Thoughts on My First Game of Pathfinder 2e

[@paddlesawtactic9788]

GM'd my first game of 2e last week. This encounter is what made me realize that I was loving this game. The party was fighting some skeletons, and the gunslinger Recalled Knowledge while reloading, so he let the party know that piercing and slashing would be less effective. The rogue looked devastated. When it came to his turn, I asked him what he wanted to do. It was the first session, so I gave some ideas. Do you want to aid the barbarian, back up or something else? He then threw his daggers on the floor, put up his dukes, and started punching the skeletons. After his first attack, he asked me if he could walk through an enemy's space, so I told him to try and Tumble through. He succeeded and was now flanking the skeleton with the gunslinger, and used his third action to punch again , this time with sneak attack. We described it like he ducked and weaved through the skeletons like a boxer and it felt so cool. Meanwhile, our barbarian across the room was fighting two skeletons on his own. He missed an attack with his greatclub, then told me his weapon had the backswing trait, meaning the multi attack penalty is reduced if he misses the first attack, so he attacked again and barely hit the skeleton. I was so proud that he remembered that something seemingly as simple as his weapon had this special ability, as well as so happy that all these options were making themselves apparant in the first session, for Level 1 characters. The gunslinger than finished the fight with his Daze cantrip (because he's a kobold with that heritage that gives you a cantrip). After the fight, they found a well made shield, and they asked me how much it could be sold for. The module said 5 gold... but, I remembered something. We made fun of the gunslinger because he picked something like accountant or broker as his background, giving him Accounting Lore. We had been laughing, like, that is so specific, when would that ever be useful? But in this moment I asked him "Make me an Accounting Lore check". Nat 20. So I told him the shield was worth 5 gold, but with some haggling and deception, he could sell it for 10. The entire table lost their mind that Accounting Lore came in handy so early.

[@IcarusGames]

I love that!!

[@knightghaleon]

This story is such a great example of low level play with some great role play and creativity

[@Dabedidabe]

Great job on coming up with that Accounting lore check, that's great DMing!

[@TheRulesLawyerRPG]

LOVE that you've had your first game! Love to hear your enthusiasm. And to think you've only tried 1 level of one of the NINE implements for the thaumaturge! The combining of bonuses and penalties was eliminated in 5e, but honestly I think it's one of the coolest feelings in PF2 as you described here. (And not as wonky/out of control as in 3e/PF1)

[@TrueXyrael]

Ironically, there are people raging about the "illusion of choice" in PF2E. Essentially, the argument goes, while there are so many choices to be made, players only have a certain set of actions to do in order to play optimally. Such that, by level 9-12, despite all the options presented to you, to do the most damage you have to do X+Y+Z with your actions. I think that this argument stems from 1. bad GM'ing and 2. toxic veteran gamers unwilling to play suboptimally/unwilling to RP. Which are problems any system that rolls dice will have.

[@kryptonianguest1903]

The Rules Lawyer made a video showing that the "illusion of choice" in PF2 is mathematically false.

[@TrueXyrael]

@@kryptonianguest1903 I believe it. But it's also down to encounters, if you're the kind of GM that only throws inconsequential combat encounters at your players, you can't be surprised if your players complain that they're bored all they do is shapeshift into a dinosaur. Maybe if the answer to a combat encounter wasn't just 'kill the opponent' then players would be inclined to do something else.

[@zachariahmerry2396]

It's also very much important to keep in mind that Taking20's video on that (what is where lots of this view comes from), lots of his examples on "optimal play" are... incredibly sub-optimal. Like for example: just standing there and attacking three times every single turn, when the system is specifically set up with MAP in a way that unless you're playing a flurry ranger it's more useful to do... pretty much literally anything else (and even then, that just makes it a "I mean yeah it's not terrible"). When someone's example on how players were forced to play a specific way to stay optimal used on of the few ways that are specifically designed to be incredibly sub-optimal, that suggests the person might have some fundamental misunderstandings with how the system works.

