Thorin's Thoughts - The Cheating Witch-hunt (CS:GO)

[@Nuurix]

Legendary video

[@randomfaca]

+Dancinglings Yeah, I wish there would be something of this scale nowadays just to get Thooorin to go in this hard :>

[@Bozothcow]

Well, do you really want something bad to happen? No news is good news!

[@randomfaca]

Bozocow Well we just got it :) I was joking by the way, I love the game as well.

[@Bozothcow]

Haha, you're right. I REALLY don't like this new update, but it's still an awesome game.

[@haoncs]

+Dancinglings "And fuck all the french they're all cheating bastards" Best part of the video No hate towards french people though

[@HeyImBrim]

I like Thorin, but cocaine is a HELLUV a drug

[@mileskilo8031]

I think it's time to involve some lawyers and make those cheaters feel actual real consequences after they got caught. Set up contracts between the organisations and their players and the tournament sponsors. I don't get how they can deal with prizepools in the hundreds of thousands but not protect themselves by professional scammers and frauds, what cheaters are basically are, legally. I dare the one who says "it's just a game"...if it's just a game, then don't offer 100k for 1st place and give them a hickey and a hug instead...

[@Schnupfndrache7]

KQLY got a total 80k price money with cheating in tournaments. Thats a fraud to all the other pro players who deserve the money

[@BaRroWsDuDe]

Schnupfndrache7 Yes, because obviously since he just now got banned means that he must have cheated in every single cs:go event that had money on the line. Did you even watch the video? Thorin specifically concentrated on refuting your simplistic way of thinking about this issue.

[@tweak187]

Schnupfndrache7 You might be exactly the kind of person Thorin was referring to in the video... rofl did you even watch this before commenting?

[@echomjp]

Real consequences? How about a fine, and requiring them to pay back whatever prize money they won? Any more than that is simply vengeance - and the fact that those who get ousted for this kind of cheating are basically screwed out of ever playing competitively again is already a fairly big punishment. Also yes, it is just a game. The fact that someone offered money for said game doesn't make it any less a game, and while the theft of money is a serious issue, it can be dealt with accordingly. It isn't like this money was stolen from an old man's last retirement savings - $100,000 after all is chump change by company standards and by the sorts that host these kinds of tournaments in the first place. As long as they get their money back and make sure that the person can never cheat again in that sort of competitive setting, that alone is enough to discourage others from cheating.

[@TheSuperappelflap]

echomjp going to jail would be an appropriate punishment for stealing part of 100K in my book.

[@heart5929]

motar pls donate to thorin so he can afford a radiator

[@chinarep1]

Totally agree with you on this one. I used to play BF3 competitively on one of the top 2 teams NA (yes I realize the comp scene in BF is a joke compared to CS:GO; please don't flame :P). Eventually, our best player got caught hacking but none of us had any idea. We also went out of our way to make sure nobody was hacking by doing background checks and making everyone record all their gameplay. As Thorin pointed out, though, even with background checks and recordings it's hard for a team to know if a player is hacking. If I remember correctly, the banning resulted in the team losing thousands of dollars, but luckily none of the sponsors left.

[@chcameron]

I agree with everything said by Thorin, but I feel like you could have this kind of argument about every discussion because there are stupid people sharing their stupid opinions about everything, and not worth getting so upset in my opinion. If this is an issue where people whose opinions actually matter or who are very influential, then that's worth getting angry about.

[@Sl1ckTh13f]

***** When they can use that cheat to win thousands of dollars it's kind of a big deal.

[@Thekossiable]

There's no stupid opinions only stupid people.

[@HhqcRules]

Thekossiable Da fuq does that shit mean? Opinions from stupid people are stupid opinions.

[@omegaxvi2]

Elijah Wyatt You replied to the wrong person?

[@L0LBlaster]

XsR yes, my bad

[@johanwillemse3419]

I know its a serious topic , and I agree with all the points you made. But I laughed so much in this video

[@Lilraider00l]

The terminator reference and the impersonation of the coach had me dying lmao

[@moonasha]

ant driving a motorcycle around a pence did it for me

[@JohnDoe-uc5iu]

Me too XD

[@TheMrLachon]

Fucking lost it "People but it up their ass!". Nice vid though, totally agree.

