationalism used in Auschwitz films is quite jarring, but it doesn't make the effort to distinguish itself from fictional war movies. You have to force yourself to stop to think "Yes this is crazy, But what's crazier is that this actually happened in real life! Now I feel so bad." The Zone of Interest's documentary style story telling and refutal of sensationalism does not require you to stop yourself and remind yourself that this is not fictional. Great story telling, so powerful and i can imagine extremely personal to the creators.

[@DizzyBusy]

I watched it in Germany as an immigrant. My theatre audience was mostly Germans partaking in this collective guilt, but even for me, it was so uncomfortable that my brain kept on asking me to laugh already, break the tension, as if this was the worst kind of black comedy. You're acutely aware of where those clothes that the wife tried on came from, that the child was playing with gold teeth in bed, the older child pretended to lock his younger brother in a gas chamber (actually their greenhouse), when he got annoyed. All of these played out on screen, very visibly, yet unacknowledged. The gardener fertilised those flowers with ash, ffs. Of course they would always have ash around. I wish non-Germans and non-German-adjacent audiences can watch this movie with lots and lots of footnotes. I read that some people found this movie boring. It was anything but boring. It was a horror movie and a masterclass in tension.

[@lurelurche]

It really made me feel what it intended, rationally I couldn't understand. It's a shame some people trash movies because they can't understand what's going on artistically. This videos helps us appreciate cinema, thank you!

[@mostlynotworking4112]

Waiting for a BGD convo. Ty for your work

[@Nathanatos22]

“BGD”?

[@mostlynotworking4112]

@@Nathanatos22 Brendan graham dempsey. Metamodern

[@JoeSmith-cy9wj]

Context is everything. This documentary approach highlights the wealth and quality, care and civility anyone would aspire to, only to fully establish the pathos and poignancy of a time that otherwise resembles today. How easy it would be for all this to happen again.

[@buildersandinteriorexperts]

Maybe in the future we will see a similar movie set in Occupied Palestine.

[@Rosemary-iz5vc]

Occupied by Hamas.

[@raulruizdevelasco6215]

“Nice people made the best Nazis. My mom grew up next to them. They got along, refused to make waves, looked the other way when things got ugly and focused on happier things than “politics.” They were lovely people who turned their heads as their neighbors were dragged away. You know who weren’t nice people? Resisters.” - Naomi Shulman

[@justwatching1980]

The Zone of Interest is about current times.

[@pahko_]

17:59 "I'm not sure, but I certainly value art that tries" I think this line really succinctly captures my thoughts on a lot of meaningful art that speaks directly to powerful issues. Does it matter as far as actually affecting change? Hard to say. A common critique is that these things don't actually do anything material where they claim to. But that the same time, they do their part as pieces of art. They try to communicate ideas. And maybe immediately, or maybe over time, or maybe never, they fulfill that job.

[@swampert564]

I hated watching this movie, also I thought it was one of the absolute best movies of last year ( only behind Past Lives and possibly Godzilla Minus One and Spider-Verse 2) It's masterful. I hope to never see it again and I doubt I'll ever forget it.

[@billyflynn1619]

kinda insulting to put it behind spiderman and godzilla lmao

[@swampert564]

Why? They are two of the most acclaimed movies of last year. Have you not seen them? Are you the kind of person that sees animation and assumes second-class filmmaking? If so that says more about you than the quality of the films in question. Minus One was excellent and has justifiably been raking in accolades, it has a ton to say about very real and very human problems.

[@susannedeheer7409]

The second time I got to watch the film the scene you show at 8:09 stood out to me. It was te most clear moment for me that the story outside and the story inside must not intervene with eachother. I noticed that the man's voice he heard outside was his father's. Ofcourse him hearing someone being murdered over an apple is horrible enough. But seeing and hearing your father do this adds an extra layer for me the second time around. What sound design can't do...