[@dungeonmaster16]

@@kryptonianguest1903 even as a rookie gm to pf2 the bs of “illusion of choice” I don’t see at all. Even by lvl 7 now with party they are versatile on what they do. Mainly in bit lenient on them swapping feats if not fan or work well which is fine.

[@FaptainCalcon750]

Playing to maximize individual player damage output is generally a bad idea in P2e. Teamwork makes the dream work.

[@windmark8040]

I REALLY like that PF2 crit mechanic. Sooo satisfying!

[@strataslayer2512]

it really just ends up making sense too like obviously someone who's a master thief would never critfail picking a simple padlock and yet when it happens in 5e it just saps any and all enjoyment I get our of playing the character

[@Andrew-qt8dn]

Haven't seen one of your vids recommended to me in a while. Nice to see you're still making quality videos.

[@MoonbreakerGames]

Keep having fun! I love running Pathfinder 2e.

[@adrianogoulart6096]

I'm really considering use PF2 for my next campaign and it's very motivating seeing you speak that about it. I read a lot about PF2 already but it~s always good to hear from someone who actually play the game.

[@ChangesOfTomorrow]

I fell in love with Pf2 when playing the starter box. Thank you for the video, I’ll definitely try the Thaumaturge 😊

[@IcarusGames]

It's so much fun!

[@franmendoza3952]

PF2E is by far my favourite RPG system both to GM and enjoy as a player. I've been playing RPGs since the late 80s and have played all sorts of games over the years, including all editions of D&D. The flexibility of the system considering it's a bit on the rules heavy side of d20 games is a testament to the great game design that has gone into it. The focus on teamwork over optimised character builds is a big plus. Endless character options that keep being expanded every month allow players to flesh out even the craziest character concepts, usually in multiple ways. Digital tools like Pathbuilder 2e and Foundry VTT make it even better. And of course, Paizo is such a great publisher. Very creative and hard working to keep their very high standards month after month. Proud to be a subscriber! Here's to many years of enjoying this system. Move over D&D, you may have the recognisable brand but there's a better fantasy game now!

[@mathiasjrs2878]

I think one of the thing about pf2e is that it has a high prep time but once you are past that i think it flows quite well compared to 5e (it is the only other system i have played). The second thing is that when the book says you have made a hard encounter you should and have to trust it.

[@Fedes47]

I've recently started learning pf2e after 4+ years of DMing 5e, I kinda knew before for some 5e content but now you've got me hooked! Thanks to you and the rules lawyer I've discovered pf2e and I've got so say, it looks like 5e but with all the problems fixed!

[@bensharplesfilm]

Ran a test of PF2E adapting Against the Cult of the Reptile God for my 5e campaign group as a fun side adventure. I must say I went in with expectations to enjoy the system and left it with more excitement to use it for my next campaign. The only downsides was teaching players and navigating some of the semantics of it. But overall felt easier to run than 5e and more fun to prep. However on a player side it can be a bit too much for some passive players. Note: ran it on Foundry so that helped a ton. I personally wouldn't run the system at table however.

[@IcarusGames]

VTTs help with running Pathfinder a lot. Once you've got a bit of experience with them on VTTs, at the table play comes easily enough.

[@envytee9659]

It's objectively harder to run a PF2 game than a 5e game. PF2 is simply a beefier system with more to keep track of. More fun to prep, I can agree with although I admit this is entirely subjective and based on the kind of game you run.

[@SofaKingDead]

@@envytee9659 I would have to disagree. 5ed has so many holes in it's rules I am just making up half the mechanics. That is fine for a veteran DM like myself but for new a DM that kind of defeats the purpose of buying a gaming system hoping the designers did their job so you can just worry about running the game.

[@ghostyuki-kfpinquisitor1038]

Your description of how you set them up for one big attack reminds me of why i like grappling so much. When you can knock the enemy's ac down by 3 or 4, the crits just keep coming. It's why i like to joke on my anadi that i'm basically our gunslinger's animal companion. Sometimes don't even attack, it's just set them up so the sniper can nuke them. Being a rogue, if the thing I'm holding is still alive, full round of sneak attacks to look forward to (since grab lasts til end of the turn). The customization has always been my favorite part.