[@dark_sunset]

moonasha Same hahaha

[@Roggay47]

The idea about putting Titan and Epsilon back into the qualifier with a new player was exactly what I was thinking should be done. Imo it is the most logical thing to do. Denying all those players the chance to compete is like a double punition. 1: They lost a player and are probably worse than they were before, 2: They can't compete and will lose a ton of money (in stickers among others).

[@ultsi1870]

I do not follow much CS:GO tournaments, but the content of this video made me watch it full 31 minutes. Great and essential points. By the way, you sound 95% like Tommy Carcetti, from The Wire.

[@SgtFurby]

There needs to be more people like you in this world, Thooorin. Not only are you spot on with just about every point and suggestion made, but your ability to thoroughly explain and look at every end of the spectrum on a situation was so vivid I was practically constructing a mental map to all of your comparisons and analogies. Blame the victim is prevalent in the world today and part of the reason a lot of people are just shit. As I always tell people in CS:GO MM games, stop blaming the ping, or tickrate, or hackers, or cheaters, teammates, etc., because the only thing I never hear people blame is themselves. It is always someone else's fault for their loss. Sub to you, and keep it up.

[@kushdog8]

Great video, couldn't agree more with some of the things you said. I appreciate your well-thought way of speaking. Subscribed and now a fan.

[@cuzyahoosucks767]

Fully agree with you, mate. This is the same stuff I tell people when I make a pro gun argument. Lol. You can't defy logic, only assume, wish or speculate without having any real grasp on the reality of the topic.

[@QurttoRco]

14:16 how do you even think this shit up ?

[@Celestatiune]

Good stuff as usual Thorin. I'd like to add a few points: Even if, in some fantasy universe, you're able to get semi-pros dusk to dawn babysat by someone who you somehow know is 100% infallible to make sue they don't cheat, any online event is going to be vulnerable to DDOS attacks on the players, either to completely prevent them from playing and force a forfeit (as has currently been alleged to happen in League), or create unpredictable lagspikes during the match, giving one team an advantage. This situation is incredibly sticky because there's absolutely no way to know who launched the attack or why, you can't simply forfeit the other team assuming they were complicit, because it could be the first team or their fans trying to force the forfeit, or some random anonymous-style group just doing it to be obnoxious. - There SHOULD be a fairly high degree of certainty at any major LAN event, though - If players are allowed to bring in files onto the match computers on thumb drives, that's a really dumb mistake. Plenty of corporations physically prevent intrusions of that sort. Legal bindings, sensitivity settings, and whatever else needs to be done through the console can either be submitted beforehand for speed, and/or logged and analyzed afterwards to make sure all the commands are kosher. I feel that any online tournament or qualifier is going to be difficult to police no matter what, and all you can do is try to make detection and security better, but it's always going to be a security vulnerability.

[@Drunk146]

You and I sir should have a discussion about the world in general, as I'm not too fond of the answer "it's this because I feel like it" instead of "it's this because of reason A, B and C", totally agree on giving the teams a chance to qualify, keep up with the vids!

[@MedPackSnack]

I subscribed based off this video. You speak with purpose and logic despite the emotion showing through. Well done for speaking your mind. It will keep the integrity of the game in tact if the community keep an open mind in regards to making decisions based around evidence and fact.

[@Neroshkiet]

4:30 hate speech? discrimination? Its reminds me a certain situation where u and poland was involved...

[@Tau252]

thought the same thing.

[@mehDivine]

This whole video is ironic as fuck.

[@Roggay47]

I love thorin, but I have to agree that this is very ironic.

[@feeling_alright187]

Roggay47 since thorin is getting more exposure he thinks he's above everybody else. thorin lacks logical reasoning.

[@kiivari999]

yeah totally this, because he is a horrible racist piece of shit who thinks everyone should be hated on, just because he once said something offensive. 14:15

[@pungpillarpelle]

Plot twist: Thorin is the creator of the cheat that just got detected.

[@baijokull]

For LANs, do the players bring their own equipment? If the players needed to use a computer set up at the tournament or are all the specialized settings that the players use too complex to set up before each match? Just speculating.

[@Lagahan]

How does the computers at these tournaments work? Couldn't Valve just design an offline client and run a custom version of SteamOS that locks everything out except the game itself from running? Just have the players use dummy accounts.

[@M2theAGGOT]

Kinda exactly like.... Riot for an example?