[@carloscaro9121]

As the Forever GM running tons of PF2e, I finally got to play. Playing PF2e is so much more fun than 5e, and running it is so much less hassle. We're level 2; I'm a Human Maestro Bard with the Medic Archetype, meaning I am the master of buffs and can save party members left and right. We're six players; a human pistolero gunslinger, a sprite thief rogue, a dwarven fighter, a human wizard, and a human warpriest of Ragathiel. Our first combat encounter at level 2, after some minor stuff as level 1, we are trying to ambush a warg pack. Between Theater Lore, Warfare Lore, Survival, Stealth, and Crafting, we find their hunting trails, figure out where to ambush them, and get and disable a bear trap. We then stake the bear trap and lay the party in wait, hiding our tracks, while the Bard plays that they are caught in a careless hunter's trap and helpless. Sure enough, we open the whole thing up with the wargs on the back foot. We're teaching the new player how to PF2e - he's coming from 5e "Rambo" games where parties basically DON'T cooperate. The Gunslinger wins initiative, gets his step, and then we convince him Delay and play with the team. The bard opens: Inspire Courage, Lingering Performance, Intimidating Glare. BANG. Headshot. 15-ish point Gunslinger crit thanks to the buffs/debuffs put up. We show him the math behind what just happened and how the setup helps. His eyes went wide. In one turn, we've made him a Pathfinder player. Teamwork. The Sprite comes out of Stealth and gets Sneak Attack. The Dwarven Fighter is tanking like a boss and dealing damage. The Wizard is adding damage via cantrip and saving her leveled spells, but her Recall Knowledge gets the Sprite to not stay in a square where she might get Swallowed Whole. The Warpriest doesn't have much healing to do yet, so he gets a few shots in. The wargs are definitely taking the worst of it. Top of Round 2, Big Daddy Warg comes in (I suspect just an Elite Warg). Daddy Warg does some serious damage. Bard: Magic Weapon on the Gunslinger, then Battle Medicine the Dwarf. By now, our new player is like, "Wait, we can do all that?" Yes, we can. Gunslinger: So I was reading that I get free reloads if I demoralize like what you did? I also have Intimidating Glare? How do I...? BANG. HEADSHOT. 29 points to the Elite Warg. We see it's getting ready to run. Our Fighter grapples it with Athletics, which sets it up for the Sprite to Sneak Attack it and our Wizard to Ray of Frost and War Priest Strikes with his bastard sword. It crumples and we make short work of the rest of the pack. And this is how we taught a 5e player to play PF2e.

[@shawnjcameron]

I have played and ran games from d&d next and have moved my games over to pathfinder 2e and I love it as a dm and my players love it compared to 5e

[@Jasonwfd]

Glad you had a great time! I'm telling you, once you fully experience the sum of PF2's parts it's hard to go back to any other fantasy rpg system, at least for me. And hell yeah Goblin Thaumaturge!

[@BloodiedShingle]

I'm jazzed to hear you enjoyed your first foray into PF2E! Your group and GM sound really cool too, so that's doubly awesome for all that to line up when the time came for dice to hit the table.

[@HeatherVerhagen]

Sounds like a really neat class. I will definitely take a closer look at it. I love support classes, especially those that let you be creative.

[@donalddouds6033]

Turge is a great class. Using the amulet or bell gives you a reliable use of a reaction. The tome or regalia gives static bonuses to skills that are actually useful and the mirror, well let’s just say providing your own flanking is pretty nice.

[@SubjectTo]

the Thaumaturge is really really great

[@IcarusGames]

Ever since I first read Dark Archive I knew I wanted to run one, so when I got the chance to be a player for this adventure, there was no other choice for me!

[@linus4d1]

I'm glad you are having fun with it.