[@Shanetim]

They can't use SteamOS because some pros' peripherals require drivers that may not be supported.

[@ZeroGaming-ds7mb]

I was surprised to learn that as well, forget STEAM OS, there are plentiful of ways to have the tournament organizers setup the PCs and have them secured so nothing else can get installed and player can only have access to the PCs at time of game and when recorded, kind of weird to me.

[@Lagahan]

Zero Gaming Yeah of course there's plenty of ways to lock down a Windows PC, I was just thinking if they used SteamOS they could monitor literally everything in memory address space, have no cheeky little cheats floating around in there. Shane Reeves True, would be a very good way of getting them to support Linux by having the players they sponsor have to use their peripherals on SteamOS.

[@Yolomamba24]

its not hard to lock everything except cs. Internet/gaming cafes do this. And creating/providing dummy accounts should be no problem at all. All the players should be allowed is keyboard mouse and headset And if they wanted to be even more safe, have an admin standing behind the teams.

[@Richard-ou8tu]

I love the way you construct your arguments! keep it up!

[@gregmontgomery1415]

I fucking love you when youre emotional and unfiltered, THORIN. You're the Joe ROgan of E-Sports. Please never ever stop being you.

[@CptSaveABro808]

The passion is real. Good video. I for one believe the sponsors should be held accountable but the knee jerk reaction to Titan and Epsilon should not be the standard. Of course it all depends on what comes out of the investigation(?) which is going to be difficult to obtain seeing as Valve isn't talking to the team sponsors or organizations. How far does the rabbit hole go will probably never be answered and we will have to go on ONLY what we know, which is what you suggested. Going forward I could see teams or organizations being put on some kind of probation but again, it depends on how much damaging information there is. I'm probably more annoyed with Valve's current stance of silence. I can only hope they can articulate the reasons for the bans and even better, if they can provide historical documentation. KQLY claims that he only used a cheat to "try it out" and never used it on LANs or when he was with Titan. It's a touch call to determine whether he's only half-trothing to save some face (or someone else's ass) or if he's completely opened up.

[@ImAfricanJesus]

If 2 people from the same team get banned for the SAME CHEAT made by the SAME PERSON, it is 90% that they both knew. How else are they going to find the SAME PERSON who sells the SAME CHEAT.

[@charliedah]

I agree that it sounds really suspicious. And being suspecious about it is fine, just natural. But the dangerous part comes when you assumes that they knew. You go out on hltv like: "They surely knew about eachothers hacks, it's fucking obvious, omfg they r so shitty their whole team probably knew". Pretty much what this video is about, haha. Being suspicious, sure. But drawin conclusions withour proff, don't.

[@PEPPERS777]

who are those two people you are talking about?

[@BigMacsm245]

Arviga JokeR drawing conclusions without proof is how we live our lives i dont phone up tesco and demand they send me a picture of cat food to prove to me they have it i just go get some. say it was 5/5 players caught cheating are you gonna assume they all done it independently, there's never going to be a secret tape uncovered where they all talk about cheating but 99% of people will assume they did it together and they probably did

[@scinaty]

This video is so great, I really enjoyed every second of it. Of course it is a serious matter and all of his points are pretty valueable, but the way he is speaking and the choice of argumentation really made me lol hard.

[@emarioe]

Thorin is a cs god. Keeping it alive. been playing since beta's. Thank you for what you do man.

[@UnivegaSuperSport]

It's a tough, uphill battle to appeal to reason. That visceral adrenalin jolt we get from the snap judgement and the power to damage a reputation is a tough drug to pass up.

[@Absyssus]

thorin my friend, get a heater

[@IanFitty]

ignorance is the most deadly disease. Thorin is right to be as moved as he is. This way of thinking and this frustration can be applied to an infinite number of things beyond gaming as well. On a side note, you're ridiculously creative with your analogies. i fuckin love it!

[@LawL_LawL]

I don't always agree with what Thorin says but this has to be one of my favourites for both entertainment value and valid points. I really like this kind of arguing a point too, very fun to listen to and get a good view of it as I find I get carried away by when I'm the proponent of an argument and have to explain myself to someone. "And that's about all it's worth mate, the fucking little tick of energy in your brain that wouldn't be enough if you converted it into fucking petrol, to power an ant's motorcycle around a one-pence piece you piece of shit." Probably entertained me more than it should have, but it's frighteningly accurate when it comes to assessing many opinions you'll find that are supported by fuck all when it come to solid evidence or suitable information for one to derive such specific conclusions from.