[@BasementMinions]

Wonderful exploration of your first time as a player! I really hope I'll be able to hop into a player position as the options all seem really fun. But in the meantime I'm really happy running the system. :)

[@Locoulocou]

Thank you for bringing more exposure for pf2e. Even when I mostly play pf2e, I watch your comparisons anyway :)

[@IcarusGames]

I appreciate the support :D

[@TarEcthelion]

I know it's almost certainly accidental, but it's funny to me that the PF2e books are glowing reflecting golden light, while the 5e books are sitting under a set of burned out lights "in shade". ;-)

[@MunitionsDudTester]

Can't wait for my core book to arrive

[@kelly4187]

Well this is a well timed video

[@barrycheesemore2928]

Awesome video! I'm planning on starting a PF2e group soon, I've got plenty of stuff and ideas for foes and NPC's. I've played a fair bit of D&D 5e, and I enjoy playing it, but with PF2e I want to GM the game, but I'd also like to play it at some point. Keep the videos coming, excellent content!!

[@IcarusGames]

Glad you enjoyed the video and good luck running your PF2 game ☺️

[@johnathanrhoades7751]

Last week and this week I got to play PF2e for the first time. Really fun! It will likely replace my 5e stuff going forward. My preference for DM’ing is OsR stuff (OSE, DCC, and the like), but my players love the builds and gaminess, so PF2e will likely be a staple system for us going forward.

[@zibbitybibbitybop]

Only having nothing happen on a crit fail is such a simple but brilliant design decision. It keeps the game moving and prevents players from feeling worthless just because they hit a string of bad rolls, and when you do crit fail, it feels more acceptable because it's a rare occurrence. Failing forward is the only good way to fail.

[@IcarusGames]

It's not everything, but most things only have the bad stuff happen on crit fails. The 4 degrees of success being so widespread really helps to make the game a lot more interesting in its results.

[@WhiteCaneV1]

What a flex in choosing the most complex class lol.

[@IcarusGames]

Is Thaumaturge really the most complex? I genuinely chose it for how freakin' cool it sounded, I gave *very* little consideration to the minute mechanics until after making the decision lol

[@questmarq7901]

@@IcarusGames yeah. I also think it's the most complex. NoNat1s has done a difficulty Tier list if you want to check it out

[@IcarusGames]

@@questmarq7901 I chose Thaumaturge because I felt it was one of the more flavorful classes in supporting roleplay. All the esoterica is an absolute treasure trove for RP in combat, and the implements are hella cool. I'm going to be retraining to take the Regalia instead of amulet for our next adventure so I can lean even more heavily into creating the ultimate force for intimidation.

[@questmarq7901]

@@IcarusGames a party of Thaumaturge (meaning in Greek, the one that creates/makes wonders, or WonderMaker or WonderCreator) in PF2e can replaces any class and actually work. Its literally the best and most complex class in PF2e. Ok maybe the most complex/difficult might be the Summoner, but im not sure. Keep up the great work

[@Akabeche]

@@IcarusGames Nah the Alchemist is much more complex and requires much more system understanding than the thaumaturge

[@magetower]

I've been playing for over 4 decades and when PF2E first came out I ignored it and kept with 5e. The lack of dedicated setting content for 5e and the over simplicity of the rules sort of switched me off so I tried PF2E. I really enjoy PF2E and the 3 action economy is great. Perhaps a little weird for spell casters but still... Love it. Keep us posted as you play more PF2E.

[@mj1mj3]

A "little weird" is certainly one way of putting it I suppose

[@maelstratedoissieaca8241]

I don't have time for a new roleplaying game but I'd love to try pathfinder!

[@christopherdillard1]

You should give 13th Age a try if you haven't. I LOVE PF2e, but 13th Age is pretty damned amazing, too.

[@NatalieRath]

2nd edition soon!

[@Rastayeti666]

so many people try to make combat shorter instead making combat more interesting. imagine how boring chess would be when every figure could only do the same moves. When people have to decide between good options, they will start give attention to combat even when its not their turn

[@ppppppqqqppp]

As a religious zealot of the "Dear god 5e players, please play other games", this is always nice to hear. Even if pathfinder is super similar to 5e, I do find pf2e to basically be the game most people think they're gonna be getting out of 5e, and it's nice to see people diverting away from the WotC monopoly.

[@zoruasnivy]

Seeing how much content PF2e has compared to 5e despite being newer made me realise that 5e was just stifling my creativity the whole time with its limited options (without homebrew). It feels like with DnD I have to make my ideas fit into a box whereas PF2e always has something that can work

[@fnvtyjkusg]

Man's playing pathfinder

[@bensharplesfilm]

😂

[@Nemhyz]

I wanna get into PF2 but scared of it's "this is a much harder system" rep it has. What did you think of PF1 compared to 2?

[@IcarusGames]

I've played PF1, 5e, and PF2, and I'd say in terms of "complexity" that PF2 sits in the middle. If you are comfortable with either of the other systems, you know the majority of core skills you need for PF2 and should be able to pick it up!

[@RicardoPM777]

👏👏👏

[@Mourndarkv]

Pathfinder is more D&D than 5e is. Hands down!

[@bonbondurjdr6553]

Is it me or is it your fourth video with the "Better than D&D" tag?

[@IcarusGames]

Very likely. That's the core question in this series, and the algorithm (which really means people) loves a touch of sensationalism in the title and or thumbnail.

[@boneatellohumerus3738]

What is that sidequest book about? You didn't really go into it

[@IcarusGames]

It's the first 12 issues of my magazine bundled together into a printed book. 190+ pages of player and GM content.

[@hectorcornejo1468]

hm. I bought the beginners kit, I actually was hoping to get away from players being so overpowered in 5th edition.....I hope your video is not assuming this will be the standard with Pathfinder :(

[@IcarusGames]

"overpowered" only means anything in context to the rest of the system. PCs in 5e are overpowered IMO, because the monster design is lacking and the encounter building system is a mess. My experience with PF2 is PCs have a lot more options, but monsters are more powerful and encounter balance works, so they feel like overpowered and more appropriately powered for the encounter you set.

[@bobturpin7611]

Even with the three action economy i still felt useless when i and my summon missed all attacks in a round. I think that your character dealt the final blow to all the major enemies that we the party have faced. Though please remember Poog has also founded a faction. (is it viable for the Jewel Citiies)

[@IcarusGames]

OMG we could totally add Poog's fire cult to the Jewel Cities 😂

[@Zertryx]

I will say that overall I like both PF2E and 5E, but after playing both for an extended period of time I actually went back to 5E, PF2E is new and fresh at first but after playing it for a long period of time you start to see all the cracks (just like 5E) so ive come to the conclusion that really what happens is 5E is 10 years old, If you eat nothing but hamburgers for months and then someone offers you a hotdog you are going to think the hotdog is amazing and delicious, but as soon as you eat hotdogs for months you start to crave hamburgers. This is how i feel what happens with these systems. Neither is bad or worse than the other, they are just different flavors of a similar category both have issues that the other one solves.

[@IcarusGames]

I switched to 5e from PF1 for that breath of fresh now we're 17 levels into our 5e campaign, I am so excited to move back to a paizo system.

[@maxducoudray]

This game sounds like a nightmare of mechanisms.

[@IcarusGames]

It's a bit crunchier and more mechanical than D&D 5e, but not by huge amounts, at least not in the moment to moment gameplay. If something more rules-lite than D&D is your thing, I've heard good things about Savage Worlds, 13th Age, as well as the Basic Fantasy RPG

[@maxducoudray]

@@IcarusGames Yeah, I’ve been role-playing since 1979. I’ve tried a lot of crunchier RPGs, but have settled closer to OSR style. Everything D&D since 3E has been too much of a wargame for my preferences. I’d rather play a computer game to get that form of combat.