[@isaacjames9898]

Great Video, totally agree and happy to see I'm not the only one who thinks this. The punishment reminds me of when teachers would give the whole class a detention because one person done something wrong.

[@DivineFrag]

Hi Thorin. Mention the Copenhagen Wolves issue?

[@ASCAB]

CPH wolves issue?

[@xzst]

Otingokni A CPHW ex player stole 18k from them, now he is gone.

[@Misha14PL]

u mean cadiaN and so is CPH wolves supported by everyone even though they behave like bunch of 15 year old idiots?

[@jgo413]

smok3ybg it was their manager

[@jgo413]

Misha14PL even if they act like assholes they dont deserve to be robbed

[@jbowen3687]

I want an ant-sized motorcycle. I would power it with my deep and well thought out opinions on how the CZ is OP. Then it would travel around a quarter and all would be right in the world.

[@ROBMrs]

good rant, hope somehow dreamhack take back their decision and allow titan to play with a ringer

[@PivBlast]

WARNING: this is just a idea. If you know how you can recover deleted data from Harddrives (don't know about SSD) and you can look at the date of data use, download and etc.

[@pedrodavid6041]

First time watching and I couldn't really look away from the fact you're using the headphones I'm thinking about buying (429/439 right?). What do you think about them?

[@komvolt]

super fucking relevant in light of the yee_lamoe1 scandal

[@wayup8122]

apparently he was hacked via his twitter, and didn't say anything about cheaters only about games predictions and such

[@Crufty09]

You are 100% right Thorin. + (off topic) you should heat your room! :)

[@L0LBlaster]

Yo, the black window on the right, with the white text is the same format that playlists use. It makes it seem like all these videos are playlists. You mgiht want to consider changing the thumnail, or not. Not a big issue, just wanted to make you aware that it is a tad bit confusing.

[@HostileChickenGaming]

I agree with most things you say but surely at LAN events they can contain the computers from players beforehand and block file transfers on the computers?

[@ParkRangerStan]

The principles stated in this video are still relevant today, and can (and should) be applied to any situation where some person(s) integrity is in question. Re-watching in 2016.

[@MrProdam]

Great video as usual Thorin. Can imagine the look on your face when you read these youtube comments from the same people you are talking about.

[@MrPinkzzzzz]

Hi Thooorin I agree with what your saying was gonna make a point but. I imagine this would already be in players contracts about if you get caught cheating or match fixing they will get banned. I also agree that the whole team shouldn't get kicked from tournament play due too the actions of one player. I just wanted to share that keep up the good work!

[@EhRabz]

I totally agree with you.. But there HAS been a crazy amount of french hackers in MM , it doesn't have to do with French people at all, but just how social networking works, if a guy in France got a sick hack, and gave it to his buddy and so on, logically France would have majority of people using THAT hack at the time, strictly because of word of mouth until it reaches further places, of course this happens a lot faster when the people who have access to it are friends with people all around the world, such as this case.

[@jeanpaulkassdale]

Hey Thorin, Just a question that came to my mind, would appreciate your insight on this : What do you think would happen to CSGO as a game if 30% of pros (completely hypothetical, but it is a number mentionned by some insiders/players/concerned people) would have to be VAC banned at the same time ? Would Valve think twice of it before releasing the bans ? Might they even consider not releasing them at some point, considering the consequences it may have on sponsors,etc... ? Thank you in advance and keep up the good work, cheers.

[@SubaBlubba]

The rly good part begins at 22:00 Some guys are to naive and blame always just 1 Person. Atleast those should be shouted enough at at the beginning. Keep up the work !

[@sagoztyle]

Hahaha, man. Thank god someone bright up theese dark cs times. Thorin, you are amazing, and really know what you are talking about. You made my day!

[@ronnieharrisson]

are you goingto make a video of the boost in olofpass?

[@Kinrag1]

First a Matchfixing scandal then a team assaulted, and now a VAC ban scandal. RIP CSGO 2012 - 2014

[@reklessbravo2129]

Why doesn't anyone compare hacking in esports to steriod use in physical sports. They are different situations but they are similar enough to be worthy of comparison.