[@iratevagabond204]

Should try Hackmaster 5e!

[@DeusMachina71]

I don't think it is better than D&D 5e, in fact it manages to do some things better while committing new design and system sins along the way.. in short its a slog and I'm not a big fan of it though I'm not intrinsically opposed to Piazo it's just too much book spam and unnecessary system bloat for me. B/X and OSR D&D are not only better than 5e D&D it's the only versions that are really authentic or adjacently close to the original spirit of Gygax/Arenson original vision for Dungeons and Dragons and not simply a shoddy Corperate product with the branding icon slapped on. B/X simplicity and modularity which makes it incredibly easy to skin new rules on the skeleton while various OSR games streamline and clean up the rules organization make it the best edition of D&D in my opinion.

[@jedbex7070]

So as someone who’s coming from D&D I love everything so far about Pathfinder. Except for the art. I don’t know why either. I just don’t like it. If anyone could help me appreciate it or learn to like the style I’m very open to changing. I want to like it but I don’t.

[@IcarusGames]

Wayne Reynolds, who is one of the principle artists for Pathfinder, has a very styalized look that definitely isn't for everyone. But a lot of the interior art and monster art is done by other artists in a style you are probably more familiar with.

[@mj1mj3]

What do you mean first game? Are you saying you've been making "comparisons" without actually having played the actual game?

[@IcarusGames]

Yep. I've been reading through the rules and comparing things as I go for the last few months. But I have played PF1 for years, as well as multiple editions of D&D and several other systems so a lot of the core gameplay loop is super familiar to me.

[@aebonstudio7193]

I just wish people would realize the genius that is Pathfinder 1E. It's literally the best of all systems thus far.

[@evilDMguy]

I agree. What gets to me is the kudos for the three action system that was first in PF1 Unchained. I use it in my PF1 games and have for years.

[@gbcamburnii4697]

I absolutely *LOVED* The old D&D 3.0 - 3.5 (or PF1e), but it was a monster. Near the end of a campaign, player characters could feasibly wind up with ridiculous stats like 97 AC. It has a large amount of spells that are either "Save or Suck," or they are completely useless except in the most niche of circumstances (and in those cases, usually, nothing else will do). These are drawbacks to the OGL D20 system that have been in place since the release of 3.0. Pathfinder 2e fixes all of that with the action economy and variable successes on spells. And it does it with such elegance and grace that you almost can't even realize the problems have been fixed until you play a good ways into a campaign. That's not to say that PF2e doesn't have some of the same issues with the proficiency system, but I find that system much easier to "quick calculate" as a Game Master than the previous editions.

[@IcarusGames]

I loved PF1. I ran a level 1-20 campaign in PF1 and had an absolute blast. The unchained stuff was good, but a bit inconsistent if I remember rightly. PF2 gives me the choice and mechanical depth I loved in PF1, but with tighter underlying math.

[@joshuawong5839]

I think my issue with Pathfinder 1e is that very often, the advocates for PF1e aren't really advocating for PF1e, they're advocating for a homebrew version of PF1e that has elements handwaved away. Encumbrance and weight. Actually considering the size limitations of a Bag of Holding (or Handy Haversack). Elephant in the Room feat taxes. Animal Companions learning Tricks. Underwater Combat rules. Or the use of Spheres of Power and other 3rd-party content. So, it becomes a comparison of apples to Ferraris -- what version of PF1e are you comparing PF2e to? (And similarly with D&D5e... what GM's homebrew version of 5e are you comparing PF2e or PF1e to?)

[@ChezDispenser]

I'd have an easier time running PF1e if I didn't have to have a running, *multi-page* document of things that are banned at my tables because they border on third-party levels of broken.

[@snoochieboochies2011]

Are there any pros to dungeons and dragons that pathfinder does not have?

[@IcarusGames]

Definitely. It's easier to get someone who is brand new to TTRPGs into a game of 5e than a game of PF2 because there's less choice points, and the mechanics are simpler, which makes them easier to pick up and go.