[@duGGee13]

Yeah if someone was taking steroids on a team the whole team would be disqualified from a competition. This has happened recently in Australia. Valve is taking a zero tolerance policy to cheating and i agree with it. Now for the people that are on the cheating witch hunt, I totally understand where they are coming from. I HATE cheaters with a passion. You are always going to get people that take it too far but do you know what they have gone through? How much time they have wasted because there has been a cheater in there game? It is a way for the honest player to vent some frustration. I'm not saying it's the best way and neither is cheating even if it's a minute cheat. I'm happy some big name pro players have been VAC banned and there teams disqualified even tho there are victims on there teams. It is bringing the issue to discussion and something positive will eventually come of it.

[@xomiakas]

LOVE the Christopher Hitchens quote

[@ovekng]

i dont understand why epsilon and titan couldn't do the qualifiers

[@pjano11]

I get what Thorin is saying but it would actually be really easy to monitor the players at a big LAN tournament like dreamhack. Just before they start they should get a PC and be monitored while changing any settings. The PC could also run some software that prevents any alt tabbing or 3rd party stuff

[@rrasmuuus]

I agree with you on everything but what you were talking about at around 28:00. CS:GO is a team E-Sport and when KQLY cheats, he cheats for the team, even though the players he cheated for didn't know about it he still cheated for the team. Now if they caught him cheating outside of the team, what you are saying is correct. Then the team shouldn't be punished, but if he got caught will doing 5 man premade with Titan then the whole team should be banned from the tournament. Team sports is about trust and teamwork between players, sure enough the players who say they had no idea he was cheating is getting punished for something they didn't do BUT KQLY cheated under the name TITAN KQLY and therefore it's a part of the TEAM cheating. I think dreamhack is doing the right thing here (If KQLY was VAC-banned while playing with the rest of the team.) If they had caught him before the Actuall qualifiers THEN they could take in a new player otherwise the team MIGHT have been involved in the cheating and still being able to play. It's all about assumptions, you can't asume that the whole team is involved in the cheating but neither can you asume that the whole team isn't involved in the cheating. KQLY betrayed his teammates and that is an evil thing to do, if the other guys in the team wasn't involved that is.

[@UndercoverPirate69]

The solution is that competitions are played on location on provided machines and clients. Importing of hardware profiles must be done by someone else from the organisation and provided long before the event begins. The combination of people, pressure and money has always been a toxic one.

[@MRMcLobster]

I still don't understand this one thing: Why cant they make everyone play on fresh steam accounts on clean install of windows computers and mice/keyboards they don't have physical access to beforehand, with no connection to the internet or whatever? seems like a sound solution.... too expensive?

[@samfudgeo1191]

I'm about half way through the video and loving it, but just a quick question for anyone. (Personally don't know, just a thought) Do sportspersons, etc. Get tested for drugs, after their event? Or before? (Because.. I don't know, just a thought) is there any possibility that they can run some sort of check? For anything running suspicious on the system? Maybe Valve can create a program to do basically, the same scan It does when people actually get banned, that can be used at the event pre-game or at half time? I know there are many other factors, your point about the possibility of a hack on USB or the players being at a gaming house, console commands, etc. But if you know anything about this, please tell me! :)

[@SergeiTheAnarch]

I love how the accent gets more noticeable the angrier he gets.

[@Aidmyster22]

Brilliant analysis , brilliant Analogy and greatly spoken :)

[@irakirk3381]

[@irakirk3381]

At least, I think that's what this video was talking about. I couldn't handle more than 5 minutes of getting shouted at.

[@jhNNNNNNNy]

@7:47 the delivery was fucking amazing, i lol'ed hard

[@ElvenMans]

Great thoughts! Maybe too much logic is in what you said for some people so they just can't process it, but that's expected.

[@kemita]

I stopped playing CS back in 2005. I only played with my crew in LAN because if any smack talk happened there would be a beat up. Enjoyed this video, had no idea cheats got so effective to allow the small rodents sneak into pro leagues. Big respect to Valve for caring about their business.

[@rabbit2840]

hats off to you for sticking to your words (that I think are very true), even when you risk getting kicked from dreamhack.

[@skgman90]

Couldn't they add clauses in contracts that involve a financial penalty if you get caught cheating?

[@JKTVonYT]

Thorin, I can say I totally agree with you. But I can also see the persons being suspicious towards players doing "weird" motions in games before this whole "new" cheat that can be activated on LAN came to peoples understanding, then there´s going to be people shouting out that players are cheating. There´s nothing you can do about these people assuming players are cheating.

[@filegrabber1]

Thorin, you nailed it. Everyone should calm down as long as there is no hard evidence.

[@ArenaRevolt]

I bet there is a way to log all the operations done in particular workstation. You can also set people to use random machines. There might be an monitoring happening, I am suprised there is none. If you have no access to internet or ability to use external data devices, I might not see a way to exploit machine otherwise. Everything can be monitored.

[@Entewickler]

other question, which mic do you use? :D

[@TheCikaBane]

I understand Thorin with the "don't punish the team for 1 players actions", but this is Valve's way of saying let this be a lesson for all teams: check your players. So im ok with Titan and Epsilon cut.. Scapegoat is legit

[@Misha14PL]

The biggest issue I have is, whenever there was a godlike play from snax, jw, krimz, shox etc you thought about how great they are, they're gods of cs, they're just so fucking good at it. Now if that happens there will always be a liitle bit of doubt? Was that perfectly legit ?

[@why-mope]

have to disagree the premise that punishment doesn't discourage criminals from committing the crimes. For example, if thieves' hands are cut off, how are they going to steal again? Not saying how thieves should be punished here, just using it as an example

[@cyrus147]

ok lets bring it in to reality then.. if you steal food from a store you get punished by going to jail for it... and then when he's out of jail.. how could he possibly steal again?

[@ROGUESPIRIT_]

you're a fuckign idiot. that didnt stop them stealing in the first place

[@why-mope]

skedaddlej lmao, next time you get robbed, don't call the police, because calling the police doesn't stop them from stealing you... what an idiot, the law is not there to prevent crimes, it's there to punish. Makes people think twice

[@ianritta]

Haha, somebody get the idiot box, I've got one over here. You realize you used the premise you disagree with, within your example.

[@EnolaTheAmazing]

not too keen on thorin's social media antics but his vlogs are legit spot on

[@earaser170993]

Your best video ever Thorin! You are freaking awsome!

[@ahmadnasseri1618]

best entertaining video on youtube , i dont know but everytime i watch it i start laghing

[@lesbles007]

After Watching this video, I asked myself, am i one of those forum idiots he is speaking about, and the answer was a resounding yes. Thank you for giving me a fresh viewpoint. You have at least converted 1 person at the very least with this informative video. I salute you sir!

[@wagglycloth4547]

Why is he sat in his house with a scarf and a winter jacket on? Is he extremely indie or just can't afford heating?

[@SadBoysCollectiveCirca96]

7:56 XD the manager joke had my dying

[@dent20111]

Thoorin you are an absolute legend!!! Great piece!

[@paaaaaaaaq]

It goes on and on. Putting things on top of things. Capt. Obvious at his finest works.

[@walk_dont_walk]

i loved your talk. I admire your intellect combined with your talent to speak.

[@HoneyBadgerHog]

Why does thorin always wear a scarf and a jumper?

[@th3tech]

bottom line, kqly fucked over titan, big time. they should be extremely mad.

[@wtbanyname]

It was an epic rant, alright! Mostly fair, tho. I think there's a point that completelly flew by unmentioned, that being ... (and I UNDERSTAND the concern with punishing the teammates/organization that were also obvious victms)... the fact there's a concern with protecting the organizations that weren't even involved in the cheating scandal. Unfortunatelly, we don't have an e-sports law that regulates that kind of behavior or an e-sports major org that will have plain set rules on how to deal with such instances. So, whenever something like this happens, it's very complicated to assign blame/responsibility... There's no due process to be followed. As in, there's going to be a trial where all parts involved are gonna get a fair defense and then, a sentencing. It's a very sensitive issue and it serves to show that for e-sports to go mainstream there are going to be many ajustments still to be made. I agree, however, that the most basic concept of justice should be held in any case: "Innocent until proven guilty".

[@sadekgheidan]

[@Bynming]

The manager was like "well it'd be rude to step in" fucking lost it.

[@stardustie]

7:10 onwards I FUCKING LOST IT COMPLETELY.. Thooorin is the man!

[@iAMwReckLesss]

So many people are missing the issue this video talks about. He's *_not_* talking about cheaters who get caught and how they should not be punished or hated, he's talking about the people who are, as far as Valve is concerned, legit, and their teams and organizations.

[@Man1anlol]

It's always cold in Thorin's room

[@jarrett8042]

10/10 The statements in this video will probably cause kids to get buttflustered, but it's a legit video.

[@mgaborio]

He reminds me of an angry football (soccer) fan about to go rioting because the other team is a "fockin piece of shit". He's using the exact behavior and language that he's talking against. Also by his logic: "That's your oppinion, I don't give a fock!"

[@jsnldn]

Great vid. TBH I didn't really care either way that Epsilon and Titan were disqualified. Other than finding it amusing. But yeah thinking about it, it is somewhat victim blaming to DQ the whole team just because one player is VACd. They should be allowed to try and qualify for the tourney again instead of just being barred from Dreamhack.

[@sludge486]

this dude is awesome. hell, I don't even play CS that much. he needs his own show!

[@fatmitch1421]

11:20 I can't rly see the problem in looking what player is doing by referees. Like in LoL. What's the problem?? Referees should know commands etc.

[@mrLamma]

Thooorin Well you didn't think about one thing. I agree with you that its unfair to punish the organization and teammates for one persons transgression. There is a big BUT though. Right now the initiator of cheating is one person. What if the organization doesn't get punished - then the organization itself may become an initiator of the hacking in some cases. If they don't get caught they earn a lot of money, if they do - they only would have just to put a stand-in and re-qualify for the event. It becomes a calculated risk because the punishment is very mild. So disqualification is not only punishment of the victim, but also a form of prevention for the victim to become a perpetrator itself.

[@iAMwReckLesss]

He said if that becomes the case, then that's a different story. But we can't say they do with no proof. Speculating gets us nowhere. You can't go at people with a "guilty until proven innocent" mentality.

[@mrLamma]

wReckLesss Well I'm not saying "they do" either. And i agree 100% that you cant blame the team or organization without any basis, and speculate that they could be involved without any proof. What I'm addressing is Thooorin thought that disqualification of the teams from event was too much and they should have just let them to re-qualify for event. I disagree with that. If the organization wouldn't be punished, then it could (not saying it would) create an environment where the orgs themselves would pressure a player who miss-performs to hack. Because if he gets caught - then the org would just cut him lose and go on like nothing has ever happened. Where is money, there will always be corruption. Imagine how it would look if after hacking incident event organizers would just tap Titan president on a shoulder and say - yeah well this is very awkward for us, but we don't really about hacking - just go beat some shit teams in last minute qualifier with a stand-in so we event organizers would save some face. Well i believe THEN there would be a strong reason to guess and speculate that maybe not only the person caught is at fault.

[@ItsByramTime]

My question would be how long this hack has been around, or any suspicions? also does anyone think maybe a team has won without knowledge of the hack/cheat being installed? may be a silly question to ask so don't yell :)

[@SLAGTP]

his examples and explanations are valid +British humor

[@insolens8613]

thoorin this made me laugh just because of how true it is. keep on going man and greetings from south africa.

[@svenschukat2958]

Nice Thorin, keep the content comming!!

[@agusona9392]

Hey, I don't know if I missed a point here, but to me it seems like you are saying teams shouldn't be held responsible at all for having a cheater in their rooster. I must say, while I agree that a team may (or even probably) not know one of their players is cheating, in any competition that is to be taken seriously there should be some kind of guarantee that there are cheaters. One way, perhaps the best, to do this is to have rules that state that if any player gets caught (with enough evidence, of course) cheating, that player's team will be immediately disqualified, and maybe even fined. It may sound harsh, I know, but it's the way it works with any other sport and ultimately the player's team is in the best position (out of all agents) to enforce good behaviour from the player. If it's feasible in terms of money (I know most teams are small and don't really have the resources to overwatch their players' behaviour) is an entirely different question, but a competition where I can't be confident (at least to a reasonable extent) that players aren't cheating isn't worth even watching, and that is a serious problem if you expect the pro scene to grow. tl;dr: If the pro scene is to be taken seriously, team need to be held responsible for their players' behaviour. Costly as it may be for small teams, they are in the best position to enforce fair play from their players and it's the only way the pro scene can grow.